Author Topic: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?  (Read 61583 times)

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Offline amt

  • Posts: 379
Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« on: September 09, 2013, 09:11 PM »
Just wondering how people feel about ripping stock that is already quite narrow, like 2-3".   Let's say you have a bunch of boards that are 3-1/8", and they all need to be 3".  This would be a very simple and very fast job on a table saw.  I am, however, having trouble doing this efficiently and accurately with the track saw.

First, you need some more material with the same height, to put to the left of the stock to cut, so the track has full support (so it wont tilt to the left), and something to clamp the track to -not that big of a deal.  The real problem I have is that the material to cut is not really secured in any way.  It's not clamped to the track because the t-slots are on the right side of the track.  And since you typically start & plunge the saw before the material, then push in to the material, at first there is very little pressure on material (from the track).  I experienced on occasion that the material moves right when engaging it.

Does anyone have any suggestions to ensure the material stays put?  Some sort of clamping that does not interfere with the path of the cut?

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline RL

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2013, 09:16 PM »
There are a few techniques that FOGgers have come up with in the past. Here is mine.


Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2013, 09:19 PM »
Here's a thread on the subject also, some useful info there if you can ignore the metric derailment. http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/how-to-efficiently-rip-a-bunch-of-strips-with-a-track-saw/
+1

Offline fidelfs

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 09:27 PM »
Check this video from Guido Henn at 2:30 he starts cutting small strips and he uses a ingenious clamp.




There is never a situation where it can't be done with the right hand tool - even though it may be a lot more work.

Offline deepcreek

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 10:01 PM »
Does anyone have any suggestions to ensure the material stays put?  Some sort of clamping that does not interfere with the path of the cut?

I prefer to use a tablesaw for narrow rips but have done them with my TS55.

I use a few strips of blue painters tape to secure another board to the one being cut.
Joe Adams
TimberFire Studio
Houston, Texas

http://www.facebook.com/timberfire

Offline amt

  • Posts: 379
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 10:44 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions.  The creative clamping should probably work to keep the material in place.  I guess the only downside is that it's probably going to be slower than table saw method.

Offline GhostFist

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 11:28 PM »
I believe RMV devolved a simple narrow strip jig that attaches to your rail.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2013, 11:40 PM »
To keep narrow pieces from sliding clamp or otherwise  attach  a piece of scrap at the run out end of the rail to push the piece being cut against.


Seth

Offline RobBob

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 11:57 PM »
Narrow stock ripdogs work GREAT!  I have been very impressed with their accuracy and ease of use.  No extra material needed.  ripdogs.com

I have no interest in the company what so ever.

Offline ceddy

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2013, 10:25 AM »
If I need to rip a few boards (6-9 inch wide) into 2 inch strips or so, I use the parallel guides. Makes the cuts easy, safe and accurate. To keep everything stable while cutting I place some more boards or pieces of the same thickness under the guide rail behind the piece I am cutting. You only need to do this when your stock is narrower then the guide rail in the first place.

I have most all the festool tools and for me the guide rails are really what transform the TS saws into table saws. Along with the kapex UG stand you can really produce accurate cuts.


Offline fshanno

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2013, 06:46 PM »
Used to do it a lot for face frame parts and so on.  Had an 8' long ripping platform made of plywood.  It had a fence of sorts and I used gauge blocks to set the rip width.  Supported the guide as necessary with other pieces the same thickness.

Never had much trouble with pieces moving.  It just wasn't a problem.

I could cut very thin pieces from very thin pieces.  For example......

92260-0

92262-1

92264-2

92266-3

92268-4

How's that for a thin rip from a thin piece?

A tablesaw is faster and more "normal" but a track saw is pretty cool.



The one thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history.

Offline RobBob

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2013, 07:52 PM »
Narrow stock rip guides can do that easily without an extra platform..
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 07:54 PM by rljatl »

Offline bigGaloot

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2013, 09:31 PM »
Does anyone have any suggestions to ensure the material stays put?  Some sort of clamping that does not interfere with the path of the cut?

I prefer to use a tablesaw for narrow rips but have done them with my TS55.

I use a few strips of blue painters tape to secure another board to the one being cut.

+1 Sometimes one needs to use a table saw... for efficiency.  I'll use the TS if I have one cut to make from thin stock, but rarely is that the case. 

