Author Topic: A dilly of a pickle, help me decide? (Read 4970 times)

craigsalisbury75 · « **on:** October 09, 2022, 10:05 AM »

First off, im a hobbyist so all my gear is used in the garage and not transported (if that makes any difference).

im torn between upgrading my mitre saw or my CT Midi 1st gen.

I bought a Makita LS1019L mitre saw knowing full well i should have bought the Kapex 120, but just couldnt justify it at the time and regretted it ever since, not that theres anything wrong with the makita, its just not as accurate as it should be regardless of how many times i attempt to calibrate it.

I also have a CT midi 1, which feels like its lost some power over the last 5 years, although it has a new bag and filter.

So 2 questions really, do i go for the Kapex 120 or a new CTL/M ?

If its the CT then ill definitely be adding the separator and BT module, but then wonder if i got CTL or CTM, 26 or 36? Are there any benefits to the CTM E AC 36 over say a CTM26 with separator? its not like ill be sanding plaster or concrete or anything.

And the real question is, should i hold off on an extractor as they seem to be getting refreshed? could we also see a Kapex 120 refresh in the near future?

Cheers!

Birdhunter · « **Reply #1 on:** October 09, 2022, 10:24 AM »

My opinion…. A vac is just a vac, but a Kapex is an incredible saw. Not perfect, but very close.

MikeGE · « **Reply #2 on:** October 09, 2022, 10:41 AM »

Quote from: craigsalisbury75 on October 09, 2022, 10:05 AM

So 2 questions really, do i go for the Kapex 120 or a new CTL/M ?

If its the CT then ill definitely be adding the separator and BT module, but then wonder if i got CTL or CTM, 26 or 36? Are there any benefits to the CTM E AC 36 over say a CTM26 with separator? its not like ill be sanding plaster or concrete or anything.

And the real question is, should i hold off on an extractor as they seem to be getting refreshed? could we also see a Kapex 120 refresh in the near future?

If the question is a new saw or a new vacuum, the CTLxx will not improve the accuracy of your Makita. Will a Kapex KS 60 meet your hobbyist requirements, or do you need the KS 120?

If you are going to eventually add a cyclone/separator, I would buy the CTL 26. I have a CTL 26 and the Oneida Ultimate Dust Deputy, and have not needed to change the CTL bag in two years. I think a smaller vacuum would also work if it can match the performance of the CTL 26.

With regards to waiting for a CTL or KS refresh, you can't cut today's wood with tomorrow's saw. When I was an avid photographer, some of my friends seem to be constantly holding off buying a new camera while waiting for the next version to be released.

ChuckS · « **Reply #3 on:** October 09, 2022, 10:43 AM »

The current Kapex REB model is just a few years old. If I were you and didn't already have a Domino machine, I'd get a DF500 instead of a CT or Kapex to expand my tool capability.

craigsalisbury75 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 09, 2022, 10:46 AM »

Quote from: ChuckS on October 09, 2022, 10:43 AM

The current Kapex REB model is just a few years old. If I were you and didn't already have a Domino machine, I'd get a DF500 instead of a CT or Kapex to expand my tool capability.

alas, i have a df500 and df700. im guessing the ks120 was refreshed in 2019

craigsalisbury75 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 09, 2022, 10:55 AM »

Quote from: MikeGE on October 09, 2022, 10:41 AM

Quote from: craigsalisbury75 on October 09, 2022, 10:05 AM
So 2 questions really, do i go for the Kapex 120 or a new CTL/M ?

If its the CT then ill definitely be adding the separator and BT module, but then wonder if i got CTL or CTM, 26 or 36? Are there any benefits to the CTM E AC 36 over say a CTM26 with separator? its not like ill be sanding plaster or concrete or anything.

And the real question is, should i hold off on an extractor as they seem to be getting refreshed? could we also see a Kapex 120 refresh in the near future?

If the question is a new saw or a new vacuum, the CTLxx will not improve the accuracy of your Makita. Will a Kapex KS 60 meet your hobbyist requirements, or do you need the KS 120?

If you are going to eventually add a cyclone/separator, I would buy the CTL 26. I have a CTL 26 and the Oneida Ultimate Dust Deputy, and have not needed to change the CTL bag in two years. I think a smaller vacuum would also work if it can match the performance of the CTL 26.

