Author Topic: new Festools January 2022 - battery powered CT SYS + MINI/MIDI + KAPEX  (Read 10188 times)

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Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1195
There is a difference between being compatible with dual 4.0 and being compatible with larger single batteries too.

A certain other brand has 8.0 and 12.0 batteries. A matter of stacking the 4.0 Ah 21700 cells just like a 5.2 Ah is two rows of 18650 cells.

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Offline Paul_HKI

  • Posts: 126
There is a difference between being compatible with dual 4.0 and being compatible with larger single batteries too.

A certain other brand has 8.0 and 12.0 batteries. A matter of stacking the 4.0 Ah 21700 cells just like a 5.2 Ah is two rows of 18650 cells.


Yep.  It's not about current capacity at 18V by combining cells in parallel though, unfortunately.  It's a 36V tool, so it needs two reasonably balanced batteries in series.  I don't know what they were thinking, to be honest.


They really should have designed it to take a pair of 5,2's.  I've over €1150 'invested' in 5.2's during the past 9 months, yet I can't use those batteries with this new tool.  That's just dumb and if they actually measured NPS, there have been a few moves recently that would hammer them on that score.


It's bizarre to think I'd have to buy more batteries, just to be able to use a tool that should be completely compatible with their battery system.  But it's not.  The more I think about it, the more it annoys me.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 12:12 PM by Paul_HKI »
TSC 55, TS 55 REBQ, HKC 55, DF 500 & DF 700, OF2020, OF1010 REBQ, OFK 500, T18+3, PDC 18/4, TID 18, RO 150, RO 90, RAS 115, RTS 400, ETS 125, ETS 150/5, EHL 65, HL 850 EB, CTL 26 E, CTL MIDI I,  CTL-SYS, MFT/3, SYS PowerHub, DUO SYSLITE, KAL & KAL II's and the truly awful BR 10.

Offline Pixeltim

  • Posts: 9
I’m glad I’m not alone when it comes to buying stuff from China.
We are totally screwing ourselves with every dollar we send them.

I've seen the CTC-SYS in person and I was initially very pleased to see it's going to be available..  The shine went off that very quickly.  Rant follows...  The 4Ah batteries are right up there with the Bott/Sys3 decision as far as I'm concerned.

It's a major disappointment to me that the new CTC-SYS won't take the 5,2Ah batteries.  And it definitely won't, as it needs a pair of batteries to run, but has been designed to take only the 4Ah batteries.  The 'new' ones which are made in China.  Which I will never, ever buy. 

I've bought 4 CTL-SYS over the past number of years.  It's a real PITA that I can't get the Cordless/BT enabled one I'd wanted, but I'm not paying Festool prices to swap out my CTL-SYS, only to have to pay more Festool prices to buy Chinese batteries to go into those new CT's.  That is just not  happening. 

If the batteries are not made in Europe, I'm not buying them.  And if I need chinese made batteries for a Festool tool, I'm not buying that tool either.


The KSC 60 is really nice kit.  I'll be having one of those as soon as they're available.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3020
I’m glad I’m not alone when it comes to buying stuff from China.
We are totally screwing ourselves with every dollar we send them.



Will you refuse to buy a product if its raw materials or parts come from China? China also gets money sent to it when it sells raw materials/parts around the world.

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1032
Guys, let's not get too off-topic... This line of discussion can quickly lead to breaking the "no politics" rule on the forums...

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3020
Guys, let's not get too off-topic... This line of discussion can quickly lead to breaking the "no politics" rule on the forums...

Not being political here as I don't care if people buy or not buy something from any country. Their money, their call. But I'm trying to understand how someone can be sure when they buy something, no money or no part of it they pay would go to another country in this global trading world.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 03:40 PM by ChuckS »

Offline SRSemenza

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Guys, let's not get too off-topic... This line of discussion can quickly lead to breaking the "no politics" rule on the forums...

What he said ^^^

Regardless of it not being  technically political, this looks like a discussion for you guys to have privately if you like.
 
There is more than enough of this type of topic all over the internet. It really isn't needed on FOG.

Seth

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3020
Guys, let's not get too off-topic... This line of discussion can quickly lead to breaking the "no politics" rule on the forums...

What he said ^^^

Regardless of it not being  technically political, this looks like a discussion for you guys to have privately if you like.
 
There is more than enough of this type of topic all over the internet. It really isn't needed on FOG.

