Because they distrust what they don't understand?

Hmmm...that's a bit condescending and insulting.  As an electrical engineer, I fully understand what a LASER is and how it is used.  I PREFER, repeat PREFER, the shadow line for its superior accuracy (in my opinion) over the LASER.

Quote from: SRSemenza on July 20, 2022, 10:00 AM

I haven't used a shadow line. But the part I don't get isn't peoples the preference for the shadow line. I can understand a preference for one type or another.
...snip...

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

I don't know how to explain it better than woodbutcherbower, but i'll try.  Because the LASER is a beam of light, it has a width dimension, albeit small, on the wood to be cut; however, it has a bright center that rapidly fades at the edges.  The shadow line has no dimension and is the exact edges of both sides of the saw tooth.  If you see a the shadow on the wood, it will soon be gone when the blade passes through.  Anything that is not shadow will remain.

When I use a marking knife line to identify where to cut, I don't have to guess where I put the mark with the shadow line like I do with the LASER.  I only use the LASER when I'm approximating a cut.  Otherwise, I use the scale in my T-track and the stop block.

If you have never used a saw with a shadow line, then this explains why you don't understand.  If my DWS780 had better dust collection, I would have never replaced it with the Kapex 120.  However, the benefits of the improved dust collection far outweigh the loss of the shadow line.

   My thing is about why people don't like the lasers. Specifically the twin lasers on Kapex. It is not about shadow line vs lasers. And I understand the difference as explained perfectly well.

   People have said they don't like the twin lasers on Kapex even before the shadow line existed. I am interested to know why.  Personally I will take Kapex twin lasers over nothing, all day long.

   The fuzzy edge can be an issue so that is a reason.

   Seth

Quote from: SRSemenza on July 20, 2022, 09:03 PM

   My thing is about why people don't like the lasers. Specifically the twin lasers on Kapex. It is not about shadow line vs lasers. And I understand the difference as explained perfectly well.

   People have said they don't like the twin lasers on Kapex even before the shadow line existed. I am interested to know why.  Personally I will take Kapex twin lasers over nothing, all day long.

   The fuzzy edge can be an issue so that is a reason.

   Seth

Now I understand.  If my first experience with a mitersaw had been one with a LASER, I might have thought it was the bee's knees, and two beams bracketing the blade area would definitely be better.  However, my first experience was with the shadow line and now I'm spoiled.

The KS 60 has an optional shadow line attachment, why not the KS 120?

Probably because the 120 is all set up to built with lasers.

Optional attachment for the 120 would be nice. Especially if it could then have both. Maybe even allowing for lasers to be set one way and shadow line a different way. Not sure to the exact purpose. But maybe for different types of cuts.

BTW, is the shadow line easier to see in sunlight or does it disappear if the sun is at a bad angle?

Seth

can someone just post a picture of this shadow line i can't believe the praise. shadows have blurry edges as well

@usernumber1 I have another 350-400 mitre cuts to do on mouldings, midrails, crowns and 9” high baseboards for this panelling job tomorrow. It’s a big room and this photo just shows around 10% of it. I’ll take some SL pictures and post them when I get home.

Kevin

BTW, is the shadow line easier to see in sunlight or does it disappear if the sun is at a bad angle?

Seth

No light-based guidance device is going to work as well in bright ambient light as it does in low light, Seth (as you'll be well aware as an experienced woodworker) - so being perfectly honest, there’s probably not that much to choose between the two. But the SL is definitely more visible in bright light if you bend down and get a little closer to it. My last job before the current one was this hot-tub deck. Bright sunshine for a coupla days building the support legs and base framework. All accurate and tight with SL. But this is the UK - so it then rained constantly until the job was finished. Plastic bag over the saw’s motor, forever cleaning off wet sawdust sludge before it dries to wood-coloured concrete, and another few days making me glad I bought the Sys-Powerhub.

Kevin

Hey @TomK_2 - just to stop hijacking your thread and getting back on topic = 'space-saving for use against a wall' - have you seen this? Comes with dual lasers, too ........ and a proper handle 

32kg. I never thought I'd see something heavier than my 780. I don't think that build quality on this thing will be an issue ...



Kevin

@Coen So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kevin

Quote from: woodbutcherbower on July 21, 2022, 06:00 PM

@Coen So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kervin

Nope. But even the most basic review will show you the mess the Bosch leaves.