With regards to waiting for a CTL or KS refresh, you can't cut today's wood with tomorrow's saw. When I was an avid photographer, some of my friends seem to be constantly holding off buying a new camera while waiting for the next version to be released.

yeah i was looking at a CTM E AC 36, but ill be buying the sys separator and BT module with it, so im not sure if its worth the extra cash if i wont really be using the bag or auto clean function. maybe the ctl26 is the way to go instead of the ctm26.

im not normally one for holding out, but theres nothing worse than biting the bullet for 2 weeks later the new shiny comes out, especially as the smaller vacs have all just been updated.

luckily i have no immediate projects going on so im in no rush to decide.

edit, unfortunately the 60 isnt big enough as i can often break down bigger boards

Peter Kelly · « **Reply #6 on:** October 09, 2022, 11:27 AM »

Mitre trimmer if you're looking for accuracy. https://www.axminstertools.com/axcaliber-mt1-mitre-trimmer-951813

woodbutcherbower · « **Reply #7 on:** October 09, 2022, 01:24 PM »

CTL26 + CT-VA-20. This combo works exceptionally well, and as a hobbyist, you'd probably be looking at many months or even years between bag changes. It's unbelievable just how much material the cyclone collects, especially when you're routing or planing, generating large volumes of chips and shavings.

You don't need an M-class vacuum unless you're doing site work (it's mandatory in the UK) or unless you're constantly sucking up mineral dust. M-Class and L-Class are identical in terms of filtration - the only difference is that M-Class machines have an audible alarm to warn the user when the filter is clogged. Which yours never will be. You also won't need the AC function, so save your ££££££.

Although I have nothing whatsoever against the Kapex and it has many ardent fans on here, it also seems to be a regular feature in a great many forum threads relating to its lack of reliability. I'm quite sure these Kapex owners will correct my misconception if I'm wrong. But as ever - almost everyone on here will give you their honest opinion based on their personal experience. Ultimately - it's your hard-earned money, so only you can decide which advice best suits your particular needs.

Hope you get fixed up, and that your eventual choice hits the spot for you.
Kevin

Holzhacker · « **Reply #8 on:** October 09, 2022, 02:16 PM »

Buy the Kapex if you have the dough. The Kapex will make your work cleaner and more reliable.
You can always get another vac on sale or on recon easier at some point. While I currently only have 3 festool vacs, have had up to 5, strictly for shop use, i.e. no job site travel consider looking into a Fein turbo II. They go on sale a little more often. I think they are currently on sale at tool nut.

MikeGE · « **Reply #9 on:** October 09, 2022, 03:02 PM »

Quote from: woodbutcherbower on October 09, 2022, 01:24 PM

But as ever - almost everyone on here will give you their honest opinion based on their personal experience. Ultimately - it's your hard-earned money, so only you can decide which advice best suits your particular needs.

Good point that I forgot to mention. If my shop was in a garage, my miter saw would be a DeWalt DWS780 without hesitation. I used to own the DWS780 and think it was just as accurate as the Kapex, and it had a larger blade. However, since my shop is in a fully enclosed basement that shares the air with the rest of the house, I needed something a bit more dust friendly.

craigsalisbury75 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 09, 2022, 03:54 PM »

Quote from: woodbutcherbower on October 09, 2022, 01:24 PM

CTL26 + CT-VA-20. This combo works exceptionally well, and as a hobbyist, you'd probably be looking at many months or even years between bag changes. It's unbelievable just how much material the cyclone collects, especially when you're routing or planing, generating large volumes of chips and shavings.

You don't need an M-class vacuum unless you're doing site work (it's mandatory in the UK) or unless you're constantly sucking up mineral dust. M-Class and L-Class are identical in terms of filtration - the only difference is that M-Class machines have an audible alarm to warn the user when the filter is clogged. Which yours never will be. You also won't need the AC function, so save your ££££££.

Although I have nothing whatsoever against the Kapex and it has many ardent fans on here, it also seems to be a regular feature in a great many forum threads relating to its lack of reliability. I'm quite sure these Kapex owners will correct my misconception if I'm wrong. But as ever - almost everyone on here will give you their honest opinion based on their personal experience. Ultimately - it's your hard-earned money, so only you can decide which advice best suits your particular needs.

Hope you get fixed up, and that your eventual choice hits the spot for you.
Kevin

Thanks for your input, I am indeed swaying towards the CTL 26 + CT-VA-20+BT control. I agree theres no point paying for options i wont see benefit of and i can get the whole package for the cost of the CTM AC 36!

That being said, im debating going for this kapex this time, then flogging the Makita LS1019L and Midi 1 and im over halfway towards the CTL gear. just not sure whether to hold out for black friday as there never seems to be much off Festool in the UK.

