Author Topic: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?  (Read 64413 times)

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Offline Frank Snyder

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #90 on: July 18, 2008, 11:49 AM »
Thanks for trying, Dan. I think that is the problem. Either the indents on the plate need to be spaced properly so that when the lever is raised up all the way, the roller is properly nested to release the tension. OR...a simple stop addition inside the housing the keep the lever from being raised beyond the indent might work too. I'm guessing that the new plates have the indent in the proper location.

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Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2008, 11:56 AM »
Trying my hand at figuring out this problem...

When releasing the tension by raising the handle up, I found that if I raise the lever up all the way, it appears to over ride the indent and the plate bites the miter gauge causing it to scrape and seize. If I back it off (downwards just a bit) so that the roller mates with the indent, the plate releases and I can move the gauge again. Can anyone else with this problem try this? It helps if you get down below the saw so you can see when the roller is properly nested in its indent.

The handle and roller arm appears to be made of plastic (Nylatron?). Is it possible that the Nylatron is flexing and not maintaining the tension necessary to keep the plate from biting when it shouldn't? Could the warmth and humidity be causing the Nylatron to react this way?

Frank this description confuses me and I wonder if my description in my previous post is wrong?
It may well be since I've been relying on photos and the parts diagram.

It seems like if the roller comes out of the detent in the spring plate that the plate will be pushed even farther from the miter scale. What do I have wrong?

One thing I'm defiantly unclear on is, what engages the detents in the miter scale?
Is that the thing that is scraping when the lever is lifted too high?

Offline rnt80

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    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #92 on: July 18, 2008, 11:58 AM »
Trying my hand at figuring out this problem...

When releasing the tension by raising the handle up, I found that if I raise the lever up all the way, it appears to over ride the indent and the plate bites the miter gauge causing it to scrape and seize. If I back it off (downwards just a bit) so that the roller mates with the indent, the plate releases and I can move the gauge again. Can anyone else with this problem try this? It helps if you get down below the saw so you can see when the roller is properly nested in its indent.

The handle and roller arm appears to be made of plastic (Nylatron?). Is it possible that the Nylatron is flexing and not maintaining the tension necessary to keep the plate from biting when it shouldn't? Could the warmth and humidity be causing the Nylatron to react this way?

Frank this description confuses me and I wonder if my description in my previous post is wrong?
It may well be since I've been relying on photos and the parts diagram.

It seems like if the roller comes out of the detent in the spring plate that the plate will be pushed even farther from the miter scale. What do I have wrong?

One thing I'm defiantly unclear on is, what engages the detents in the miter scale?
Is that the thing that is scraping when the lever is lifted too high?

On mine it is.  Read my last post.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline rnt80

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #93 on: July 18, 2008, 12:00 PM »
Never mind I don't know where my last post is!!  The little tab that engages the miter detents is what is scraping on my saw.  I can see it when I observe the swinging motion from underneath the saw and there is evidence of it on the inside of the gauge.  It has caused some visible scoring and when I ran my finger over the gauge there was quite of bit of loose material/burrs that came off.  BTW I replaced my spring plate yesterday.  While it rides smoother the scraping is obviously still there.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:01 PM by rnt80 »
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Dan Rush

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #94 on: July 18, 2008, 12:03 PM »
Well, I just removed the spring clamp (#470665, in case my terminology is wrong) and flipped it over and reattached it upside down.  The saw works well with the detents, but will not lock between them.  I wonder if the plate could be bent VERY slightly to clear the indent plate?

Not a long term fix, but may help those stuck in the field.

FYI, Dan
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:10 PM by Dan Rush »

Offline Frank Snyder

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #95 on: July 18, 2008, 12:17 PM »
RNT80 - I was referring to the black spring plate on the underside which bites the bottom of the miter scale, not the spring tab for the scale indents. Try backing off your lever (push down about 1/8" from all the way up) then try swinging the saw around to see if this helps. I think the lever travels upwards too much.

Michael - I would also assume that if the roller traveled beyond the indent (towards you) that it would push the plate farther away from the scale surface. However, that does not appear to be the case here. It could have something to do with the plastic being used as a lever and flexing under warmer conditions?

