Author Topic: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?  (Read 10389 times)

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Online MikeGE

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2022, 04:13 PM »
Because they distrust what they don't understand?

Hmmm...that's a bit condescending and insulting.  As an electrical engineer, I fully understand what a LASER is and how it is used.  I PREFER, repeat PREFER, the shadow line for its superior accuracy (in my opinion) over the LASER.

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Online MikeGE

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2022, 04:44 PM »
I haven't used a shadow line. But the part I don't get isn't peoples the preference for the shadow line. I can understand a preference for one type or another.
...snip...

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

I don't know how to explain it better than woodbutcherbower, but i'll try.  Because the LASER is a beam of light, it has a width dimension, albeit small, on the wood to be cut; however, it has a bright center that rapidly fades at the edges.  The shadow line has no dimension and is the exact edges of both sides of the saw tooth.  If you see a the shadow on the wood, it will soon be gone when the blade passes through.  Anything that is not shadow will remain.

When I use a marking knife line to identify where to cut, I don't have to guess where I put the mark with the shadow line like I do with the LASER.  I only use the LASER when I'm approximating a cut.  Otherwise, I use the scale in my T-track and the stop block.

If you have never used a saw with a shadow line, then this explains why you don't understand.  If my DWS780 had better dust collection, I would have never replaced it with the Kapex 120.  However, the benefits of the improved dust collection far outweigh the loss of the shadow line.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2022, 09:03 PM »
I haven't used a shadow line. But the part I don't get isn't peoples the preference for the shadow line. I can understand a preference for one type or another.
...snip...

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

I don't know how to explain it better than woodbutcherbower, but i'll try.  Because the LASER is a beam of light, it has a width dimension, albeit small, on the wood to be cut; however, it has a bright center that rapidly fades at the edges.  The shadow line has no dimension and is the exact edges of both sides of the saw tooth.  If you see a the shadow on the wood, it will soon be gone when the blade passes through.  Anything that is not shadow will remain.

When I use a marking knife line to identify where to cut, I don't have to guess where I put the mark with the shadow line like I do with the LASER.  I only use the LASER when I'm approximating a cut.  Otherwise, I use the scale in my T-track and the stop block.

If you have never used a saw with a shadow line, then this explains why you don't understand.  If my DWS780 had better dust collection, I would have never replaced it with the Kapex 120.  However, the benefits of the improved dust collection far outweigh the loss of the shadow line.


   My thing is about why people don't like the lasers. Specifically the twin lasers on Kapex. It is not about shadow line vs lasers. And I understand the difference as explained perfectly well.

   People have said they don't like the twin lasers on Kapex even before the shadow line existed. I am interested to know why.  Personally I will take Kapex twin lasers over nothing, all day long.

   The fuzzy edge can be an issue so that is a reason.

   Seth
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 09:07 PM by SRSemenza »

Online MikeGE

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2022, 05:24 AM »
   My thing is about why people don't like the lasers. Specifically the twin lasers on Kapex. It is not about shadow line vs lasers. And I understand the difference as explained perfectly well.

   People have said they don't like the twin lasers on Kapex even before the shadow line existed. I am interested to know why.  Personally I will take Kapex twin lasers over nothing, all day long.

   The fuzzy edge can be an issue so that is a reason.

   Seth

Now I understand.  If my first experience with a mitersaw had been one with a LASER, I might have thought it was the bee's knees, and two beams bracketing the blade area would definitely be better.  However, my first experience was with the shadow line and now I'm spoiled.

The KS 60 has an optional shadow line attachment, why not the KS 120?

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2022, 10:27 AM »
   My thing is about why people don't like the lasers. Specifically the twin lasers on Kapex. It is not about shadow line vs lasers. And I understand the difference as explained perfectly well.

   People have said they don't like the twin lasers on Kapex even before the shadow line existed. I am interested to know why.  Personally I will take Kapex twin lasers over nothing, all day long.

   The fuzzy edge can be an issue so that is a reason.

   Seth

Now I understand.  If my first experience with a mitersaw had been one with a LASER, I might have thought it was the bee's knees, and two beams bracketing the blade area would definitely be better.  However, my first experience was with the shadow line and now I'm spoiled.

The KS 60 has an optional shadow line attachment, why not the KS 120?

Probably because the 120 is all set up to built with lasers.

