Author Topic: New tools for 2019 including CTM Midi and Kapex updates among others (Read 101777 times)

Peter Halle · « **Reply #180 on:** January 06, 2019, 05:53 PM »

Please note that this is purely speculation on my part. I have no knowledge of Festool plans or marketing direction.

I can see that the legal system in North America will force global manufacturers to in the future build initially to that standard and then either offer those products as-is to other worldwide markets or else subtract some components where they feel the additional "benefit" will be not accepted.

I can't foresee a mid size tool company like Festool tying up production resources to do other. After all their parent company holds the patents and licensing now becomes a matter of switching money from one pocket to another per say. A safer tool in any country will be more readily accepted than a less safe.

Of course I might be crazy.

Peter

TinyShop · « **Reply #181 on:** January 06, 2019, 06:00 PM »

Quote from: Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits on January 06, 2019, 03:17 PM

Looks like a nice saw, can't help but think it would not steer me off from the pull saws considering the small-ish table.
Probably too expensive to justify as an on site saw - probably some weight penalty too - and I would probably gasp at the price with the much needed add ons to even bring it close to the convenience of a good sturdy table saw for stationary use.

I applaud the effort, it will appeal to some I guess. Blade is 10" and 254mm - hopefully not a proprietary hole mount.

It looks like the CS70 parallel fence on the video - which would make sense. Not sure if the table looks wider than the CS70? That would mean no compatibility with the CS70 VL due to width but the VB table should fit since the LA fence fits...

I think we can all agree that the TS 80 uses either the same "chassis" (what I'm calling that which is comprised of two "portals" as Festool calls them - the cast alloy sets of two stubby legs - and two "side walls" (which connect the two sets of stubby legs together to make a four legged frame) common to the CS 70 and CS 50 or that of the CMS and that, therefore, all of the relevant accessories will be compatible. This is simply a case of a company taking something that already exists - a four legged "chassis" - and fitting a new part to it in order to make a new product (in this case, a table saw with a SawStop or SawStop-inspired arbor assembly). Not rocket science.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #182 on:** January 06, 2019, 11:02 PM »

Quote from: Peter Halle on January 06, 2019, 05:53 PM

Please note that this is purely speculation on my part. I have no knowledge of Festool plans or marketing direction.

I can see that the legal system in North America will force global manufacturers to in the future build initially to that standard and then either offer those products as-is to other worldwide markets or else subtract some components where they feel the additional "benefit" will be not accepted.

I can't foresee a mid size tool company like Festool tying up production resources to do other. After all their parent company holds the patents and licensing now becomes a matter of switching money from one pocket to another per say. A safer tool in any country will be more readily accepted than a less safe.

Of course I might be crazy.

Peter

Where problems get real tricky is when "safety" conflicts from country to country. This happens. Car industry faces this where you can't do lowest/highest common denominator of design as sometimes the requirements of different countries conflict as they either just don't have a common design space, or the countries view the safe design different. As a result companies have to do multiple design, and re-certify. This is slowly becoming less the case, but still comes up. From looking in the past, table saws have some of this. The US (and I assume Canada) have a different idea on how to make tools safe from the Europeans. You can't make the same same saw work in both places. I think this is what leads to the CMS saw modules not being in the US. As there would be no anti kickback dogs when using a TS . In general I think the EU has better idea on safety on tables saws. I don't see the US changing.

Also just picture the moaning from people if hot dog protection what mandated. People would moan of big government, freedom, say they are going to stock pile old saws and so forth. No different than we have seen with lightbulbs, furnaces, wood stoves, fuel cans and so forth.

Gregor · « **Reply #183 on:** January 07, 2019, 09:47 AM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 06, 2019, 11:02 PM

I think this is what leads to the CMS saw modules not being in the US. As there would be no anti kickback dogs when using a TS

Which would be stupid easy to add through a slightly changed holder for the dust shroud, or am I wrong with that?

Cheese · « **Reply #184 on:** January 07, 2019, 10:26 AM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 06, 2019, 11:02 PM

People would moan of big government, freedom, say they are going to stock pile old saws and so forth. No different than we have seen with lightbulbs, furnaces, wood stoves, fuel cans and so forth.

Once the lightbulb announcement was made, my neighbor, who owns several large apartment buildings, went out and purchased cases & cases & cases of incandescent light bulbs.

He recently asked me to do a quick cost analysis for him and I determined that if he were to substitute LED light bulbs, he would save in a year, just in electricity costs, what he spent on the incandescent lightbulbs.

Not to mention what he saves in not replacing a light bulb every 3000-4000 hours.

Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits · « **Reply #185 on:** January 07, 2019, 03:42 PM »

Quote from: TinyShop on January 06, 2019, 06:00 PM

Quote from: Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits on January 06, 2019, 03:17 PM
Looks like a nice saw, can't help but think it would not steer me off from the pull saws considering the small-ish table.
Probably too expensive to justify as an on site saw - probably some weight penalty too - and I would probably gasp at the price with the much needed add ons to even bring it close to the convenience of a good sturdy table saw for stationary use.

I applaud the effort, it will appeal to some I guess. Blade is 10" and 254mm - hopefully not a proprietary hole mount.

It looks like the CS70 parallel fence on the video - which would make sense. Not sure if the table looks wider than the CS70? That would mean no compatibility with the CS70 VL due to width but the VB table should fit since the LA fence fits...

I think we can all agree that the TS 80 uses either the same "chassis" (what I'm calling that which is comprised of two "portals" as Festool calls them - the cast alloy sets of two stubby legs - and two "side walls" (which connect the two sets of stubby legs together to make a four legged frame) common to the CS 70 and CS 50 or that of the CMS and that, therefore, all of the relevant accessories will be compatible. This is simply a case of a company taking something that already exists - a four legged "chassis" - and fitting a new part to it in order to make a new product (in this case, a table saw with a SawStop or SawStop-inspired arbor assembly). Not rocket science.

I do agree.

I think the concept is good and obviously Festool sees a market to cater for with the TKS. I personally think it will be way overpriced and less interesting than the CS70EB pull saw or the Mafell Erika 85EC - for my purposes.

Festool does not need my approval or disapproval.

The Precisio saws add some value with their versatility, that's what sold me on those saw systems. Agile and fairly accurate - with the usual caveats for portable light weight saws.

Except for the safety feature of the TKS 80 which I don't fancy paying extra for - it is still "just" a semi portable 10" table saw and handling of sheet goods will never be as comfortable or accurate as with a larger saw. Seen a fair share of both Erikas and Precisios with sheet goods being rammed through them with less than stellar precision... ...sometimes user error, sometimes lack of handling ergonomics that are present on small, light weight saws which does prevent them from being suitable for accurate/repeat processing of nominal sized sheet goods.

I am not sure the new Festool will even top any of the DeWalt / Metabo / Bosch etc for handling sheet goods. I am sure the build will be excellent though!

Still, when I see one in the flesh I might fall in love with it and actually get one - I am not ruling that out. Working on outfitting a new shop this year with some colleagues and we will have at least one smaller table saw in the shop, at the moment it is the Erika 60, the big dawg in the shop is a huge digital Felder with 3200mm sliding table weighing in around... ...850-900kg?

DeformedTree · « **Reply #186 on:** January 07, 2019, 07:28 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on January 07, 2019, 10:26 AM

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 06, 2019, 11:02 PM
People would moan of big government, freedom, say they are going to stock pile old saws and so forth. No different than we have seen with lightbulbs, furnaces, wood stoves, fuel cans and so forth.

Once the lightbulb announcement was made, my neighbor, who owns several large apartment buildings, went out and purchased cases & cases & cases of incandescent light bulbs.

He recently asked me to do a quick cost analysis for him and I determined that if he were to substitute LED light bulbs, he would save in a year, just in electricity costs, what he spent on the incandescent lightbulbs.

Not to mention what he saves in not replacing a light bulb every 3000-4000 hours.

yup. This is why more and more groups have learned, don't pitch something as "environmental" instead pitch it as "cost savings", as there is a large subset of the population who will purposely do the opposite of something if it is pitched as good for the environment. Similar mindsets exist for safety.

Of course now they have done studies that showed groups like cities didn't use the cost savings from LED as savings or put the funds elsewhere, they just used it to buy and install more lights, now light pollution is worse than ever.

Safety features tend to have a cost, and often some level of PITA to them. GFCI/AFCI tech is an example. Most appreciate not being electrocuted or have their house burn to the ground due to bad wiring or putting a nail in a wire hanging a painting. Yes, they cost more money, and they do false trip at times. This fuels people to be anti them. And just gives fuels to builder groups to get them removed from code claiming the "cost" to consumers. So it becomes a bad downward spiral. In the end, if everyone has to put them in, no builder is at a cost dis-advantage to the next buider, and the cost issue isn't because the tech exist or is required, the issue is those making the rules didn't mandate standardization/interchangeability of breakers at the same time. If you could mix and match brands of breakers that 45 dollar AFCI would be way cheaper in a hurry as people just put an "breaker king brand: arc-master" breaker in instead of a Name brand that matches the brand of the panel in the house.