On closer inspection, it appears the the plastic lever uses the underside of the housing as a fulcrum point. The underside of the housing is a large radius surface, which means that the fulcrum point would change during the movement of the lever, which would explain why the spring plate could spring back as the lever loses its mechanical advantage over the tension of the plate as the fulcrum moves farther away (as the lever moves farther upwards). And perhaps the plastic lever doesn't have the rigidity to resist the tension of the steel plate?

Dan - I wouldn't flip the spring plate over. You need the indents in the spring plate to lock it.

Disclaimer: I'm not an engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night  ;D
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:32 PM by Frank Snyder »

Offline rnt80

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #96 on: July 18, 2008, 12:40 PM »
I see what you're saying Frank.  I still get the scraping from that tab that engages the detentes.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Frank Snyder

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #97 on: July 18, 2008, 12:42 PM »
RNT80 - The tab the locks into the SCALE indents will still drag along the top of the scale. The problem is with the bottom plate (black steel).

Offline rnt80

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #98 on: July 18, 2008, 12:46 PM »
Is it supposed to drag so much that it scores the plate?  That doesn't seem right.  I"ve replaced the black plate on mine already and while it swings more freely there is still scraping.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:49 PM by rnt80 »
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #99 on: July 18, 2008, 12:55 PM »
If you lift the black tab just in front of the lock lever does that lift the "detent tooth" off of the miter scale?

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1894
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #100 on: July 18, 2008, 01:20 PM »
Michael,

The spring plate works by locking when the cam is released into the detent area rather than rather than having the cam load the spring with pressure to initiate clamping. I find that there should be a little play in the cam when the miter is clamped as this allows the spring to exert its force on the miter plate. The condition desribing a secondary lockup after attempting to release the clamp was witnessed by me on a demo saw at my dealer. In that case the cam was overshooting the its position and allowing the springplate to re-exert pressure on the miter plate. By backing up the lever you could find a position that would hold the springplate away from its clamping position. It is counter-intuitive. Exerting pressure onto the springplate disengages the clamp, and visa-versa.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1894
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #101 on: July 18, 2008, 01:24 PM »
If you lift the black tab just in front of the lock lever does that lift the "detent tooth" off of the miter scale?

The black tab is a button you push down to lift the plunger away from the positioning slot for your standard locked positions. The irony to all this is that you really don't need the locking mechanism that is causing all the heartburn when you are using standard positions, 90, 45, 22.5, etc. Good technique dictates a consistent practice, however.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline tim cf

  • Posts: 3
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #102 on: July 18, 2008, 01:33 PM »
Same thing happened to me, after about 2 hr's it seemed to bind up. Thought saw dust was the issue.
I think Festool should send out a fix to all owners at this point.

Offline MiterMaster

  • Posts: 139
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #103 on: July 18, 2008, 04:04 PM »
Thanks Festool for getting me the part (and throwing in a Torx screwdriver to boot)...
Matt

I hope they send a Torx screwdriver with my replacement spring plate as well.  The tool they provided I'm finding strips the machine screws way too easily.

Mike
McDermott Interiors
Trim Carpentry by Design

Offline rmoursund

  • Posts: 17
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #104 on: July 18, 2008, 08:19 PM »
I just received a replacement Kapex from my dealer after complaining about the hard to adjust miter with accompanying scraping sound, and I got to say I was pleasantly supprised.  With the first saw, the miter adjustment was never as easy to adjust as with the replacement saw; and of course there was no scraping sound when moving the miter.  Note:  the miter on the first saw was very difficult to use from the start, and cycled in and out of operation.  As I mentioned in my previous post in this same thread, the temperature that the first saw was delievered in was 97 degrees with very high humidity.  This second saw was delivered at 96 degrees with the same high humidity(Houston, TX), so I really feel that temperature/humidity have nothing to do with this problem.
After using the saw to check for accuracy, the miter remained silky smooth and I am completely satisfied with it's operation.  Will this last?  I guess time will tell, but one thing's for sure, this new saw's miter operation is way above the first saw's miter operation, even when it was working properly.
I don't know if this is a newer factory saw, but I am tempted to remove the plate off of the new saw and try it on the first saw before returning it, or should I leave well enough alone?
Whatever happens, I think Festool needs to make the problem public so that we all know what is going on with these saws.

Offline rnt80

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #105 on: July 18, 2008, 08:27 PM »
If you lift the black tab just in front of the lock lever does that lift the "detent tooth" off of the miter scale?