Seth

If so, I agree that all related posts or relevant parts should be edited or deleted by the moderator.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1398
does the CT-SYS come with a dual battery charger? or have a way to just charge them in place?

I'm rather thinking this is a case they should have just built a battery pack into it, more like their recent power station, just build a module from that into this.  If you have to keep 2 matched batteries around for it, and you are stuck with a certain size, having them be the system batteries doesn't get you very much.  They could have fit more battery in the same space if it was just integral.  As long as it's a chunk that could be replaced down the road if needed, it would be fine.

Offline slavi.yordanov

  • Posts: 70
does the CT-SYS come with a dual battery charger? or have a way to just charge them in place?

I'm rather thinking this is a case they should have just built a battery pack into it, more like their recent power station, just build a module from that into this.  If you have to keep 2 matched batteries around for it, and you are stuck with a certain size, having them be the system batteries doesn't get you very much.  They could have fit more battery in the same space if it was just integral.  As long as it's a chunk that could be replaced down the road if needed, it would be fine.
I don’t think that this is really the idea of cordless tools. You can apply the same logic to drills, but that quickly becomes impractical.

Fitting two 6.2 batteries in that vacuum would have been ideal for run-time, but of course we don’t know the limitations they had to design around.

That still doesn’t make it ok though, since there are a lot of people with older 5.2/6.2 batteries that would have buy new batteries to use that vacuum, which is against the whole ‘system’ thing.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9108

Yep.  It's not about current capacity at 18V by combining cells in parallel though, unfortunately.  It's a 36V tool, so it needs two reasonably balanced batteries in series.  I don't know what they were thinking, to be honest.


That 36 volt tool statement jumps out at me. Why not go down the same path as the TSC, use either 1 or 2 of the 18 volt batteries. There seems to be enough space available for a single 5.2 or single 6.2 battery or the pair of 4.0 batteries. I'm not understanding why 36 volts is needed to suck up some dust while only 18 volts is needed to rip 2" oak.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1195
There is a difference between being compatible with dual 4.0 and being compatible with larger single batteries too.

A certain other brand has 8.0 and 12.0 batteries. A matter of stacking the 4.0 Ah 21700 cells just like a 5.2 Ah is two rows of 18650 cells.


Yep.  It's not about current capacity at 18V by combining cells in parallel though, unfortunately.  It's a 36V tool, so it needs two reasonably balanced batteries in series.  I don't know what they were thinking, to be honest.


They really should have designed it to take a pair of 5,2's.  I've over €1150 'invested' in 5.2's during the past 9 months, yet I can't use those batteries with this new tool.  That's just dumb and if they actually measured NPS, there have been a few moves recently that would hammer them on that score.


It's bizarre to think I'd have to buy more batteries, just to be able to use a tool that should be completely compatible with their battery system.  But it's not.  The more I think about it, the more it annoys me.

Batteries don't have to be balanced as they are individually protected of course. But it just makes sense to put two full ones in at the same time.

But the competition all runs on one 18V battery and does not require one specific battery. But the total amount of batteries and charger probably isn't different from the competition, because dual batteries is probably dual runtime, so less likely to be too hot to charge (like with the Bosch GAS 18V 10L combined with 4-5 Ah battery, including Procore).

I like the idea of a 'box' though. Just like Metabo has some kind of box. The Bosch 18V extractor is kinda the "let's hook around everything you walk past" type.

Bags are also a bonus.

Offline Paul_HKI

  • Posts: 126

Yep.  It's not about current capacity at 18V by combining cells in parallel though, unfortunately.  It's a 36V tool, so it needs two reasonably balanced batteries in series.  I don't know what they were thinking, to be honest.


That 36 volt tool statement jumps out at me. Why not go down the same path as the TSC, use either 1 or 2 of the 18 volt batteries. There seems to be enough space available for a single 5.2 or single 6.2 battery or the pair of 4.0 batteries. I'm not understanding why 36 volts is needed to suck up some dust while only 18 volts is needed to rip 2" oak.


I don't know either.  But it says on the literature that it's a 36V unit and the label on the unit indicates the same.  The one thing I think we can be reasonably confident about is that it will perform absolutely as well as we've come to expect, so if it needs 2 batteries to do that, fair enough.  I just wish I could buy it without having to buy more batteries.   ::)
TSC 55, TS 55 REBQ, HKC 55, DF 500 & DF 700, OF2020, OF1010 REBQ, OFK 500, T18+3, PDC 18/4, TID 18, RO 150, RO 90, RAS 115, RTS 400, ETS 125, ETS 150/5, EHL 65, HL 850 EB, CTL 26 E, CTL MIDI I,  CTL-SYS, MFT/3, SYS PowerHub, DUO SYSLITE, KAL & KAL II's and the truly awful BR 10.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1398
does the CT-SYS come with a dual battery charger? or have a way to just charge them in place?

