Author Topic: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?  (Read 64416 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« on: July 15, 2008, 11:06 AM »
Guys,

      Just wanted to start a new thread as the discussion on this started on another topic (sort of).  I'm a little surprised to see no response from Festool on this  issue as it is a known problem and people seem to be out there floundering around trying to get their new $1,300 purchase to work as intended. 

      There are two ways that the miter gauge can scrape and be a problem. 

1)  The Miter lock does not completely release and drags on the BOTTOM of the miter gauge.  Festool's fix is to send out the bottom cam plate with different thickness (depth) of detents.  This appears to open up the clearance on the bottom if this is your issue. 

2) The tab that hangs down from the moving miter table rubs on the top outside edge of the Miter Gauge.  Festools answer for this is the remove the Cam Plate, Miter Handle, and scrape the paint off the tab so that it allows a little more clearance between that tab and the miter gauge.  This fix may have worked in a few cases.

   Either one of these problems can cause some scrape marks and burring on the miter gauge that can just keep causing a user problems.  You will need to sand and smooth out the Miter gauge.

  My saw has now suffered from both of these issues and scraping the paint and several layers of metal off the tab have not solved the rubbing issue.  It still scrapes pretty hard.  I will get my Replacement Kapex tomorrow but don't have my hope that it's going to be ok either.  I thought I just had a bad one but after seeing the other messages I know that's not the case now.

It's time to stop thinking this is just because of the tight tolerances and that taking off some paint will fix it.  I like others didn't have a problem with any contact at first.  Things were working well on the first day until about 11AM and then I couldn't hardly turn the table.  All contact at this point was on the bottom of the Miter Gauge.  I got the replacement plate the next day (Thanks Festool) and it Worked!  That is until about 11AM that day and then the Miter table started locking up again.  I thought it was the same thing but after taking off the miter handle and plate noticed that I now had severe contact at the top of the plate.  I took it all apart and scraped off Paint and metal about 4 times and couldn't get it to stop!  I'm now awaiting a replacement saw.  Something on the Miter Table is moving.  Unless this design is allowing temperature to really change these tolerances something else is amiss.  I don't believe it has anything to do with paint on a tab.  Why does it not rub and then after use start GRINDING and BINDING? 

 
     Christian?  Shane?  Can either of you give us users/customers a little information on this issue?  I am concerned and have invested a lot of time, money, emotion on this. 

Thanks,

Chris...

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2008, 11:27 AM »
Chris, thanks for taking the time to start this thread. I too hope to hear from the Festool staff on this issue. Please report back when you get the new saw and keep us posted on how it works days after initial use. Good luck.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2008, 12:03 PM »
Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.
The problem could be something on the opposite side from the miter scale.

Hygroscopic nylatron?  ;)

Offline Roger Savatteri

  • Posts: 507
    • www.savatteridesigns.com
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2008, 12:24 PM »
Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.
The problem could be something on the opposite side from the miter scale.

Hygroscopic nylatron?  ;)


I guess that would almost be an inside joke, very funny.
Los Angeles, California

Offline Per Swenson

  • Posts: 871
  • So far deep in rural nj, there are no Neighbors
    • Swenson&Swenson
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2008, 12:40 PM »
No, No joke.

nylatron

Ever wonder what the plastic in all the Festool line is?

per
Party like its 1929. It's the American way.


There outta be a law banning sesquipedalianism on

internet forums.

www.swensonz.com

Offline Roger Savatteri

  • Posts: 507
    • www.savatteridesigns.com
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2008, 01:01 PM »
No, No joke.
nylatron
Ever wonder what the plastic in all the Festool line is?
per

Good point, but.........

Actually, I was referring more to the hygroscopic part.

and the "joke" reference was in fact the truth,

to an earlier discussion - as to why the table slides on the "Joinmaker Pro",

could be a bit sticky in the first morning's use on a very humid or wet day.

10024-0


Roger


« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 01:09 PM by Roger Savatteri »
Los Angeles, California

Offline Per Swenson

  • Posts: 871
  • So far deep in rural nj, there are no Neighbors
    • Swenson&Swenson
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2008, 01:05 PM »
Sorry, I'am an ass.

P.
Party like its 1929. It's the American way.


There outta be a law banning sesquipedalianism on

internet forums.

www.swensonz.com

Offline Roger Savatteri

  • Posts: 507
    • www.savatteridesigns.com
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2008, 02:10 PM »

Thank you Rick,

I don't own a Kapex yet.

But your above memo is going into my "Kapex coming folder".

Roger
Los Angeles, California

Offline Forrest Anderson

  • Posts: 1072
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2008, 02:30 PM »
Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.

Michael

The Parts Diagram is on the Festool USA website, but isn't obvious!

Go to the Festool USA Parts Catalogue

Note that the Kapex isn't listed under Sawing! Instead, go towards the top of the page, where it says "You can browse our online parts catalog with diagrams" and click the link. This takes you to the US version of the Festool EKAT (Ersatzteilkatalog - Spare Parts Catalog).

On the left-hand side, click the + symbol next to "Sawing" to expand that category, and this will reveal an entry for "Sliding compound mitre saw". Click on the + symbol next to that entry in order to expand it, and you'll get an entry for "495649 - KS 120 EB 120V USA".

Click on that entry, and a parts diagram for the Kapex will appear on the right-hand side, complete with prices of individual parts.

Note that the diagram is spread over two pages - click the orange arrows at the top to navigate between the pages.

Forrest

Compiler of the Consolidated List of Festool Links - the place to go for Festool reviews, manuals, brochures and videos!

Offline Roger Savatteri

  • Posts: 507
    • www.savatteridesigns.com
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2008, 02:50 PM »
Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.

Michael

The Parts Diagram is on the Festool USA website, but isn't obvious!

Go to the Festool USA Parts Catalogue

Note that the Kapex isn't listed under Sawing! Instead, go towards the top of the page, where it says "You can browse our online parts catalog with diagrams" and click the link. This takes you to the US version of the Festool EKAT (Ersatzteilkatalog - Spare Parts Catalog).

On the left-hand side, click the + symbol next to "Sawing" to expand that category, and this will reveal an entry for "Sliding compound mitre saw". Click on the + symbol next to that entry in order to expand it, and you'll get an entry for "495649 - KS 120 EB 120V USA".
Click on that entry, and a parts diagram for the Kapex will appear on the right-hand side, complete with prices of individual parts.
Note that the diagram is spread over two pages - click the orange arrows at the top to navigate between the pages.
Forrest

So that's where the parts diagram is for the MFT/3!
You're 100% right.
It isn't obvious.

Especially when you look at the page below,
where the MFT 1080 and 800 links are living.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 02:52 PM by Roger Savatteri »
Los Angeles, California

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2008, 03:16 PM »
Oh, By the way. If you need to make an emergency repair and do not have time to wait for a plate, you can remove the two mounting screws and add 1-2 pieces of paper under the plate as a shim. On the same note, if your miter lock is too loose, then add a shim under the near end (closest to the operator's position when using the saw).

Thanks Rick, this little bit of advice adds a lot to helping me understand the problem.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2008, 03:18 PM »
Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.
The problem could be something on the opposite side from the miter scale.

Hygroscopic nylatron?  ;)


I guess that would almost be an inside joke, very funny.

Yep, just for you Roger  :)

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2008, 03:19 PM »
Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.

Michael

The Parts Diagram is on the Festool USA website, but isn't obvious!

Go to the Festool USA Parts Catalogue

Note that the Kapex isn't listed under Sawing! Instead, go towards the top of the page, where it says "You can browse our online parts catalog with diagrams" and click the link. This takes you to the US version of the Festool EKAT (Ersatzteilkatalog - Spare Parts Catalog).

On the left-hand side, click the + symbol next to "Sawing" to expand that category, and this will reveal an entry for "Sliding compound mitre saw". Click on the + symbol next to that entry in order to expand it, and you'll get an entry for "495649 - KS 120 EB 120V USA".

Click on that entry, and a parts diagram for the Kapex will appear on the right-hand side, complete with prices of individual parts.

Note that the diagram is spread over two pages - click the orange arrows at the top to navigate between the pages.

Forrest



Forrest you're a heck of a internet sleuth!

Offline Roger Savatteri

  • Posts: 507
    • www.savatteridesigns.com
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2008, 03:21 PM »
Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.
The problem could be something on the opposite side from the miter scale.

Hygroscopic nylatron?  ;)


I guess that would almost be an inside joke, very funny.

Yep, just for you Roger  :)


thanks Michael, now could you pass the beer down the bar? 
You know, ..............the Belgium Bud.
 :D


« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 03:25 PM by Roger Savatteri »
Los Angeles, California

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2008, 03:29 PM »
Oh, By the way. If you need to make an emergency repair and do not have time to wait for a plate, you can remove the two mounting screws and add 1-2 pieces of paper under the plate as a shim. On the same note, if your miter lock is too loose, then add a shim under the near end (closest to the operator's position when using the saw).

Rick's explanation may be Festool official stance on what is causing the scraping it's not what I experienced and it doesn't explain the many people that have NO issue with their saw and then DO have an issue.  Something changed drastically as mine went from not dragging top or bottom to almost stuck on bottom.  It became very hard to turn.  Then after changing the plate It had a lot of clearance on bottom and then started grinding at the top  and became very hard to rotate the table again.  It's not a slight oh it's designed to touch slightly kinda rub.  It had a lot of friction to a point of sticking and scraping the top of the miter gauge.  So it galled and rubbed on bottom after working fine, then after fixing that problem it went from working fine to sticking and grinding at the top.  I tried the removing the paint fix as suggested by Festool and it didn't work. 

So Rick although I really appreciate your response, your making light of the situation when you haven't heard what people have stated isn't helpful.  My saw did not exhibit normal behaviors as you might like everyone to believe and changing out the plate did not fix my saw.  What is the reason the miter gauge goes from NO contact top or bottom (I guess this is when it's abnormal, huh?) to rubbing either top/bottom or both?

So does everyone out there have rubbing at the top of their Miter Guage?  Is it a slight rub or something more?  Do you notice if it is worse sometimes than other times?  Is the noise a slight rub or more of a grinding sound?

Chris...       

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2008, 03:50 PM »
I was mostly kidding about the nylatron but if the guide plate (part #130) is nylatron
(and there is a good chance it is MDS filled nylatron but the parts diagram doesn't identify materials)

then high humidity could raise the whole miter table causing the spring plate (#115)
to rub on the bottom of the bottom of the miter scale.
 
Conversely, low humidity could cause the miter table to sit lower and the clamp tab
would scrape the top of the miter scale.




Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2008, 03:59 PM »
I believe Chris and Michael are on to something. My saw's miter movement was stiff out of the box, I wouldn't say if grinding, after some use in move more freely. I didn't give it another thought until late last week when using the saw outside in the heat some of the stiffness came back.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

(Rick, no problem with your using the picture.)
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Matt Antonucci

  • Posts: 76
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2008, 04:48 PM »
Brice,


   When I first got mine, I took it out of the perfectly undamaged box and it looked great.  Since I had a lot of company in for the 4th, I decided not to spend too much time with the saw.  Every now and then, I would sneak into the shop (2-car garage) and play with it a bit.  I made several cuts and the miter worked great...  I live in Atlanta where during the day time, the sun can get extremely hot...  On Saturday, I pulled the saw out of the shop for the first time and used it sitting directly on my Deck.  It worked great for a while, but as the day wore on, it got very stiff to adjust the miter position (physically grinding)...  At the end of the day, I put it back in the garage.  Yesterday, the miter could be adjusted freely while sitting in the garage...

   With the first saw that I tried at Woodcraft, the miter was easy to adjust initially...  While playing with it, we tilted the saw up to look at how the base was machined...  Immediately after that, the saw would scrape when adjusting the miter.  I am not suggesting anything specific, but it seems that there might be a correlation to how one handles it or what conditions it is used in...



Matt
 

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2008, 05:05 PM »
Miter saws have been around for more than 30 years now. There have been a lot of means devised to lock the miter. While most of the other features of miter saws have been improved or exceeded in the Kapex the miter lock isn't one of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most other miter saws lock onto something other than the miter scale?
And the miter scale is an independently attached reference?

On the Kapex, miter locking depends on three screws fitted though large holes. If those screws loosen you've got a lot of trial and error adjustment to do. (TIP, make a couple of reference miters while it is dead own to aid in recovering the saw setting so you can derive the miter scale setting from that)

Making the miter scale do double duty (critical duty) isn't an improvement IMO.

Offline Roger Savatteri

  • Posts: 507
    • www.savatteridesigns.com
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2008, 05:11 PM »

I believe Chris and Michael are on to something. My saw's miter movement was stiff out of the box, I wouldn't say if grinding, after some use in move more freely. I didn't give it another thought until late last week when using the saw outside in the heat some of the stiffness came back.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?

(Rick, no problem with your using the picture.)

I made a kidding, but real reference earlier about hygroscopic issues when Michael brought it up.

Here's what John Economaki, from Bridge City Tools said about a similar issue (about the rubbing) on a different piece of equipment, the "Jointmaker Pro".
True, we are talking about two completely different designs, what we should/could be focusing on is the hygroscopic issues with Nylatron......

(If in fact it is a Nylatron made part on the Kapex.)

"The Nylatron ways need to be adjusted over time--it's easy. In addition, this material appears to be slightly hygroscopic--I had a lengthy session on a Saturday, came in Sunday (it was raining) and my tables were snug--it took a couple of minutes to get them working like the puck on an air hockey table. We lube them with Teflon. They are designed to "give way" if somebody tries to do something outside of the scope of the tool--like try to crosscut a 16' plank of hardrock maple after losing a match on American Gladiators... "


Roger





« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 06:22 PM by Roger Savatteri »
Los Angeles, California

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2008, 05:45 PM »
Miter saws have been around for more than 30 years now. There have been a lot of means devised to lock the miter. While most of the other features of miter saws have been improved or exceeded in the Kapex the miter lock isn't one of them.

Well, you may be right.

Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most other miter saws lock onto something other than the miter scale?
And the miter scale is an independently attached reference?

There are so many designs out there it's hard to accurately answer this question, for the sake of this discussion I would have to agree.

Quote
On the Kapex, miter locking depends on three screws fitted though large holes. If those screws loosen you've got a lot of trial and error adjustment to do. (TIP, make a couple of reference miters while it is dead own to aid in recovering the saw setting so you can derive the miter scale setting from that)

Making the miter scale do double duty (critical duty) isn't an improvement IMO.

Your statement speaks for itself.


Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2008, 06:18 PM »

Rick's explanation may be Festool official stance on what is causing the scraping it's not what I experienced and it doesn't explain the many people that have NO issue with their saw and then DO have an issue.  Something changed drastically as mine went from not dragging top or bottom to almost stuck on bottom.  It became very hard to turn.  Then after changing the plate It had a lot of clearance on bottom and then started grinding at the top  and became very hard to rotate the table again.  It's not a slight oh it's designed to touch slightly kinda rub.  It had a lot of friction to a point of sticking and scraping the top of the miter gauge.  So it galled and rubbed on bottom after working fine, then after fixing that problem it went from working fine to sticking and grinding at the top.  I tried the removing the paint fix as suggested by Festool and it didn't work. 

So Rick although I really appreciate your response, your making light of the situation when you haven't heard what people have stated isn't helpful.  My saw did not exhibit normal behaviors as you might like everyone to believe and changing out the plate did not fix my saw.  What is the reason the miter gauge goes from NO contact top or bottom (I guess this is when it's abnormal, huh?) to rubbing either top/bottom or both?

So does everyone out there have rubbing at the top of their Miter Guage?  Is it a slight rub or something more?  Do you notice if it is worse sometimes than other times?  Is the noise a slight rub or more of a grinding sound?

Chris...       

Chris do you see any green around my name? I am not a Festool employee, so I really don?t appreciate it when someone is as disrespectful as you just were. I took time out of my morning to look into a problem that I wasn?t even experiencing, and I come back to be greeted by your attitude.

If the solution I presented does not resolve your problem, then you have a different problem and should contact Festool Service yourself. If the problem is as severe as you indicate, then you should have already returned your saw under the full factory warranty instead of whining about it.



Rick,

If you're offended by what I said you need to figure out a way to deal with that yourself.  Your statement of "people discussing this and presenting a lot of speculative repair information" is discounting what others are saying.  In your whole post you did nothing but think you had the silver bullet to solving the issue.  I'm assuming that you've never had this issue or replaced the part on your saw, so how exactly did you think you could say that what others was saying was speculative?  I would say your comments were speculative repair procedures since they didn't fix the issue.  If you read my post again you will see that I will be getting a new Kapex tomorrow.  Like I said it may or may not suffer from the same design or material flaw that my current one does. 



Chris...
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 06:27 PM by Chris Mercado »

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2008, 07:15 PM »
Okay guys let's not get sidetracked here this thread is too important for that.

I've talked to Chris on the phone twice now and I understand frustration he has gone through. He tried to fix the saw in the field (in 100+ degree heat) just to have the problem reoccur. He talked to David McGibbon and followed his advice so it's only fair that we don't dismiss his attempts to resolved this problem. Also keep in mind he is here to complain, he posted this thread to try to help others understand the issues involved and get the correct information to the users.

So if you own a US version Kapex I'd like to hear about how your saw is working. Is setting the miter stiff, is there a grinding sound? I want to hear from all of you even if your saw works perfectly (I especially want to hear from you if your saw works perfectly).
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2008, 07:26 PM »
When you guys post your experiences with the movement of the miter table
it might be helpful to include the climate conditions associated with any change
in how smoothly the table moves.

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2008, 07:37 PM »
Michael,

It's hot where I'm at.  We've been 100+ with around 30% humidity.  I thought it was just a heat related issue and that I was the only one with a problem at first.  It was 110-112
the first day I got it out and used it.  That's why I posted that poll trying to figure out where they are getting used.  I'm not so sure that's it's related to temperature now.


Chris...

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2008, 07:57 PM »
Some materials that are humidity sensitive are not necessarily temperature sensitive.
And some materials (like rubber) respond differently to temperature than you'd expect.

But, 110 degrees is extreme! Even the aluminum will expand significantly in that climate.

I'm just speculating that the guide plate is involved too but there doesn't seem to be a spring included
in the miter table to base connection so that guide plate must be a pliable synthetic low friction material
and there is a good chance that it has some kind of climatic sensitivity which could exceed the tighter tolerance
of the spring plate from the early supply of North American Kapex.

I'd also like to know more about the lever (part #115). In the parts diagram it is a complete assembly of I don't know what. Which way do you move the lever to clamp the spring plate to the miter scale?


I'm kinda butting in here since I don't have a Kapex but I just can't resist a good technical mystery.

Offline TahoeTwoBears

  • Posts: 194
  • Sugar Bear - South Lake Tahoe, California, USA
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2008, 08:40 PM »
Brice,

My saw is working fine (so far). I haven't used it extensively yet. Just cutting some base, so hopefully it won't become the problem that others are having.

Rick's comment about Festool changing the design must ring true or these issues would have cropped up elsewhere in the world before we got ours. It would be interesting to see the differences in design between the two.

Mike

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2008, 08:44 PM »
I just noticed the scraping on mine.  I used it the other day for the first time to do some casing.  It was indoors, probably mid '70's, and I didn't have any problems.  Today I was outside in my garage (in Phoenix) and it was over 100.  The scraping got worse the more I attempted to swing the saw.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Matt Antonucci

  • Posts: 76
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2008, 08:44 PM »
Hello Brice,


   For what it is worth, I just went out in my garage and checked the "condition" of my miter saw...  The temperature in there is about 80+-...  At first, the miter angle moved very freely...  I swung it all the way from the leftmost position (50 degrees) to the rightmost position (60 degrees) maybe ten times...  After about the 6th or 7th time, it started to bind again...  I looked at the "spring plate" and other than the fact that it rest on the miter scale, I do not see any obvious signs of it burring into the metal...

   One thing I wanted to point out is that the scraping/grinding on both my machine and the one at Woodcraft was most audible at the leftmost end of the travel (i.e., 50 degrees)...  I am being shipped a new spring plate and hope to have it by Friday...  One thing I do not understand is if it is the spring plate, why is it not binding more-or-less uniformly across the entire length of the miter scale.  It clearly seems to bind the most at the extreme ends of the travel...

   I will install and report back what the results are...



Matt

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2008, 09:16 PM »


     I have a goal to have this issue resolved one way or another within 30 Days from my purchase date.  To me that's the worst thing that can happen but I have to leave that option open to myself.  I think the saw has some wonderful features, cuts very well, and would be a pleasure to use if it didn't feel like you're swinging around something cheaply made.  I want the issues resolved.  I paid a lot of money for this as did others.  The Festool fix didn't on this one.  Maybe the other saw won't need it and if it does maybe it's the remedy.  My saw was checked prior to shipment, worked find, fine when I got it, and now doesn't.  I'm concerned that Festool hasn't made any statement on this.  I hope it's that they are feverishly working on a real solution and will let us know shortly.    I've got less than 3 weeks to get everything working well or have them come pick it up. 

Chris...

Offline rmoursund

  • Posts: 17
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2008, 09:23 PM »
My saw arrived with difficult miter movement and the scraping sound, and remained that way for several hours.  At first I was concerned that I might be damaging the saw because of the sound and difficulity of movement, however after several hours of use, it improved to the point that it was completely normal.  It made this return in stages.  It became easier to operate in the area from +/- 30 degrees, then from 50 to 45 degrees and finally throughout the whole range: 50 -60 degrees.  It worked perfectly the remainder of the day, only to partially return the next day.  When it started acting up again it was for the most part on the outside of the scale, primarily on the far right side of the scale.  Also, it quickly corrected itself again after moving the miter three or four times and as of now is again working correctly.
I live in the Houston area and yes it is hot and humid.  After delivery it sat outside in 97 degree heat and was brought into my air conditioned shop.  As mentioned above, after several hours of use it started working normally.  The next day (today), the problem momentarily return, but it had be in use several hours in this same air conditioned enviorment.  I personally don't think the weather is affecting the saw, but if it is, I think we have a very bad design problem that must be addressed.  I think its' fair to say we should expect equipment of this caliber to operate in 100 degree weather.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2008, 09:25 PM »
Hello Brice,


   For what it is worth, I just went out in my garage and checked the "condition" of my miter saw...  The temperature in there is about 80+-...  At first, the miter angle moved very freely...  I swung it all the way from the leftmost position (50 degrees) to the rightmost position (60 degrees) maybe ten times...  After about the 6th or 7th time, it started to bind again...  I looked at the "spring plate" and other than the fact that it rest on the miter scale, I do not see any obvious signs of it burring into the metal...

   One thing I wanted to point out is that the scraping/grinding on both my machine and the one at Woodcraft was most audible at the leftmost end of the travel (i.e., 50 degrees)...  I am being shipped a new spring plate and hope to have it by Friday...  One thing I do not understand is if it is the spring plate, why is it not binding more-or-less uniformly across the entire length of the miter scale.  It clearly seems to bind the most at the extreme ends of the travel...

   I will install and report back what the results are...



Matt

What about the humidity guys?


The spring plate clamps to the miter scale which is bolted to the tops of three posts in the base.
Apparently the posts at the ends of your miter scale are slightly shorter, or have less paint on them, than the center post.
Also, if there is any vertical bend in the miter plate the clearance between the spring plate and miter scale will change.




Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2008, 07:53 AM »
The scraping got worse the more I attempted to swing the saw.

This is the same thing I am experiencing. At first I thought I was getting the grinding on the top of the miter scale but it is on the bottom after taking a closer look. I have mine in the basement so the temp & humidity is pretty consistent. When I do the first miter of the day works as it should, after some swings of the saw it gets worst to the point that I start to move the MFT800. Would manufacturer date have anything to do with it?

Norm


Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2008, 09:08 AM »
Norm, there is a date on the sticker on the saw's motor housing and on the underside of the base. The most important date is on the underside of the rotating part of the base. The dates on my saw are 2/08 on the base, 4/08 on the motor and the rotating part of the base is 3/08.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2008, 09:35 AM »

      Can anyone figure out if this issue is going to have an affect on the accuracy of the saw?  I know we haven't determined whether or not and/or how much the rotating table is changing from the stationary table, but couldn't it change the accuracy?  When I get my new one today, I'm going to check clearances right out of the box and take some pictures, then I can monitor for changes if/when it starts grinding too.

Chris...

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2008, 09:46 AM »
If it comes down to returning the saw (I ordered mine online) will Festool send out a new one without waiting to receive the defective unit, or does it depend on the retailer?
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2008, 09:58 AM »


      Looks like we may have lost Festools direct relationship with users on this site.  Out of curiosity I checked status, and either they are just really busy or got tired of all the stuff and decided to bow out.  They went to being pretty active and involved to what now, "Lurkers"? 

Christian
Last Post 6/25/08

Shane
Last Post 6/13/08

Chris...

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2008, 10:12 AM »


      Looks like we may have lost Festools direct relationship with users on this site.  Out of curiosity I checked status, and either they are just really busy or got tired of all the stuff and decided to bow out.  They went to being pretty active and involved to what now, "Lurkers"? 

Christian
Last Post 6/25/08

Shane
Last Post 6/13/08

Chris...

Let's not speculate about why this is happening.

But whatever it is, inactivity is one of the reasons I'm considering closing the "Contact Festool" board and moving those posts into the "general" category.  I mentioned it in this discussion.

Stay in touch,
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Taos

  • Posts: 227
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2008, 11:06 AM »


      Looks like we may have lost Festools direct relationship with users on this site.  Out of curiosity I checked status, and either they are just really busy or got tired of all the stuff and decided to bow out.  They went to being pretty active and involved to what now, "Lurkers"? 

Christian
Last Post 6/25/08

Shane
Last Post 6/13/08

Chris...


Hi Chris,
Festool won't leave you hanging, trust me. They are extremely busy and actively pursuing a fix to the turntable. In light of this it is still the best miter saw by leaps and bounds.
Did you call Festool service yet? 888-337-8600 or 800-554-8741.

I know we have all been hot and bothered lately with the Kapex and the forum but rest assured customer service at Festool is FAR superior to any other vendor I have done business with.

Spike

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2008, 11:21 AM »
Several people have mentioned that there is more scraping at the far left or far right
(or both) of the miter table's travel.

Is that scraping of the underside of the miter scale or the top of the scale?

Most of the scraping issues seem to be associated with the spring plate scraping
the underside of the scale so if your scraping is on the top (the clamp tab) please say so.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 11:42 AM by Michael Kellough »

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2008, 11:30 AM »
Spike,

     I know they won't leave us hanging (for too long).  I've already done as Festool advised and it just didn't work for me.  It might for others.  I get my replacement today.  I really don't think they know yet what the issue is, or don't have a real fix in the pipe yet.  I feel the cam plate replacement is a stop gap.  They work great and then that happens.  Rick C's note says they changed it because " Festool was concerned that the miter lock would be too loose on some saws ".  huh?  You don't go and make manufacturing changes because you think something "would" be an issue.  You change because something "is" an issue and you have data to back it up.  Has someone had any luck finding issues people had across the pond?  There certainly must have been something that caused a change to this part.  Things aren't usually out of tolerance.  They are designed and manufactured within certain spec's.  Festool can manufacture within a .001-.002 tolerance all day long.  Something is changing on the saws during use.  What is it? 

Chris...

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2008, 11:55 AM »
Good Morning,
This is clearly an issue of concern, and it would be to everyone's advantage to get an official word on this, i.e., something from Festool.

The Kapex is a major new tool release, so I assume Festool is interested in communicating with customers about it.  Well, this is the time and place to do so!  How about it: is someone from Festool listening?

In the meantime, anyone experiencing this issue should report it here.  Also, please report the conditions in which you see the problem (particular usage, temperature, how long the saw was used before this problem arose, etc).

Stay in touch,
Matthew

PS: I do not own a Kapex, so I cannot report either way about the issue.  My only concern is making sure there is an explanation, and a resolution.
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2008, 12:06 PM »
Just a reminder that the official word is that you should report a problem with a new tool to your dealer and/or Festool right away before making any modifications.

After that, this is a great place to post your experiences and the conditions when issues occurred.

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2008, 01:36 PM »
Just a reminder that the official word is that you should report a problem with a new tool to your dealer and/or Festool right away before making any modifications.

After that, this is a great place to post your experiences and the conditions when issues occurred.

Just to be clear: when I said, "official word," I meant an explanation from Festool and their position on this issue.  No one should suggest making modifications to a power tool without technical knowledge from Festool.  Hence, the need for the official word from the company!

If Festool has been helping people through service calls, it would benefit all of us if they shared with the forum what they are telling people to do.  Tht way, they reach more people.

Stay in touch,
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 932
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2008, 01:41 PM »
this problem has been brought up in web forums in Australia and else ware. it seems to be a fault not unique to the USA.