Not all of the way.  It doesn't completely clear it.  Like I mentioned previously, that little tab is scoring the miter plate on my saw to the extent that there is quite a bit of material/burrs left on the scale.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #106 on: July 18, 2008, 08:41 PM »

I don't know if this is a newer factory saw, but I am tempted to remove the plate off of the new saw and try it on the first saw before returning it, or should I leave well enough alone?
.

What has your life's experience taught you about tempting fate?
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Offline honeydokreg

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #107 on: July 18, 2008, 09:32 PM »
after being in the sun again today, as it was yesterday,.  it was a little hotter about 90- and my saw near the 3 pm mark.  it started to grind again but only on the left side...... and not on the right.

will see again on monday whats up again.
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
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Offline MiterMaster

  • Posts: 139
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #108 on: July 18, 2008, 09:39 PM »
after being in the sun again today, as it was yesterday,.  it was a little hotter about 90- and my saw near the 3 pm mark.  it started to grind again but only on the left side...... and not on the right.

will see again on monday whats up again.

Kreg, did you switch out your spring plate and are still having issues, or are you still using the original spring plate that came with your saw? 

I'm just curious as to if you have tried fixing the problem and it is still present, or if you have yet to take any corrective action at this point in time?

Mike
McDermott Interiors
Trim Carpentry by Design

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #109 on: July 18, 2008, 09:39 PM »
I just received a replacement Kapex from my dealer after complaining about the hard to adjust miter with accompanying scraping sound, and I got to say I was pleasantly supprised.  With the first saw, the miter adjustment was never as easy to adjust as with the replacement saw; and of course there was no scraping sound when moving the miter.  Note:  the miter on the first saw was very difficult to use from the start, and cycled in and out of operation.  As I mentioned in my previous post in this same thread, the temperature that the first saw was delievered in was 97 degrees with very high humidity.  This second saw was delivered at 96 degrees with the same high humidity(Houston, TX), so I really feel that temperature/humidity have nothing to do with this problem.
After using the saw to check for accuracy, the miter remained silky smooth and I am completely satisfied with it's operation.  Will this last?  I guess time will tell, but one thing's for sure, this new saw's miter operation is way above the first saw's miter operation, even when it was working properly.
I don't know if this is a newer factory saw, but I am tempted to remove the plate off of the new saw and try it on the first saw before returning it, or should I leave well enough alone?
Whatever happens, I think Festool needs to make the problem public so that we all know what is going on with these saws.

Probably not if a different spec spring plate made the difference.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 09:45 PM by Michael Kellough »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #110 on: July 18, 2008, 09:42 PM »
If you lift the black tab just in front of the lock lever does that lift the "detent tooth" off of the miter scale?

Not all of the way.  It doesn't completely clear it.  Like I mentioned previously, that little tab is scoring the miter plate on my saw to the extent that there is quite a bit of material/burrs left on the scale.

Then this is a second or possibly third issue, if the scraping of the clamp tab on top of the miter scale is a separate issue. I'd say it (clamp tab scraping) just another symptom of an incorrect spring plate.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #111 on: July 18, 2008, 09:54 PM »
after being in the sun again today, as it was yesterday,.  it was a little hotter about 90- and my saw near the 3 pm mark.  it started to grind again but only on the left side...... and not on the right.

will see again on monday whats up again.

Kreg, did you switch out your spring plate and are still having issues, or are you still using the original spring plate that came with your saw? 

I'm just curious as to if you have tried fixing the problem and it is still present, or if you have yet to take any corrective action at this point in time?

Mike

Kreg said this on another related thread,

"mine  that I bought from the first batch that came out, had bad scraping, took it back last friday and got a replacement from the second batch that woodcraft got in.  this one work very well no scraping and was doing crown all day swinging it back and forth.  seems like my problem has been solved.

quick fix?  $1,300.oo, scraping paint, etc.  no go get a new one. and festool can fix the returned ones and are already working on solving the problem,  these things happen sometimes with new stuff, but festool backs it up 100% and it is a great saw from a great company"

Offline rnt80

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #112 on: July 18, 2008, 10:15 PM »
I've never had a service issue with Festool before this.  Do I contact them about returning the saw or do I contact the dealer that I bought it from?  Additionally, how big of an issue is it that I didn't keep the box?
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline victor rasilla

  • Posts: 59
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2008, 01:38 AM »
I've had my kapex for over a week and have still not opened it yet but will be tomorrow to check it out for the problem, this whole thing has really got me down.  I've had my DW705 for more than a decade and it has given good hard working service to this day from cold to hot weather.  To think that the kapex is so touchy that you can only use it under certain mild or air conditioned circumstances or that hours must be spent fine tuning and filing parts or trying to come up with ways to make it work correctly seems absurd to me.  I consider the price of these tools to be the cost of superior engineering.  Hearing all this is very disappointing.  Didn't they use it before they made a whole bunch and shipped them out here? 

