Author Topic: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?  (Read 10386 times)

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Offline TomK_2

  • Posts: 66
Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« on: July 18, 2022, 11:01 AM »
Hi all,

I’m ready to part with my Dewalt 10” slider to find something that I can keep up against the wall in the garage.

I’ve been looking at the Kapex as an option and I’d prefer to stay with a 10” saw because it will handle most of my needs. I do have a few questions for all of you Kapex owners…

1) Do you really ever get used to that inline handle? It feels so awkward how you have to bend your wrist.

2) How is cutting base board on the flat? My DeWalt can just barely cut 5.25” base standing up at 90 deg and can do a 45 degree cut if it’s less than an inch off the end. I don’t think I would mind cutting on the flat with the ease that Kapex can adjust. I would not even attempt on the Dewalt.

3) How accurate are the lasers vs the shadow line? Has anyone added an aftermarket LED to cast a shadow?

4) Can you cut a 4” square post? (3.5” nominal)

5) Are you happy enough with the blade selection? They are a bit pricy but at least can be resharpened.

6) How is the Kapex in the power department. Does she bog cutting hardwood?

Thanks!


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Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3700
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2022, 05:04 PM »
User for 7 years here.

1) It feels so awkward how you have to bend your wrist.
Not for me. The inline handle is a good design because it's how you hold a hand saw. A loose to moderate grip on the Kapex handle is good enough, preventing any unintended deflection of the saw head.

2) How is cutting base board on the flat?

The bevel control is the best in its class, and the 45* bevel cuts are spot-on.



3) How accurate are the lasers vs the shadow line? Has anyone added an aftermarket LED to cast a shadow?
I use the lasers only for ballpark cuts. Precision cuts are done with stop blocks. No experience with shadow lines.

4) Can you cut a 4” square post? (3.5” nominal)

Max. cutting depth at 120mm (over 4.5")

5) Are you happy enough with the blade selection? They are a bit pricy but at least can be resharpened.

Same factory blade since Day 1, and no resharpening has been needed. Still sharp for anything I throw at it (walnut, maple, cherry, oak, sapele, etc.)

6) How is the Kapex in the power department. Does she bog cutting hardwood?
No such experience so far.

Edit - Use a short 36mm hose for the best dust extraction result.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 06:33 PM by ChuckS »

Offline batmanimal

  • Posts: 111
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2022, 05:15 PM »
I sold my 12” Dewalt SCMS and got the Kapex for the same reason. I use my saw a lot more now that I don’t have to set it up out of storage every time. Kapex sits very nicely on a rolling stand at the back of my garage. Takes barely a minute to roll it out and get set for a quick cut or small project.

I never had an issue with the inline handle. I feel like it gives me more control, if that makes sense.

I do miss the XPS shadow line system. That was so simple and genius. Laser on Kapex is OK. The blade falls in between two very fine laser lines. It took me a little getting used to to remember where the blade was going to hit (vs referencing only off a single line)

I do use the Kapex wings for repeatable cuts and they come out perfect every time, rendering the laser less necessary for me.

If you make the switch, try to find the Kapex locally vs having it shipped. There are many reports on here from users who got damaged saws (the packaging is woefully inadequate for consumer shipping)

Offline AofD

  • Posts: 72
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2022, 10:39 PM »
Kapex user for at 8 years.

1) Do you really ever get used to that inline handle?
  --> Like everything done multiple times, you get used to it.  There is no downside to using an inline handle, but I ultimately prefer a side handle strictly from a "feel" point of view.  There are too many other upsides to using a Kapex that, to me, make the inline handle operation a non-factor.

3) How accurate are the lasers vs the shadow line? Has anyone added an aftermarket LED to cast a shadow?
   --> As accurate as the calibration.  Mine was perfectly calibrated out of the factory so no issue.  I've heard very few users say it required some calibration after factory delivery.  The re-calibration process is simple if adjustments are necessary.

4) Can you cut a 4” square post? (3.5” nominal)
   --> No problem.

5) Are you happy enough with the blade selection? They are a bit pricy but at least can be resharpened.
   --> like ChuckS said... same factory blade since Day 1, and no resharpening has been needed. Still sharp for anything I throw at it (walnut, maple, cherry, oak, sapele, etc.)

6) How is the Kapex in the power department. Does she bog cutting hardwood?
  --> I've cut 3" x 3" solid oak with no issue. 
TS55REQ, CT26, MFT/3, OF1400, ETS150/3, KAPEX120, T18, Centrotec Installer Set, Domino 500, SysLite and RO90

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 381
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2022, 04:35 AM »
I think the only way you’re ever going to properly assess the inline handle (the most contentious part of the design for many) is to try it out for yourself. I know that might take some effort and some mileage, but I would personally go that way rather than ordering it, taking delivery, unpacking it, trying it, hating it, repacking it - and then having to pay hefty shipping costs back to where it came from.

I do a lot of site work, sometimes alongside other carpenters, and I got lucky. I showed up at a job to find a guy using a Kapex, so I set up my 12” DeWalt and we swapped saws for the day so I could give it a proper tryout. It’s a truly lovely saw with some great features. I spent a lot of the day cutting baseboards, crowns, trims etc. The machine’s bevel adjustment is very, very clever, and the cut accuracy is easily as good as anything I’ve used. The dust extraction is class-leading for a mitre saw, and it also has some other distinct advantages, such as less weight - important when the site’s van park is 100 metres away from the job and there are then three flights of stairs to get to where you’re working.

But for me - that handle was a total ‘no’. Based on constant usage for a whole day, I realised that I’d never be able to live with it on an all-day-every-day basis. I also didn’t care for the somewhat flimsy stand, and was also disappointed to discover that the baseplate wouldn’t take the yellow DeWalt stand clamps so I could mount it on my stand. Most of the material I use comes in 3.9m, 4.2m, 4.8m or 5.4m lengths, so the DeWalt stand’s extending wings are mandatory in my world. I also much preferred the shadow line because it shows you exactly where the outer edge of the blade tooth is going to land.

But we’re all different - and that was just my personal experience based solely on the kind of site work I often do away from the workshop. If I was an occasional user and the saw was stationary up against a workshop wall,  it would maybe have been a different story. Blade wear - I have to change blades every two weeks because of the sheer number of cuts I make - I’ve got around 20 x 96-tooth Freuds in a constant cycle of being used or being resharpened.  The other guy hated my DeWalt, which just goes to prove that there’s no one-size-fits-all in the world of power tools. The Kapex has a very strong following on here so it obviously isn’t an issue for its multitude of super-happy users. As said, hands-on is the only way you’ll find out.

I think this guy pretty much sums it up for me;



Hope you get fixed up.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 06:43 AM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3861
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2022, 06:08 AM »
I’m a serious hobby guy but I build some serious stuff. I switched to the Kapex for two reasons. One, I could back the saw against a wall rather than have it stick out into the shop. Two, I could use it indoors due to its dust collection.