I will say that I have downsized my table saw to a compact version... solely because of the TS... and that has made more room in the van.

Offline amt

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 11:26 PM »
I guess I need to improve my technique.  I would have never guessed one could rip something like that, where the height is more than the width.  I would have thought even the slightest wobble could happen easily.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2013, 11:35 PM »
I guess I need to improve my technique.  I would have never guessed one could rip something like that, where the height is more than the width.  I would have thought even the slightest wobble could happen easily.

You just need to make sure the piece is supported in the right places with a flat platform underneath.

Seth

Offline hrrb

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2013, 01:55 AM »
Check this video from Guido Henn at 2:30 he starts cutting small strips and he uses a ingenious clamp.






...and a cheap bastard like me not having an MFT find the cutting board at 5:50 very smart!  [tongue] I have to make one of those for right angled cuts.

/Henrik

Offline fshanno

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2013, 02:13 AM »
I guess I need to improve my technique.  I would have never guessed one could rip something like that, where the height is more than the width.  I would have thought even the slightest wobble could happen easily.

That was a demo for a thread about this same topic years ago on the FOG.  I remembered it and found the pictures.  What I was shooting for was something that would be a challenge on a table saw.  Now very thin rips are routine on a tablesaw, especially if the keeper can be on the side away from the fence.  But how about an 8 foot long  0.160" wide rip from a piece that starts out a little less than 1/2" wide?  The would be very interesting on a tablesaw don't you thing?  And maybe a little scary?  Personally I wouldn't attempt it, riving knife or no riving knife.   Yet the TS55 handled it.

Even in production that kind of accuracy, one or two thousandths was routine with that ripping platform.   As good as a table saw.  Just slower.  In the end the slower part was decisive.  I bought a cabinet saw.
The one thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history.

Offline Mark Enomoto

  • Posts: 269
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2013, 03:40 PM »
I've been tempted to buy a Bosch site saw to complement Festool as ripping thin stuff AND repeatedly is the achilles heel of the Festool system. It can be done, but in a production environment (not mine) time is more valuable... what I've concepted here is akin to a flap on an airplane wing that is adjustable from 0mm thickness to however wide the flap is. Like a flap on a wing, this moves up and down relative to the thickness of the board.

92290-0

Offline RL

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2015, 12:36 PM »
Here's a simple jig I put together to cut 20 identical thin table legs with my TS55.


Offline #Tee

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2015, 12:21 AM »
it is annoying to cut thin stock with the ts. every saw has its own place in the shop. this however isnt something i like setting up.
When youre feeling depressed just treat yourself to a systainer even if its a mini systainer its ok.

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Offline RL

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2015, 07:13 AM »
I was trying to show how ripping thin stock doesn't have to be difficult or "annoying."

Offline Holmz

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2015, 08:02 AM »
I've been tempted to buy a Bosch site saw to complement Festool as ripping thin stuff AND repeatedly is the achilles heel of the Festool system.
...

The Bosch clamp slot nearest the splitter strip is about a cm back from the cut.
It is not as easy as a table saw, but it does make it possible and practical to cut thin strips.
Whether it makes more sense to buy a second track saw, or get a small table saw depends on the usual cost, usage and other factors.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2015, 08:33 AM »
Nice jig Richard!  Always enjoy seeing how you come up with simple jigs that maximize the abilities of you saw.

Peter

Offline Woodwork Wizard

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2015, 08:36 AM »
Is ripping narrow stock the TS Achilles heel?

Not at all if you have an MFT/3 and a CMS angle guide. Or you could use bench dogs as a fence and use the MFT/3 protractor in exactly the same way.

It's very accurate, really quick to set up and it is completely safe - I've regularly cut thin strips from 1 - 200mm, though I do have a hardwood block (see photo) as an extension fence that stops thin offcuts from moving. As long as there's plenty of material under the guide rail this method works flawlessly. 

There's 3 strips at the bottom right of photo that are all exactly the same width.




Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2015, 12:12 PM »
It is an achilles heel if we are talking true productivity, it's not really a drawback, a Track saw just doesn't excel as it. The only reason to use a Track saw for thin pieces , IMHO is if its the only saw available for the task.

I can resaw 3" thick or wide pieces on a table saw, I don't because I have a bandsaw and it's meant for the purpose without an extra jig.

