Author Topic: My RO90 tried to kill me  (Read 2403 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cliffsgarage

  • Posts: 2
My RO90 tried to kill me
« on: September 04, 2019, 10:43 AM »
OK, not really. But apparently Festool sander backing plates decay over time? Festool's solution was somewhat amusing ...

UPDATE: I've tried several ways to give the link, but it just won't appear. Let's try this way ... youtube dot com/watch?v=AW1V_5KnhNE
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 10:52 AM by cliffsgarage »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 12039
  • MacGyver - My boy 2010 - 2019 RIP
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2019, 11:16 AM »
Welcome to the forum.  Yes the backing pads do deteriorate over time. 

Peter

Offline waho6o9

  • Posts: 1472
    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2019, 01:10 PM »
They're a consumable just like the old time 1/4 sheet sander pads'  that we used to have to replace.

Welcome to the forum!

Here's the link:

Offline cliffsgarage

  • Posts: 2
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2019, 01:34 PM »
Thanks for all the welcomes, but I've actually been a member for about a decade. Chrome lost my login/password and I have absolutely no idea what it was or what email I used :) So I just created a new account.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6117
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2019, 03:09 PM »
I like how you talk.  [smile] I like the way your voice sounds and the way you pronounce your words and make your sentences flow.

But about the backing pads, I think their lifespan is a bit short if you're a hobbyist who uses them intermittently, but pro's who use their sanders daily should wear them out before they deteriorate chemically. And Festool mainly aims at the last market. Back in the days when my father still had his bodyshop, the sanders would run 4 or 5 hours a day and we would replace the backing pad every 6 to 8 months because it was simply worn out because of use.

It doesn't take 6 to 12 months for a Festool pad to deteriorate though, but a few years. The pad of my RO150 broke after 8 years, of my ETS125 after 4 years - but I bought it used and it was old already, and of my ETS150 it broke after 6 years.   

Offline safety1st

  • Posts: 182
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2019, 03:19 PM »
wondering if keeping them in systainers (in a closed box) would help reduce deterioration.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6117
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2019, 03:49 PM »
wondering if keeping them in systainers (in a closed box) would help reduce deterioration.

It would, it is not exposure to air that makes them deteriorate, but exposure to UV light. UV light is the killer of plastics.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4222
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2019, 08:45 PM »
wondering if keeping them in systainers (in a closed box) would help reduce deterioration.

It would, it is not exposure to air that makes them deteriorate, but exposure to UV light. UV light is the killer of plastics.

Nope.

Inherent vice.

Keep them in a plastic bag in a Systainer in a dark basement and they’ll still disintegrate.

Offline SS Teach

  • Posts: 286
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2019, 10:12 PM »
Good to know.  My sanders are going on 7 years.
RTS 400, LS 130, Sandpaper Systainer, Profile Systainer. ETS 125, Sandpaper Systainer, Ro 90, Sandpaper Systainer,  Ro 150, Sandpaper Systainer, OF 1400, TS 55 REQ, CT36, CXS Li 1.5 Set, Centrotec Wood-Drill-Set/8pcs, CT Wings, Surfix Set. Domino 500, Domino Systainer, Parallel Guide

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 464
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2019, 10:22 PM »
My RO 150 pad fell apart this evening 30 minutes after my local Woodcraft store closed. Fortunately I had a spare.

It was very difficult to change the pad. First, I could not get the Fast Fix button to depress. Once I finally got the button pushed in, I nearly gave up before the pad finally came off.

Ah, wrong pad. I did not pay attention to the fine print on the package. I bought it so long ago, I do not remember where I got it.

Guess I will wait until Woodcraft opens up in the morning.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 582
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2019, 11:11 PM »
wondering if keeping them in systainers (in a closed box) would help reduce deterioration.

It would, it is not exposure to air that makes them deteriorate, but exposure to UV light. UV light is the killer of plastics.

Nope.