Offline honeydokreg

  • Posts: 1674
    • honeydokreg@aol.com     email address
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2008, 04:11 PM »
I had posted a post about my post being deleted and removed bucause of my comment.  that WAS MY ERROR.  for those of you few who saw it before I realized it was my mistake, I apoligize.  I had posted a comment in another thread about the kapex, and thought  it was in this thread and had been deleted.  my fault!

sorry for the error.  I will not make another mistake again, just will make the cabinet smaller if I cut it short!
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2008, 08:04 AM »
I just received a call from the Festool rep. He said that it's a 10 min. fix. He will be replacing a plate that is out of tolerance and will sand down any burrs on the miter scale on Monday. Hopefully this fixes the problem.

Anybody have this done yet? Did it work?

Norm

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2008, 10:35 AM »
I just received a call from the Festool rep. He said that it's a 10 min. fix. He will be replacing a plate that is out of tolerance and will sand down any burrs on the miter scale on Monday. Hopefully this fixes the problem.

Anybody have this done yet? Did it work?

Norm

Norm, the OP tried that fix and it didn't work for him, let us know how it works for you.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2008, 11:04 AM »
This morning my saw is getting worse, it appears to be an issue with the clamping tab, the part that Chris removed the powder coating from. Here's a picture of the of the spring plate, you can see some wear but not much on the end of plate.
10062-0

Here's a pic of the miter scale, the top is wearing.
10064-1
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Roger Savatteri

  • Posts: 507
    • www.savatteridesigns.com
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2008, 11:51 AM »

Just out of curiostiy, as a temporary fix in the meantime.......has anyone with these issues tried some dry lube on the rubbing surfaces?

such as this......http://www.aerotechdesigns.com/whitelightninglube.htm


Los Angeles, California

Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2008, 11:52 AM »
Brice,

Thanks for pointing that out for me. I know I read it at some point just didn't remember the outcome. Same thing is happening to my saw in picture 2. I am going to call the Festool rep. and tell him to swap out saws instead of the plates.

Norm

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2008, 12:10 PM »

Just out of curiostiy, as a temporary fix in the meantime.......has anyone with these issues tried some dry lube on the rubbing surfaces?

such as this......http://www.aerotechdesigns.com/whitelightninglube.htm




Roger, lube isn't recommended because the parts that are scraping are the same parts that lock the miter, lube could cause the miter setting to slip during use.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3745
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2008, 01:14 PM »
I do not have a Kapex, nor have i had a chance to look one ver other than a very short fooling around with John Lucas's saw on Sunday.  As I have been reading thru all of the above posts, the only clue i can come up with (as I said, I have no experience with the saw) is the possibility that humidity is causing the Nylatron to swell. 

I have been to Germany several times. My wife and i usually go there during my slow time in mid summer.  Last week in July to second or third week in august.  It has been real hot there at times, but no matter how hot it has been, i have never been bothered by humidity.  In my experience, it sure does not get as humid there as it does here in Connecticut. 

My question is: Is Festool checking out this problem only from their factory in Stuttgart.  Stuttgart is very close the the area where I have visited.  Maybe they should try it out up around Hamburg or Frankfort, some place closer to the ocean where maybe it does get humid.  Or bring their testing over here.

Just a question.  Not considering it to be a solution.

Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2008, 01:20 PM »
I just replaced the spring plate on mine and I still have scraping although the movement isn't as coarse.  There was a lot of wear on the end of the spring plate, the picture doesn't really do it justice.  Brice, I have some wear on the scale as well although I don't think it's as bad as yours.  When I look underneath the saw at the new spring plate I don't see any clearance.  I don't know how this new plate will be any different from the old one.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2008, 01:53 PM »
Just got off the phone with John the Festool rep. He insists the new plate will solve the problem. He said it has to do with the bend in the plate. We shall see Monday. Hopefully, it does not get stuck over the weekend.

Norm

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2008, 01:58 PM »
Just got off the phone with John the Festool rep. He insists the new plate will solve the problem. He said it has to do with the bend in the plate. We shall see Monday. Hopefully, it does not get stuck over the weekend.

Norm

He can insist away all he wants.  The new plate didn't completely solve the problem on my saw.  I forgot to extend kudos to Festool for overnighting the plate to me.  It was my first opportunity to experience customer service throught Festool and they shined.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2008, 02:14 PM »
Just got off the phone with John the Festool rep. He insists the new plate will solve the problem. He said it has to do with the bend in the plate. We shall see Monday. Hopefully, it does not get stuck over the weekend.

Norm

He can insist away all he wants.  The new plate didn't completely solve the problem on my saw.  I forgot to extend kudos to Festool for overnighting the plate to me.  It was my first opportunity to experience customer service throught Festool and they shined.

This brings up another question, why doesn't this fix work on every saw? Do you reach a point of no return after X amount of use with the "bad" spring plate?
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Online greg mann

  • Posts: 1894
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2008, 02:47 PM »
I have refrained from posting on this because I felt I had nothing to add that wasn't pure speculation. Having said that, I am now going to engage in speculation. I do not think this is a design flaw. I think it is the result of unanticipated variability in a component. If it is the spring plate, and most evidence points in that direction, it could be caused from something as simple as a batch of plates placed upside down in a heat treat funace. Perhaps there is an instruction in the manufacturing process that was not followed. Perhaps there was no instruction to orient parts a certain way and this batch happens to the first ones done differently since day one, and now it is manifesting itself as a problem. Perhaps the problem doesn't occur until these same plates have been flexed a number of times and they begin to change shape. Perhaps none of these things have a darn thing to do with the real problem and it is yet undiscovered. Please notice that I used the word perhaps a lot because this is speculation.

I think the most important issues are how Festool solves the problem and how we decide, as a group, we want to be part of that solution. The evidence exists that they want to solve it quickly and with as little inconvenience for us as possible. I think we should concentrate on communicating as clearly as possible what we have done, what has worked, what has failed, ant the circumstances under which it has failed. Festool can then distill all of the information we can provide and get to the bottom of it.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 02:48 PM by greg mann »
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2008, 04:03 PM »
I do not have a Kapex, nor have i had a chance to look one ver other than a very short fooling around with John Lucas's saw on Sunday.  As I have been reading thru all of the above posts, the only clue i can come up with (as I said, I have no experience with the saw) is the possibility that humidity is causing the Nylatron to swell. 

I have been to Germany several times. My wife and i usually go there during my slow time in mid summer.  Last week in July to second or third week in august.  It has been real hot there at times, but no matter how hot it has been, i have never been bothered by humidity.  In my experience, it sure does not get as humid there as it does here in Connecticut. 

My question is: Is Festool checking out this problem only from their factory in Stuttgart.  Stuttgart is very close the the area where I have visited.  Maybe they should try it out up around Hamburg or Frankfort, some place closer to the ocean where maybe it does get humid.  Or bring their testing over here.

Just a question.  Not considering it to be a solution.

Tinker

Tinker it was me that suggested something like nylatron could cause such an intermittent loss of clearance in the miter table, if it is indeed related to climate.

However, that is pure speculation on my part. I have no idea if there is any nylatron anywhere in the Kapex.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2008, 04:51 PM »
Just got off the phone with John the Festool rep. He insists the new plate will solve the problem. He said it has to do with the bend in the plate. We shall see Monday. Hopefully, it does not get stuck over the weekend.

Norm

He can insist away all he wants.  The new plate didn't completely solve the problem on my saw.  I forgot to extend kudos to Festool for overnighting the plate to me.  It was my first opportunity to experience customer service throught Festool and they shined.

This brings up another question, why doesn't this fix work on every saw? Do you reach a point of no return after X amount of use with the "bad" spring plate?

So, the spring plate is stamped and presumably heat treated.
To maintain the proper clearance the plate needs to be the right thickness to start with.
The roller groove needs to be the right depth and or the right depth in relation to the surface of the plate.
The stamping process should not bend the plate or should bend it consistently.
The heat treating should not distort the plate or should do so in a consistent way as Greg pointed out.

Finally, there needs to be a foolproof test to determine if the part meets specs since there is no machining involved to ensure that it is a certain size.

If you can't make it perfect make it adjustable, is what I was taught.

Offline Tony M

  • Posts: 61
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2008, 05:00 PM »
Here' my take on this. If I am missing something please correct me, but everyone is focused on the black plate attached by 2 torx head screws. But on the sliding table, underneath is a tang that is molded into it that the plate reacts against  when locked. Mine has no clearance as far as I can see. Problem #1 maybe tang is too long. Or #2, look under the miter scale, there are what I would call tits ( one of Carlins favorite "cute" words) , that holds the scale above the rest of that part of the casting. Perhaps these are too high and need to be shaved down.  Of course this is all speculation. Thoughts?

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2008, 06:22 PM »
Tony, that's what I think, if you look at the pictures I posted this morning you'll see the "clamping tab" or what you call the tang is the issue, at least in part. The tab is scraping on the miter flange and the bottom where the "spring plate" contacts doesn't seen to be causing the problem.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Matt Antonucci

  • Posts: 76
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2008, 06:34 PM »
Hey guys,


   I got home from work today and there was a Festool box sitting at my doorstep...  It was the much awaited Spring plate...  I installed it about 1/2 an hour ago...  Just before installing it, I noticed that the dreaded grinding was present...  After installing it, the miter angle can now be adjusted as one would expect.  With out being too scientific, lets just say that the adjustment seems to be more free-flowing than it was even when I first took the SCMS out of the box...

   I am not yet willing to declare it a "total-success" as the unit worked pretty good when I originally started using the saw for the first time...  What I can say with absolute certainty is that it is significantly better than it was just before replacing the spring plate...  I will be using the saw a good bit this weekend (in the sun again) and will have a better feel for if it is corrected or not by Sunday evening...

   Thanks Festool for getting me the part (and throwing in a Torx screwdriver to boot)...



Matt

Online greg mann

  • Posts: 1894
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2008, 06:39 PM »
Brice, it is certainly possible the upper tang is contributing, but since it is not a part that moves relative to the miter plate (at least up and down) it doesn't seem to explain how this problem comes and goes. That sounds more like a moving part problem, hence the flat plate underneath. Or, most l;ikely it is a lack of total clearance between the two when in an unclamped state and the relative position of the miter plate to either. I know my logic is rather circular, sorry. A thought. If it is the upper tang, there should be some amount of undesirable drag with the bottom plate totally removed. What do you think?

Mark's post seems to point toward the plate. I do not have the problem so I am going to pull the plate and take some precise measurements of the relationship of the plate mounting surface to the locking surface. If my saw starts binding I will pull the plate and remeasure it. Nothing like before and after info.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2008, 07:15 PM »
Is this problem only on the USA version?
Has anyone from other countries have this problem?
How do i get the new part if i need it?
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Tony M

  • Posts: 61
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2008, 07:33 PM »
Just another piece of info, adding to my last post, I did pull the black plate off ( spring tab I think) and once I manipulated the table past the detents , I removed the lever assembly and still had scraping. Also, is gray the actual color of the material or is it powdercoated? It seems to me it is integral.

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2008, 08:11 PM »
Is this problem only on the USA version?
Has anyone from other countries have this problem?
How do i get the new part if i need it?

According to tallgrass, in reply #44 of this discussion, it has come up before in Australia, and other places.  I searched but couldn't find the references.  Maybe someone can find a link and we can see what they deduced in prior discussions.
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2008, 08:15 PM »
Greg, I'm at a total lose here, I don't know why the problem is intermittent. As Michael said it could be an issue with a nylatron part (like part # 130 or 131) swelling in the humidity. (I haven't taken my saw completely apart so I don't know what material those parts are).

Master, Matthew, I don't remember reading about this issue from over seas users. It may have come up, if it was an issue over seas it wasn't a wide spread problem are I would remember reading about it.

The good news about this problem is that we don't have to figure it out, Festool is taking care of the problem saws.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline honeydokreg

  • Posts: 1674
    • honeydokreg@aol.com     email address
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2008, 08:46 PM »
i set mine up today (my second one) in the direct sunlight all day.  the temp was 85-90 here in the charlotte area.  had no problem it worked great.   worked like a festool should.

so I will see again tomorrow it is supposed to be a little hotter.
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 932
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2008, 08:47 PM »
I have dug around on one of the forums i read and have dug up a couple of examples, that might be on point. thoughts? i have not done n exhaustive survey but there were a lot of teething problems on its release.



http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=56689

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=55941

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2008, 09:10 PM »
Tall, I just checked out your links. They don't directly refer to this same issue. Only one person mentioned a grinding sound but this is the same guy that had 10 units?? I do remember this guy and I believe he was talking about the bevel making the grinding sound (I also remember no one really believed he had 10 bad saws).

So, if you have an overseas model Kapex did you have any issues like the ones we are having here?
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2008, 09:11 PM »
i set mine up today (my second one) in the direct sunlight all day.  the temp was 85-90 here in the charlotte area.  had no problem it worked great.   worked like a festool should.

so I will see again tomorrow it is supposed to be a little hotter.

Thanks Kreg, keep us posted.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Taos

  • Posts: 227
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2008, 09:44 PM »
It was 84 Kreg...not 85-90  :P

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 932
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2008, 10:18 PM »
i live in s.cal usa. i just read other forums.  i seem to remember the topic i just have waded through all the threads to find out the exact analog. i will try too dig it up though. i am waitng for the fix before i buy mine. i can not wait.

Offline wombat

  • Posts: 1
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2008, 11:01 PM »
Hi, everyone I just returned my Kapex to Woodcraft Baltimore and exchanged it.  I've had the same problems with the scraping and almost broke my arm trying to turn the miter.  It started of working fine and at different times of the day it went from fairly firm movement to grinding.  I got them to take the new one out of the box at the store and tried it there. It worked perfect, It got a little tighter when I got it home.  I just went out and tested it with a few turns left and right,  and its  ok at the moment,  76 degrees  11PM and fairly humid.  After reading these blogs and noticing it getting a little tighter this afternoon I don't think the problem is solved.

Offline Matt Antonucci

  • Posts: 76
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2008, 12:08 AM »
I just went out and checked my Kapex.  It is midnight and the temp in the shop was 78 degrees...  Movement is still silkie smooth after replacing the Spring Plate this afternoon...  So far so good - boy I hope that fixed the issue once and for all...

Matthew, I have a suggestion.  I have read every post since I started the parent thread about this problem (Played with the Kapex Today - thoughts/questions...)...  So, I am really curious as to just how many people have this issue...  Can you set up a pole so we can track how bad this really is?