I cut off the stack of ply with a track saw, I don't lug my table saw to the pile and toss the sheets across it becasue the Track saw is much simpler to move around than a 4x8 sheet piece of ply.  And it doesn't require a jig or an out feed table etc.

I cut thin and narrow pieces on a table saw. I use my DeWalt 7491, which by the way has the best fence I have ever seen on a  stock table saw for  thin and narrow pieces. This table saw  excels at it.

1 : Fence in regular position, notice the black push stick held tightly in place on the left side of the fence and the second thin  stock fence to the left:



2:

This shows the flipping the thin stock fence over to the right:



3: This shows the thin stock fence in the down useable position to the right of the main fence This is the best system I have seen with a stock fence. The flip fence works very well for cutting thin AND narrow stock and takes seconds to flip back and forth. No matter what track saw or jig set used with a track saw, its just not going to work as well as this. If productivity is the key I suggest getting a table saw to compliment the track saw.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 12:16 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Tayler_mann

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2015, 12:57 PM »
I feel like ripping thin stock is actually extremely easy and quick with the right setup. I use my 4' x 8' Mft in partnership with precision rip dogs, bench dogs and clamps. Also if it is 16-20 mm I stack them and do two at once for the mirrored parts. I do have to say if I had the Festool parallel guides and extensions I feel like I could rip thin material way faster than a table saw/edge jointer can. I actually raced my mentor not to long ago making a standard cabinet doors rail and stile and I wooped him with my TS setup. He tried it though and it took him 4 times as long. So I feel it is what you are used to. Also, I use my TS to cut quarter sawn edge banding about 1-2 mm thick. It really gets a clean cut for that thin. When I do it I always straight line 1/2 a blades width off of my dimensional lumber. Cut as many 1-2 mm strips as I can first to use up my scrap. So than instead of having 20,000 5-20mm twigs of scrap I have nice roles of quarter dawn edge banding. It's a good way to save scrap.

Offline jacko9

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2015, 01:17 PM »
This all sounds like a whole lot of work just to avoid using a table saw which is (in my opinion) safer for ripping thin strips and a whole lot quicker.

Jack

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2015, 01:39 PM »
I am with you jacko9.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 01:44 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Tayler_mann

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2015, 03:58 PM »
This all sounds like a whole lot of work just to avoid using a table saw which is (in my opinion) safer for ripping thin strips and a whole lot quicker.

Jack

I have found it all comes to one thing, "preferences". Table saws are great but also great at creating more work of inaccurate and poor quality (ie. Contractor saws). Also, it depends on your applications of what you are doing. If you are building a piece that you plan to have someone spend $250 great. If that same piece with more intrict details is being sold for $1,000 you better have some darn perfect construction and I find it easier with my TS. I can mirror parts easily, rip them perfectly square and 90 first go about with 0 kerf marks. It just seems to work better for me than my cheaper table saw.

Offline bkharman

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2015, 04:01 PM »
I like my "best of both worlds".

A TS 55 for rail work, and my TS 75 under a plate in my CMS. It has worked great for everything I throw at it!

I know not everyone can go that route but if space is tight, it is a great solution!!

Cheers. Bryan.
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Tinker

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2015, 04:39 PM »
When i brought home my ATF 55 and MFT 1080, I was finally able to ge rid of my table saw.  I have been able to cut very thin strips I never was able to cut before.

For long strips, i have a set of RMW's rip guides.  I have roped thin strips using those up to 7 feet in length.  I could do longer.  I like the set up shown by Woodworking Wizard using the MFT/3 protractor for shorter pieces. 

Cutting very short very thin strips with the table saw to me is a little scary.  Using the methods I describe (as others have explained as well) is very safe and accurate as long as a block is used at end of cut to keep the strip, which is actually the off cut, from flying off into space.

For long thin pieces on my old table saw was a great big hastle.  for cutting short pieces, it was quicker than with my TS 55, i have to admit.  If I were doing a lot of production work, I would figure some way to make space in my shop for a small table saw.  But my work is generally a "one and done" proposition.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2015, 05:01 PM »
I like my "best of both worlds".

A TS 55 for rail work, and my TS 75 under a plate in my CMS. It has worked great for everything I throw at it!

I know not everyone can go that route but if space is tight, it is a great solution!!

Cheers. Bryan.