Inherent vice.

Keep them in a plastic bag in a Systainer in a dark basement and they’ll still disintegrate.

Many things kill plastic/synthetics.  Without knowing the exact material of the pads, you can't begin to identify the main threat.  Light will probably be a strong component, but humidity can drive change, time is always there, temperature.  Different people in different places with different storage methods will probably have different drivers that kill the plastics.

Offline RJNeal

  • Posts: 398
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2019, 11:42 PM »
I bought a used et 150/5 from a fellow FOG member about six years ago. Used it a time or two stored it in its systainer. Brought it out last year and the pad when south. So sun light is probably not the problem.
Rick.
Have you walked your saw today?

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6117
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2019, 01:40 AM »
wondering if keeping them in systainers (in a closed box) would help reduce deterioration.

It would, it is not exposure to air that makes them deteriorate, but exposure to UV light. UV light is the killer of plastics.

Nope.

Inherent vice.

Keep them in a plastic bag in a Systainer in a dark basement and they’ll still disintegrate.

I suspect that's also part of the problem, the chemicals inside which react with each other over time. But notice how your pads turn from the freshest white to light brown over time? That's UV. UV light speeds up those chemical reactions inside the material.

Offline Euclid

  • Posts: 185
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2019, 04:34 AM »
I think the best you can do is to keep them in a vacuum, in a sealed glass container, in the dark. And never take them out.
Some, though, may find this less than convenient...

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6466
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2019, 09:42 AM »
Just the nature of the beast...Festool, Milwaukee, Porter Cable sanding pads all toast. A foam insert to hold a Starrett dial indicator... toast. A foam insert inside a S&W presentation case to hold a S&W Model 66...toast.

Actually, a while back I was going to start a thread warning folks about using soft foam inserts to store expensive/precision items.

In the cases of the Starrett and S&W items, the boxes were factory items with factory soft foam inserts, kept in a dark temperature & humidity controlled environment and basically never/seldom used. The foam was toast within 15 years...maybe it was sooner, don't know both these items were seldom used. The worrisome part is that the degraded foam sticks to the item and it's tough trying to remove the foam without damaging the finish.


« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 09:45 AM by Cheese »

Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2019, 10:23 AM »
Just the nature of the beast...Festool, Milwaukee, Porter Cable sanding pads all toast. A foam insert to hold a Starrett dial indicator... toast. A foam insert inside a S&W presentation case to hold a S&W Model 66...toast.

Actually, a while back I was going to start a thread warning folks about using soft foam inserts to store expensive/precision items.

In the cases of the Starrett and S&W items, the boxes were factory items with factory soft foam inserts, kept in a dark temperature & humidity controlled environment and basically never/seldom used. The foam was toast within 15 years...maybe it was sooner, don't know both these items were seldom used. The worrisome part is that the degraded foam sticks to the item and it's tough trying to remove the foam without damaging the finish.

I actually came across a vintage mitumoyo micrometer set a while back. Flawless condition still had rubber boots on all the micrometers. But the foam... the foam had disintegrated and stuck to the metal just as you say. I tried scrubbing, light chemicals etc. I couldn’t expiriment too much without risking the tools. But yes. This is exactly true.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4222
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2019, 10:55 AM »
@Cheese  not “toast”, mush.

Offline Euclid

  • Posts: 185
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2019, 11:08 AM »
I'm heading off-thread a little here, but does anyone know how Kaizen foam reacts to ageing?

Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2019, 11:56 AM »
I'm heading off-thread a little here, but does anyone know how Kaizen foam reacts to ageing?

I had seen this online but it still happened to me. Not aging but UV rays through a clear lid damage that foam a lot.

This was maybe 30 minutes in direct sun. Lid  closed.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4222
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2019, 12:03 PM »
Don’t have any Kaizen foam but in my experience the most durable foam is made of polyethylene. I’ve been working with it since the late ‘70s for packing fine art. I’ve never seen any that showed signs of age related deterioration. (It does contain plastisizers so it should not be in direct contact with matte paint surfaces)
Kaizen looks like a sandwich of poorly bonded layers of (about) 3mm polyethylene foam.