Matt

Offline honeydokreg

  • Posts: 1674
    • honeydokreg@aol.com     email address
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2008, 04:10 AM »
I just went out and checked my Kapex.  It is midnight and the temp in the shop was 78 degrees...  Movement is still silkie smooth after replacing the Spring Plate this afternoon...  So far so good - boy I hope that fixed the issue once and for all...

Matthew, I have a suggestion.  I have read every post since I started the parent thread about this problem (Played with the Kapex Today - thoughts/questions...)...  So, I am really curious as to just how many people have this issue...  Can you set up a pole so we can track how bad this really is?



Matt

a poll would not do any good if your saw does not work right.  a lot of saws have issues, and festool is working very had to solve the problem and to make it right so your saw will be up to festool's standards.  how this happened, who knows, it happened and believe me lot's of money is at stake and it will be solved.  after all festools are designed to solve problems.  now it is the other way around we are helping festool solve a tool problem!

and if the poll says 5% 20% or 35% it does not matter,  becuase again if your saw does not work right, it must be made right!
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2008, 08:31 AM »
Matthew, I have a suggestion.  I have read every post since I started the parent thread about this problem (Played with the Kapex Today - thoughts/questions...)...  So, I am really curious as to just how many people have this issue...  Can you set up a pole so we can track how bad this really is?

If you want, you can start a new discussion with a poll, then I can combine the two discussions.  But I don't want to start the poll myself.  It's up to you.
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Online Dan Rush

  • Posts: 594
  • Trim carpenter
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2008, 09:24 AM »
My Kapex has gone down also.  After a few hours work yesterday, all seemed good.  I was actually using it in the sun on a fairly humid day.  I loaded it up and went home, confident I dodged a bullet.  This morning (about 75 f ) the saw is frozen, can't even move it.  Interesting, it seems just the opposite of what some of the other guys are experiencing.

For what's worth, Dan

Offline vteknical

  • Festool Employee
  • *
  • Posts: 160
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2008, 10:05 AM »
I keep hearing Festool is working very hard from everybody except Festool themselves? 

They probably are working on the situation but let's not forget changes have to be worked in conjunction with Germany.
Currently much of Europe is on their 30 day holiday which really slows an already slow process. 






Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2008, 10:12 AM »
My Kapex has gone down also.  After a few hours work yesterday, all seemed good.  [b]I was actually using it in the sun on a fairly humid day.  I loaded it up and went home[/b], confident I dodged a bullet.  This morning (about 75 f ) the saw is frozen, can't even move it.  Interesting, it seems just the opposite of what some of the other guys are experiencing.

For what's worth, Dan

Dan, it was hot and humid when you locked the miter table down for transport?

I wonder if paint on the bottom of the clamp tab is stuck to the miter scale?

I wonder if there IS any paint on the bottom of the clamp tab  ;)

Do you see any movement of the spring plate when you move the locking level up and down?

Offline Roger Savatteri

  • Posts: 507
    • www.savatteridesigns.com
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2008, 10:36 AM »
Matthew, I have a suggestion.  I have read every post since I started the parent thread about this problem (Played with the Kapex Today - thoughts/questions...)...  So, I am really curious as to just how many people have this issue...  Can you set up a pole so we can track how bad this really is?
If you want, you can start a new discussion with a poll, then I can combine the two discussions.  But I don't want to start the poll myself.  It's up to you.
Matthew


I feel Matthew is right in not starting a poll about this Kapex issue.

If there were 15 Kapex's not working or 150 not working, I'm sure Festool would still find a fix/redesign for it.

And running a poll would just add more anxiety to a thread already obviously stating the issues.

I'm sure Festool would want this to be behind them as quickly as possible.

Returns of such a high ticket item has to start adding up sooner than later.

Roger


« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 10:46 AM by Roger Savatteri »
Los Angeles, California

Offline Matt Antonucci

  • Posts: 76
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2008, 10:43 AM »
My only reason for suggesting a poll was to try and see how pervasive this is...  Someone suggested this is only happening on a small number of saws...  But from this thread, it seems like it is more than just a small number...  I also thought it would be nice to know the number of people that are satisfied with its performance, not just those that were unsatisfied...  Finally, I thought it would be good to know how many people have tried the suggested fix and if it worked or not...

I read here that two people have tried the fix only to have the problem return...  As for myself, I did replace the Spring Plate yesterday evening and the saw's movement now swings "silky" smooth (it was still working great early this morning).  I have not had it in the sun yet, but should get that chance this weekend...  I just wanted to say that I have heard of this legendary  "customer service"  that Festool is known for but before this week, have never had the opportunity to experience it for myself...  I now see what it is all about.  Good luck trying to get anything even close to that level of service from the manufactures of most brands sold at the local Depot!  I can definitely see that Festool is taking this issue very seriously as I have been in contact with several of their tech's over the course of the last few days.  They appear to be very concerned with getting to the bottom of this issue and they assure me they will make this right.  I suspect we will hear something official soon as to what the issue is/was...


Matt

Online Dan Rush

  • Posts: 594
  • Trim carpenter
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2008, 10:43 AM »
Michael,

I was just out in the shop looking and poking around the saw.  (keep in mind I'm a pretty good carpenter, not so good at mechanics!!!)  

Yes, It was still hot and humid when I packed up last night.  Absolutely no problems.  I see no paint on the parts that seem to be grinding.  The (I think) spring plate (#115 in manual) is heavily grooved at the point where it guides against the indent plate. (#118).

Again, I see no paint or paint scrapings, I think this must be something more.  

Dan

Online Dan Rush

  • Posts: 594
  • Trim carpenter
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2008, 10:57 AM »
My dealer, Berland's House of Tools,( Yea gotta plug 'em)  just called to have me come in and exchange the saw.  So if there is anything else I can look at to help, mail fast.  Sorry, not set up for pics.

Have to love the service from Festool and their dealers!

Dan

Offline Frank Snyder

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2008, 11:00 AM »
Add me to the list of Kapex owner's experiencing this problem. I've only had mine a week and it was fine up until this morning. It has been hot an humid here (low 90's) this week for what it's worth. I just called Festool and they're sending me out a new plate. Let's hope this is the fix for this problem.

Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2008, 11:13 AM »
When I contacted my dealer about the problem, he knew about the problem. Said he had 3 to 4 saws that went bad. That is when Jogn at Festool contacted me. Tried to use the saw last night and almost tipped the table over getting it from45? to 0? had to use that much force. I do know that when aluminum burrs together it  is very difficult to separate it. I will not be using the saw over the weekend and will wait for the fix (hopefully) Monday.

Norm

Offline Frank Snyder

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2008, 11:25 AM »
Trying my hand at figuring out this problem...

When releasing the tension by raising the handle up, I found that if I raise the lever up all the way, it appears to over ride the indent and the plate bites the miter gauge causing it to scrape and seize. If I back it off (downwards just a bit) so that the roller mates with the indent, the plate releases and I can move the gauge again. Can anyone else with this problem try this? It helps if you get down below the saw so you can see when the roller is properly nested in its indent.

The handle and roller arm appears to be made of plastic (Nylatron?). Is it possible that the Nylatron is flexing and not maintaining the tension necessary to keep the plate from biting when it shouldn't? Could the warmth and humidity be causing the Nylatron to react this way?

Online Dan Rush

  • Posts: 594
  • Trim carpenter
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2008, 11:43 AM »
Frank,

I just replicated your experiment and came to the same result as you.  Don't know the cause and effect, but it may help when in the field and need just a couple of cuts to go home.

To all, not sure I buy into the heat/humidity thing.  We've had guys in the sun, in basements, and in between.  Sounds almost like a too - tight tolerance compounded by wear.  Just a thought.

Dan
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 11:46 AM by Dan Rush »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2008, 11:44 AM »
Michael,

I was just out in the shop looking and poking around the saw.  (keep in mind I'm a pretty good carpenter, not so good at mechanics!!!)  

Yes, It was still hot and humid when I packed up last night.  Absolutely no problems.  I see no paint on the parts that seem to be grinding.  The (I think) spring plate (#115 in manual) is heavily grooved at the point where it guides against the indent plate. (#118).

Again, I see no paint or paint scrapings, I think this must be something more.  

Dan

Dan, if your spring plate is scored you at least need to replace it.

The spring plate is the black piston rod shaped piece of (carbon spring?) steel that pushes up against the bottom of the miter scale thereby clamping the miter scale to the clamp tab above the miter scale. When you pull the lock lever up to unlock the miter table it pushes the end of the spring plate down. It should be harder than the stainless steel miter scale so it shouldn't be scratched methinks. More likely the miter scale is scratched.

Offline Frank Snyder

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #90 on: July 18, 2008, 11:49 AM »
Thanks for trying, Dan. I think that is the problem. Either the indents on the plate need to be spaced properly so that when the lever is raised up all the way, the roller is properly nested to release the tension. OR...a simple stop addition inside the housing the keep the lever from being raised beyond the indent might work too. I'm guessing that the new plates have the indent in the proper location.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2008, 11:56 AM »
Trying my hand at figuring out this problem...

When releasing the tension by raising the handle up, I found that if I raise the lever up all the way, it appears to over ride the indent and the plate bites the miter gauge causing it to scrape and seize. If I back it off (downwards just a bit) so that the roller mates with the indent, the plate releases and I can move the gauge again. Can anyone else with this problem try this? It helps if you get down below the saw so you can see when the roller is properly nested in its indent.

The handle and roller arm appears to be made of plastic (Nylatron?). Is it possible that the Nylatron is flexing and not maintaining the tension necessary to keep the plate from biting when it shouldn't? Could the warmth and humidity be causing the Nylatron to react this way?

Frank this description confuses me and I wonder if my description in my previous post is wrong?
It may well be since I've been relying on photos and the parts diagram.

It seems like if the roller comes out of the detent in the spring plate that the plate will be pushed even farther from the miter scale. What do I have wrong?

One thing I'm defiantly unclear on is, what engages the detents in the miter scale?
Is that the thing that is scraping when the lever is lifted too high?

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #92 on: July 18, 2008, 11:58 AM »
Trying my hand at figuring out this problem...

When releasing the tension by raising the handle up, I found that if I raise the lever up all the way, it appears to over ride the indent and the plate bites the miter gauge causing it to scrape and seize. If I back it off (downwards just a bit) so that the roller mates with the indent, the plate releases and I can move the gauge again. Can anyone else with this problem try this? It helps if you get down below the saw so you can see when the roller is properly nested in its indent.

The handle and roller arm appears to be made of plastic (Nylatron?). Is it possible that the Nylatron is flexing and not maintaining the tension necessary to keep the plate from biting when it shouldn't? Could the warmth and humidity be causing the Nylatron to react this way?

Frank this description confuses me and I wonder if my description in my previous post is wrong?
It may well be since I've been relying on photos and the parts diagram.

It seems like if the roller comes out of the detent in the spring plate that the plate will be pushed even farther from the miter scale. What do I have wrong?

One thing I'm defiantly unclear on is, what engages the detents in the miter scale?
Is that the thing that is scraping when the lever is lifted too high?

On mine it is.  Read my last post.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #93 on: July 18, 2008, 12:00 PM »
Never mind I don't know where my last post is!!  The little tab that engages the miter detents is what is scraping on my saw.  I can see it when I observe the swinging motion from underneath the saw and there is evidence of it on the inside of the gauge.  It has caused some visible scoring and when I ran my finger over the gauge there was quite of bit of loose material/burrs that came off.  BTW I replaced my spring plate yesterday.  While it rides smoother the scraping is obviously still there.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:01 PM by rnt80 »
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Online Dan Rush

  • Posts: 594
  • Trim carpenter
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #94 on: July 18, 2008, 12:03 PM »
Well, I just removed the spring clamp (#470665, in case my terminology is wrong) and flipped it over and reattached it upside down.  The saw works well with the detents, but will not lock between them.  I wonder if the plate could be bent VERY slightly to clear the indent plate?

Not a long term fix, but may help those stuck in the field.

FYI, Dan
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:10 PM by Dan Rush »

Offline Frank Snyder

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #95 on: July 18, 2008, 12:17 PM »
RNT80 - I was referring to the black spring plate on the underside which bites the bottom of the miter scale, not the spring tab for the scale indents. Try backing off your lever (push down about 1/8" from all the way up) then try swinging the saw around to see if this helps. I think the lever travels upwards too much.

Michael - I would also assume that if the roller traveled beyond the indent (towards you) that it would push the plate farther away from the scale surface. However, that does not appear to be the case here. It could have something to do with the plastic being used as a lever and flexing under warmer conditions?

On closer inspection, it appears the the plastic lever uses the underside of the housing as a fulcrum point. The underside of the housing is a large radius surface, which means that the fulcrum point would change during the movement of the lever, which would explain why the spring plate could spring back as the lever loses its mechanical advantage over the tension of the plate as the fulcrum moves farther away (as the lever moves farther upwards). And perhaps the plastic lever doesn't have the rigidity to resist the tension of the steel plate?

Dan - I wouldn't flip the spring plate over. You need the indents in the spring plate to lock it.

Disclaimer: I'm not an engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night  ;D
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:32 PM by Frank Snyder »

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #96 on: July 18, 2008, 12:40 PM »
I see what you're saying Frank.  I still get the scraping from that tab that engages the detentes.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Frank Snyder

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #97 on: July 18, 2008, 12:42 PM »
RNT80 - The tab the locks into the SCALE indents will still drag along the top of the scale. The problem is with the bottom plate (black steel).

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #98 on: July 18, 2008, 12:46 PM »
Is it supposed to drag so much that it scores the plate?  That doesn't seem right.  I"ve replaced the black plate on mine already and while it swings more freely there is still scraping.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:49 PM by rnt80 »
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #99 on: July 18, 2008, 12:55 PM »
If you lift the black tab just in front of the lock lever does that lift the "detent tooth" off of the miter scale?

Online greg mann

  • Posts: 1894
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #100 on: July 18, 2008, 01:20 PM »
Michael,

The spring plate works by locking when the cam is released into the detent area rather than rather than having the cam load the spring with pressure to initiate clamping. I find that there should be a little play in the cam when the miter is clamped as this allows the spring to exert its force on the miter plate. The condition desribing a secondary lockup after attempting to release the clamp was witnessed by me on a demo saw at my dealer. In that case the cam was overshooting the its position and allowing the springplate to re-exert pressure on the miter plate. By backing up the lever you could find a position that would hold the springplate away from its clamping position. It is counter-intuitive. Exerting pressure onto the springplate disengages the clamp, and visa-versa.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Online greg mann

  • Posts: 1894
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #101 on: July 18, 2008, 01:24 PM »
If you lift the black tab just in front of the lock lever does that lift the "detent tooth" off of the miter scale?