Well a CMS for all practical purposes is a table saw. It is another way to go for someone  that needs a table saw. I prefer the stand alone of a bench top type.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 05:05 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline RL

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2015, 05:12 PM »
I didn't post the 2 minute video to start some nonsense about tablesaws vs tracksaws. I did it because I had to use my tracksaw at home in my garage away from my workshop and needed to come up with a quick and simple way to rip 2 dozen pieces of lumber repeatedly.

The video was just my idea of a quick tip with what was available to me at the time- I didn't suggest it was the best way or the only way.

Offline Holmz

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2015, 07:13 PM »
I didn't post the 2 minute video to start some nonsense about tablesaws vs tracksaws. I did it because I had to use my tracksaw at home in my garage away from my workshop and needed to come up with a quick and simple way to rip 2 dozen pieces of lumber repeatedly.

The video was just my idea of a quick tip with what was available to me at the time- I didn't suggest it was the best way or the only way.

I am with you, it is a nice method.

With the Bosch rail there are 2 clamping slots, so one can clamp something about 1" square and cut it.
Usually one would run something like that into a disc sander or back through a table saw, but if a track saw is the only thing around, then it works well (assuming it is a Bosch rail compatible track saw).

The FT rail appears to have only a single clamp slot opposite the splinter strip.

Offline #Tee

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2015, 07:21 PM »
its annoying because it takes extra setup time + extra parts/jigs thats all. we just want to push the saw/stock and go. end rant.
When youre feeling depressed just treat yourself to a systainer even if its a mini systainer its ok.

IG: tee212

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2015, 08:20 PM »
So perhaps we look at things differently.  Richard revived this thread with an example of "how you can do it" versus "this is that absolutely best way of doing it if you have a shop with a table saw or a ton of accessories".  I can't say that I have ever seen a table saw in one of Richard's excellent videos.

Thinking outside the norm and coming up with ways to make things out of scrap to help you accomplish a task has long been a back bone of carpentry and woodworking since the beginning of time. 

The woodworking industry is probably second to cooking in the peddling of "must need" and "gotta have" accessories that once used end up in a drawer or box.

Peter

Offline jacko9

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2015, 09:07 PM »
This all sounds like a whole lot of work just to avoid using a table saw which is (in my opinion) safer for ripping thin strips and a whole lot quicker.

Jack

I have found it all comes to one thing, "preferences". Table saws are great but also great at creating more work of inaccurate and poor quality (ie. Contractor saws). Also, it depends on your applications of what you are doing. If you are building a piece that you plan to have someone spend $250 great. If that same piece with more intrict details is being sold for $1,000 you better have some darn perfect construction and I find it easier with my TS. I can mirror parts easily, rip them perfectly square and 90 first go about with 0 kerf marks. It just seems to work better for me than my cheaper table saw.

I beg to differ since I have a very accurate cabinet table saw (Powermatic 66) and I do build high end furniture that I sell in the $5K -10K range so I can't afford to make mistakes with exotic hardwoods nor take the time to set up alternative means to ripping a simple accurate cut on my table saw.  I never advocated using a cheap table saw or using a cheap track saw either.

Jack

Offline DanielOB

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2015, 01:14 PM »
a table saw is dangerous for cutting narrow strips, because the strip can bend away from the fence and toward the blade.
It is much safer and more accurate to do it with  [wink]KS track saw:
-put the strip to cut on the table
-put at right side the same thickness stock and a rail over it, and align it to the cutting line (shim it as need)
-put the strip, as a fence, to the left from the cutting strip. Fix the fence.
-cut the strip which is pressed from both sides, and from top by the rail. Do not apply to much side pressure or the blade may bind.
 [wink]

Offline Tinker

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2015, 05:15 AM »
a table saw is dangerous for cutting narrow strips, because the strip can bend away from the fence and toward the blade.
It is much safer and more accurate to do it with  [wink]KS track saw:
-put the strip to cut on the table
-put at right side the same thickness stock and a rail over it, and align it to the cutting line (shim it as need)
-put the strip, as a fence, to the left from the cutting strip. Fix the fence.
-cut the strip which is pressed from both sides, and from top by the rail. Do not apply to much side pressure or the blade may bind.
 [wink]