I'm rather thinking this is a case they should have just built a battery pack into it, more like their recent power station, just build a module from that into this.  If you have to keep 2 matched batteries around for it, and you are stuck with a certain size, having them be the system batteries doesn't get you very much.  They could have fit more battery in the same space if it was just integral.  As long as it's a chunk that could be replaced down the road if needed, it would be fine.
I don’t think that this is really the idea of cordless tools. You can apply the same logic to drills, but that quickly becomes impractical.

Fitting two 6.2 batteries in that vacuum would have been ideal for run-time, but of course we don’t know the limitations they had to design around.

That still doesn’t make it ok though, since there are a lot of people with older 5.2/6.2 batteries that would have buy new batteries to use that vacuum, which is against the whole ‘system’ thing.

Not at all.  The tools you remove batteries use them on other tools.  With the vac, you will have 2 batteries forever dedicated to it. If you get in a pinch and grab one out of it, then you end up without the ability to run the vac when using the tool, so defeats the vacuum, or you don't have the vacuum to clean up in the end.

If it just used one battery, then it would work ok, but still, you basically will have a battery with it at all times, and there isn't an upgrade path to it. Systems get bigger and bigger batteries as the go on, such batteries won't fit in this.

If it needs 36V, then maybe festool should have just brought out a new 36V battery to use for big tools like a vaccum, kapex, table saw, router, lawn mower.

Lack of any solid plan/vision on batteries is one of the big reasons I won't buy Festool Battery tools.  Other brands like Milwaulkee have had a system like M18 around forever now and all batteries work on all tools they have made, and now they have some monster batteries. It's clearly not that hard, and when you need to come out with a much bigger battery, you do it.

I like the idea of a battery sys vac with blutooth. But this isn't selling me at all.

Offline SRSemenza

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does the CT-SYS come with a dual battery charger? or have a way to just charge them in place?

I'm rather thinking this is a case they should have just built a battery pack into it, more like their recent power station, just build a module from that into this.  If you have to keep 2 matched batteries around for it, and you are stuck with a certain size, having them be the system batteries doesn't get you very much.  They could have fit more battery in the same space if it was just integral.  As long as it's a chunk that could be replaced down the road if needed, it would be fine.

      Non-removable batteries mean you have to wait around for the tool (CT-SYS) to charge rather than just changing the batteries out for a fresh pair.

The batteries don't have to be dedicated to only being used in the vac. If you are not using the vac they can be used in some other tools.


Seth

 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 10:14 AM by SRSemenza »

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 239
I think this is a fairly unique issue that Festool faced here. For any other form factor, they can have the batteries mounted externally where size isn’t an issue, but a systainer needs to fit within a stack and slide into a rack/drawer. So the batteries on a ct-sys have to be mounted internally which means there is always going to be an upper limit in size. Even if they’d have managed to squeeze two 5.2a batteries in there, whatever larger size battery Festool brought out next wouldn’t have fitted.

That being said, Festool have options here and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they also brought out a sys3L version if the sys3M size proves popular. That would allow them to increase the battery size limit.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2389
Roll all three into one.

Cordless CT-Sys
Dust bin
Power station that functions as a 4 port multi-battery charger or power bank/inverter
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 272
Interesting but I must be getting old. I can not fathom why everything has to go battery-powered. Festool, if everything you sell goes batter powered I won't be buying. I'm glad some people find it useful, but I don't. At least leave the option for adding a plug somewhere on the equipment you make.
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 239
I don’t think the option to buy mains power dust extractors will be going anywhere. Cordless tools like these will be very appealing to trades who often find themselves working where power isn’t available though.

I imagine a lot of electricians will appreciate being able to keep work areas clean while they have the power shut off for the whole day. The same goes for trades doing first fix on new build sites where power is limited. The rest of us will just buy the mains version.

Offline cpw

  • Posts: 316
I am a little disappointed that it is not a hybrid.  I have a Dewalt 20V hybrid and it is great, but doesn't offer tool triggered activation.  The decision to use only some of the batteries is also disappointing.  I have 4 5.2AH and 2 6.2Ah batteries, and only 2 of the new 4AH high-power that came with a Vecturo.