As for Kapex reliability, im counting on Festool service, at least its covered for 3 years, and after that they offer great paid service which i used for a TS55, so im not that bothered about that, also its not going to get hammered daily.

craigsalisbury75 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 09, 2022, 03:57 PM »

Quote from: Holzhacker on October 09, 2022, 02:16 PM

Buy the Kapex if you have the dough. The Kapex will make your work cleaner and more reliable.
You can always get another vac on sale or on recon easier at some point. While I currently only have 3 festool vacs, have had up to 5, strictly for shop use, i.e. no job site travel consider looking into a Fein turbo II. They go on sale a little more often. I think they are currently on sale at tool nut.

most i've had is a free battery on an 18v tool, but very much swaying towards the Kapex, apart from the midi, i just have a numatic nvd750 and a 5" jobby for the bandsaw and planer/thicknesser (jointer and planer). both the nvd and midi 1 will get sold.

craigsalisbury75 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 09, 2022, 03:59 PM »

Quote from: MikeGE on October 09, 2022, 03:02 PM

Quote from: woodbutcherbower on October 09, 2022, 01:24 PM
But as ever - almost everyone on here will give you their honest opinion based on their personal experience. Ultimately - it's your hard-earned money, so only you can decide which advice best suits your particular needs.

Good point that I forgot to mention. If my shop was in a garage, my miter saw would be a DeWalt DWS780 without hesitation. I used to own the DWS780 and think it was just as accurate as the Kapex, and it had a larger blade. However, since my shop is in a fully enclosed basement that shares the air with the rest of the house, I needed something a bit more dust friendly.

for me, every other festool product I have operates flawlessly, I tried the Makita and its a decent machine, but its not a Kapex, its kind of better the devil you know rather than trying different brands

woodbutcherbower · « **Reply #13 on:** October 09, 2022, 06:17 PM »

So reading between the lines - it seems that your mind is made up @craigsalisbury75. Kapex + CTL26 + CT-VA-20. I don’t think there are many forum members who would tell you that you’ve made a bad decision. It sounds like a cliché I know - but you’re only going to do this once. So do it right the first time.

Enjoy.

Edit = sorry to be spending more of your money, but the 36mm hose is a significant and hugely worthwhile upgrade which will yield enhanced performance results across all of your equipment. Apologies.

ChuckS · « **Reply #14 on:** October 09, 2022, 06:51 PM »

Quote from: craigsalisbury75 on October 09, 2022, 03:54 PM

Snip.
As for Kapex reliability, im counting on Festool service, at least its covered for 3 years, and after that they offer great paid service which i used for a TS55, so im not that bothered about that, also its not going to get hammered daily.

If you're referring to the motor issue that some had had with their Kapex, you might be glad to hear that since the new motor came out (to the REB model), we haven't heard people reporting their motors smoking.

Not too long ago, someone came to this forum asking about Kapex repair costs. But was the old motor in the EB model really a problem in reality?

NO according to someone I know who processed all kinds of Festool repairs at the dealership, and shipped them to Festool (the dealership is one of the largest in the country). I also know of no one who owns an EB Kapex and has had a smoking motor ever -- all our EBs are 5 to 8 years old now.

If my memory is correct, I have not come across more than a dozen of users who said they had a motor smoking in this forum. Still, it's a good thing that Festool released a new motor, regardless of whether it was a real or perceived problem.

xedos · « **Reply #15 on:** October 09, 2022, 08:46 PM »

Quote from: ChuckS on October 09, 2022, 06:51 PM

Quote from: craigsalisbury75 on October 09, 2022, 03:54 PM
Snip.
As for Kapex reliability, im counting on Festool service, at least its covered for 3 years, and after that they offer great paid service which i used for a TS55, so im not that bothered about that, also its not going to get hammered daily.

If you're referring to the motor issue that some had had with their Kapex, you might be glad to hear that since the new motor came out (to the REB model), we haven't heard people reporting their motors smoking.

Not too long ago, someone came to this forum asking about Kapex repair costs. But was the old motor in the EB model really a problem in reality?

NO according to someone I know who processed all kinds of Festool repairs at the dealership, and shipped them to Festool (the dealership is one of the largest in the country). I also know of no one who owns an EB Kapex and has had a smoking motor ever -- all our EBs are 5 to 8 years old now.

If my memory is correct, I have not come across more than a dozen of users who said they had a motor smoking in this forum. Still, it's a good thing that Festool released a new motor, regardless of whether it was a real or perceived problem.

Why then ,Chuck, would festool have done a Kapex revision focusing almost entirely on the motor in the first place ?