Making sure when things like some sort of new tech or safety device is mandated that standardization/interchangeability is mandated with it solves a lot of these issues. This is the key. If you saw "saw stop" is mandated, you have an issue. If you say "saws must stop/or remove blade from path of flesh within 1 nano-second of detection and be fully reset able without replacement of parts" you will have solutions produced with little issue. And manufactures would probably jointly share the development cost to just get it done and move on.

AndrewG · « **Reply #187 on:** January 08, 2019, 08:27 AM »

Just wondering if the 18V impact driver has been confirmed? And if so, when we might get some more information. Thanks

Gregor · « **Reply #188 on:** January 08, 2019, 09:33 AM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 07, 2019, 07:28 PM

Making sure when things like some sort of new tech or safety device is mandated that standardization/interchangeability is mandated with it solves a lot of these issues. This is the key. If you saw "saw stop" is mandated, you have an issue. If you say "saws must stop/or remove blade from path of flesh within 1 nano-second of detection and be fully reset able without replacement of parts" you will have solutions produced with little issue. And manufactures would probably jointly share the development cost to just get it done and move on.

I fully agree to this. While saw stop is a step into the right direction it would be better if the feature would be destruction free to both limbs and the saw.
The reasoning behind that is simple: the knowledge that tripping the feature equals to this days pay (or more) being gone (plus having to carry spares for the blade and mechanism) gives incentive to employ the 'cost saving' method of disabling the mechanism... which completely defeats the whole idea.

GarryMartin · « **Reply #189 on:** January 08, 2019, 09:45 AM »

Quote from: AndrewG on January 08, 2019, 08:27 AM

Just wondering if the 18V impact driver has been confirmed? And if so, when we might get some more information. Thanks

It's confirmed (by virtue of appearing in a product list) but no news on availability or specifications yet.

Cheese · « **Reply #190 on:** January 08, 2019, 10:50 AM »

Quote from: Gregor on January 08, 2019, 09:33 AM

I fully agree to this. While saw stop is a step into the right direction it would be better if the feature would be destruction free to both limbs and the saw.
The reasoning behind that is simple: the knowledge that tripping the feature equals to this days pay (or more) being gone (plus having to carry spares for the blade and mechanism) gives incentive to employ the 'cost saving' method of disabling the mechanism... which completely defeats the whole idea.

That's the reason the Reaxx is so nice...

Bosch really did build a better mousetrap as far as blade safety is concerned.

Instead of costing $250 per event it's only $50 per event.

JimH2 · « **Reply #191 on:** January 08, 2019, 02:17 PM »

Quote from: Gregor on January 08, 2019, 09:33 AM

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 07, 2019, 07:28 PM
Making sure when things like some sort of new tech or safety device is mandated that standardization/interchangeability is mandated with it solves a lot of these issues. This is the key. If you saw "saw stop" is mandated, you have an issue. If you say "saws must stop/or remove blade from path of flesh within 1 nano-second of detection and be fully reset able without replacement of parts" you will have solutions produced with little issue. And manufactures would probably jointly share the development cost to just get it done and move on.
I fully agree to this. While saw stop is a step into the right direction it would be better if the feature would be destruction free to both limbs and the saw.
The reasoning behind that is simple: the knowledge that tripping the feature equals to this days pay (or more) being gone (plus having to carry spares for the blade and mechanism) gives incentive to employ the 'cost saving' method of disabling the mechanism... which completely defeats the whole idea.

Whenever the safety brake is tripped you need to stand down for the rest of the day and let someone else use the tablesaw. It would be great if the blade was not damaged, but I could care less since I still would have my fingers. I have just about 30 years of experience on a tablesaw and have only had one incident which was on my SawStop after having owned it for a little over 8 years. I did not have a spare brake, but I do have a blade. I chose to stand down and get other work done while awaiting a new brake. SawStop sent me a free in exchange for the photo of the save, which was a nickel width groove a little less than an 1/8" deep. Healed up quickly.

I'll challenge you on manufacturer's stepping up to invent technology that will make their product cost significantly more with the exception of SawStop who chose to compete at the top of chain. Bosch was late to the game because they saw money to be made, potential for future legislation mandating it and/or reduction in liability (personal responsibility seems to be getting less and less). I have not used the Bosch, but have seen it. SawStop has a proven track record and has more backing for future developments now that TTS owns them. Bosch has much deeper pockets and will probably beat them to the punch in terms of miniaturization and application to portable tools.

cpw · « **Reply #192 on:** January 08, 2019, 02:39 PM »

I've had a Sawstop for about 8 years, no brake activations [either fingers or other mistakes]. If you're saving a finger, then it is fine to have $250 for a blade + cartridge and losing time (much less time than an amputation).