I use the lasers if I don’t need extreme accuracy. If I am trying for zero gap accuracy, I go with a pencil line. If I am cutting really hard wood, I listen to the saw. I can hear it tell me that I need to ease up on the cut. I’m still getting smooth cuts with the original blade after many years.  It is important to push the blade into the work parallel to the cut. You can get a bad cut if you push the handle off to the side with force. It is important to let the blade stop completely or you can launch a cutoff with amazing velocity. It’s accuracy and precision is awesome.

If I were doing framing or outdoor work that was really hard on a saw, I’d probably buy a big box saw.

Birdhunter

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2022, 10:02 AM »
I thought the handle would take getting used to over my DW with horizontal handle. It did take some getting used to. But in a short time I found that I really like it.

I found that actually using it and just playing around with it in a store are not the same.

One thing that made a difference was building my shop miter station a couple inches lower than I might normally have done. An inch or two on the height makes a big difference. I also discovered that when I use it I stand just a few inches more left or right than when I used a horizontal handle. Not much off center but a little. This makes a surprising difference and is something that I didn't notice when trying it out in a store. There is a tendency ( I think) to stand dead center in front when approaching the handle.

An advantage of the handle design is that I can go left or right handed without as much awkwardness. This difference will depend on the saw being compared to.

I love the lasers and have no interest in the shadow line. I find that I can use them and count them on the for accurate cuts. But this depends as much on the set up and calibration of the miter station as it does on the lasers themselves.

Some likes dislikes will definitely will be different between shop and site use.

Seth

   

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2022, 10:25 AM »
Snip.

I found that actually using it and just playing around with it in a store are not the same.

Snip.

An advantage of the handle design is that I can go left or right handed without as much awkwardness. This difference will depend on the saw being compared to.Snip.

Seth

 

Both statements are true, and that's why in the context of the DF500 vs 700, I tell people to try it long enough in a store (for example, lifting it up and down 50 times or more) to feel the difference. A 20 kg bag of water softener sounds not much, but when I have to move half a dozen of it from my garage down the stairs to my basement after I turned 65, it's a different story! (That's why some stores sell it in 10 kg packaging.)

Once in a while, I do need to use the handle with my left hand, and the switch position in the center of the handle makes it left-hand friendly, too.

Right handed or left-handed, a loose to moderate grip is all that's required to operate the Kapex. Last week within one hour, I cut over 150 parts, and my arm and wrist were not tired afterwards. Those who cut dovetails by hand know why a tight grip is not a good thing.

Here in my city, I do not know of any contractor (more than a dozen of them, including some I employed to do reno work in the past) using a Kapex as their on-site miter saw. Everyone seems to have a Dewalt, Bosch, Hitachi, etc. Reason? Money/budget. All the local school shops I've been to are equipped with the SawStop, but no Kapexes.


« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 10:32 AM by ChuckS »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2022, 10:31 AM »
A couple important notes on the video above.

      He says the lasers are not working. OK, but if they were working he would not need to lower the blade to the wood very often to see where it is going to cut. 

      Also, Kapex is opposite many (most ?) miter saws in regards to lowering the head without turning it on. He is doing it wrong and backwards for Kapex. If you depress only the safety button the head will not lower. If you press both safety and trigger it will start the saw. If you pull just the trigger on Kapex the head releases and lowers without the saw starting. He clearly does not know this and based on other saws would not expect it to be this way. If he did that negative would be removed from his negatives list. It is a non-existent problem.

    The blade lowering is important to note because the way he is doing it by pressing both slightly, a user might accidentally fire it up while playing around with the wood under the blade. Plus there is no need to do it that way. Just to reiterate ...... on Kapex it is trigger only to lower the head.  At least on the model he us using.

    Can anyone with a new model Kapex chime in on the head lowering procedure ?

   Seth

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 369
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2022, 10:56 AM »

Can anyone with a new model Kapex chime in on the head lowering procedure ?

The trigger on my 2021-07 Kapex 120 has two positions.  The first position releases the head, and no matter how much I squeeze it, the motor will not turn on.  If I press the thumb button, the trigger can move to the second position and the motor will turn on.  The safety button on the top of the handle prevents the trigger from starting the motor unless it is held down long enough for the trigger to get past the first stop.

For what it's worth, I replaced my DWS780 with the Kapex solely for the dust control.  I hate the LASERs with a passion and miss the LED shadow line.  The KS 60 has a LED option, so why not one for the KS 120?

I never had a problem with the Kapex handle, and don't think I had any transition issues.  Except for the shadow line.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2022, 11:06 AM »

Can anyone with a new model Kapex chime in on the head lowering procedure ?

The trigger on my 2021-07 Kapex 120 has two positions.  The first position releases the head, and no matter how much I squeeze it, the motor will not turn on.  If I press the thumb button, the trigger can move to the second position and the motor will turn on.  The safety button on the top of the handle prevents the trigger from starting the motor unless it is held down long enough for the trigger to get past the first stop.

Snip.

Based on such description (and memory), the EB and REB have the same trigger design.

Online Cheese

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2022, 11:45 AM »
I've owned mine for the last 7 years...couldn't be happier. I didn't know how well I was going to like the handle so I kept both of my Milwaukee sliders for a year just in case.  [tongue]

I originally picked up the Kapex because of its light weight so it was easy to move it outdoors when I needed it for framing or siding.

The lasers are ok for general use, however for repetitive cuts I prefer to use some type of positive stop.

The hold downs are fantastic and I have one installed on each side of the saw but you must NEVER use both of them at the same time. One on each side but only use ONE at a time.

The dust collection is great and the accuracy is outstanding, better yet I've never had to readjust the saw. Once aligned...it stays aligned.

I'm still on my original saw blade and I also have an aluminum blade that works well.

The saw really is a joy to use.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1336
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2022, 01:10 PM »
Sold the very good Bosch I mention below for two reasons: Space demands behind the saw, which was huge. And I needed better capacity for crowns, baseboards and the odd cuts that makes upright feel better or easier. Didn’t want a monster like most 12” saws.
Portability matters to me - with the UG cart it’s a new world.

1) Do you really ever get used to that inline handle? It feels so awkward how you have to bend your wrist.
- # Having only had inline handle saws from DeWalt (15 years) and a Bosch GCM 8 SDE before the Kapex - I find the occasional side/horizontal handle odd. I embrace the fact that our muscular system are better suited to inline handles. Kapex 120’s handle is steep and odd the first times you use it.

2) How is cutting base board on the flat? My DeWalt can just barely cut 5.25” base standing up at 90 deg and can do a 45 degree cut if it’s less than an inch off the end. I don’t think I would mind cutting on the flat with the ease that Kapex can adjust. I would not even attempt on the Dewalt.
- # Presumably, it’s a matter of taste and difficulty - learning not to alter the saws in-line motion makes accurate cuts for most saws. Kapex is pretty stiff, but non good technique can mess up even on the Kapex.

3) How accurate are the lasers vs the shadow line? Has anyone added an aftermarket LED to cast a shadow?
- # Use the lasers only for rough cutting. Don’t think there is a shadow light option, even 3. Party. Tooth on/beside the pencil line only - except some crowns that need sneak up to the line.

4) Can you cut a 4” square post? (3.5” nominal)
- # European 98x98mm - Barely with spacer forward of the fence. So absolutely, and that was a relief!