The black tab is a button you push down to lift the plunger away from the positioning slot for your standard locked positions. The irony to all this is that you really don't need the locking mechanism that is causing all the heartburn when you are using standard positions, 90, 45, 22.5, etc. Good technique dictates a consistent practice, however.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline tim cf

  • Posts: 3
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #102 on: July 18, 2008, 01:33 PM »
Same thing happened to me, after about 2 hr's it seemed to bind up. Thought saw dust was the issue.
I think Festool should send out a fix to all owners at this point.

Offline MiterMaster

  • Posts: 139
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #103 on: July 18, 2008, 04:04 PM »
Thanks Festool for getting me the part (and throwing in a Torx screwdriver to boot)...
Matt

I hope they send a Torx screwdriver with my replacement spring plate as well.  The tool they provided I'm finding strips the machine screws way too easily.

Mike
McDermott Interiors
Trim Carpentry by Design

Offline rmoursund

  • Posts: 17
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #104 on: July 18, 2008, 08:19 PM »
I just received a replacement Kapex from my dealer after complaining about the hard to adjust miter with accompanying scraping sound, and I got to say I was pleasantly supprised.  With the first saw, the miter adjustment was never as easy to adjust as with the replacement saw; and of course there was no scraping sound when moving the miter.  Note:  the miter on the first saw was very difficult to use from the start, and cycled in and out of operation.  As I mentioned in my previous post in this same thread, the temperature that the first saw was delievered in was 97 degrees with very high humidity.  This second saw was delivered at 96 degrees with the same high humidity(Houston, TX), so I really feel that temperature/humidity have nothing to do with this problem.
After using the saw to check for accuracy, the miter remained silky smooth and I am completely satisfied with it's operation.  Will this last?  I guess time will tell, but one thing's for sure, this new saw's miter operation is way above the first saw's miter operation, even when it was working properly.
I don't know if this is a newer factory saw, but I am tempted to remove the plate off of the new saw and try it on the first saw before returning it, or should I leave well enough alone?
Whatever happens, I think Festool needs to make the problem public so that we all know what is going on with these saws.

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #105 on: July 18, 2008, 08:27 PM »
If you lift the black tab just in front of the lock lever does that lift the "detent tooth" off of the miter scale?

Not all of the way.  It doesn't completely clear it.  Like I mentioned previously, that little tab is scoring the miter plate on my saw to the extent that there is quite a bit of material/burrs left on the scale.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #106 on: July 18, 2008, 08:41 PM »

I don't know if this is a newer factory saw, but I am tempted to remove the plate off of the new saw and try it on the first saw before returning it, or should I leave well enough alone?
.

What has your life's experience taught you about tempting fate?
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline honeydokreg

  • Posts: 1674
    • honeydokreg@aol.com     email address
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #107 on: July 18, 2008, 09:32 PM »
after being in the sun again today, as it was yesterday,.  it was a little hotter about 90- and my saw near the 3 pm mark.  it started to grind again but only on the left side...... and not on the right.

will see again on monday whats up again.
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline MiterMaster

  • Posts: 139
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #108 on: July 18, 2008, 09:39 PM »
after being in the sun again today, as it was yesterday,.  it was a little hotter about 90- and my saw near the 3 pm mark.  it started to grind again but only on the left side...... and not on the right.

will see again on monday whats up again.

Kreg, did you switch out your spring plate and are still having issues, or are you still using the original spring plate that came with your saw? 

I'm just curious as to if you have tried fixing the problem and it is still present, or if you have yet to take any corrective action at this point in time?

Mike
McDermott Interiors
Trim Carpentry by Design

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #109 on: July 18, 2008, 09:39 PM »
I just received a replacement Kapex from my dealer after complaining about the hard to adjust miter with accompanying scraping sound, and I got to say I was pleasantly supprised.  With the first saw, the miter adjustment was never as easy to adjust as with the replacement saw; and of course there was no scraping sound when moving the miter.  Note:  the miter on the first saw was very difficult to use from the start, and cycled in and out of operation.  As I mentioned in my previous post in this same thread, the temperature that the first saw was delievered in was 97 degrees with very high humidity.  This second saw was delivered at 96 degrees with the same high humidity(Houston, TX), so I really feel that temperature/humidity have nothing to do with this problem.
After using the saw to check for accuracy, the miter remained silky smooth and I am completely satisfied with it's operation.  Will this last?  I guess time will tell, but one thing's for sure, this new saw's miter operation is way above the first saw's miter operation, even when it was working properly.
I don't know if this is a newer factory saw, but I am tempted to remove the plate off of the new saw and try it on the first saw before returning it, or should I leave well enough alone?
Whatever happens, I think Festool needs to make the problem public so that we all know what is going on with these saws.

Probably not if a different spec spring plate made the difference.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 09:45 PM by Michael Kellough »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #110 on: July 18, 2008, 09:42 PM »
If you lift the black tab just in front of the lock lever does that lift the "detent tooth" off of the miter scale?

Not all of the way.  It doesn't completely clear it.  Like I mentioned previously, that little tab is scoring the miter plate on my saw to the extent that there is quite a bit of material/burrs left on the scale.

Then this is a second or possibly third issue, if the scraping of the clamp tab on top of the miter scale is a separate issue. I'd say it (clamp tab scraping) just another symptom of an incorrect spring plate.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #111 on: July 18, 2008, 09:54 PM »
after being in the sun again today, as it was yesterday,.  it was a little hotter about 90- and my saw near the 3 pm mark.  it started to grind again but only on the left side...... and not on the right.

will see again on monday whats up again.

Kreg, did you switch out your spring plate and are still having issues, or are you still using the original spring plate that came with your saw? 

I'm just curious as to if you have tried fixing the problem and it is still present, or if you have yet to take any corrective action at this point in time?

Mike

Kreg said this on another related thread,

"mine  that I bought from the first batch that came out, had bad scraping, took it back last friday and got a replacement from the second batch that woodcraft got in.  this one work very well no scraping and was doing crown all day swinging it back and forth.  seems like my problem has been solved.

quick fix?  $1,300.oo, scraping paint, etc.  no go get a new one. and festool can fix the returned ones and are already working on solving the problem,  these things happen sometimes with new stuff, but festool backs it up 100% and it is a great saw from a great company"

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #112 on: July 18, 2008, 10:15 PM »
I've never had a service issue with Festool before this.  Do I contact them about returning the saw or do I contact the dealer that I bought it from?  Additionally, how big of an issue is it that I didn't keep the box?
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline victor rasilla

  • Posts: 59
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2008, 01:38 AM »
I've had my kapex for over a week and have still not opened it yet but will be tomorrow to check it out for the problem, this whole thing has really got me down.  I've had my DW705 for more than a decade and it has given good hard working service to this day from cold to hot weather.  To think that the kapex is so touchy that you can only use it under certain mild or air conditioned circumstances or that hours must be spent fine tuning and filing parts or trying to come up with ways to make it work correctly seems absurd to me.  I consider the price of these tools to be the cost of superior engineering.  Hearing all this is very disappointing.  Didn't they use it before they made a whole bunch and shipped them out here? 

Offline honeydokreg

  • Posts: 1674
    • honeydokreg@aol.com     email address
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #114 on: July 19, 2008, 06:03 AM »
no i did not switch out the plate.  it was doing fine last weekend doing crown, and then brought it out thurs, fine.  friday fine till later in the day when scraping started.

my fix is to take it back and get another one.  but I will wait and use it a few more times in the sun to see if it gets worse or what.

i know my woodcraft has some plates in, or they are on the way.  so I will just see.  otherwise my saw works fantastic, the best is the quite startup, and not to load.  this way I can still hear led zepplin whole lota love on my bosch boom box while i cut.!
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline honeydokreg

  • Posts: 1674
    • honeydokreg@aol.com     email address
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #115 on: July 19, 2008, 08:56 AM »
just got back from the job I have been doing.  had to cut to small pieces.  the kapex has been sitting in their garage all night on the kapex stand.  the grinding is worse!  it is back to where it was on my first saw.

puzzeled.
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline Bob Marino

  • Posts: 3216
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #116 on: July 19, 2008, 09:57 AM »
after being in the sun again today, as it was yesterday,.  it was a little hotter about 90- and my saw near the 3 pm mark.  it started to grind again but only on the left side...... and not on the right.

will see again on monday whats up again.

Kreg, did you switch out your spring plate and are still having issues, or are you still using the original spring plate that came with your saw? 

I'm just curious as to if you have tried fixing the problem and it is still present, or if you have yet to take any corrective action at this point in time?

Mike

Kreg said this on another related thread,

"mine  that I bought from the first batch that came out, had bad scraping, took it back last friday and got a replacement from the second batch that woodcraft got in.  this one work very well no scraping and was doing crown all day swinging it back and forth.  seems like my problem has been solved.

quick fix?  $1,300.oo, scraping paint, etc.  no go get a new one. and festool can fix the returned ones and are already working on solving the problem,  these things happen sometimes with new stuff, but festool backs it up 100% and it is a great saw from a great company"

 My understanding, it's not the "batch" it's that all the saws coming out now have been checked to ensure that the plates are .15 mm or greater from the scales.

Bob
Former Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!

Offline Tony M

  • Posts: 61
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #117 on: July 19, 2008, 10:24 AM »
Bob, I had my plate and lever assembly off and it still scraped ( top side of scale).

Offline Eiji Fuller

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1087
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #118 on: July 19, 2008, 10:50 AM »
I'm afraid that the solution that has been come up with by festool is one that solves a problem that we do not have.

[u]The scaping is not caused by the locking tab and steel spring under the miter handle.[/b][/u]

The scaping is caused by the detent spring plunger rubbing on the stainless steel miter scale. The spring steel is harder than the stainless and creates a bur. Once that bur is removed by sanding the inside edge of the miter scale the scraping goes away.

Since that area of the miter scale is not part of the miter lock mechanism a little teflon lube can be applied.

The other problem is with the stiffness of the miter turn table.  The fix:

Replace the spring washer at the center post.

parts needed:

5/8 ID small outside diameter washer
5/16 ID nylon washer

Directions.

Remove inserts.
Remove center post nut. 
Remove center post washers. The spring washer is just a bit thicker than the 5/8ID small outside diameter washer.
Install the 5/8 ID small outside diameter washer in place of the spring washer.
Install 5/16 nylon washer
Place the top washer on top of the nylon washer and tighten the center nut.

PROBLEM SOLVED.


I had scaping. I had a stiff table. NO MORE.

Pics to come. ater breakfast.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 10:53 AM by Eiji Fuller »

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #119 on: July 19, 2008, 11:18 AM »
Eiji, there really is a problem with the miter locking mech. this is causing the scraping on some saws, what you are describing is a different issue all together. I do like your idea of to replace the spring washer in theory, however, we don't know what the long term effects that modification could have on the saw. It's an expensive tool and you don't want to do any modification that might void the warranty.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #120 on: July 19, 2008, 11:23 AM »
Eiji,

Glad you got yours working well.  I tried a little test on my replacement Kapex that about drove me insane.  Make a mark on the miter gauge several degree's from any detent position and just for fun use one arm and try to line your Kapex miter marker up with your line.  It's never going to happen.  2 hands are needed for any adjustment.  Eiji I'd like to hear more about the movement of your table now.  I usually takes a lot of effort to get it moving and then it breaks loose, moves quite a bit and you start over.  I thought it might be the guide plate material friction being too high.  I was at Lowes the other day just for fun and checked Dewalt, Makita, and Hitachi and they all moved very, very smoothly with just one hand.  Everyone one of those saws also don't have anything that scrapes, and when you release the detent lock feature they completely clear the miter gauge. 

More on my replacement Saw.
  I really want to thank Timmy C from Festool Junkie for all the help he's given me on trying to get things working (ok, and RW too!).  The new saw doesn't have what I'd call any scraping at this point.  I never noticed the miter detent scraping on my first saw since the other 2 scrape locations made so much noise.  The new saw isn't making noise at those 2 locations but the detent locking tab doesn't fully release.  It's not really causing an issue at this point and I might put some precautionary lube there to try and prevent a burr.  You can press the release thumb button as hard and you like and when moving the table side to side it scrapes a little and you can hear it slightly clicking in to each detent position.  I didn't use it for molding as much as I would have liked to yesterday but will for sure on Monday.  I did use the saw yesterday for simple 90 degree cuts and it of course was a pleasure to use.    I really, really like the saw and about every feature on it.  Of course I hope that some great changes are made to this miter locking feature, but it's a pretty solid performer.

Eiji,

Bring on the pics! 


Chris...   
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 11:27 AM by Chris Mercado »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #121 on: July 19, 2008, 11:36 AM »
Eiji, I appreciate your ingenuity but I have to echo Brice's sentiments.  The reality is that there are some changes that need to be made to the saw and I'm of the opinion that we (as customers) shouldn't have to make them.  Regardless of the price tag the defections that we're seeing with the saw are the responsibility of Festool.  I'm inclined to send mine back and wait for the release of Kapex Part 2.  I hate to sound like a grinch but for the money we paid there is a lot more expected of the product.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Matt Antonucci

  • Posts: 76
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #122 on: July 19, 2008, 12:08 PM »
Just wanted to also throw in another thing to consider before modifying the saw in any way.  There is the very real possibility that Festool might refuse service/return on owner modified saws, even for something as simple as a washer.  For $1,300 smackers, I would first call their repair guys and talk to them before taking anything apart.  Just my two cents...  I did and they could not have been a nicer bunch of guys to talk to...

So, I am on my deck working with the saw all day today in direct Atlanta sun light...  So far, it is working fantastic after replacing the Spring Plate...  The table turns very very nicely now and there is absolutely no scraping sound...


Matt

Offline MiterMaster

  • Posts: 139
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #123 on: July 19, 2008, 12:08 PM »
....It's an expensive tool and you don't want to do any modification that might void the warranty.....

I totally agree on this point - it is a VERY expensive saw and for the price we're all paying we should not be experiencing any of these issues.
McDermott Interiors
Trim Carpentry by Design

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #124 on: July 19, 2008, 01:32 PM »

The other problem is with the stiffness of the miter turn table.  The fix:

Replace the spring washer at the center post.

parts needed:

5/8 ID small outside diameter washer
5/16 ID nylon washer

Directions.

Remove inserts.
Remove center post nut. 
Remove center post washers. The spring washer is just a bit thicker than the 5/8ID small outside diameter washer.
Install the 5/8 ID small outside diameter washer in place of the spring washer.
Install 5/16 nylon washer
Place the top washer on top of the nylon washer and tighten the center nut.