A narrow strip cut with TS 55 can become a powerful missile just a dangerous to anything away from the operator.  Becaause of the geometry of the rail and the way you hold the track saw, the missile never is a danger to the operator.  It can be a danger to anybody/any thing to the side away from the operator.
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2015, 04:43 PM »
Here's how I go about narrow rips:

Basic Narrow Rip Jig

 [unsure]  You are now just five (5) cuts away from your own Narrow-Rip jig.   [wink]


This is just the first portion that illustrates the basic concept. Should I complete this project soon, I will start a separate thread for it here at that time.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 07:16 PM by Corwin »

Offline Tinker

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2015, 04:52 PM »
Corwin, all i see is a blank page.  You must be cutting very thin stock  [poke]
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2015, 04:55 PM »
Treading on thin ice...


Try again. Oh, and I have a special section just with you in mind, Tinker, but you'll have to wait for the completed version.  [big grin]

Offline Tinker

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2015, 05:06 PM »
I can hardly wait.

Oh>>> I can see now.  must have been that i had just come in from the sun lite.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2015, 05:24 PM »
Well, if you go to my thread at talkFestool you can get a sneak peek. You may even notice the inspiration I got from you.  [tongue] [big grin] Enjoy. And you know I'm just pulling your chain, don't you?  [cool]


Or, I could just post a sneak peek here:

« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 03:25 AM by Corwin »

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2015, 03:24 AM »
This all sounds like a whole lot of work just to avoid using a table saw which is (in my opinion) safer for ripping thin strips and a whole lot quicker.

Jack

It depends. If you have to make a lot of repeated cuts for the same width, say for rails and stiles then Tom Bader came up with a great jig.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/how-i-rip-ff-and-door-pieces/

For shorter length pieces I use what woodwork wizard does. easier the rolling out and setting up a table saw. ya just need a second angle stop.

To easy

Offline Bohdan

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2015, 04:54 AM »
Had to cut a pile of 6mm plywood x 20mm wide and needed a clean edge that would not require any rework. Table saw was out as the edge on ply is not good enough so I looked at the MFT for a solution.

The lengths required were longer than the normal capacity of the MFT so I took the rail guides off the MFT and rotated them, and a FS1400 rail, -90 degrees.

Set the rail 22.2mm from the existing fence. Used the stop on the fence to prevent the offcut shooting forward and cut my pieces. No chipping on either side of the cut and the job was done.

If you cut a particular size regularly it would be an easy option to fit a set of stops like those used to locate the rail in the normal position. This setup also enables you to do an initial trim cut if required.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2015, 05:56 AM »
Well, if you go to my thread at talkFestool you can get a sneak peek. You may even notice the inspiration I got from you.  [tongue] [big grin] Enjoy. And you know I'm just pulling your chain, don't you?  [cool]


Or, I could just post a sneak peek here:

(Attachment Link)

@ Corwin,
I seem to missing the point of my inspiration for your rather ingenious, yet very simple method.  Perhaps it is the “simple” part where I have come in.

All kidding aside, you seem to have all bases covered, especially the missile protection.  That stop method is basically the same method I am using at the end of my cuts when the off cut is very thin. 

I like your idea of hinging the rail to a rabbeted piece of plywood that is lying loose against blocking (I am sure the blocking IS clamped down.  I think that either the backside of the sheet with the piano hinge, or the front side of the backing should have some amount of bevel so the plywood does not shift forward as it rises to self adjust for the height of the guage blocking underneath the rail.  Is the edge the piano hinge attached to beveled as well?

I am wondering why the space under he rail.  I will just have to wait  [popcorn]

I have to go out a spread grass seed on a couple of jobs this morning, but will play around with your idea when i get home.  i have been using RMW's guides for narrow ripping, but am always looking at other ideas.  Yours seems to be almost fool proof.  Maybe that eliminates me.  Oh well >>>>>>> 'nuff said. [unsure]
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2015, 11:40 AM »

@ Corwin,
I seem to missing the point of my inspiration for your rather ingenious, yet very simple method.  Perhaps it is the “simple” part where I have come in.

All kidding aside, you seem to have all bases covered, especially the missile protection.  That stop method is basically the same method I am using at the end of my cuts when the off cut is very thin. 
...
Tinker

No, you haven't missed the point about your inspiration at all. I was thinking of giving you a call and ask if a I could include your photo of a board going through your shop wall in my model.  [scared] [unsure] [big grin]  I was thinking of panning up to view that photo hanging on the virtual shop's wall then panning down and installing that backstop.  Lots of silly ideas come to me while in the shower.  [tongue]


Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2015, 01:08 PM »

@ Corwin,
...