The form factor is "fixed" in terms of the M footprint, but there are many different systainer heights they could have chosen to fit more batteries and the tool activated plug. 

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1032
It could also be that Festool's development road map already has 5.2 Ah batteries in the smaller form factor within a year or two and that obviated the need to expand the battery bay on the CT-SYS.

Besides, at some point stuffing larger and larger batteries turns the CT-SYS into an unbalanced, unwieldy, potentially stationary tool because you overload it with too much weight.  Once you reach a full workdays' runtime, any extra capacity is just detrimental to portability. 

I'm guessing the bag will also fill up before the batteries die.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6776
  • Festool Baby.....
Wish someone would come out with a adapter to use my Festool batteries with other brands say Milwaukee ( just pick a brand) so I could buy a battery operated nail gun and  use my Festool batteries with it

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1398
does the CT-SYS come with a dual battery charger? or have a way to just charge them in place?

I'm rather thinking this is a case they should have just built a battery pack into it, more like their recent power station, just build a module from that into this.  If you have to keep 2 matched batteries around for it, and you are stuck with a certain size, having them be the system batteries doesn't get you very much.  They could have fit more battery in the same space if it was just integral.  As long as it's a chunk that could be replaced down the road if needed, it would be fine.

Um, no. Non-removable batteries mean you have to wait around for the tool (CT-SYS) to charge rather than just changing the batteries out for a fresh pair.

The batteries don't have to be dedicated to only being used in the vac. If you are not using the vac they can be used in some other tools.


Seth


My point is the vac is in a different situation from the rest. If it was built in pack, with a plug where it's charger connects, then you just end up with a situation where it isn't "cordless" when the battery goes low.  Since you won't always need to be cordless, this would be ok.  They could have even gone the next step and has the CT be able to be a battery charger.   If the vac only used 1 battery, and it was of an external design (no form factor limit), I'd be more inclined to see it like other tools, but this one they have really boxed in the use case.

Who ever buys these, will always have to keep some of that size battery around. And if you have to be concerned about re-charging the batteries, and thus having a second set. That is 4 batteries you have to keep around to keep cycling thru and using for this vacuum.  You can't use them for the other tools, as then you won't be able to run the vac.  If you do use the batteries on other tools, over time, they will have different life, now you will have the CT shutting down because 1 of the 2 is dead.

If you don't need the CT to be running most/all the time while working, maybe you can work with this, but then that starts to defeat the point here.  Just like a Corded CT. You use, disconnect, swap tools, etc while working, but the vac is always there, being used all the time, with all the dust making tools.  Thus why you need dedicated batteries for it.  The other tools you swap around between tools, but the vacuum is constant thru the usage.

A persons situation can vary. Someone on a site with no access to power is going to be battery dependent. If they own a lot of batteries, then this setup can work, but they will still need to be sure they have batteries for this.  But if the situation is more of intermittent access to power, or a work situation where they just need to disconnect then come back, the built in I mentioned could be best.

Like was mentioned by others, if it was a hybrid design, and had a wall power option, that would help it a lot.

I just think they could have implemented this better with either.

1) 1 built in battery, have a plug in charger to charge it up, run off wall
2) 1 system battery verses 2, have a plug in charger to charge it up, run off wall
3) Have 1 battery that connects externally to it , mount is in the form factor limits, but when installed battery hangs off side (no size limitations), have a plug in charger to charge it up, run off wall.
4) Multiple external battery attachments, and charger plug to wall. Acts as a battery charger while you work, if you unplug from wall, as long as at least one battery is installed, it runs.
5) Launch a much bigger battery (36v?) system with this, those batteries get used for future higher power tools.


Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1398
It could also be that Festool's development road map already has 5.2 Ah batteries in the smaller form factor within a year or two and that obviated the need to expand the battery bay on the CT-SYS.

Besides, at some point stuffing larger and larger batteries turns the CT-SYS into an unbalanced, unwieldy, potentially stationary tool because you overload it with too much weight.  Once you reach a full workdays' runtime, any extra capacity is just detrimental to portability. 

I'm guessing the bag will also fill up before the batteries die.