PROBLEM SOLVED.


Eiji, thanks for pointing out that there is a spring washer in the miter table base connection.
I had missed it and that is why I had speculated that the guard plate might be made of a
somewhat compressible synthetic like nylatron. It is probably steel.

I still wonder why the scraping problem is often intermittent.

Just make sure your miter table and base are still coplanar.

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #125 on: July 19, 2008, 01:50 PM »
I've notice that my saw is also doing the "scraping".But it looks like it's comming from the top of the miter scale?
I can see a scrubbing like line along the edge of the miter scale.(about a 1/4" from the edge)i looked under neath and i notice a tab (part of the turning table)on top of the miter scale,that is use with that black piece that is under the scale in order to pinch the miter scale when you use the locking mechanism.
does that make any senses?
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Steve Jones

  • Posts: 405
  • Austin, TX US
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #126 on: July 19, 2008, 02:08 PM »
Seems to be becoming a more common problem as time goes on.

as a quick unofficial count, does anyone reading this thread who owns a Kapex that's been used for more than an hour or two NOT have the scraping problem?

I ask because I believe this is a design issue and believe it would be helpful to know the extent of the problem.
Steve Jones

AdapTableTool, Inc.
adaptabletool@gmail.com

Offline waynew

  • Posts: 69
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #127 on: July 19, 2008, 10:10 PM »
I'm based in Canada and purchased mine from Hafele. Today, for the first time I heard the dreaded screeching noise from heck (metal on metal). I thought it interesting that today I used it outside in the sun and it was a very hot and humid day, prior to this there were no problems whatsoever when it was being used indoors (could be just coincidence).

I dont take kindy to this type of screwing around, I'll give it one phone call to Hafele and if they f__K me around I'll simply send the thing back for a refund.
Festools - the tools that make you feel like working!

Offline Tony M

  • Posts: 61
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #128 on: July 19, 2008, 11:11 PM »
I'm based in Canada and purchased mine from Hafele. Today, for the first time I heard the dreaded screeching noise from heck (metal on metal). I thought it interesting that today I used it outside in the sun and it was a very hot and humid day, prior to this there were no problems whatsoever when it was being used indoors (could be just coincidence).

I dont take kindy to this type of screwing around, I'll give it one phone call to Hafele and if they f__K me around I'll simply send the thing back for a refund.
I thinks me be going that route seein's how I can smell chit from a mile away. None of what has been offered for a fix is working,  and the corporation says what they are fixing is the problem

Offline TLawler

  • Posts: 1
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #129 on: July 19, 2008, 11:29 PM »
I purchased a Kapex from McFeely's on June 27th and received it on July 3rd.  I noticed as soon as I unpacked it that swinging the miter table was difficult.  I have yet to turn it on, I have been very busy and thought that I would set it up with my new saw helper.  My old setup a DeWalt 12" SCMS w/ saw helper was pretty nice.  Anyway I walked out to the shop yesterday afternoon after getting back from a job and I could not swing a miter.  The saw seems as though it is locked up! I called McFeelys they referred me to Festool and I was told they would be sending me a replacement plate.

I am posting this just so those interested might find it interesting that I have only rotated the saw a few times including unpacking.  The saw has been in my garage shop the entire time, no environmental control,  the temp has been 89 to 92 high humidity this entire week.

Tim Lawler

Offline vteknical

  • Festool Employee
  • *
  • Posts: 160
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #130 on: July 19, 2008, 11:37 PM »
As far as Eiji's mod.  I serious doubt Festool would play hard ball rejecting a warranty claim under these circumstances.
They are reasonable you know?  Besides aren't they sending out parts for the customer to install in hopes of a resolution.

I would of absolutely gotten ticked and done the same thing a Eiji.

Being in the MFG'ing industry myself, I can tell you they probably have known about this for some time and were in a state of Hurricane Katrina syndrome.  Problem is sitting there staring you right in the eye, you know what you needs to be done to remedy the problem however, you go into self preservation mode and deny it even exists.  Until the village comes at you with pitch forks and knives.  

Me personally, I would be hiding this from my wife, she's always on the look out for this kind of Ammo to hit me with, in times when you are down in out she'll finish you off with a kick in the Festool nuts.
 

Offline Per Swenson

  • Posts: 871
  • So far deep in rural nj, there are no Neighbors
    • Swenson&Swenson
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #131 on: July 19, 2008, 11:56 PM »
V,

As I said before I don't have one yet,

and I have no idea how they test them.

But do you think they set up 10 sawz in the July heat or equivalent at any time?

I am  asking because I really have no idea.

And what makes these saws different from the loads they sold in Europe for a year

before a box was opened here?

Per
Party like its 1929. It's the American way.


There outta be a law banning sesquipedalianism on

internet forums.

www.swensonz.com

Offline vteknical

  • Festool Employee
  • *
  • Posts: 160
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #132 on: July 20, 2008, 12:22 AM »
Very good question Per.
European climate is certainly different, as for the humidity, they get pretty saturated.  Dan Rush is from my neck of the woods and it's been really hot and humid this last week.

Perhaps they made a tooling change?  Who knows?

It's during every MFG's major product launch that no matter how much you prepare it's this unexpected stuff that causes you grief.   

IMO, for Festool USA The Kapex is Epic, call it the gateway product for NAINA products to start rolling in very soon.


Offline Taos

  • Posts: 227
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #133 on: July 20, 2008, 12:45 AM »
As far as Eiji's mod.  I serious doubt Festool would play hard ball rejecting a warranty claim under these circumstances.
They are reasonable you know?  Besides aren't they sending out parts for the customer to install in hopes of a resolution.

I would of absolutely gotten ticked and done the same thing a Eiji.

Being in the MFG'ing industry myself, I can tell you they probably have known about this for some time and were in a state of Hurricane Katrina syndrome.  Problem is sitting there staring you right in the eye, you know what you needs to be done to remedy the problem however, you go into self preservation mode and deny it even exists.  Until the village comes at you with pitch forks and knives.  

Me personally, I would be hiding this from my wife, she's always on the look out for this kind of Ammo to hit me with, in times when you are down in out she'll finish you off with a kick in the Festool nuts.
 
Funny post vt,
Been laughing for 10 minutes.

Offline thudchkr

  • Posts: 170
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #134 on: July 20, 2008, 08:33 AM »
Adding to the overall picture.  I received Kapex, new in the box, three days ago. Thought that it was fairly stiff in it's movement. Been too busy to even cut anything with it yet. (Wanted to devote sufficient time when I actually started to put it through it's paces.) Went out this morning and tried rotating it back and forth after reading this thread, and after the first moves were stiff, concurrent ones came up with the sound of metal grating on metal.  We've got 96% humidity this AM with temp around 58 degrees.  Doesn't necessarily seem to be a temperature issue, leastways a high temperature issue. It would be nice to know if this temp with a low humidity level would have provided a different outcome.  The relative humidiy is definitely higher than it was when I unpacked the saw. 

More information for the forum.  Will be viewing future posts here with great interest.

Clint Baxter
Clint

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #135 on: July 20, 2008, 08:37 AM »
Clint, how about taking it inside for a while?

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #136 on: July 20, 2008, 08:46 AM »
I thinks me be going that route seein's how I can smell chit from a mile away. None of what has been offered for a fix is working,  and the corporation says what they are fixing is the problem

Tony, the new spring plate fix has worked for some people and they are sending out new saws for those that the fix didn't work, so they do have a fix. Seems one problem is people that are getting replacement saws are getting them from dealers with "old" stock and are having the same problem.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #137 on: July 20, 2008, 08:59 AM »
As far as Eiji's mod.  I serious doubt Festool would play hard ball rejecting a warranty claim under these circumstances.

What if Eiji's mod catches on here and two hundred people try it and six months down the road it causes a big problem with the saws, what then? As a general rule making modification to power tools is not a good idea.


Quote
Being in the MFG'ing industry myself, I can tell you they probably have known about this for some time and were in a state of Hurricane Katrina syndrome.  Problem is sitting there staring you right in the eye, you know what you needs to be done to remedy the problem however, you go into self preservation mode and deny it even exists. until the village comes at you with pitch forks and knives.  

Yes, Festool knew about this issue before the 7/01 release. All the saws were checked for this issue before shipping. It seems to becoming more and more clear this problem doesn't surface until the heat and/or humidity comes into play.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Tony M

  • Posts: 61
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #138 on: July 20, 2008, 10:07 AM »
]

Tony, the new spring plate fix has worked for some people and they are sending out new saws for those that the fix didn't work, so they do have a fix. Seems one problem is people that are getting replacement saws are getting them from dealers with "old" stock and are having the same problem.
[/quote]  The thing that concerns me right now Brice is if the problem gets solved lickity split or is it going to take months of reconfiguration to the design.

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #139 on: July 20, 2008, 10:09 AM »
Brice, does that mean if I'm still having a problem I should call Festool and return the saw to them?  I've never had a service issue, beyond this, with them so I don't know the procedure.  I've contacted the dealer and he told me he would get back to me next week after checking with Festool.  Do they send out the product before they get your return or do they wait to receive the defective unit?
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline MiterMaster

  • Posts: 139
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #140 on: July 20, 2008, 10:35 AM »
I thinks me be going that route seein's how I can smell chit from a mile away. None of what has been offered for a fix is working,  and the corporation says what they are fixing is the problem

Tony, the new spring plate fix has worked for some people and they are sending out new saws for those that the fix didn't work, so they do have a fix. Seems one problem is people that are getting replacement saws are getting them from dealers with "old" stock and are having the same problem.

The replacement saw I got direct from Festool (Indiana location), my replacement is dated 05/08 and it has these same issues.  They did overnight me a replacement spring plate which I hope to install today.  Once I get the new plate on I'll post on if it corrected the problem or not.

Mike
McDermott Interiors
Trim Carpentry by Design

Offline MiterMaster

  • Posts: 139
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #141 on: July 20, 2008, 10:53 AM »
.....All the saws were checked for this issue before shipping. It seems to becoming more and more clear this problem doesn't surface until the heat and/or humidity comes into play.....

Hate to put a spin on this thought, but my Kapex has been housed in our basement since I got it, it has not been out on any jobsite.   It's pretty cool down there, say low/mid 70's, not much humidity and it still has grinding / scrapping issues.  Again, Festool did send me a new spring plate, I hope to install today so I'll post once I get it on.

Mike
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 01:00 PM by MiterMaster »
McDermott Interiors
Trim Carpentry by Design

Offline MiterMaster

  • Posts: 139
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #142 on: July 20, 2008, 10:58 AM »
Do they send out the product before they get your return or do they wait to receive the defective unit?

It may be different between dealers how they handle replacements?  My dealer was great about this issue (here's a plug for Bob Marino)!  He arranged for Festool to ship me a replacement Kapex, and this happened before I returned the initial one. 

I received my replacement in 2 days, I'm returning the 1st one tomorrow.  I did not have to wait to send back the 1st saw, they sent my replacement right away, Festool (& my dealer too) do take care of you, don't worry about it!

Mike
McDermott Interiors
Trim Carpentry by Design

Offline Mr Jones

  • Posts: 63
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #143 on: July 20, 2008, 12:40 PM »
I just checked my UK early model, must have been one of the first 5 or 6 my dealer had. so I guess Jun/July last year, little use this year and a bit of travel. Mine does have the rubbing mark on the mitre scale, and sounds a little scratchy when moving it, but never tight been tight or seized. I must have made fewer than a 500 cuts other than 90 degree with this saw, I had felt from the start that the turning was a bit 'non festool', but the kapex has been harder to love than the kit I have.

It has never been really hot. sadly.

Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #144 on: July 21, 2008, 11:50 AM »
John from Festool came by and replaced my spring plate. It is now silky smooth. Hopefully, it stays like that. Time will tell.

I am pleased the way Festool has handled this. When I contacted John about a replacement saw he told me I was better off with the repair because there was no guarantee that the new saw did not have the problem. That made sense and I am glad I went for the repair.

Norm

Offline Brad Evans

  • Posts: 75
  • SF Bay Area
    • Urban PhotoBlog: Citysnaps
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #145 on: July 22, 2008, 12:05 AM »
>>>   ...  he told me I was better off with the repair because there was no guarantee that the new saw did not have the problem.

Precisely why I'm not considering the saw until this customer beta testing program is concluded and the design is corrected!
Urban PhotoBlog:  www.citysnaps.net/blog

Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #146 on: July 22, 2008, 07:28 AM »
Used it for a couple of hours last night, swinging the miter from 45? to 45? with no scraping. Checked again in the morning so far so good.

Norm

Offline Matt Antonucci

  • Posts: 76
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #147 on: July 22, 2008, 09:28 AM »
I replaced my Spring Plate on Thursday.  It has been great ever since and I used it a ton this weekend and yesterday...  That definately fixed my problem...



Matt

Offline womackdesign

  • Posts: 66
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #148 on: July 22, 2008, 12:12 PM »
Received my spring plate from Festool yesterday. Replaced it this morning, took 5 minutes and it runs super smooth around the mitre gage. Thanks Bob for sorting out the problem for me. Dewalt 708 relegated to cutting rough stock and dust collection.
Chad

Offline Frank Snyder

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #149 on: July 22, 2008, 01:33 PM »
Received my spring plate today, installed it and no more scraping! Works like a charm. The new spring plate appears to be thinner and the lever doesn't seem to over ride the indent when raised all the way up.

On a side note, I used my Kapex over the weekend to install some Cherry crown with a bunch of one inch returns...the accuracy of the dual lasers and clean cuts produced perfect results. I even made a zero clearance continuous crown jig for the Kapex (copied from JLC thread) which worked great. However, as with any powered miter saw, I was not so lucky mitering the smaller dentil moldings to wrap around the returns. These cuts were hit and miss as to whether or not the blade caught the material and blew it apart. So I will finish cutting these smaller decorative moldings with a hand saw and miter box...they're just too flimsy.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #150 on: July 22, 2008, 01:46 PM »
Received my spring plate today, installed it and no more scraping! Works like a charm. The new spring plate appears to be thinner and the lever doesn't seem to over ride the indent when raised all the way up.

On a side note, I used my Kapex over the weekend to install some Cherry crown with a bunch of one inch returns...the accuracy of the dual lasers and clean cuts produced perfect results. I even made a zero clearance continuous crown jig for the Kapex (copied from JLC thread) which worked great. However, as with any powered miter saw, I was not so lucky mitering the smaller dentil moldings to wrap around the returns. These cuts were hit and miss as to whether or not the blade caught the material and blew it apart. So I will finish cutting these smaller decorative moldings with a hand saw and miter box...they're just too flimsy.