5) Are you happy enough with the blade selection? They are a bit pricy but at least can be resharpened.
- # As others here, very happy with original blade (Mostly softwood though)

6) How is the Kapex in the power department. Does she bog cutting hardwood?
- # Sharp blade + let the saw do the job - it’ll cut anything.
As an addendum to that above: I have a KS 60 too, with blades that cuts very nice visually judging by the cut ends. But; slight smell of burnt wood and I feel slight resistance lowering the head.. these blades are dull, even though they look and feel ok.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 381
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2022, 02:49 PM »
It's always interesting and entertaining to read informed debates like this. Over here in the UK we have a product called 'Marmite'. It's a thick, black, sticky gloop in a jar which has been manufactured since 1902 in a town called Burton-on-Trent - which also happens to be England's #1 brewing town. Burton beers have quenched the nation's thirst for over a century - to the extent that whole trainloads of beer would leave Burton every single day during the 19th century behind a steam locomotive, and head down to London, to be unloaded and temporarily stored in a huge specially-built undercroft (like 688 huge cast-iron columns huge) under St.Pancras railway station in London. Those southern guys must have drank a LOT of beer;



Marmite is essentially a waste product from the brewing industry - it's the yeast-rich sludge and general mess which is left over after the beer's been siphoned out of the brewing vessels. It's this sludge - mixed with salt, vegetable extracts and other stuff, then put in a jar. It's spread thinly on bread or toast - an iconic British product which elicits one of two reactions - you either think it's amazingly delicious and you run to the store to buy it in bulk - or you just throw up and take a cab to the nearest poison centre. You either love it or hate it. No in-between. Marmite have cleverly used this divide to their advantage, running £multi-million 'Love It Or Hate It' advertising campaigns which, in the UK, have become as famous and well-liked as the Budweiser 'Whassup' commercials. There are also a multitude of 'Americans react to Marmite' videos on YouTube.

So imagine the ad below - but delete the Marmite jar and Photoshop in the Kapex handle instead;



Enjoy your saws guys - whatever they might be.

Postscript = I LOVE IT  [big grin]







« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 03:10 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline kitfit1

  • Posts: 13
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2022, 03:06 PM »
I actually hate it on toast. The odd thing is though, put in gravy when you cook a slow cooker shoulder of lamb................and it totally transforms it. Beef though......................nah, it ruins it  [wink]

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 381
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2022, 03:22 PM »
I actually hate it on toast. The odd thing is though, put in gravy when you cook a slow cooker shoulder of lamb................and it totally transforms it. Beef though......................nah, it ruins it  [wink]

100% agree @kitfit1 - although Marmite on toast is my personal #2 breakfast choice, bettered only by Weetabix and raisins. Look at the jar instructions and it says 'adds a tempting richness to soups, stews and gravies'. Works really well with slow-cooked belly pork too. Add half a jar of Patak's plum sauce and you've got heaven in a stewpan. Visit the forum's 'General Friendly Chat' section and hit up the 'What's Cooking' thread. Some brilliant chefs on here. Hope you're keeping well in Stourport mate, and that the Severn hasn't boiled away in the heatwave. All the best.

Apologies to the OP for the temporary Brit hijack. So anyway - the Kapex ...........

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 369
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2022, 03:29 PM »
Marmite = bin juice

You are correct, you either love it or hate it.  I hate it.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2022, 04:35 PM »
Based on the description I can totally see Marmite as an additive to stews , meat cooking, and the like.

Probably not a good choice to lubricate the Kapex turn table.  [huh]

  Seth

Offline kitfit1

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2022, 07:21 PM »
I actually hate it on toast. The odd thing is though, put in gravy when you cook a slow cooker shoulder of lamb................and it totally transforms it. Beef though......................nah, it ruins it  [wink]

100% agree @kitfit1 - although Marmite on toast is my personal #2 breakfast choice, bettered only by Weetabix and raisins. Look at the jar instructions and it says 'adds a tempting richness to soups, stews and gravies'. Works really well with slow-cooked belly pork too. Add half a jar of Patak's plum sauce and you've got heaven in a stewpan. Visit the forum's 'General Friendly Chat' section and hit up the 'What's Cooking' thread. Some brilliant chefs on here. Hope you're keeping well in Stourport mate, and that the Severn hasn't boiled away in the heatwave. All the best.

Apologies to the OP for the temporary Brit hijack. So anyway - the Kapex ...........

Keeping very well in Stourport thanks "Butch". In fact went into "town" earlier on tonight for a very rare Donna Kebab covered in chillie sauce.....................more chance of me boiling away now than the "Severn"  [eek] [eek]
Will defo look up the "what's cooking" thread  [thumbs up]

Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 259
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2022, 07:47 PM »
It's a great saw, if you don't mind the handle. (Doesn't worry me at all)
I thought dust collection was just 'ok', until I made a couple of cuts without it - it's really very, very good, for an exposed blade tool.
Super accurate, quality build. I replaced a Bosch Glide, which had an unacceptable amount of play in the angle detents due to plastic components.
The laser sucks!! I joke, it's ok, but I rarely use it.

Offline morts10n

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2022, 07:58 PM »
I had 2 Kapex burn up...one lasted 18 months. Only used by me cutting 3/4" material. Capacity of cut is awful compared to current Makita LS 1019. Dust collection and weight were a positive though.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2022, 09:50 PM »
I had 2 Kapex burn up...one lasted 18 months. Snip.

Both EB model, eh?

I had a false alarm with my Kapex EB last week after about an hour of cutting. The saw stopped working with no warning...no smell though. I checked (and reset) the auto-switch on the vac, and checked the panel, but finding nothing wrong.



I began to worry...but then noticed that my 20A wall outlet (GFCI & GFI), which I installed two years ago, also had a reset button. Pushing the "reset" button brought the saw back to life. Phew!

« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 09:55 PM by ChuckS »

Offline TomK_2

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2022, 10:01 PM »
This is really helpful feedback thanks everyone. For some reason I can never get notifications to work on this forum so I missed the responses pouring in :/

I will need to spend some more time at the store to see if I would get used to the handle. My wrist just doesn't like to move that way. I agree it would feel better if the saw were mounted lower to the ground but then I will tend to hunch over the saw which is just trading one problem for another. It is a really good idea to have a saw that works both left and right handed... they could have just put the horizontal handle in the middle the same way they have the vertical handle.

I know I would really miss the shadow line but having a laser on each side seems doable. Then again the shadow line also lights up your work area....

I've never had great luck with long bevel cuts on my DeWalt because of the blade deflection. With good hand discipline it can be done but it doesn't take much for that blade to start wondering off course. Are the Kapex rails just that much more solid that it doesn't have the same issue?

I had 2 Kapex burn up...one lasted 18 months. Only used by me cutting 3/4" material. Capacity of cut is awful compared to current Makita LS 1019. Dust collection and weight were a positive though.

I looked at that Makita a while back and was hesitant because it has a single laser which is isn't very useful. Why does the 40v XGT get the shadow line??? Apparently there are ways to hack something together.




Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2022, 10:13 PM »
Snip. Are the Kapex rails just that much more solid that it doesn't have the same issue?Snip.

I guess so.

I did an experiment: I cut several scraps (pine and walnut) at 45* vertically against the fence as miters. I repeated the same but this time flat on the turntable as bevels at 45*. The angles were all spot-on at 45*, but the bevels had no tear-outs because of the ZCI. My ZCF (fence) wasn't tall enough to cover the whole scraps when cut as a miter. So for any wide pieces, I now cut miters as bevels (at 45*).

As I said, the bevel control is easy to do by rotating the bevel adjustment knob. So the Kapex bevel is precise and accurate enough to cut case (long) miters (previously, I could only achieve that with the SawStop (and an L-fence set-up)).

« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 10:36 PM by ChuckS »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2022, 12:13 AM »
This is really helpful feedback thanks everyone. For some reason I can never get notifications to work on this forum so I missed the responses pouring in :/

I will need to spend some more time at the store to see if I would get used to the handle. My wrist just doesn't like to move that way. I agree it would feel better if the saw were mounted lower to the ground but then I will tend to hunch over the saw which is just trading one problem for another. It is a really good idea to have a saw that works both left and right handed... they could have just put the horizontal handle in the middle the same way they have the vertical handle.

I know I would really miss the shadow line but having a laser on each side seems doable. Then again the shadow line also lights up your work area....

I've never had great luck with long bevel cuts on my DeWalt because of the blade deflection. With good hand discipline it can be done but it doesn't take much for that blade to start wondering off course. Are the Kapex rails just that much more solid that it doesn't have the same issue?

I had 2 Kapex burn up...one lasted 18 months. Only used by me cutting 3/4" material. Capacity of cut is awful compared to current Makita LS 1019. Dust collection and weight were a positive though.

I looked at that Makita a while back and was hesitant because it has a single laser which is isn't very useful. Why does the 40v XGT get the shadow line??? Apparently there are ways to hack something together.

One of the reasons for the Kapex handle design is to help keep the user from exerting side to side and rotational force. The rails seem pretty solid but the handle is a contributing factor to the very true cuts.
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I know that some will never get used to or like the handle.

      However I find that when I actually use it as opposed to just grabbing it to get a "feel" for it, that I actual grab it differently. I just go ahead and make the cut without putting all that much thought into grabbing onto the handle. This is just one of those things that a person ends up doing with much less consciousness than when trying it out.

 This is not to knock the guy in the vid, he was genuinely showing how to hold / grab the handle. But he was really grabbing the handle with his full hand. It doesn't take that much of a full grasp. I pretty much use my fingers and thumb, but I don't really wrap my full hand around it until I am bringing the head forward and down. Hard to explain.

    Another big factor is just that different people have different hand, arm, wrist mechanics.

    Like I said I know that some will never like or get used to the handle. And I am not trying to convince everyone to like it. Just giving some (hopefully) useful insight into using the saw.

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   I don't get not using or liking the lasers (yes, maybe hard to see outside ). I set / adjusted mine so that the blade fills the space between them exactly. In other words if a place the laser line exactly on top ( overlayed on ) of a pencil line, the cut will leave exactly just the pencil line. Knowing this I can take the line , leave the line, or split the line. I can see exactly how much wood will be cut (anything showing between the lasers). Which makes it easy to shave 64ths if need be.

And it eliminates a lot of bending down to see where the blade touches the wood. Which largely takes care of the lower saw station height.

    @TomK_2   Can you buy it from a nearby store where it is easy to return?  You've got 30 days to find out if you hate it.

Seth
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 12:37 AM by SRSemenza »

Offline MikeGE

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2022, 05:23 AM »
   I don't get not using or liking the lasers (yes, maybe hard to see outside ). I set / adjusted mine so that the blade fills the space between them exactly. In other words if a place the laser line exactly on top ( overlayed on ) of a pencil line, the cut will leave exactly just the pencil line. Knowing this I can take the line , leave the line, or split the line. I can see exactly how much wood will be cut (anything showing between the lasers). Which makes it easy to shave 64ths if need be.

Seth, have you ever used a mitersaw that had the shadow line instead of the LASER?  The difference is night and day.  The shadow line leaves a crisp line where the blade is.  For me, the LASER is a line that is not crisp where the blade will be.  I understand how to use the LASER alignment, but will never appreciate it more than the LED shadow line.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2022, 10:00 AM »
   I don't get not using or liking the lasers (yes, maybe hard to see outside ). I set / adjusted mine so that the blade fills the space between them exactly. In other words if a place the laser line exactly on top ( overlayed on ) of a pencil line, the cut will leave exactly just the pencil line. Knowing this I can take the line , leave the line, or split the line. I can see exactly how much wood will be cut (anything showing between the lasers). Which makes it easy to shave 64ths if need be.

Seth, have you ever used a mitersaw that had the shadow line instead of the LASER?  The difference is night and day.  The shadow line leaves a crisp line where the blade is.  For me, the LASER is a line that is not crisp where the blade will be.  I understand how to use the LASER alignment, but will never appreciate it more than the LED shadow line.

I haven't used a shadow line. But the part I don't get isn't peoples the preference for the shadow line. I can understand a preference for one type or another.

 What I don't get is having lasers available and not using them. Or not using them because they are out of alignment, inaccurate, or etc.    At least on Kapex, my experience is the opposite .... they are accurate, highly adjustable, stay aligned, easy to see, work very well, I can count on them, don't have to bother lowering the blade.

Maybe some of it is old habits?

I described my laser alignment because I have had them adjusted to different parameters. Such as the laser being part of the kerf that gets cut. And found that they are not as good or intuitive when set that way. Not suggesting that people don't know how to use them in general.

I guess if it boils down to lasers or nothing, I'll take the lasers every time.

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

Seth

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2022, 11:21 AM »

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

Seth

My main 305mm saw (DWS780) uses shadow line - I also have a 190mm Makita LS0714 for small-scale trim work which uses a laser - so I have both. The principal advantage of SL is that you can literally see the sawblade's actual teeth silhouetted against the work surface, so you can see exactly where the tooth edge is going to land. Result = super-accurate cuts. Now - I know that the Kapex has two lasers which are set up either side of the blade - so in that respect, it performs exactly the same function as the SL, with a correspondingly identical degree of visual clarity and accuracy.

But .................. every other saw out there only has one laser - and that's what I have a problem with. So you line the laser up with your pencil mark. Which side of the line is the blade going to land? If the laser's set up so it lands on the right - what happens when I need to cut to the left of the line (as I very often do)? Sure - the laser on the Makita can be adjusted for either side, but it's a heck of lot of goofing around with a screwdriver every time you need to do a left-of-the-line cut. Plus - both of my saws use a selection of different blades whose teeth have slightly different kerfs. As a commercial joiner working to what are often very tight timescales, I just don't have the time to spend on adjusting lasers, test cutting, readjusting, test cutting again, and so on - let alone having to do that multiple times a day. So the laser's turned off on the Makita, and I lower the stationary blade to exactly meet the pencil mark before I cut. It's the only realistic way to avoid all of the above, get accurate cuts, and get the job done on time. If it had twin Kapex-style lasers, I'd be using them - 100%, no question.