Offline honeydokreg

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #114 on: July 19, 2008, 06:03 AM »
no i did not switch out the plate.  it was doing fine last weekend doing crown, and then brought it out thurs, fine.  friday fine till later in the day when scraping started.

my fix is to take it back and get another one.  but I will wait and use it a few more times in the sun to see if it gets worse or what.

i know my woodcraft has some plates in, or they are on the way.  so I will just see.  otherwise my saw works fantastic, the best is the quite startup, and not to load.  this way I can still hear led zepplin whole lota love on my bosch boom box while i cut.!
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
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Offline honeydokreg

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #115 on: July 19, 2008, 08:56 AM »
just got back from the job I have been doing.  had to cut to small pieces.  the kapex has been sitting in their garage all night on the kapex stand.  the grinding is worse!  it is back to where it was on my first saw.

puzzeled.
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline Bob Marino

  • Posts: 3216
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #116 on: July 19, 2008, 09:57 AM »
after being in the sun again today, as it was yesterday,.  it was a little hotter about 90- and my saw near the 3 pm mark.  it started to grind again but only on the left side...... and not on the right.

will see again on monday whats up again.

Kreg, did you switch out your spring plate and are still having issues, or are you still using the original spring plate that came with your saw? 

I'm just curious as to if you have tried fixing the problem and it is still present, or if you have yet to take any corrective action at this point in time?

Mike

Kreg said this on another related thread,

"mine  that I bought from the first batch that came out, had bad scraping, took it back last friday and got a replacement from the second batch that woodcraft got in.  this one work very well no scraping and was doing crown all day swinging it back and forth.  seems like my problem has been solved.

quick fix?  $1,300.oo, scraping paint, etc.  no go get a new one. and festool can fix the returned ones and are already working on solving the problem,  these things happen sometimes with new stuff, but festool backs it up 100% and it is a great saw from a great company"

 My understanding, it's not the "batch" it's that all the saws coming out now have been checked to ensure that the plates are .15 mm or greater from the scales.

Bob
Former Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!

Offline Tony M

  • Posts: 61
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #117 on: July 19, 2008, 10:24 AM »
Bob, I had my plate and lever assembly off and it still scraped ( top side of scale).

Offline Eiji Fuller

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #118 on: July 19, 2008, 10:50 AM »
I'm afraid that the solution that has been come up with by festool is one that solves a problem that we do not have.

[u]The scaping is not caused by the locking tab and steel spring under the miter handle.[/b][/u]

The scaping is caused by the detent spring plunger rubbing on the stainless steel miter scale. The spring steel is harder than the stainless and creates a bur. Once that bur is removed by sanding the inside edge of the miter scale the scraping goes away.

Since that area of the miter scale is not part of the miter lock mechanism a little teflon lube can be applied.

The other problem is with the stiffness of the miter turn table.  The fix:

Replace the spring washer at the center post.

parts needed:

5/8 ID small outside diameter washer
5/16 ID nylon washer

Directions.

Remove inserts.
Remove center post nut. 
Remove center post washers. The spring washer is just a bit thicker than the 5/8ID small outside diameter washer.
Install the 5/8 ID small outside diameter washer in place of the spring washer.
Install 5/16 nylon washer
Place the top washer on top of the nylon washer and tighten the center nut.

PROBLEM SOLVED.


I had scaping. I had a stiff table. NO MORE.

Pics to come. ater breakfast.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 10:53 AM by Eiji Fuller »

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #119 on: July 19, 2008, 11:18 AM »
Eiji, there really is a problem with the miter locking mech. this is causing the scraping on some saws, what you are describing is a different issue all together. I do like your idea of to replace the spring washer in theory, however, we don't know what the long term effects that modification could have on the saw. It's an expensive tool and you don't want to do any modification that might void the warranty.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.