Try a deep back up fence (that holds the stick a few inches forward of the real fence) and use the saw in chop mode so the stick is supported on the side opposite the tooth direction.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Steveo48

  • Posts: 305
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #151 on: July 22, 2008, 09:04 PM »
>>>   ...  he told me I was better off with the repair because there was no guarantee that the new saw did not have the problem.

.....until this customer beta testing program is concluded .....

What a great way to describe it!  :D

I'm pretty suprised that so many of the saws have this issue.  I'm really suprised that so many posters rave about the customer service... holy cacca boys, a $1,300.00 miter saw should be ready to roll out of the box. I'd stuff the fix, send the saw back and wait until it was done right.

Steve

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #152 on: July 23, 2008, 10:02 AM »

Ok so I finally got to extensively use my replacement Kapex yesterday.  Made probably between 200-300 cuts and many of them mitered.  I hadn't experienced any problems up until about 3:30 PM.  The plate hadn't been grinding one bit, and then just completely locked up.  When I say completely it's not like you couldn't move it but it was very, very hard and ground the miter scale really bad.  I hadn't even left if unattended.  I made a cut at a left 45 and then measured and marked my work piece for a right 45.  I went to swing the table around and it wouldn't.  For some reason I was shocked!  Well to the trailer I went as I was at least not so stupid that I hadn't brought the plates and torx driver with me that Festool had sent me for my first saw.  One plate is marked 2.9 and the other 3.0.  decisions, decisions...  So I quickly stuck the 3.0 plate on there and continued working with no real issues until 9 PM last night.  It does seem to scrape more on the top side at the detents than it did with the stock plate.  This is what happened with my first saw.  Once I changed the plate it worked for hours and then started having problems at the top.  It won't get heavy use like yesterday for a few more days as I'm doing a kitchen tear out today but if and when I do it better not start acting up.  I'm seriously at the point where one more issue is going to send it packing (Sadly) and I'll be back to using the 716.  I've lost too many hours work dealing with this, and my time is too precious to me.   

Btw... I measured the stock plate, the 3.0, and the 2.9 and the plate thickness of all of them is 3.02mm.  The difference appears to be in the depth of the detents stamped into the plate.  I can't get a good measurement of those with my caliper.

Chris....   

Offline Julian Tracy

  • Posts: 529
    • Renovation By Design, Inc.
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #153 on: July 23, 2008, 10:48 AM »
Yea, it certainly does seem as though Kapex 1.0 isn't ready for prime time just yet. 

Aside from the green juice blinders that come about with any new Festool product launch - WHY didn't we hear about this from our neighbors across the pond that have had the saw for a few months now.  Surely they use their saws at different miter settings like we do here.  Curious, huh?

I was pretty close to talking myself into the purchase.  Seems to mirror the iPhone 1.0 - thye finally got it right with the 2.0 version.

Julian

Offline Julian Tracy

  • Posts: 529
    • Renovation By Design, Inc.
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #154 on: July 23, 2008, 10:49 AM »
They should give every owner of the kapex that has had problems a new saw blade to compensate for the pain in the butt.

JT

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #155 on: July 23, 2008, 11:29 AM »
This Kapex is the 1.1 or maybe 1.2 release. I don't know if there where any issues with the initial release in the rest of the world.

Rick said the spring plate was changed immediately prior to the NA release but did not say what prompted the change. He did say there was concern that the lock might not be strong enough but why? Was some other part changed? A thinner miter scale?

The thing that worries me is that the miter table is stiff even with the spring plate removed. Why? Is there a problem with the pivot post? Bearing tight or not square to the turret bearing surfaces? That would be a big problem.

Offline Talisker2

  • Posts: 5
  • Sarah and I at Hatcher Pass Mine
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #156 on: July 23, 2008, 11:32 AM »
Greetings all, apparently temperature is not a factor (about 55 degrees in my garage), my saw which I bought on the 10th of this month and only used it 3 times testing the angle froze up last night while I was showing it to a friend.
 
Called Festool and they are shipping a new plate as well as a suggestion to lap the end of it to obtain 2mm or .010 off or put it in a vice a whack it (not very accurate but thats what he said anyway).

I think after work today I will pull it and lap it.  He went on to say that even the new plate may require some adjustment.  My last three on the serial is 395.  Not sure where they started making factory changes.

 To say I am disappointed in Festool is an understatement.  To lay out this kind of money and have to monkey around with a field fix is pretty poor marketing/engineering on their part.  

Jim in Anchorage AK.
Jim Flood

Offline Julian Tracy

  • Posts: 529
    • Renovation By Design, Inc.
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #157 on: July 23, 2008, 12:17 PM »
Called Festool and they are shipping a new plate as well as a suggestion to lap the end of it to obtain 2mm or .010 off or put it in a vice a whack it (not very accurate but thats what he said anyway).

Oh my - better remove this post...  If folks hear about Festool suggesting that Kapex owners whack the saw parts to get them correct... they might need to lower the price a tad bit imo.

FS: killer miter saw, fancy colors, fancy features - New - needs work $1300 - must have hammer for adjustment. :)

Julian


Offline Sweet

  • Posts: 46
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #158 on: July 23, 2008, 01:34 PM »
Yea, it certainly does seem as though Kapex 1.0 isn't ready for prime time just yet. 

Aside from the green juice blinders that come about with any new Festool product launch - WHY didn't we hear about this from our neighbours across the pond that have had the saw for a few months now.  Surely they use their saws at different mitre settings like we do here.  Curious, huh?

I was pretty close to talking myself into the purchase.  Seems to mirror the iPhone 1.0 - they finally got it right with the 2.0 version.

Julian

I can't give a definitive answer to this one.

I have had my Kapex for a maximum of two months and we've just finished the second fix/trim work on the job that we are on now. I have had four of us using the saw. Some days it's been in almost constant use and I certainly haven't encountered any problems.
 
It was a simple transition from DW708 and Makita's to using the festool. We've cut mitre's,  compound angles, half laps, trench's with it.

However, from picture's that you guy's across the pond have posted, there do seem to be at least some superficial differences. I wonder if there are other modifications that Festool has HAD to make in order to meet your Health and Safety (or equivalent to our PUWER regulations).

Without going into too much detail, Brice's saw seems to have some kind arm/cover by the fixing bolt for the blade that my saw defiantly doesn't have. An example of our different regulations?

On site in the UK we have to run 110 volt systems and tools, which are deemed safer. Domestic voltage here  is 240 volt. I am led to believe that  on the European continental sites they are allowed to use 240 volt tools on circuit breakers. Normally contractors in the UK have to pay extra (!!!) for 110 volt tools too....

It goes on.
 ??? ???



Offline honeydokreg

  • Posts: 1674
    • honeydokreg@aol.com     email address
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #159 on: July 24, 2008, 06:50 AM »
This Kapex is the 1.1 or maybe 1.2 release. I don't know if there where any issues with the initial release in the rest of the world.

Rick said the spring plate was changed immediately prior to the NA release but did not say what prompted the change. He did say there was concern that the lock might not be strong enough but why? Was some other part changed? A thinner miter scale?

The thing that worries me is that the miter table is stiff even with the spring plate removed. Why? Is there a problem with the pivot post? Bearing tight or not square to the turret bearing surfaces? That would be a big problem.

michael,

the  saw sits on top of a bed of greese and there are no bearrings under the turntable.  my friend took has apart and discovered this.  what happens as sawdust gets under the turntable?  he told me all the other miter saws sit on bearings to turn back and forth.  or if it is cold outside and the greese hardens up?  unsure.
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline Thomas R

  • Posts: 18
  • Sweden
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #160 on: July 24, 2008, 01:16 PM »
Yea, it certainly does seem as though Kapex 1.0 isn't ready for prime time just yet. 

Aside from the green juice blinders that come about with any new Festool product launch - WHY didn't we hear about this from our neighbors across the pond that have had the saw for a few months now.  Surely they use their saws at different miter settings like we do here.  Curious, huh?

I was pretty close to talking myself into the purchase.  Seems to mirror the iPhone 1.0 - thye finally got it right with the 2.0 version.

Julian

I?ve been using my Kapex since september -07, 3 months ago it saw a lot of action on a big decking project, it has preformed like you would expect from a Festool product, everytime (knock wood)

Offline Frank-Jan

  • Posts: 1103
  • Dutch Canadian living in Belgium
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #161 on: July 24, 2008, 03:49 PM »
... WHY didn't we hear about this from our neighbors across the pond that have had the saw for a few months now.  Surely they use their saws at different miter settings like we do here.  Curious, huh?...


BECAUSE they might not be experiencing the same problems maybe? (And no, I will not be tempted to swing my saw left to right continuously for hours on end to see if it might develop a problem).
The only "problem" I have encountered with the unit I have bought in the first week of december is that the lasers won't stay accurate in transport (I recently discovered that even just carrying it up one flight of stairs will put them off slightly.) I have spoken to a festool rep recently, and he said it wasn't normal, and I should have my dealer send it in, and I would have it returned to me in 3 days. (I postponed it, because I couldn't be without it at the time and now I'm on holidays)
As for the heat issue: the saw has been available in Austral?a for about the same time as in Europe, and over there it gets pretty hot aswell. So my guess is the scraping issue is indeed caused by changes made to the design/fabrication of the saw prior to its introduction to the US.

The first time I layed my hands on a kapex was in februari 2007 at it's official introduction on a Dutch building fair; the first time I passed the stand most of the festool people were on their lunch break, and one of the +/- 4 saws on display was harder to turn than the others. That, the fact that we didn't have any projects at the time that justified the investment, the problems that that guy was having in England that returned 10(!) saws, and the availibility of the set-version made me postpone the purchase till december, allthough it was officially available in april here.

BTW if I lived in the US I probably wouldn't have gotten the kapex, the price difference compaired to others is just to high. For example: a dewalt 718 without lasers, costs only 50 euro's less than the kapex over here, the ugly, huge hitachi with the digital readout 30 euro's. Another example: I know hilti hammerdrills are better than others, I also know they cost more than twice or three times the price than a higher rated bosch hammerdrill, so I don't own any hilti's but I can choose between a whole arsenal of bosch drills of which the size/powe is most suitable for the job at hand. ... just my two (euro)cents...

Offline Bob Marino

  • Posts: 3216
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #162 on: July 24, 2008, 04:21 PM »
 Guys,

  We should be hearing something officially from Festool very soon.

 Bob
Former Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #163 on: July 24, 2008, 07:06 PM »
My Bosch and Makita saws have nearly the same turntable bearing design as the Kapex. The Makita swings very easily but the Bosch requires a little bumping to make fine adjustments Both lock down very securely.

Today I finally got my hands on a Kapex at Force Machinery. That saw moved smoothly with no sign or sound of scraping except the detent spring functioning normally. It slipped into the detents if left alone but pushing down on the detent release allowed the easy bypass of detents.

Like my Bosch saw the Kapex required a little bumping to make fine adjustments but I could easily move it in much finer increments than I could reliably see, maybe 1/10th degree. No problem there. But, with the miter table locked I could still move it with heavy bumps, something my own miter saws won't allow.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 11:13 PM by Michael Kellough »

Offline Tony Costello

  • Posts: 8
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #164 on: July 24, 2008, 10:56 PM »
  We should be hearing something officially from Festool very soon.



Long time reader, first time poster, here.

I think I can shed some light on why you don't hear from the manufacture in situations like this. I used to work for a _major_ US tool manufacture, this was 10 years ago, but it seems policies have not changed one iota since then.

Their policy that they drummed into you head was that you can participate in any forum, but you cannot identify who you're associated with, and you must never under any circumstances address any specific message that may be a result of a engineering or manufacturing defect.

The main issue they see is liability, even if you are just the lowly mailroom boy, a message posted by an employee of the company could be construed as an official statement since somebody may be able to demonstrate that simply by being employed there gives you access to ?inside? information.

Did you ever call a help line with an issue and ask if this is a common problem and they say, ?yours is the first call we had on it? when in fact you have seen at least ten others report the exact same problem on a forum? Well, that?s part of company policy to never admit that there may be a problem.

They see these liabilities as the number one assault on profitability and just one lawsuit, recall or unplanned change in production can easily wipe out all profits from a particular tool line.

A swift look around the various forums you?ll see that Craftsman doesn?t participate in their forum, neither does Rigid, Milwaukee, or Bosch. Even representatives from the three most popular tool manufactures in the USA; Delta, Porter-Cable, & Dewalt are nowhere to be found on any forum. It?s a sad state that given the ability to communicate in a timely fashion in today?s modern world these manufactures still act like customers are a pest and their concerns can be ignored.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #165 on: July 24, 2008, 11:20 PM »
Let's see, they inadvertently shut down this forum by demanding the domain name then stop participating in the forum. Sounds like they got a stern talking to from legal.

Offline willywonka

  • Posts: 8
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #166 on: July 25, 2008, 03:39 AM »
I have dug around on one of the forums i read and have dug up a couple of examples, that might be on point. thoughts? i have not done n exhaustive survey but there were a lot of teething problems on its release.



http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=56689


What the heck... Why do they (Aussies) get a DVD with their Kapex. I feel cheated!!!



Offline willywonka

  • Posts: 8
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #167 on: July 25, 2008, 04:19 AM »
V,

As I said before I don't have one yet,

and I have no idea how they test them.

But do you think they set up 10 sawz in the July heat or equivalent at any time?

I am  asking because I really have no idea.

And what makes these saws different from the loads they sold in Europe for a year

before a box was opened here?

Per

They are not Porsche. I know they take their cars everywhere extreme for months however with a saw - It is just a saw, maybe a Festool but just a saw. I am sure they do not have an extensive global testing program. But they will fix each and everyone to protect their reputation unlike D_____T that piece of s__t company.... But that is just a whole new story isn't it?

Offline Eiji Fuller

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1087
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #168 on: July 25, 2008, 04:22 AM »
They(aussies) should have got a dvd player as well for what they pay compared to what we had to pay.

Offline Frank-Jan

  • Posts: 1103
  • Dutch Canadian living in Belgium
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #169 on: July 25, 2008, 05:04 AM »
For those wondering about the dvd mentioned... it does not contain anything spectaculair, it's just the festool interactive product tour (ipt), that you can check online aswell. That dvd also came with my domino and my rotex 150.