I like your idea of hinging the rail to a rabbeted piece of plywood that is lying loose against blocking (I am sure the blocking IS clamped down.  I think that either the backside of the sheet with the piano hinge, or the front side of the backing should have some amount of bevel so the plywood does not shift forward as it rises to self adjust for the height of the guage blocking underneath the rail.  Is the edge the piano hinge attached to beveled as well?

I am wondering why the space under he rail.  I will just have to wait  [popcorn]

...
Tinker

Does this screen shot help? In this shot you can see the cut line on your left with the workpiece up against the short 'work' fence. Between the work fence and the back fence we have two (2) additional (same thickness) workpieces to support both the rail and its attached hinged backboard (which I show clamped in place here). This 'scaled' version doesn't require such a tall back fence, as the scales only require the back fence when initially calibrated -- don't worry, I'll show that in the final version too.



This is why I begin with a most basic version to illustrate the concept. Each version adds elements. Show someone something that appears too complex and they will likely just move on. I thought this approach would keep everyone on track, so to speak.  [tongue]

Anyway, we'll expect to see some narrow rips soon after you are home.  [wink] [big grin]
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 01:25 PM by Corwin »

Offline Holmz

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2015, 07:17 PM »
The Bosch rails have a clamp about 10-mm back from the splinter guard. I think is where a rail connector is at in your sketch.

So one can clamp pieces as narrow as about 10-mm, although I only have done ones around 1" wide.

The sketch above looks complicated.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2015, 08:25 PM »
Corwin,

Sp g;lad to see you back posting!  No matter what some posters say, I say after watching your video a couple of times:   [thumbs up] [thumbs up] [thumbs up]

Peter

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2015, 09:23 PM »
Thanks Peter. I do appreciate that.

I haven't been able to use my tools that much since I became disabled back in the summer of '07. But doing a little fence project earlier this summer inspired me to undertake this yet-to-be-completed SketchUp animation. I wanted to fill three sections of fence with narrow strips spaced a few inches apart, rather than the privacy boards that fill the neighboring sections. So, I needed to cut about 50 narrow strips (1-1/4" or so) from wider fence boards and make a template to assist with their installation. During the process I thought back on how I had wanted to document this operation in the past, and it was a shame that I wasn't able to document what I was doing then. But later I thought about doing this using SketchUp. I could start simple and build upon that. However, I had to learn SketchUp, and this was a great project to use to learn the program. As for my fence project, those narrow boards came out wonderful and having both the tools and jigs that are easy to setup and use made that project a pleasure. Especially for someone that is disabled. Makes me want to go clean the shop. And it is probably a good thing that Festool no longer sends me tool catalogs anymore...  [tongue]

I do hope to show you all more soon.  [big grin]

Offline Holmz

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2015, 09:41 PM »
Corwin,

Sp g;lad to see you back posting!  No matter what some posters say, I say after watching your video a couple of times:   [thumbs up] [thumbs up] [thumbs up]

Peter

I agree - it is nice to see cleaver solutions and do not want to take anything away from the great ideas.

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2015, 11:19 PM »
The Bosch rails have a clamp about 10-mm back from the splinter guard. I think is where a rail connector is at in your sketch.

So one can clamp pieces as narrow as about 10-mm, although I only have done ones around 1" wide.

The sketch above looks complicated.

If you are referring to my SketchUp drawing, then I would ask if you had watched the animation that I posted earlier? The setup in the illustration is explained by, and works exactly like the one in the animation, except it has the hinged-backboard, or wing, that speeds up the operation. This more advanced version does require that the back fence be spaced further -- the sum of the widths of rail and the backboard, to be exact -- to account for that backboard. And anyone interested in making one of the examples I illustrate will likely want to make something that uses this hinged feature.