Optional attachment for the 120 would be nice. Especially if it could then have both. Maybe even allowing for lasers to be set one way and shadow line a different way. Not sure to the exact purpose. But maybe for different types of cuts.

BTW, is the shadow line easier to see in sunlight or does it disappear if the sun is at a bad angle?

Seth

Online MikeGE

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2022, 12:34 PM »

BTW, is the shadow line easier to see in sunlight or does it disappear if the sun is at a bad angle?

Seth

I don't know.  I used my DWS780 in the garage at first and then in the basement after the shop was built.  However, the LED is bright, so I think the shadow would be visible.

Offline usernumber1

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2022, 02:22 PM »
can someone just post a picture of this shadow line i can't believe the praise. shadows have blurry edges as well

Offline JimH2

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2022, 02:45 PM »
I have saws with both and do not have a preference. Both work without issue for me.

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2022, 02:51 PM »
@usernumber1 I have another 350-400 mitre cuts to do on mouldings, midrails, crowns and 9” high baseboards for this panelling job tomorrow. It’s a big room and this photo just shows around 10% of it. I’ll take some SL pictures and post them when I get home.

Kevin
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 04:55 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2022, 03:03 PM »
can someone just post a picture of this shadow line i can't believe the praise. shadows have blurry edges as well

https://news.ohiopowertool.com/shadow-line-miter-saws-how-do-they-work/

I checked out a few miter saw shadow line videos, and the shadow lines were crisper and better than laser lines. For carpentry kind of task, either should be fine. Since their accuracy relies on eye sights, they may not provide the repeatability that is required for fine furniture grade builds.

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2022, 04:10 PM »

BTW, is the shadow line easier to see in sunlight or does it disappear if the sun is at a bad angle?

Seth

No light-based guidance device is going to work as well in bright ambient light as it does in low light, Seth (as you'll be well aware as an experienced woodworker) - so being perfectly honest, there’s probably not that much to choose between the two. But the SL is definitely more visible in bright light if you bend down and get a little closer to it. My last job before the current one was this hot-tub deck. Bright sunshine for a coupla days building the support legs and base framework. All accurate and tight with SL. But this is the UK - so it then rained constantly until the job was finished. Plastic bag over the saw’s motor, forever cleaning off wet sawdust sludge before it dries to wood-coloured concrete, and another few days making me glad I bought the Sys-Powerhub.

Kevin
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 05:52 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2022, 04:22 PM »
Because they distrust what they don't understand?

Hmmm...that's a bit condescending and insulting.  As an electrical engineer, I fully understand what a LASER is and how it is used.  I PREFER, repeat PREFER, the shadow line for its superior accuracy (in my opinion) over the LASER.

Nah, it's a bit of the truth. A lot of people won't accept innovation easily.

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2022, 04:27 PM »
Hey @TomK_2 - just to stop hijacking your thread and getting back on topic = 'space-saving for use against a wall' - have you seen this? Comes with dual lasers, too ........ and a proper handle  [smile]

32kg. I never thought I'd see something heavier than my 780. I don't think that build quality on this thing will be an issue ...



Kevin
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 05:03 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2022, 05:05 PM »
Hey @TomK_2 - just to stop hijacking your thread and getting back on topic = 'space-saving for use against a wall' - have you seen this? Comes with dual lasers, too ........ and a proper handle  [smile]

32kg. I never thought I'd see something heavier than my 780. I don't think that build quality on this thing will be an issue ...



Kevin

That Bosch has atrocious dust extraction. The Makita is way better in that aspect. Either the LS1019L (260 blade) or the LS1219L (305 blade). Both are space saving too in the same way the Kapex is.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 05:08 PM by Coen »

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2022, 06:00 PM »
@Coen So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kevin


« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 06:05 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2022, 06:01 PM »
@Coen So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kervin

Nope. But even the most basic review will show you the mess the Bosch leaves.

Specifically, GoTools TV has a video comparing the Bosch GCM 12 GDL to the Makita LS1219L. Dust extraction is night vs day.

EDIT:

German spoken.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 06:18 PM by Coen »

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2022, 06:20 PM »
@Coen So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kervin

Nope. But even the most basic review will show you the mess the Bosch leaves.