So for me, Seth - it's not about liking one more than the other. It's about getting the job done as accurately and quickly as possible given the limitations of a single-laser machine, with the minimum downtime, and with no need for any adjustment at all. Ever.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 12:15 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2022, 12:24 PM »
I had 2 Kapex burn up...one lasted 18 months. Only used by me cutting 3/4" material. Capacity of cut is awful compared to current Makita LS 1019. Dust collection and weight were a positive though.

I looked at that Makita a while back and was hesitant because it has a single laser which is isn't very useful. Why does the 40v XGT get the shadow line??? Apparently there are ways to hack something together.

Probably because a lot of new stuff is only put in with new models while older ones are not revised.

But how often you need the laser on the other side? Move the blade down to check for those few cuts?

   I don't get not using or liking the lasers (yes, maybe hard to see outside ). I set / adjusted mine so that the blade fills the space between them exactly. In other words if a place the laser line exactly on top ( overlayed on ) of a pencil line, the cut will leave exactly just the pencil line. Knowing this I can take the line , leave the line, or split the line. I can see exactly how much wood will be cut (anything showing between the lasers). Which makes it easy to shave 64ths if need be.

Seth, have you ever used a mitersaw that had the shadow line instead of the LASER?  The difference is night and day.  The shadow line leaves a crisp line where the blade is.  For me, the LASER is a line that is not crisp where the blade will be.  I understand how to use the LASER alignment, but will never appreciate it more than the LED shadow line.

I haven't used a shadow line. But the part I don't get isn't peoples the preference for the shadow line. I can understand a preference for one type or another.

 What I don't get is having lasers available and not using them. Or not using them because they are out of alignment, inaccurate, or etc.    At least on Kapex, my experience is the opposite .... they are accurate, highly adjustable, stay aligned, easy to see, work very well, I can count on them, don't have to bother lowering the blade.

Maybe some of it is old habits?

I described my laser alignment because I have had them adjusted to different parameters. Such as the laser being part of the kerf that gets cut. And found that they are not as good or intuitive when set that way. Not suggesting that people don't know how to use them in general.

I guess if it boils down to lasers or nothing, I'll take the lasers every time.

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

Seth

Because they distrust what they don't understand? And if misaligned... kinda useless.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 12:27 PM by Coen »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2022, 04:06 PM »
Yeah, one laser would not be as good. Glad Kapex has two.

Seth

Offline MikeGE

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2022, 04:13 PM »
Because they distrust what they don't understand?

Hmmm...that's a bit condescending and insulting.  As an electrical engineer, I fully understand what a LASER is and how it is used.  I PREFER, repeat PREFER, the shadow line for its superior accuracy (in my opinion) over the LASER.

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Offline MikeGE

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2022, 04:44 PM »
I haven't used a shadow line. But the part I don't get isn't peoples the preference for the shadow line. I can understand a preference for one type or another.
...snip...

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

I don't know how to explain it better than woodbutcherbower, but i'll try.  Because the LASER is a beam of light, it has a width dimension, albeit small, on the wood to be cut; however, it has a bright center that rapidly fades at the edges.  The shadow line has no dimension and is the exact edges of both sides of the saw tooth.  If you see a the shadow on the wood, it will soon be gone when the blade passes through.  Anything that is not shadow will remain.

When I use a marking knife line to identify where to cut, I don't have to guess where I put the mark with the shadow line like I do with the LASER.  I only use the LASER when I'm approximating a cut.  Otherwise, I use the scale in my T-track and the stop block.

If you have never used a saw with a shadow line, then this explains why you don't understand.  If my DWS780 had better dust collection, I would have never replaced it with the Kapex 120.  However, the benefits of the improved dust collection far outweigh the loss of the shadow line.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2022, 09:03 PM »
I haven't used a shadow line. But the part I don't get isn't peoples the preference for the shadow line. I can understand a preference for one type or another.
...snip...

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

I don't know how to explain it better than woodbutcherbower, but i'll try.  Because the LASER is a beam of light, it has a width dimension, albeit small, on the wood to be cut; however, it has a bright center that rapidly fades at the edges.  The shadow line has no dimension and is the exact edges of both sides of the saw tooth.  If you see a the shadow on the wood, it will soon be gone when the blade passes through.  Anything that is not shadow will remain.

When I use a marking knife line to identify where to cut, I don't have to guess where I put the mark with the shadow line like I do with the LASER.  I only use the LASER when I'm approximating a cut.  Otherwise, I use the scale in my T-track and the stop block.

If you have never used a saw with a shadow line, then this explains why you don't understand.  If my DWS780 had better dust collection, I would have never replaced it with the Kapex 120.  However, the benefits of the improved dust collection far outweigh the loss of the shadow line.


   My thing is about why people don't like the lasers. Specifically the twin lasers on Kapex. It is not about shadow line vs lasers. And I understand the difference as explained perfectly well.

   People have said they don't like the twin lasers on Kapex even before the shadow line existed. I am interested to know why.  Personally I will take Kapex twin lasers over nothing, all day long.

   The fuzzy edge can be an issue so that is a reason.

   Seth
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 09:07 PM by SRSemenza »

Offline MikeGE

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2022, 05:24 AM »
   My thing is about why people don't like the lasers. Specifically the twin lasers on Kapex. It is not about shadow line vs lasers. And I understand the difference as explained perfectly well.

   People have said they don't like the twin lasers on Kapex even before the shadow line existed. I am interested to know why.  Personally I will take Kapex twin lasers over nothing, all day long.

   The fuzzy edge can be an issue so that is a reason.

   Seth

Now I understand.  If my first experience with a mitersaw had been one with a LASER, I might have thought it was the bee's knees, and two beams bracketing the blade area would definitely be better.  However, my first experience was with the shadow line and now I'm spoiled.

The KS 60 has an optional shadow line attachment, why not the KS 120?

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2022, 10:27 AM »
   My thing is about why people don't like the lasers. Specifically the twin lasers on Kapex. It is not about shadow line vs lasers. And I understand the difference as explained perfectly well.

   People have said they don't like the twin lasers on Kapex even before the shadow line existed. I am interested to know why.  Personally I will take Kapex twin lasers over nothing, all day long.

   The fuzzy edge can be an issue so that is a reason.

   Seth

Now I understand.  If my first experience with a mitersaw had been one with a LASER, I might have thought it was the bee's knees, and two beams bracketing the blade area would definitely be better.  However, my first experience was with the shadow line and now I'm spoiled.

The KS 60 has an optional shadow line attachment, why not the KS 120?

Probably because the 120 is all set up to built with lasers.

Optional attachment for the 120 would be nice. Especially if it could then have both. Maybe even allowing for lasers to be set one way and shadow line a different way. Not sure to the exact purpose. But maybe for different types of cuts.

BTW, is the shadow line easier to see in sunlight or does it disappear if the sun is at a bad angle?

Seth

Offline MikeGE

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2022, 12:34 PM »

BTW, is the shadow line easier to see in sunlight or does it disappear if the sun is at a bad angle?