Checked the inter tubes and found only one post that identified Kaizen foam.
It said Kaizen foam is polyethylene. So, should be good for decades.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4222
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2019, 12:06 PM »
@CarlsonCarpentry  that does look like a fine textured polyethylene foam. It is a thermoplastic (and it’s black) so too much heat will deform it.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1839
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2019, 01:02 PM »
Polyurethane foam (typically soft, open cell) ages and disintegrates quickly (years).
Polyethylene foam (firm, closed cell) is much more durable.

Kaizen foam is polyethylene, in the above picture it simply melted. Clear polycarbonate lid blocks UV.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 01:09 PM by Svar »

Offline Jim_in_PA

  • Posts: 78
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2019, 09:13 AM »
Hook and Loop pads on sanders naturally degrade, both from the motion and from...heat...generated during sanding, especially by folks who tend to put excessive downward pressure on the sander, thinking it will work better. One thing I like about Festool is that the current replacements are much nicer than the earlier ones so my "old" 150/3 and RO150 get upgraded each time I have to replace the pad. :)
----
ETS 150/3, Rotex 150, OF1010, OF1400, Trion PS 300, TDK-12, CT-22, MFT 1080, TS55, Domino XL DF 700, 8' track, (2) 55" tracks

SCM MiniMax S315WS, FS350, MM16, Camaster Stinger II SR-44 CNC

Online Alanbach

  • Posts: 410
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2019, 10:45 AM »
I have a question for those of you that have some knowledge of plastics. Is it UV rays that cause the pads to deteriorate or oxidation? If Festool was recommending a sealed Zip-Loc wouldn’t that hint that oxidation was the issue?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1839
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2019, 10:59 AM »
I have a question for those of you that have some knowledge of plastics. Is it UV rays that cause the pads to deteriorate or oxidation? If Festool was recommending a sealed Zip-Loc wouldn’t that hint that oxidation was the issue?
Don't claim any knowledge of plastics, but my guess is oxidation + mechanical stress/vibration.
UV don't penetrate beyond surface. Besides, typical exposure is short. Pads spend most of the time in boxes or indoors.

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 71
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2019, 04:27 PM »
But why is it that my Festool pads don't last near as long as those on my Porter Cable, Bosch and Dewalt sanders do ?

They all get used about the same amount.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4222
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2019, 04:46 PM »
My older PC sander pads disintegrate similarly to the Festool pads. Don’t have any recent PC pads. My Bosch pads are a different composition and last much longer.

Offline andy5405

  • Posts: 405
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2019, 12:46 AM »
I like this thread just for the title! I don't normally associate the FOG with tabloid style sensationalist headlines. It's normally far more conservative.

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 344
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2019, 09:07 AM »
I like this thread just for the title! I don't normally associate the FOG with tabloid style sensationalist headlines. It's normally far more conservative.

+1

Offline JimD

  • Posts: 392
Re: My RO90 tried to kill me
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2019, 01:21 PM »
I had to replace the pad on my Bosch DEVS 1250 after only a year or so of use.  It did not come apart but the hook and loop lost their grip.  I used it to take 50 years of paint off the clapboards covering two exterior walls of my dining room.  I used 40 grit paper and was in the "turbo" more agressive mode most of the time.  So I didn't think too much about it.  In more normal use, I think I will get much more than a year out of the replacement.

I used to have a Milwaukee random orbit I liked a lot.  It's pad did not give out, however, the whole random orbit mechanism fell apart.  Ball bearings went all over.  A DeWalt replaced it and then I got the Bosch - which I really like because it gets done quicker.  It has a 5mm orbit and the turbo mode - fairly similar to a bigger Rotex.