Fair point Mr.C - and your comment is 100% respected. I have no personal experience of the Bosch and therefore won't volunteer an uninformed opinion. What I would say however, is that almost every online review also mentions how useless the extraction is on the DWS780 (and they are all completely right) - but I bought one anyway, because it's a bombproof, industry-standard saw for a professional contractor like me, which is built like a tank and won't fall apart when the going gets tough. I'd personally place my trust in real-world hands-on experience, rather than what some random YouTube reviewer guy says, whilst comparing saws in a clean, warm, near-perfect  environment, shooting multiple takes and then editing to get the footage he needs to make the video interesting for the masses - whilst begging for ‘Like and Subscribe’ often before viewers have even seen the video. YT is, after all, the same platform which recently featured the well-known and highly respected Peter Millard completely junking the Lamello Zeta P2 after building panelwork which fell apart = because he was using totally the wrong connectors for the task. Experience has taught me that reality is best viewed through my own eyes - not someone else's.

So if I was standing in the OP's shoes - I'd try out the Bosch axial-glide anyway, because it's his money, and his right to decide if the extraction (or lack of it) is good enough to meet his needs - or if it's a total deal-breaker.

Kevin
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 07:57 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2022, 12:50 AM »
@Coen So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kervin

Nope. But even the most basic review will show you the mess the Bosch leaves.

Fair point Mr.C - and your comment is 100% respected. I have no personal experience of the Bosch and therefore won't volunteer an uninformed opinion. What I would say however, is that almost every online review also mentions how useless the extraction is on the DWS780 (and they are all completely right) - but I bought one anyway, because it's a bombproof, industry-standard saw for a professional contractor like me, which is built like a tank and won't fall apart when the going gets tough. I'd personally place my trust in real-world hands-on experience, rather than what some random YouTube reviewer guy says, whilst comparing saws in a clean, warm, near-perfect  environment, shooting multiple takes and then editing to get the footage he needs to make the video interesting for the masses - whilst begging for ‘Like and Subscribe’ often before viewers have even seen the video. YT is, after all, the same platform which recently featured the well-known and highly respected Peter Millard completely junking the Lamello Zeta P2 after building panelwork which fell apart = because he was using totally the wrong connectors for the task. Experience has taught me that reality is best viewed through my own eyes - not someone else's.

So if I was standing in the OP's shoes - I'd try out the Bosch axial-glide anyway, because it's his money, and his right to decide if the extraction (or lack of it) is good enough to meet his needs - or if it's a total deal-breaker.

Kevin

Well... it's not a random YouTuber  [wink]

And a video can show perfectly fine the difference in dust collection.

Also; try it where? I can't think of a single place I can try the Bosch in store.

Same applies to other brands btw. You would have to find some brand-specific demo day somewhere.

And with the size and weight of these things it's not like you are gonna buy it and just ship it back... expensive.

Offline Mini Me

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2022, 07:53 AM »
A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2022, 08:29 AM »
BOTH visible and invisible dust particles matter. No dust collection methods are perfect, and the goal is to try to capture dust -- visible as well as invisible -- at the source as much as possible. N95 masks offer another line of defence regardless of what miter saw we use.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 08:33 AM by ChuckS »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2022, 09:45 AM »
Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test.

Yes, there is someone on this forum that monitors the amount of dust produced and uses that information to actuate additional dust collection equipment. I thought the idea was really smart and liked the approach because it was so simple really. I just can't remember who the person is.  [sad]

FWIW...I'd also love to see the results of your Kapex test, I like the idea.  [smile]
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 12:02 PM by Cheese »

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2022, 11:59 AM »
@usernumber1 As promised. The pics show you how you can line up the very edge of the blade's tooth against your pencil mark.

Online MikeGE

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2022, 02:30 PM »
A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

I used the Dylos DC1700 Air Quality Meter in my shop when I had the DWS780 and a Bosch 125mm ROS (before I built out the second shop area).  I would take a break from cutting or sanding when the small particulate count (0.5 micron and larger) exceeded about 1,500 over ambient for the day, which was usually less than ten minutes of use for each.  I always used the ROS connected to a shop vac, but had a large shroud connected to my large DC system for the DWS780...it was mostly ineffective.

The reason I use the daily ambient as the starting point, is the Dylos does not differentiate between airborne pollen, burning toast, dog farts, or wood dust.  A particle is a particle.  There were days in the summer when the ambient reading anywhere in my house for the small particulate was over 15,000.