I think the bigger difference with the destructive nature of the Sawstop vs. Reaxx is about false trips (because of a miter gauge or whatever) costing $250 instead of $50.

RKA · « **Reply #193 on:** January 08, 2019, 07:31 PM »

The whole table moves when the blade killer activates.

Peter Halle · « **Reply #194 on:** January 08, 2019, 07:38 PM »

Are you talking about the jerking? If so, I would expect that based on the portability and hopefully lack of weight. And physics.

Peter

ChuckM · « **Reply #195 on:** January 08, 2019, 08:53 PM »

Quote from: Gregor on January 08, 2019, 09:33 AM

I fully agree to this. While saw stop is a step into the right direction it would be better if the feature would be destruction free to both limbs and the saw.
The reasoning behind that is simple: the knowledge that tripping the feature equals to this days pay (or more) being gone (plus having to carry spares for the blade and mechanism) gives incentive to employ the 'cost saving' method of disabling the mechanism... which completely defeats the whole idea.

I have yet to come across any SawStop owners who disable their finger-saving technology in order to save costs. To disable the safety feature to cut metals or wet wood, yes, but to do so to avoid triggering the safety technology in a normal operaton is news to me. A better way to save costs is to sell the SawStop and get any other cabinet saw.

If someone is an employee and disables the safety feature (for not activating the SawStop and not for cutting wet wood or metal) without management approval, they could be violating their company safety policy or regulations that could lead to disciplinary measures including termination. I know at least one woodworking company that clearly states that failure to comply with the company safety regulations is a valid cause for instant dismissal.

I started using the SawStop around 2006 and have become an owner myself since 2014. I have not had one single close or remote call with any tablesaw during my whole hobby life of woodworking that began in the 90s. I am planning to keep that track record till the end.

Now, I hope Festool will develop the SawStop technology for its Kapex one day.

ChuckM · « **Reply #196 on:** January 08, 2019, 09:03 PM »

Quote from: RKA on January 08, 2019, 07:31 PM

Snip.
The whole table moves when the blade killer activates.

That was impressive compared to the 450 - 600 pound SawStop cabinet saws.

RKA · « **Reply #197 on:** January 08, 2019, 09:07 PM »

Quote from: Peter Halle on January 08, 2019, 07:38 PM

Are you talking about the jerking? If so, I would expect that based on the portability and hopefully lack of weight. And physics.

Peter

Yes and yes. That’s a lot of momentum to stop.

ChuckM · « **Reply #198 on:** January 08, 2019, 09:09 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on January 08, 2019, 10:50 AM

Snip.
That's the reason the Reaxx is so nice... Bosch really did build a better mousetrap as far as blade safety is concerned.

Instead of costing $250 per event it's only $50 per event.

From a half-glass full perspective: the much higher activation expense should encourage a SawStop owner or user (if pay is to be deduced) to be even more vigilant when using the saw. I have a woodworker II in my saw, and I would be very upset with myself if I ruined it due to any unsafe or careless operation I do.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #199 on:** January 08, 2019, 11:16 PM »

Quote from: ChuckM on January 08, 2019, 08:53 PM

Quote from: Gregor on January 08, 2019, 09:33 AM

I fully agree to this. While saw stop is a step into the right direction it would be better if the feature would be destruction free to both limbs and the saw.
The reasoning behind that is simple: the knowledge that tripping the feature equals to this days pay (or more) being gone (plus having to carry spares for the blade and mechanism) gives incentive to employ the 'cost saving' method of disabling the mechanism... which completely defeats the whole idea.

I have yet to come across any SawStop owners who disable their finger-saving technology in order to save costs. To disable the safety feature to cut metals or wet wood, yes, but to do so to avoid triggering the safety technology in a normal operaton is news to me. A better way to save costs is to sell the SawStop and get any other cabinet saw.

If someone is an employee and disables the safety feature (for not activating the SawStop and not for cutting wet wood or metal) without management approval, they could be violating their company safety policy or regulations that could lead to disciplinary measures including termination. I know at least one woodworking company that clearly states that failure to comply with the company safety regulations is a valid cause for instant dismissal.

I started using the SawStop around 2006 and have become an owner myself since 2014. I have not had one single close or remote call with any tablesaw during my whole hobby life of woodworking that began in the 90s. I am planning to keep that track record till the end.

Now, I hope Festool will develop the SawStop technology for its Kapex one day.