Clearly there was a 110v motor issue. And more recently, I believe there was a recall / revision for UK market too.

And how bout FT’s response early on that Kapex was designed for cutting thick wood so you folks making quick cuts on thin / skinny material clearly were using the tool incorrectly?

Mini Me · « **Reply #16 on:** October 09, 2022, 08:50 PM »

I fail to see why any of the top brands should be less accurate than any other and Ryobi definitely is not a top brand IMHO. Makita, Bosch & Festool should be on par but I get that the Kapex has a suite of features that might make it a better user but not necessarily more accurate.

ChuckS · « **Reply #17 on:** October 09, 2022, 08:59 PM »

Quote from: xedos on October 09, 2022, 08:46 PM

Snip.

Why then ,Chuck, would festool have done a Kapex revision focusing almost entirely on the motor in the first place ?

Clearly there was a 110v motor issue. And more recently, I believe there was a recall / revision for UK market too.

And how bout FT’s response early on that Kapex was designed for cutting thick wood so you folks making quick cuts on thin / skinny material clearly were using the tool incorrectly?

The simple answer is that every sound manufacturer should have a system and process in place to review feedback from internal and external sources, and to improve their offers. Look at many versions of track saws Festool has come up with over time.

I'd be convinced if someone could tell me the total no. of Kapex with a smoking motor history over the total no. of Kapex sold, The person I mentioned above told me the Kapex repairs he processed (over some 8 to 10 years) due to smoking motors was negligible.

luvmytoolz · « **Reply #18 on:** October 09, 2022, 10:12 PM »

The only issue I was aware of with the early units in OZ anyway, was something to do with the metal linkage or retraction arm that would somehow twist or bend in some way. From memory they didn't recall but advised if anyone has the issue they'd replace that part. I don't recall ever hearing about anything motor related from Festool or anyone I know.

batmanimal · « **Reply #19 on:** October 10, 2022, 01:16 AM »

Kapex, no question

Not only is it more accurate, better dust collection (though you are still going to get a lot of dust, just much less than any other MS), it is just a joy to use (with the exception of having to remove the fence for bevel cut, but that was true of my dewalt too).

Oh it’s also way more compact and easy to store, if space is an issue.

craigsalisbury75 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 10, 2022, 01:37 AM »

Quote from: woodbutcherbower on October 09, 2022, 06:17 PM

So reading between the lines - it seems that your mind is made up @craigsalisbury75. Kapex + CTL26 + CT-VA-20. I don’t think there are many forum members who would tell you that you’ve made a bad decision. It sounds like a cliché I know - but you’re only going to do this once. So do it right the first time.

Enjoy.

Edit = sorry to be spending more of your money, but the 36mm hose is a significant and hugely worthwhile upgrade which will yield enhanced performance results across all of your equipment. Apologies.

Its certainly getting much clearer, 2 decisions really.

1) which to buy first, Kapex or CT
2) if i'm getting the ct-VA anyway, is it worth going M-class or AC

you helped the second decision, now im just thinking do the Kapex first as its a bigger chunk of change, sell the midi and Makita saw and have the CTL before santa drops

i was thinking about the 36 hose and was disappointed that none of the extractors bar the planex comes with a 36 AS host, but ill definitely get one for the OF22 and Kapex

woodbutcherbower · « **Reply #21 on:** October 10, 2022, 03:16 AM »

No point whatsoever in going M-class or AC - pls re-read my post above explaining why. I think that other contributors have eloquently expressed why getting the saw first is your best route.

Kevin

craigsalisbury75 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 10, 2022, 03:35 AM »

Quote from: woodbutcherbower on October 10, 2022, 03:16 AM

No point whatsoever in going M-class or AC - pls re-read my post above explaining why. I think that other contributors have eloquently expressed why getting the saw first is your best route.

Kevin

and i completely agree, apologies, i didnt make myself clearer in my earlier reply, the 2 decisions were what i was fighting with in my initial post, then since you mentioned the CTL i agrre thats the best solution. i plan to buy the kapex, then sell the midi and makita saw which should be halfway towards the CTL26 package.

squall_line · « **Reply #23 on:** October 10, 2022, 10:19 AM »

Quote from: Holzhacker on October 09, 2022, 02:16 PM

You can always get another vac on sale or on recon easier at some point. While I currently only have 3 festool vacs, have had up to 5, strictly for shop use, i.e. no job site travel consider looking into a Fein turbo II. They go on sale a little more often. I think they are currently on sale at tool nut.