I have a ceiling mounted Record Power AC400 running on medium speed any time I was using the miter saw or Bosch ROS.  It would take anywhere between 20 minutes to an hour of inactivity to bring the particulate count down to the daily ambient level.  This meant working for a few minutes before taking a long break.  That part of my shop did not have windows, so it was not possible to vent to the outside.

After changing to the KS 120, connected to a dedicated CTL 36E and the ETS EC 150 connected to my mobile CTL 26E and Dust Deputy cyclone, I can now complete any of my tasks before the DC1700 reaches my trigger point.  I still use the AC400 on low speed anytime I'm using tools in that part of the shop.  All of my other work with the powered hand tools is done in a new part of my shop that has a window to the outside.  The KS 120 is still a bit messy, but the chips that I can see are not sneaking their way into my lungs to surprise me in ten years with respiratory problems.

Offline Econoline

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2022, 03:03 PM »
These days I'm not as concerned about space saving, although, the Kapex 120 does fit on shallow benches against a wall, where other saws will not. My main concern is dust collection, and being able to see what I'm doing. The dust collection on most compound miter saws is dismal, the Kapex is better than some, but not great. Having the saw at the right height, having decent light, and a good zero clearance system makes site-work really enjoyable. The tall miter latch, and the depth limit make this saw better than most, IMHO...
E.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2022, 05:50 PM »
Snip.
After changing to the KS 120, connected to a dedicated CTL 36E and the ETS EC 150 connected to my mobile CTL 26E and Dust Deputy cyclone, I can now complete any of my tasks before the DC1700 reaches my trigger point. 
Snip.

The KS 120 is still a bit messy, but the chips that I can see are not sneaking their way into my lungs to surprise me in ten years with respiratory problems.

Good to know that the Kapex performs so well. For prolonged sessions, I tend to put on my N95 mask when using the Kapex or SawStop. I find that if I use the saws for just a dozen cuts or so, I see no traces of any dust particles on my eye-glasses afterwards. One exception is making edge cuts on the SawStop. The claimed 99% dust collection by SawStop doesn't apply in that kind of cut. (For the record, my SawStop is hooked to a dust collector as well as to a shop vac (for the overhead dust collection tube)).
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 06:18 PM by ChuckS »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2022, 06:42 PM »

I will need to spend some more time at the store to see if I would get used to the handle. My wrist just doesn't like to move that way. I agree it would feel better if the saw were mounted lower to the ground but then I will tend to hunch over the saw which is just trading one problem for another. It is a really good idea to have a saw that works both left and right handed... they could have just put the horizontal handle in the middle the same way they have the vertical handle.


    This suggests that you have a Festool store / dealer near enough to easily return a Kapex within the 30 day window if you didn't like it.  To answer your main question I would say yes Kapex is worth trying.

Seth

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2022, 07:14 PM »
A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Small stuff is even easier carried with the air since it's Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight, so if it catches big dust... it already cought the small dust.

This is the whole idea behind dust extraction for chiseling (See Bosch GDE Max); all the nasty small dust is extracted, all the big chunks still fall down.

Offline Mini Me

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2022, 09:16 PM »
A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Small stuff is even easier carried with the air since it's Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight, so if it catches big dust... it already cought the small dust.

This is the whole idea behind dust extraction for chiseling (See Bosch GDE Max); all the nasty small dust is extracted, all the big chunks still fall down.

It is your health you are talking about, I would want proof if I was using one but you seem very sure of your facts. It is certainly contrary to all the available information I am aware of from many years of being involved in advising and selling dust extraction equipment for WW's.

Offline Coen

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2022, 10:26 PM »
A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Small stuff is even easier carried with the air since it's Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight, so if it catches big dust... it already cought the small dust.

This is the whole idea behind dust extraction for chiseling (See Bosch GDE Max); all the nasty small dust is extracted, all the big chunks still fall down.

It is your health you are talking about, I would want proof if I was using one but you seem very sure of your facts. It is certainly contrary to all the available information I am aware of from many years of being involved in advising and selling dust extraction equipment for WW's.

What is WW?

Yes, I'm sure that smaller particles of the same density are easier caught by airflow than bigger particles.  [wink]

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2022, 12:09 AM »


  ^^^^^  WWs ^^^^     = woodworkers


Seth