Seth

I don't know.  I used my DWS780 in the garage at first and then in the basement after the shop was built.  However, the LED is bright, so I think the shadow would be visible.

Offline usernumber1

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2022, 02:22 PM »
can someone just post a picture of this shadow line i can't believe the praise. shadows have blurry edges as well

Offline JimH2

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2022, 02:45 PM »
I have saws with both and do not have a preference. Both work without issue for me.

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2022, 02:51 PM »
@usernumber1 I have another 350-400 mitre cuts to do on mouldings, midrails, crowns and 9” high baseboards for this panelling job tomorrow. It’s a big room and this photo just shows around 10% of it. I’ll take some SL pictures and post them when I get home.

Kevin
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 04:55 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2022, 03:03 PM »
can someone just post a picture of this shadow line i can't believe the praise. shadows have blurry edges as well

https://news.ohiopowertool.com/shadow-line-miter-saws-how-do-they-work/

I checked out a few miter saw shadow line videos, and the shadow lines were crisper and better than laser lines. For carpentry kind of task, either should be fine. Since their accuracy relies on eye sights, they may not provide the repeatability that is required for fine furniture grade builds.

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2022, 04:10 PM »

BTW, is the shadow line easier to see in sunlight or does it disappear if the sun is at a bad angle?

Seth

No light-based guidance device is going to work as well in bright ambient light as it does in low light, Seth (as you'll be well aware as an experienced woodworker) - so being perfectly honest, there’s probably not that much to choose between the two. But the SL is definitely more visible in bright light if you bend down and get a little closer to it. My last job before the current one was this hot-tub deck. Bright sunshine for a coupla days building the support legs and base framework. All accurate and tight with SL. But this is the UK - so it then rained constantly until the job was finished. Plastic bag over the saw’s motor, forever cleaning off wet sawdust sludge before it dries to wood-coloured concrete, and another few days making me glad I bought the Sys-Powerhub.

Kevin
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 05:52 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2022, 04:22 PM »
Because they distrust what they don't understand?

Hmmm...that's a bit condescending and insulting.  As an electrical engineer, I fully understand what a LASER is and how it is used.  I PREFER, repeat PREFER, the shadow line for its superior accuracy (in my opinion) over the LASER.

Nah, it's a bit of the truth. A lot of people won't accept innovation easily.

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2022, 04:27 PM »
Hey @TomK_2 - just to stop hijacking your thread and getting back on topic = 'space-saving for use against a wall' - have you seen this? Comes with dual lasers, too ........ and a proper handle  [smile]

32kg. I never thought I'd see something heavier than my 780. I don't think that build quality on this thing will be an issue ...



Kevin
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 05:03 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2022, 05:05 PM »
Hey @TomK_2 - just to stop hijacking your thread and getting back on topic = 'space-saving for use against a wall' - have you seen this? Comes with dual lasers, too ........ and a proper handle  [smile]

32kg. I never thought I'd see something heavier than my 780. I don't think that build quality on this thing will be an issue ...



Kevin

That Bosch has atrocious dust extraction. The Makita is way better in that aspect. Either the LS1019L (260 blade) or the LS1219L (305 blade). Both are space saving too in the same way the Kapex is.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 05:08 PM by Coen »

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2022, 06:00 PM »
@Coen So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kevin


« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 06:05 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2022, 06:01 PM »
@Coen So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kervin

Nope. But even the most basic review will show you the mess the Bosch leaves.

Specifically, GoTools TV has a video comparing the Bosch GCM 12 GDL to the Makita LS1219L. Dust extraction is night vs day.

EDIT:

German spoken.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 06:18 PM by Coen »

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2022, 06:20 PM »
@Coen So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kervin

Nope. But even the most basic review will show you the mess the Bosch leaves.

Fair point Mr.C - and your comment is 100% respected. I have no personal experience of the Bosch and therefore won't volunteer an uninformed opinion. What I would say however, is that almost every online review also mentions how useless the extraction is on the DWS780 (and they are all completely right) - but I bought one anyway, because it's a bombproof, industry-standard saw for a professional contractor like me, which is built like a tank and won't fall apart when the going gets tough. I'd personally place my trust in real-world hands-on experience, rather than what some random YouTube reviewer guy says, whilst comparing saws in a clean, warm, near-perfect  environment, shooting multiple takes and then editing to get the footage he needs to make the video interesting for the masses - whilst begging for ‘Like and Subscribe’ often before viewers have even seen the video. YT is, after all, the same platform which recently featured the well-known and highly respected Peter Millard completely junking the Lamello Zeta P2 after building panelwork which fell apart = because he was using totally the wrong connectors for the task. Experience has taught me that reality is best viewed through my own eyes - not someone else's.

So if I was standing in the OP's shoes - I'd try out the Bosch axial-glide anyway, because it's his money, and his right to decide if the extraction (or lack of it) is good enough to meet his needs - or if it's a total deal-breaker.

Kevin
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 07:57 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2022, 12:50 AM »
@Coen So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kervin

Nope. But even the most basic review will show you the mess the Bosch leaves.

Fair point Mr.C - and your comment is 100% respected. I have no personal experience of the Bosch and therefore won't volunteer an uninformed opinion. What I would say however, is that almost every online review also mentions how useless the extraction is on the DWS780 (and they are all completely right) - but I bought one anyway, because it's a bombproof, industry-standard saw for a professional contractor like me, which is built like a tank and won't fall apart when the going gets tough. I'd personally place my trust in real-world hands-on experience, rather than what some random YouTube reviewer guy says, whilst comparing saws in a clean, warm, near-perfect  environment, shooting multiple takes and then editing to get the footage he needs to make the video interesting for the masses - whilst begging for ‘Like and Subscribe’ often before viewers have even seen the video. YT is, after all, the same platform which recently featured the well-known and highly respected Peter Millard completely junking the Lamello Zeta P2 after building panelwork which fell apart = because he was using totally the wrong connectors for the task. Experience has taught me that reality is best viewed through my own eyes - not someone else's.

So if I was standing in the OP's shoes - I'd try out the Bosch axial-glide anyway, because it's his money, and his right to decide if the extraction (or lack of it) is good enough to meet his needs - or if it's a total deal-breaker.

Kevin

Well... it's not a random YouTuber  [wink]

And a video can show perfectly fine the difference in dust collection.

Also; try it where? I can't think of a single place I can try the Bosch in store.

Same applies to other brands btw. You would have to find some brand-specific demo day somewhere.

And with the size and weight of these things it's not like you are gonna buy it and just ship it back... expensive.

Offline Mini Me

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2022, 07:53 AM »
A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2022, 08:29 AM »
BOTH visible and invisible dust particles matter. No dust collection methods are perfect, and the goal is to try to capture dust -- visible as well as invisible -- at the source as much as possible. N95 masks offer another line of defence regardless of what miter saw we use.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 08:33 AM by ChuckS »

Online Cheese

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2022, 09:45 AM »
Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test.