I don't think it's so much the issue of getting unwieldy, it's the issue of having to have some of those particular form factor batteries around.  Yes, it could/would get weird with some huge battery on there, but if that is all you have that is charged, you would like it to work.  I would not expect sudden big increases in capacity in same form factor batteries.  Generally manufactures just keep adding additional parallel strings, thus bigger battery sizes.  I know M18 system has at least 3 different physical sizes, they just keep getting bigger. I don't know if they even still make the earlier smallest ones.  But as is, I don't have to keep a particular size around as they all interchange.

I am expecting this to be a battery hog.  A CT-Sys is 8.3A at 120VAC, ~1000watts.  So at 36 volts, you are talking almost 28A.  4ah/28*60min ~8.5min run time. It's not like a saw that only runs in few second burst.

So it's draining quickly the whole time you are using it with a tool, and then you still need it for clean up at the end. Thus to get some real use, someone is going to have to have a pile of 4ah batteries to keep feeding this thing.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1195
Having a fixed battery build-in would be worse. Then it's 'deplete.... and useless'.

The power calculation does not compare to the AC version. Look at competition. Bosch gets 3.5 minutes per Ah out of the 18V extractor that is marked '270W', some other brands have variable speed and more and less per Ah. They do audible reduce motorspeed with the battery depleting though; suction decreases.

Single battery or dual battery; you kinda need 4 batteries anyway. If single battery, the battery will be too hot to charge if you deplete it in one run. So one battery in the tool, one cooling down, two on chargers. Maybe with dual battery and halved load per battery the heat problem is reduced.

'Inside' or 'outside' with the battery; This kinda looks 'open' to me, not waterproof!?

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 239
Systainers are supposed to be a modular system where you click together the bits you need for a job and wheel them in. If you need a dust extractor and a power pack, you get the them separately and t-loc them together.

The alternative is a multi-thousand dollar/pound combined unit that does everything you could ever want, but hardly anyone can afford.

Not to mention that the ct-sys has always been a compromised device, for people who valued the compact size and systainer form factor over everything else. If someone needs more power, more capacity, bigger battery support, there are the larger CTs.

Offline imdking

  • Posts: 70
  • Tropical woodworking hobbyist
Snip

If someone needs more power, more capacity, bigger battery support, there are the larger CTs.

Amen.
It's one of those things. Desirable to fit the biggest battery available, but not practical. 🤷🏾‍♂️
TS55 REBQ, 2 x FS 1400/2, FS 800/2, Festool carrying bag for rails, FS-AW Cable Deflector, Kapex KS 120 REB, CTM Midi, Domino DF 500, FS-HZ 160 ratchet lever clamps x2.

Online DynaGlide

  • Posts: 1140
Re: new Festools January 2022 - battery powered CT SYS + MINI/MIDI + KAPEX
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2021, 09:24 AM »
Any hints as to pricing on this? I tried searching but didn't turn anything up.

This paired with the OSC 18 seems like a perfect match.
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Offline imdking

  • Posts: 70
  • Tropical woodworking hobbyist
Re: new Festools January 2022 - battery powered CT SYS + MINI/MIDI + KAPEX
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2021, 11:18 AM »
Fitting the tool triggered plug on there would have meant draining the battery by powering the attached tool, and running the dust extractor off the same battery. Then you would be complaining about the short run time of a couple of minutes.

Guys, that was the most practical form factor that the design team came up with. If it doesn't work for you, get one that does. Even from a different brand.

Some demands from users are just impossible.
TS55 REBQ, 2 x FS 1400/2, FS 800/2, Festool carrying bag for rails, FS-AW Cable Deflector, Kapex KS 120 REB, CTM Midi, Domino DF 500, FS-HZ 160 ratchet lever clamps x2.

Offline slavi.yordanov

  • Posts: 70
Re: new Festools January 2022 - battery powered CT SYS + MINI/MIDI + KAPEX
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2021, 12:01 PM »
Fitting the tool triggered plug on there would have meant draining the battery by powering the attached tool, and running the dust extractor off the same battery. Then you would be complaining about the short run time of a couple of minutes.

Guys, that was the most practical form factor that the design team came up with. If it doesn't work for you, get one that does. Even from a different brand.

Some demands from users are just impossible.
I think everyone forgets that this vacuum is not designed for running drywall sander, router, domino or a track saw all day. The volume of the bag is restricting that kind of usage in the first place. l

The way I see it, it’s a clean up vacuum, maybe some quick touch up or something small that needs fixing, and you don’t want to get the ct26 out. You go in sand of a few spots, make a cut with track saw on cover panel, or some other finishing touches. And it’s perfectly adequate for that.