Fair point Mr.C - and your comment is 100% respected. I have no personal experience of the Bosch and therefore won't volunteer an uninformed opinion. What I would say however, is that almost every online review also mentions how useless the extraction is on the DWS780 (and they are all completely right) - but I bought one anyway, because it's a bombproof, industry-standard saw for a professional contractor like me, which is built like a tank and won't fall apart when the going gets tough. I'd personally place my trust in real-world hands-on experience, rather than what some random YouTube reviewer guy says, whilst comparing saws in a clean, warm, near-perfect  environment, shooting multiple takes and then editing to get the footage he needs to make the video interesting for the masses - whilst begging for ‘Like and Subscribe’ often before viewers have even seen the video. YT is, after all, the same platform which recently featured the well-known and highly respected Peter Millard completely junking the Lamello Zeta P2 after building panelwork which fell apart = because he was using totally the wrong connectors for the task. Experience has taught me that reality is best viewed through my own eyes - not someone else's.

So if I was standing in the OP's shoes - I'd try out the Bosch axial-glide anyway, because it's his money, and his right to decide if the extraction (or lack of it) is good enough to meet his needs - or if it's a total deal-breaker.

Kevin

A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test.

Yes, there is someone on this forum that monitors the amount of dust produced and uses that information to actuate additional dust collection equipment. I thought the idea was really smart and liked the approach because it was so simple really. I just can't remember who the person is. 

FWIW...I'd also love to see the results of your Kapex test, I like the idea. 

A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

I used the Dylos DC1700 Air Quality Meter in my shop when I had the DWS780 and a Bosch 125mm ROS (before I built out the second shop area).  I would take a break from cutting or sanding when the small particulate count (0.5 micron and larger) exceeded about 1,500 over ambient for the day, which was usually less than ten minutes of use for each.  I always used the ROS connected to a shop vac, but had a large shroud connected to my large DC system for the DWS780...it was mostly ineffective.

The reason I use the daily ambient as the starting point, is the Dylos does not differentiate between airborne pollen, burning toast, dog farts, or wood dust.  A particle is a particle.  There were days in the summer when the ambient reading anywhere in my house for the small particulate was over 15,000.

I have a ceiling mounted Record Power AC400 running on medium speed any time I was using the miter saw or Bosch ROS.  It would take anywhere between 20 minutes to an hour of inactivity to bring the particulate count down to the daily ambient level.  This meant working for a few minutes before taking a long break.  That part of my shop did not have windows, so it was not possible to vent to the outside.

After changing to the KS 120, connected to a dedicated CTL 36E and the ETS EC 150 connected to my mobile CTL 26E and Dust Deputy cyclone, I can now complete any of my tasks before the DC1700 reaches my trigger point.  I still use the AC400 on low speed anytime I'm using tools in that part of the shop.  All of my other work with the powered hand tools is done in a new part of my shop that has a window to the outside.  The KS 120 is still a bit messy, but the chips that I can see are not sneaking their way into my lungs to surprise me in ten years with respiratory problems.

Snip.
After changing to the KS 120, connected to a dedicated CTL 36E and the ETS EC 150 connected to my mobile CTL 26E and Dust Deputy cyclone, I can now complete any of my tasks before the DC1700 reaches my trigger point. 
Snip.

The KS 120 is still a bit messy, but the chips that I can see are not sneaking their way into my lungs to surprise me in ten years with respiratory problems.

Good to know that the Kapex performs so well. For prolonged sessions, I tend to put on my N95 mask when using the Kapex or SawStop. I find that if I use the saws for just a dozen cuts or so, I see no traces of any dust particles on my eye-glasses afterwards. One exception is making edge cuts on the SawStop. The claimed 99% dust collection by SawStop doesn't apply in that kind of cut. (For the record, my SawStop is hooked to a dust collector as well as to a shop vac (for the overhead dust collection tube)).

A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Small stuff is even easier carried with the air since it's Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight, so if it catches big dust... it already cought the small dust.

This is the whole idea behind dust extraction for chiseling (See Bosch GDE Max); all the nasty small dust is extracted, all the big chunks still fall down.

Quote from: Coen on July 22, 2022, 07:14 PM

Quote from: Mini Me on July 22, 2022, 07:53 AM

A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Small stuff is even easier carried with the air since it's Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight, so if it catches big dust... it already cought the small dust.

This is the whole idea behind dust extraction for chiseling (See Bosch GDE Max); all the nasty small dust is extracted, all the big chunks still fall down.

It is your health you are talking about, I would want proof if I was using one but you seem very sure of your facts. It is certainly contrary to all the available information I am aware of from many years of being involved in advising and selling dust extraction equipment for WW's.

What is WW?

Yes, I'm sure that smaller particles of the same density are easier caught by airflow than bigger particles.