Yes, there is someone on this forum that monitors the amount of dust produced and uses that information to actuate additional dust collection equipment. I thought the idea was really smart and liked the approach because it was so simple really. I just can't remember who the person is.  [sad]

FWIW...I'd also love to see the results of your Kapex test, I like the idea.  [smile]
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 12:02 PM by Cheese »

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2022, 11:59 AM »
@usernumber1 As promised. The pics show you how you can line up the very edge of the blade's tooth against your pencil mark.

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 369
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2022, 02:30 PM »
A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

I used the Dylos DC1700 Air Quality Meter in my shop when I had the DWS780 and a Bosch 125mm ROS (before I built out the second shop area).  I would take a break from cutting or sanding when the small particulate count (0.5 micron and larger) exceeded about 1,500 over ambient for the day, which was usually less than ten minutes of use for each.  I always used the ROS connected to a shop vac, but had a large shroud connected to my large DC system for the DWS780...it was mostly ineffective.

The reason I use the daily ambient as the starting point, is the Dylos does not differentiate between airborne pollen, burning toast, dog farts, or wood dust.  A particle is a particle.  There were days in the summer when the ambient reading anywhere in my house for the small particulate was over 15,000.

I have a ceiling mounted Record Power AC400 running on medium speed any time I was using the miter saw or Bosch ROS.  It would take anywhere between 20 minutes to an hour of inactivity to bring the particulate count down to the daily ambient level.  This meant working for a few minutes before taking a long break.  That part of my shop did not have windows, so it was not possible to vent to the outside.

After changing to the KS 120, connected to a dedicated CTL 36E and the ETS EC 150 connected to my mobile CTL 26E and Dust Deputy cyclone, I can now complete any of my tasks before the DC1700 reaches my trigger point.  I still use the AC400 on low speed anytime I'm using tools in that part of the shop.  All of my other work with the powered hand tools is done in a new part of my shop that has a window to the outside.  The KS 120 is still a bit messy, but the chips that I can see are not sneaking their way into my lungs to surprise me in ten years with respiratory problems.

Offline Econoline

  • Posts: 35
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2022, 03:03 PM »
These days I'm not as concerned about space saving, although, the Kapex 120 does fit on shallow benches against a wall, where other saws will not. My main concern is dust collection, and being able to see what I'm doing. The dust collection on most compound miter saws is dismal, the Kapex is better than some, but not great. Having the saw at the right height, having decent light, and a good zero clearance system makes site-work really enjoyable. The tall miter latch, and the depth limit make this saw better than most, IMHO...
E.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2022, 05:50 PM »
Snip.
After changing to the KS 120, connected to a dedicated CTL 36E and the ETS EC 150 connected to my mobile CTL 26E and Dust Deputy cyclone, I can now complete any of my tasks before the DC1700 reaches my trigger point. 
Snip.

The KS 120 is still a bit messy, but the chips that I can see are not sneaking their way into my lungs to surprise me in ten years with respiratory problems.

Good to know that the Kapex performs so well. For prolonged sessions, I tend to put on my N95 mask when using the Kapex or SawStop. I find that if I use the saws for just a dozen cuts or so, I see no traces of any dust particles on my eye-glasses afterwards. One exception is making edge cuts on the SawStop. The claimed 99% dust collection by SawStop doesn't apply in that kind of cut. (For the record, my SawStop is hooked to a dust collector as well as to a shop vac (for the overhead dust collection tube)).
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 06:18 PM by ChuckS »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2022, 06:42 PM »

I will need to spend some more time at the store to see if I would get used to the handle. My wrist just doesn't like to move that way. I agree it would feel better if the saw were mounted lower to the ground but then I will tend to hunch over the saw which is just trading one problem for another. It is a really good idea to have a saw that works both left and right handed... they could have just put the horizontal handle in the middle the same way they have the vertical handle.


    This suggests that you have a Festool store / dealer near enough to easily return a Kapex within the 30 day window if you didn't like it.  To answer your main question I would say yes Kapex is worth trying.

Seth

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2022, 07:14 PM »
A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Small stuff is even easier carried with the air since it's Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight, so if it catches big dust... it already cought the small dust.

This is the whole idea behind dust extraction for chiseling (See Bosch GDE Max); all the nasty small dust is extracted, all the big chunks still fall down.

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 251
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2022, 09:16 PM »
A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Small stuff is even easier carried with the air since it's Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight, so if it catches big dust... it already cought the small dust.

This is the whole idea behind dust extraction for chiseling (See Bosch GDE Max); all the nasty small dust is extracted, all the big chunks still fall down.

It is your health you are talking about, I would want proof if I was using one but you seem very sure of your facts. It is certainly contrary to all the available information I am aware of from many years of being involved in advising and selling dust extraction equipment for WW's.

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2022, 10:26 PM »
A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Small stuff is even easier carried with the air since it's Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight, so if it catches big dust... it already cought the small dust.

This is the whole idea behind dust extraction for chiseling (See Bosch GDE Max); all the nasty small dust is extracted, all the big chunks still fall down.

It is your health you are talking about, I would want proof if I was using one but you seem very sure of your facts. It is certainly contrary to all the available information I am aware of from many years of being involved in advising and selling dust extraction equipment for WW's.

What is WW?

Yes, I'm sure that smaller particles of the same density are easier caught by airflow than bigger particles.  [wink]

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2022, 12:09 AM »


  ^^^^^  WWs ^^^^     = woodworkers


Seth

Offline usernumber1

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2022, 05:21 AM »
@usernumber1 As promised. The pics show you how you can line up the very edge of the blade's tooth against your pencil mark.

thanks. yea i can see how people might prefer that. i need to calibrate my lasers; i've learned to compensate but the shadow line is auto correct

do you have to bring the blade down so you can see the sharp shadow - before you start cutting?
what i'm getting at is with laser, i can use two hands with workpiece, then switch to one hand hold and one hand cut with the saw.
i've done little tappy-tap-taps like this

do you hold the piece and move it while the other hand has to hold the blade lower?





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Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 381
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2022, 08:41 AM »
@usernumber1 As promised. The pics show you how you can line up the very edge of the blade's tooth against your pencil mark.

thanks. yea i can see how people might prefer that. i need to calibrate my lasers; i've learned to compensate but the shadow line is auto correct

do you have to bring the blade down so you can see the sharp shadow - before you start cutting?
what i'm getting at is with laser, i can use two hands with workpiece, then switch to one hand hold and one hand cut with the saw.
i've done little tappy-tap-taps like this

do you hold the piece and move it while the other hand has to hold the blade lower?

@usernumber1 You're welcome. The shadow line is visible when the blade's all the way up at the top at rest, but it starts to come into a better degree of focus when the blade drops to 3-4" above the material. I bring it all the way down to achieve the sharpest possible shadow edge just before I cut, to double-check the accuracy against the mark. It's a habit I just got into, I guess. With regard to material positioning - I usually slide the material along the saw bed until it's approximately in place as above. I'll grip the saw handle with one hand, lower it to get the shadow sharp, and then slide or tap the material with the other hand until the position is exact.

Kevin
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 08:54 AM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Mini Me

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2022, 09:12 AM »

Yes, I'm sure that smaller particles of the same density are easier caught by airflow than bigger particles.  [wink]

I'm glad you are sure.