Keep in mind that craigsalisbury75 is in the UK, so Recon and Tool Nut sales don't apply.

ChuckS · « **Reply #24 on:** October 10, 2022, 11:45 AM »

Quote from: batmanimal on October 10, 2022, 01:16 AM

Snip. (with the exception of having to remove the fence for bevel cut, but that was true of my dewalt too).
Snip.

The fence on the left side doesn't have to come off when making bevel cuts on the Kapex. If making the bevels on the right side, the fence, yes, needs to be slid out. Anyone know why they don't make the two fences identical?

DeejayK · « **Reply #25 on:** October 11, 2022, 01:22 PM »

Quote from: craigsalisbury75 on October 10, 2022, 03:35 AM

Quote from: woodbutcherbower on October 10, 2022, 03:16 AM
No point whatsoever in going M-class or AC - pls re-read my post above explaining why. I think that other contributors have eloquently expressed why getting the saw first is your best route.

Kevin

and i completely agree, apologies, i didnt make myself clearer in my earlier reply, the 2 decisions were what i was fighting with in my initial post, then since you mentioned the CTL i agrre thats the best solution. i plan to buy the kapex, then sell the midi and makita saw which should be halfway towards the CTL26 package.

Just a curveball.......
If you are worried about a new updated Kapex model, ask the folks at Festool UK in Suffolk, they are usually VERY helpful. However I wouldn't get rid of the NVD 750 so quickly..... They do a 50mm smooth internal bore hose which attaches to the front threaded outlet (for the HEPA bag) and also a wide range of ends, which attach to my Festool Y piece on the CMS/CS70. My CT*26 doesn't get close to the suction of the NVD. IIRC the hose was <£100. PM me and I will try and find the details. You can add remote/bluetooth start stop with a Kinetic power adapter and dongle for a few pennies and I totally agree with the comments above, a separator is well worth it, especially if your 'dust' is not the finest (drywall/cement screed) variety. Hope that helps

craigsalisbury75 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 19, 2022, 04:08 PM »

Quote from: DeejayK on October 11, 2022, 01:22 PM

Quote from: craigsalisbury75 on October 10, 2022, 03:35 AM
Quote from: woodbutcherbower on October 10, 2022, 03:16 AM
No point whatsoever in going M-class or AC - pls re-read my post above explaining why. I think that other contributors have eloquently expressed why getting the saw first is your best route.

Kevin

and i completely agree, apologies, i didnt make myself clearer in my earlier reply, the 2 decisions were what i was fighting with in my initial post, then since you mentioned the CTL i agrre thats the best solution. i plan to buy the kapex, then sell the midi and makita saw which should be halfway towards the CTL26 package.

Just a curveball.......
If you are worried about a new updated Kapex model, ask the folks at Festool UK in Suffolk, they are usually VERY helpful. However I wouldn't get rid of the NVD 750 so quickly..... They do a 50mm smooth internal bore hose which attaches to the front threaded outlet (for the HEPA bag) and also a wide range of ends, which attach to my Festool Y piece on the CMS/CS70. My CT*26 doesn't get close to the suction of the NVD. IIRC the hose was <£100. PM me and I will try and find the details. You can add remote/bluetooth start stop with a Kinetic power adapter and dongle for a few pennies and I totally agree with the comments above, a separator is well worth it, especially if your 'dust' is not the finest (drywall/cement screed) variety. Hope that helps

Ah thanks, i got the midi on gumtree and flogged the makita, so im going for the Kapex (hopefully 10% black friday but ho knows) and the midi will get replaced for the CT26 with BT and separator. I just don't see i need the nvd as well as im not a fan of bags and i dont see a decent separator for it without essentially a separate unit (single garage). i have a chip extractor with 5" hose for the bigger stuff.

This has got me thinking though.

Packard · « **Reply #27 on:** October 19, 2022, 04:50 PM »

I have a DeWalt 12” miter saw, an older saw, non-sliding. I have a well-reviewed 96 tooth Freud blade. The cuts are accurate, but the miters are never as clean as those on my table saw or radial arm saw. Wherever feasible, I prefer to use the table saw or radial arm saw for that reason.

I just looked it up, and that blade is being sold at Rockler for $148.00 (US$), so not a garbage blade.

woodbutcherbower · « **Reply #28 on:** October 19, 2022, 06:11 PM »

The Freud 96T has been updated to 100T and is my go-to blade for my DWS780 - I have six of them in a constant cycle of being used/being resharpened. So 96T vs. 100T ?

To paraphrase Nigel Tufnell from Spinal Tap = it’s 4 better.