I think you missed some context, this was in the context of if "hot dog protection" was mandated on all saws. You have no choice but to buy a saw with it. In that situation people will certainly keep it off all the time. No different than clamping lawn mower engine stops, latching seat belts and sitting on them, pulling fuses on airbags, oversizing fuses in electric panel, etc.

Also it's not that people don't appreciate spending 250bucks to no loose a finger. If it goes off when it was needed, that's great and people will be glad it did. But when it goes off when it shouldn't, that becomes a big issue. When people get concerned of a false trip so they turn it off for a lot of situation that it will be fine now it's becomes in-effective. And sadly a not that small sub-set of the population purposely defeats safety features simply because they are anti-safety features.

People want such a safety system, they also don't want to be out a lot of money when it goes off un-needed. This is the heart of why ever manufacture hasn't gone with such a system without being forced too by law. They don't want to loose sales and have them go to vendors without it because folks decide they are safe users and do not want a false trip. It's often bad business to be an odd ball even if realistically what you offer is better. Back to cars, no basic family hauler needs over 150hp. Yet now most cars are well over 200 and large number of them into 300hp. Car makes could make a high mileage car simply by dropping a cheap, solid, well made 120hp engine in a car. It would be great for folks. It would also tank massively on the market because all the cars it competes with are 240hp and no one wants to buy the "under powered" car. Sure, there will be a subset that will buy the car because of what it is, maybe even pay more for it. But just like "saw stop" type saws, while there is a market for them for some, it's also something that possibly the majority of the population would refuse to buy, cost be damned, they don't want it.

ChuckM · « **Reply #200 on:** January 08, 2019, 11:29 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 08, 2019, 11:16 PM

Snip.

I think you missed some context, this was in the context of if "hot dog protection" was mandated on all saws.

Guilty as charged. I did not go further up the chain of conversation.

simonh · « **Reply #201 on:** January 09, 2019, 05:53 AM »

New Kapex KS 120 REB video

tobiaskurz · « **Reply #202 on:** January 09, 2019, 11:37 AM »

I found pictures from the new OSC 18 wich seems to be available from April (in Germany).

New tools for 2019 including CTM Midi and Kapex updates among others

The second picture shows a new dust shroud for over head work.

ben_r_ · « **Reply #203 on:** January 09, 2019, 11:46 AM »

Its too bad they didnt buy the Bosch system as the ability to retract the blade twice per cartridge AND not damage the blade at all is a much better option.

Gregor · « **Reply #204 on:** January 09, 2019, 12:09 PM »

Quote from: simonh on January 09, 2019, 05:53 AM

New Kapex KS 120 REB video

Nice how quiet they managed to make it.

Quote from: tobiaskurz on January 09, 2019, 11:37 AM

I found pictures from the new OSC 18 wich seems to be available from April (in Germany).

Having been that secretive about new stuff lead to one less sale, now that I have one from the competition I don't need theirs.

French_Fan · « **Reply #205 on:** January 09, 2019, 02:10 PM »

Quote from: tobiaskurz on January 09, 2019, 11:37 AM

I found pictures from the new OSC 18 wich seems to be available from April (in Germany).

(Attachment Link)
The second picture shows a new dust shroud for over head work.
(Attachment Link)

Hey! But you're really too good at it! How did you find it? And most importantly... where did you find it?

?

mal_lynam · « **Reply #206 on:** January 09, 2019, 04:48 PM »

Oh thank god, there using that still of battery.

Sent from my Phone using Tapatalk

ART at WORK · « **Reply #207 on:** January 13, 2019, 06:52 AM »

Hi,
I just got a Festool newsletter saying they will be presenting the new SawStop table saw at a trade fair in Munich starting tomorrow (14.01.)

So maybe we get to see some videos of the machine in action soon. And when it will be available and the price. Or it's just another teaser.

Pip

JD2720 · « **Reply #208 on:** January 13, 2019, 08:04 AM »

Quote from: tobiaskurz on January 09, 2019, 11:37 AM

I found pictures from the new OSC 18 wich seems to be available from April (in Germany).

(Attachment Link)
The second picture shows a new dust shroud for over head work.
(Attachment Link)

I was looking forward to the cordless model, but I see they have gone to the Starlock blade attachment. I will stick with my Vecturo.

Gregor · « **Reply #209 on:** January 13, 2019, 01:32 PM »

Quote from: JD2720 on January 13, 2019, 08:04 AM

I was looking forward to the cordless model, but I see they have gone to the Starlock blade attachment. I will stick with my Vecturo.

What's your issue with starlock?