With my large panel jig (I used to have photos of that here, but took them down after an exceptionally rude post from an apparently extremely irritated [then] new member) and a sacrificial base (that I used to use when I owned two (2) MFT1080s that I liked best conjoined along their long profiles) used together can, and has worked exactly like the jigs that I've drawn for this instructional animation. And with that arrangement, I have cut 50 or so strips in about an hour's time - keep in mind that I'm disabled and not as young as I once was, so you most likely will be much faster  [wink]. Do you think there is any way to compete with that with a rail that requires clamping in place for each cut? I just don't see that Bosh rail being all that great. But, that's just my opinion based from my experience. Your experience may vary.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 11:24 PM by Corwin »

Offline Holmz

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2015, 12:35 AM »
... I have cut 50 or so strips in about an hour's time - keep in mind that I'm disabled and not as young as I once was, so you most likely will be much faster  [wink].
I think I might be slower  [unsure]. It is clearly fast when you have multiple parts.

Do you think there is any way to compete with that with a rail that requires clamping in place for each cut? NO

I just don't see that Bosch rail being all that great. But, that's just my opinion based from my experience. Your experience may vary.

And I totally am off on the minimum size, as it is closer to 30-mm.
But for one-offs it works well.


It frustrates me that Festool, Bosch, etc, etc , etc all have NAINA and NA-elsewhere.
That is not the fault of the end user, but it make life difficult for a lot of people.

I am not sure I will need to cut a lot of parts, but you jig is making me wonder how to apply it.
The more I look at it the more it's good.

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2015, 01:25 AM »

...
I am not sure I will need to cut a lot of parts, but you jig is making me wonder how to apply it.
The more I look at it the more it's good.

Is my animated video not clear enough? I'm sorry. Sometimes it is difficult knowing how much I need to explain something to others, as I already understand, and maybe too often think that someone else is able to follow along. So, that may be my inability to communicate well enough. But, if you say it looks better with each look, by all means print up a copy to look at some more. Ha, ha, ha, now I'm just kidding. Anyway, I do hope you will understand once I present the final version that will continue on to show how to make the hinged version, how it operates and then add accessories; the 'Tinker' backstop  [blink] and an example of how you could add scales to replace the use of spacers that are used in the earlier examples.

No one jig or method of operation is likely to suit all users. Some people have different needs, or conditions in which they work, or a variety of other reasons and considerations. So, I do take no offense if someone doesn't like my methods. That's fine with me. But it does bother me to learn that I cannot express myself in a way in which others can readily understand. This is then my failure. And here I thought this animation would be clear. Hmmm. I'll have to work on this. [sad]

Offline CrazyLarry

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2015, 02:11 AM »
Is my animated video not clear enough? I'm sorry. Sometimes it is difficult knowing how much I need to explain something to others, as I already understand, and maybe too often think that someone else is able to follow along. So, that may be my inability to communicate well enough. But, if you say it looks better with each look, by all means print up a copy to look at some more. Ha, ha, ha, now I'm just kidding. Anyway, I do hope you will understand once I present the final version that will continue on to show how to make the hinged version, how it operates and then add accessories; the 'Tinker' backstop  [blink] and an example of how you could add scales to replace the use of spacers that are used in the earlier examples.

No one jig or method of operation is likely to suit all users. Some people have different needs, or conditions in which they work, or a variety of other reasons and considerations. So, I do take no offense if someone doesn't like my methods. That's fine with me. But it does bother me to learn that I cannot express myself in a way in which others can readily understand. This is then my failure. And here I thought this animation would be clear. Hmmm. I'll have to work on this. [sad]

It might be a me thing (very likely) but I invariably find animations as clear as mud (and sometimes irritating!) was there a link to the model itself or just static images then I might have a bit more clue what on earth is going on because at the moment I neither grasp the method or the point!!! Looks like some sort of game where you have to keep 6 pieces of wood still while operating moving machinery... probably ok as a spectator sport!

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2015, 02:45 AM »
Oh, now that is disturbing. Well, I can't think of any jig that I've made to use with our Festool Guide Rails that doesn't index off the backside of the rail rather than make an attempt to locate at the cutline using the Guide Rail's splinter strip. Indexing off the backside of the Guide Rail then requires one to establish the offset from the location where the saw cuts the Rail's splinter guard  to the outward most pint along the Rail's back edge. The juggling of pieces in the beginning is simply cutting a sheet in half, not the best start, but it then follows by cutting that all-important strip that will match the width of your Guide Rail -- the width of this piece is your offset. After that I cut another piece that is twice that width to use in the layout of the back and front fences that these jigs all sport -- this may become more clear when you see the Hinged version being built. After that, the two fences follow before proceeding on to assemble the first most basic jig. That jig should be considered our instructional example, as will become obvious later. Yet, one could make one like this in the field when the circumstances allowed. Even three floors up you may find the materials to make a basic jig on hand. Or not. [blink]