Offline Laminator

  • Posts: 373
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2022, 11:41 AM »
I find my kapex lasers very accurate.  With a fine mark from a 0.5mm pencil, it is easy to cut up to the mark or take half the mark off or remove the pencil mark completely.  I have no experience with shadow lines but it sure looks like an excellent system. 
 I got used to the kapex handle and it works well.  Dust collection is a must as I'm mostly cutting in homes and offices that are occupied. The only thing I really don't like is the thought in the back of my mind that it is going to quit on me in the middle of a job... but, its working like a champ and I purchased it not long after they appeared on the market. (If it quits I'll either fix it or get another one).

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2022, 01:45 PM »
The discussion about laser lines vs shadow lines prompted me to look at my Kapex again. I've never used the laser lines for precision or repeatable cuts because it's never precise enough if the process relies on sighting (or the ability of my eye sights [eek]). Using the laser, I did some tests. First I fine-tuned the laser -- see blue lines:





Then using the fine-tuned laser, I cut a 10" and 9" blocks. The results?

Wow!





As I said, I won't rely on the laser to make repeatable cuts, but the laser on the Kapex is pretty good. 

About the question of worth trying.

If something is used often enough in my shop, such as the SawStop and DF500, and tip-top accuracy/reliability/efficiency are desired, the price is my least concern. I use a similar yardstick to decide what cars to own because I use them so much. (And as far as I know, the REB no longer has the smoking motor problem that some reported having on their EB Kapex.)




« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 08:50 AM by ChuckS »

Offline Laminator

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2022, 09:01 PM »
ChuckS, this is the kind of results I get with my lasers also.  One trick I use is to hook my tape on a board and let the laser line shine on the tape, then simply move the tape and cut, no marking necessary.  It is very precise indeed.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2022, 10:02 PM »
ChuckS, this is the kind of results I get with my lasers also.  One trick I use is to hook my tape on a board and let the laser line shine on the tape, then simply move the tape and cut, no marking necessary.  It is very precise indeed.

Sounds like a good "ruler trick!" (Of course, the advice of using the same tape for all the cuts still applies. [big grin])

Visually, the shadow line looks very promising. But I know of no other fellows whose miter saws use shadow line so I can try it.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 10:21 PM by ChuckS »

Offline Packard

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2022, 11:15 AM »
When I first started out in the picture framing business, my first miter saw was a Stanley manual miter saw with a Disston manual saw.  It was highly accurate, and the Disston saw, when sharp, cut quickly and easily on all types of wood.

What killed it was the fact that electric miter saws were cheaper than the precision Stanley unit.

You can find them in average condition for about 100.00 used. If you can find one in good condition, and if you can find someone to sharpen the back saw, it was lighter than any power miter saw and required no electricity.

If you are only cutting wood, it might suit your needs.

Stanley has since come out with a Chinese knockoff of that old saw.  But the original is doubtless of better quality. It used roller bearings to guide the saw.



<iframe width="722" height="406" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fIGx_N8WnOw" title="Stanley 358 Miter Box" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 11:27 AM by Packard »

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2022, 03:27 PM »
Interesting. So actually were some dumbass units you guys got rid off, but that stopped in the '50s?

it was lighter than any power miter saw and required no electricity.

Well, if you cut more than a few pieces you can convert that to kg of equipment per meter cut per day and I'm rather sure the electric miter saw wins in that competition.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 03:31 PM by Coen »

Offline Packard

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2022, 03:45 PM »
It was quiet (important in a retail situation) and very accurate.  But like I said, it cost more than the power chop saws, so it disappeared.  I often used it in conjunction with a Lion Miter Trimmer (now out of business, but the copies are pretty good—not so much the quality of the blades).

Of course we were cutting small profiles, and I rarely made more than 10 frames a day.  So the power saw did not hold much of an advantage. 

I did finally get a sliding table miter saw.  Quiet and accurate, it would also cut aluminum molding.  Effective dust collection built in. 

But about 5 times the cost of a chop saw—not cheap (but I still have it and it is my go-to for fussy miters).

Offline mino

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2022, 06:45 PM »
Yes, I'm sure that smaller particles of the same density are easier caught by airflow than bigger particles.  [wink]
I'm glad you are sure.
@Mini Me
I see Coen did not want to react while I think it is worth it for posterity. Please, do excuse my "arrogance" if any felt.

What Coen wrote is based on Newtonian physics - specifically aerodynamics coupled with laws on momentum/acceleration.

This is not really "high school stuff", that would be unfair. Would generally be a first year stuff at a uni physics course. So no rocket science, but also not something that can be expected to be casually known.

As the statement is based on generally-known laws of nature, there was, in theory, no need to "prove it". I disagree here. Though. This is no physics fans forum. Nor is meant to be.

-----
So, the argument goes along:
A particle of a certain density/materials:
 - will have its momentum (proportional to weight) increase with the 3rd power of its diameter, the same as its volume
      => translates to: 2x the size => 8x the momentum
 - will have its air resistance (aka how much it is affected by the air flow to the vac) increase with the 2ns power of its diamenter
      => translates to: 2x the size => 4x the air resistance

In other words, the ratio of the "force" pushing a particle to not-go-to-the-vac (aka its momentum) to the "force" pushing it to change-course-into-the-vac (its air resistance) is favoring the heavier particles to "win" and the smaller ones to lose.
The bigger particles momentum is high relative to the "wind" force so they have much bigger chance to "win" their freedom while the smaller particles stand little chance. This holds for any particles with the same density which is the case here. Due to this, the general rule of thumb is that "what catches the biggies catches also the small ones".

True, there can be pathological cases in complex scenarios where this is not always true - e.g. closing the "hole" on a TS 55 will cause more bigger ones be caught while the "secondary intake" which normally takes the small ones which escaped initially is lost, making the situation worse there.
Though a mitter saw does not have any such "multiple" exit points with only a narrow channel for dust complexity like a tracksaw has. So, for a physicist, just looking at the geometry, it is clear the general rule will hold here.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 06:55 PM by mino »
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2022, 08:16 AM »


That is one detailed explanation of my "Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight[tongue]

Offline Ebuwan

  • Posts: 108
Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2022, 10:37 AM »
I switched to Kapex from a 12" Dewalt NON-slider.

I don't miss the 12" capacity at all; maybe because it wasn't a slider, so not losing much anyway.

The handle; i thought it was weird at first, but a big advantage i found is if i ever had to cut something using my left hand on the saw; the Dewalt was great for using my right hand, but left hand was super awkward; and the motor took up a good bit of space on the one side; Kapex its the same clearance on both sides.

I also bought the mobile stand and the extension wings; I'm mostly just doing hobby stuff in the garage, but it is nice the couple times i've had to bring it into a room to do a bunch of molding.

Also, as mentioned the dust collection is by far the best of any saw i've seen. In the garage, i have 6" ductwork to my dust collector, and have it reduced with a very short run of 36mm to the kapex, and does a great job. I've wondered if getting a CT Extractor would make it even better, but it's so much better than the Dewalt hooked up to the same setup I haven't bothered.