Offline honeydokreg

  • Posts: 1674
    • honeydokreg@aol.com     email address
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #170 on: July 25, 2008, 06:45 AM »
  We should be hearing something officially from Festool very soon.



Long time reader, first time poster, here.

I think I can shed some light on why you don't hear from the manufacture in situations like this. I used to work for a _major_ US tool manufacture, this was 10 years ago, but it seems policies have not changed one iota since then.

Their policy that they drummed into you head was that you can participate in any forum, but you cannot identify who you're associated with, and you must never under any circumstances address any specific message that may be a result of a engineering or manufacturing defect.

The main issue they see is liability, even if you are just the lowly mailroom boy, a message posted by an employee of the company could be construed as an official statement since somebody may be able to demonstrate that simply by being employed there gives you access to ?inside? information.

Did you ever call a help line with an issue and ask if this is a common problem and they say, ?yours is the first call we had on it? when in fact you have seen at least ten others report the exact same problem on a forum? Well, that?s part of company policy to never admit that there may be a problem.

They see these liabilities as the number one assault on profitability and just one lawsuit, recall or unplanned change in production can easily wipe out all profits from a particular tool line.

A swift look around the various forums you?ll see that Craftsman doesn?t participate in their forum, neither does Rigid, Milwaukee, or Bosch. Even representatives from the three most popular tool manufactures in the USA; Delta, Porter-Cable, & Dewalt are nowhere to be found on any forum. It?s a sad state that given the ability to communicate in a timely fashion in today?s modern world these manufactures still act like customers are a pest and their concerns can be ignored.


  yes I agree with that statement. and as bob morino shared an annoucement is coming soon.  which if everbody took their saw back and returned it today... the we would here by the end of the day.

mine is going back today, my 2nd one.  I love the saw, just going to wait till the next verision comes out and they have addressed the issues we have.  after all I have $2 gran tied up in this saw, saw, extra blade and the mft stand.

and I am not sure of the issues that might happen down the road, even though I can send my saw to festool for repairs, I am in the  carpentry business, and reley on my tools, yes I have several other saws to use if I had to, but should not have to. 
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #171 on: July 25, 2008, 09:34 AM »
I have to agree with your honeydokreg.  I think I'm having a little bit of Kapex  buyers remorse.  I got a great deal on the saw (was able to use the live.com way before they thought of shutting it down) but even for the $ I saved I'm not sure it's worth the headache.  I wonder how many sales they've lost because of these initial problems.  I'm sure Festool isn't hurting financially but there was a lot of hype leading up to the release of this tool and I'm not sure it has lived up to it.  I know Festool has been outstanding in their individual solutions to the problem, however, as some have mentioned here previously, when you pay this amount of $ for the saw you expect perfection out of the box.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline waynew

  • Posts: 69
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #172 on: July 25, 2008, 10:13 AM »
Yep, I'm starting to feel uneasy about the purchase. In Canada the outlay was >$1700 including taxes and now the saw is sitting idol in my workshop because I'm not comfortable using it due to the possibility of causing more damage to the mitre components. When I called the reps here about the problem they knew nothing and had to call the US, now I have to wait for the parts to be shipped from the US and I'm in the middle of renovations. They have also informed me that they want to take my saw back to their premises so they can all take a look at the problem and educate the other reps. Thats all very nice but I just need a saw that works, and like yesterday!
I have also got that sinking feeling (unfounded or not) that there could be other (unknown) issues with the saw and for the price I paid I'm feeling a little edgy about keeping it. I'd like Festool to formally extend the money back period to 6 month from the date its fixed so we can be sure that no other issues will surface as a result of the change in parts etc. If that doesn't happen I think the saw is going back.

Wayne
Festools - the tools that make you feel like working!

Offline MiterMaster

  • Posts: 139
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #173 on: July 25, 2008, 11:12 AM »
I'd like Festool to formally extend the money back period to 6 month from the date its fixed so we can be sure that no other issues will surface as a result of the change in parts etc.
Wayne

I agree with everyones frustration, my 3rd Kapex is being delivered today.  I agree too about the price, $1300 (U.S.) is a butt load of money to shell out on a miter saw.  But, so far every problem I have addressed to my dealer has been resolved by him directly, or by Festool. 

For the price we're all paying the saw should be perfect right out of the box, on the same hand I know Festool will take care of all our issues, be it now or 12 months down the road.  For all the advanced features on this saw I'm willing to tough it out, and if a problem comes up, I'll tell my dealer and I know he'll take care of me.

What would be super cool is that for all of us that do tolerate these issues and tough it out, Festool should send us all a brand new replacement saw once all the issues are finally taken care of and corrected.   

Mike
McDermott Interiors
Trim Carpentry by Design

Offline Matt Antonucci

  • Posts: 76
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #174 on: July 25, 2008, 11:20 AM »
Mike,


   I agree that would be super cool but doubt that will happen...  However, as a form of appreciation for those of us who decide not to send the saws back, at the very least it would be nice to offer some kind of future discount as a form of customer appreciation...  This is clearly not a product whose initial launch was/is up to Festool standards...



Matt

Offline MiterMaster

  • Posts: 139
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #175 on: July 25, 2008, 11:35 AM »
...I agree that would be super cool but doubt that will happen...  However, as a form of appreciation for those of us who decide not to send the saws back, at the very least it would be nice to offer some kind of future discount as a form of customer appreciation...  This is clearly not a product whose initial launch was/is up to Festool standards...
Matt

Yeah, I was being sarcastic - I know that would never happen.  A future discount would be a cool reward, after all we are testing their saw and reporting all the issues, a discount reward would be nice compensation for all our hard work testing out the product and reporting of the flaws.

Mike
McDermott Interiors
Trim Carpentry by Design

Offline waynew

  • Posts: 69
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #176 on: July 30, 2008, 04:42 PM »
Update. My saw was repaired and returned today by Robert the Hafele area rep who I must say was very good to deal with. Its working now, I'll give it a good workout over the next 3 weeks,hopefully the problem is gone for good.

Wayne
Festools - the tools that make you feel like working!

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 727
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #177 on: July 30, 2008, 06:10 PM »
Update- I checked the manufacture date on my Kapex, it looks like it was manufactured May 2008. This particular saw has had zero problems.
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline Bob10

  • Posts: 11
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #178 on: August 09, 2008, 01:53 PM »
[quote author=honeydokreg   yes I agree with that statement. and as bob morino shared an annoucement is coming soon.  which if everbody took their saw back and returned it today... the we would here by the end of the day.

mine is going back today, my 2nd one.  I love the saw, just going to wait till the next verision comes out and they have addressed the issues we have.  after all I have $2 gran tied up in this saw, saw, extra blade and the mft stand.

and I am not sure of the issues that might happen down the road, even though I can send my saw to festool for repairs, I am in the  carpentry business, and reley on my tools, yes I have several other saws to use if I had to, but should not have to. 
[/quote]

I am curious are you sending the accessories back also?  I mean it would seem without the saw they would just be a constant reminder of disappointment, and dust collectors.  I have read about the dealers being very supportive and quick to attempt to get things right.  I can't imagine this isn't costing them time and money.  After reading all this I am glad Festool stopped the Live deal or I would be in the same boat with a problem saw or wondering if I just bought a problem waiting to happen.  I was at the San Carlos Woodcraft about 2 weeks back for a Festool Rep meet and greet type thing.  The rep pushed the Kapex and a new drill exclusively without one mention of this problem.  I am still impressed by how the Saw performs in a controlled environment.  I am probably going to get one in the future if they get the kinks worked out.  The idea of sending out parts so a buyer can work on a tool fresh out of the box bothers me at almost any price point but at the cost of this saw the only thing I would need is a pick up sticker for UPS.  Kreg I am sorry to hear you spent $2k on a tool that has cost you time off your job and probably more than a little space in your head being angry. 

Offline honeydokreg

  • Posts: 1674
    • honeydokreg@aol.com     email address
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #179 on: August 09, 2008, 04:46 PM »
i kept the mft kapex stand and set my other saw on it.  I like the table.  but I returend the extra blade also, and when I pick up the saw again I am going to get a chopmaster from forrest, the best blade and they have one available for the kapex.

thanks for your comments
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 552
I think everybody is not solving the issue correctly. Please check my post about the kapex miter adjustment-another kapex post. In my opinion the problem is NOT the thickness of the miter scale plate but the size (diameter) of the circular collar that pushes the sprung steel plate off of the miter scale the tolerance is very tight(small) so that if there is any deflection of the miter scale then the miter scale will be contacting both the sprung steel and the tab above the miter scale.  just my cents  thats why it works fine and then tightens up. In fact if they made the miter scale thicker it would be more stable  then of course the sprung steel would have to move away from the miter scale even more.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
I think everybody is not solving the issue correctly. Please check my post about the kapex miter adjustment-another kapex post. In my opinion the problem is NOT the thickness of the miter scale plate but the size (diameter) of the circular collar that pushes the sprung steel plate off of the miter scale the tolerance is very tight(small) so that if there is any deflection of the miter scale then the miter scale will be contacting both the sprung steel and the tab above the miter scale.  just my cents  thats why it works fine and then tightens up. In fact if they made the miter scale thicker it would be more stable  then of course the sprung steel would have to move away from the miter scale even more.

Glass, please don't take the following wrong way. This problem has already been looked at by the professional service technicians and probably the engineers at Festool Germany and they came to the conclusion reached in this thread. Festool changed the spring plate (what you are calling the piece of sprung steel) and this caused the problem. I understand you are trying to help by offering your opinion. The reason I'm mentioning this is because people read threads like this one to find the answers to their Festool problems and now they may second guess Festool's official fix based on speculation by members here. The Festool USA's service department does a great job at meeting the needs of the customers when a problem comes up, lets not add speculation that questions their expertise.

It may seem I'm pointing you out unfairly after some many others have speculated here too. The difference is the earlier speculation was mostly done before Festool's analysis/official fix was known and the members weren't suggesting Festool's analysis is incorrect. I respect the fact that you are allowed to express your opinions here but making the but maybe the statement "EVERYONE'S ON THE WRONG TRACK" is a little irresponsible (my opinion).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 08:24 PM by Brice Burrell »
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Brad Evans

  • Posts: 75
  • SF Bay Area
    • Urban PhotoBlog: Citysnaps
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #182 on: August 09, 2008, 08:54 PM »
Brice, you reference Festool's "official fix."   A couple weeks ago it was said something official from Festool would be coming.  Is it posted here somewhere?  Thanx...
Urban PhotoBlog:  www.citysnaps.net/blog

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 552
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #183 on: August 09, 2008, 10:08 PM »
I take nothing personal. I look for the simplest solutions to problems. This is not always the case for people or companies with vested interests. Just look under the miter scale and observe the miter plate the tab above and the sprung steel plate   then lock and unlock  see how little the unlock mechanism moves the sprung steel away from the miter plate. now unscrew the steel sprung plate  see the pin with the collar around its middle  that pushes the sprung steel plate away from the miter plate.  If the collars diameter was just slightly larger it would push the sprung steel sl;ightly farther away from the miter plate. I am a practical person-sometimes the "official solution" is just that an " official solution.

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7388
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #184 on: August 09, 2008, 11:02 PM »
Brice, you reference Festool's "official fix."   A couple weeks ago it was said something official from Festool would be coming.  Is it posted here somewhere?  Thanx...

Brad, Festool is sending out new spring plates to fix the problem. No official word from Festool posted here, but the spring plate is the fix.

Glass, if you followed this issue you know that the spring plate was changed prior to the US release, this change caused the problem. The change was to address some issues with miter setting not lock securely enough on some saws overseas. This change didn't allow enough clearance and cause the rubbing. The new spring plate has, more or less, the effect as the solution you are proposing (more clearance). It seems you don't fully understand how the fix works or the effects it has on the saw. I understand your intentions here are well meaning but that doesn't change fact that you are adding a speculative fix to a problem that has already be solved by the very competent service technicians and engineers at Festool. I don't want your speculation to confuse any members coming to this thread late.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline gstuartw

  • Posts: 66
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #185 on: December 18, 2014, 12:53 PM »
Brice,

I purchased a Kapex back in March in anticipation of completing my shop build, which would then allow me to start a kitchen remodel. Well shame on me but the shop took a bit longer and I have just now put the Kapex on my MFT and cut the zip holding the arm down. To my dismay the saw would not rotate on the base without considerable pressure and it makes quite a scraping sound. All of this of course echoes the posts from members replying to the original poster back in 2008. I'm seeking some advice as to how I have this issue remedied.

Stuart

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 9376
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #186 on: December 18, 2014, 01:08 PM »
Brice,

I purchased a Kapex back in March in anticipation of completing my shop build, which would then allow me to start a kitchen remodel. Well shame on me but the shop took a bit longer and I have just now put the Kapex on my MFT and cut the zip holding the arm down. To my dismay the saw would not rotate on the base without considerable pressure and it makes quite a scraping sound. All of this of course echoes the posts from members replying to the original poster back in 2008. I'm seeking some advice as to how I have this issue remedied.

Stuart

      I highly recommend calling Festool service.

Seth

Offline gstuartw

  • Posts: 66
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #187 on: December 18, 2014, 01:11 PM »
Thanks Seth. Probably should have been my first thought but after googling the issue and finding a thread here I just shot from the hip. Multiple times at that as I have also contacted Tool Nut/ Festool Products and PM'd Shane.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 01:16 PM by gstuartw »

Offline gstuartw

  • Posts: 66
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #188 on: December 18, 2014, 01:45 PM »
      I highly recommend calling Festool service.

Seth

Actually I highly recommend properly trying to engage the mechanism that frees the saw up to rotate. DOH! I hope this is the first and last time I embarrass myself like this here on the FOG forum!


"Never mind"  - Emily Litella

Offline Worm Drive

  • Posts: 128
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #189 on: December 18, 2014, 08:52 PM »
I had the same issue with the spring plate (I guess that's what we've agreed to call it) scraping on the miter plate. I pulled the mechanism apart, put the spring plate in a vice and bent it slightly. Put it back together and it works like a champ.

Offline Tool-Caddy

  • Posts: 1
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #190 on: November 20, 2020, 02:11 PM »
My Kapex is about 9 years old.  I have had this problem twice now.  Eventually, it is nearly impossible to move the turntable.  I hear a scrapping sound as well.  I blow all sawdust out of every seam and turn the saw upside down.  I then use a spray lubricant on the bottom of the turntable that rides on the base of the saw.  The resolves the issue.  Still. the turntable is difficult to move but there is no more scrapping.  I would like to ease the tension on the turntable.  Can anyone help with this issue?