To use my jigs, you place the board you wish to cut up against the shorter 'work' fence and then place another piece (or two for the later versions that have the hinged backboard) to support the Guide Rail on the left-hand side (between the back and front fences.) This method of using another piece or two of the same, or at least same thickness material to support the Guide Rail is a common method and many methods of cutting narrow strips require this. My jigs are no different. Anyway, with the board you are to cut in place against the fence and the support board(s) on the other side of that fence, you could then place your Guide Rail on top of those boards (it will sit level due to the support pieces below) and up against the back fence and find that the splinter guard now aligns, or should, with the left edge of the piece you want to cut -- a cut with the saw should then remove only the kerf line from the workpiece, and the blade should just skim along the 'work' fence. That's ZERO. So, pulling the Rail away, and placing a spacer (the desired width of the cut you wish make) against the back fence first, and then place the Rail up to the spacer yields a Rail at the proper location. What a lengthy explanation.  [scared] Sounds intimidating just writing this. But it definitely is not in real time. If you'll try it, I'll try and sit quietly...  [blink]

If you still are having trouble following along, might I suggest you spend a few minutes and simply make the jig as I have shown. I've covered most details. It truly will not be difficult and not take very much time. And when you've completed it, you will wonder why you hadn't thought of it yourself. Well, that's probably how I might feel if the shoe was on the other foot. And I wear size eleven's.  [big grin]
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 03:25 AM by Corwin »

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2015, 03:35 AM »
Maybe this is a waste of my time. Heck, if I cannot explain this in a way in which others can understand and my animation is considered clear as mud, then I certainly have failed. It just takes far too much time to continue with this animation if nobody will understand how this works. I am disappointed. Oh, well.  [sad]

Offline Bohdan

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2015, 04:19 AM »
@Corwin Just because some don't follow your animation it doesn't mean that the rest of us don't understand perfectly.

I find that your animation way of explaining the construction is one of the best methods that I have seen.

My only comment is that had you included a verbal description of what you were doing, rather than written notes, it would have been much better.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2015, 05:38 AM »
@ Corwin,
Don't give up the jig.  There are some of us who struggle with written explanations.  Uh, certainly not me.  I tell my wife i am the smartest man in the world.  she doesn't believe me either.  for some of us (all the other guys, not me  ::)) the drawings and animates are most helpful.  I am  eagerly awaiting your next animation.

In reality, I almost never understand written directions until after several repeats.  I do have a much easier time with diagrams, blue prints, animations (of which you seem to be very talented) and any visuals.  That is strange to me, as i have double vision.  My handicap does lead to some activity problems, but, as I suspect with your own handicap, there is always a way.  The fact that I see double should make it more difficult to understand visuals, but that is not the case. 

I had thought you just got tired of the FOG and that's why I had not noticed any of your postings.  Or i had just not tuned into any of your postings. Sorry to find you have been handicapped.  I am glad you are back with us.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

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Offline Holmz

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2015, 07:39 AM »
... So, that may be my inability to communicate well enough
...
But it does bother me to learn that I cannot express myself in a way in which others can readily understand.
...

It takes two to communicate.
I would suggest that you not use my inattentiveness and comprehension as a gauge of your communication skill. At best it is a gauge of our joint-communication.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2015, 07:58 AM »
Corwin,  can't wait to see the final version!

Peter

Offline CrazyLarry

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2015, 08:41 AM »
Maybe this is a waste of my time. Heck, if I cannot explain this in a way in which others can understand and my animation is considered clear as mud, then I certainly have failed. It just takes far too much time to continue with this animation if nobody will understand how this works. I am disappointed. Oh, well.  [sad]

Like the others have said don't be daft, it's me that doesn't get it, unlike Tinker I need a few words (to get the objective) and stills (simulates practice I guess) to pick up the technique / process. The animation is clever but makes me feel like I'm staring into the eyes of shere khan and forget to focus on what's going on!!! :)

and just because one person (or 10) doesn't 'get it' is no reason at all to give up.

I shall try again this eve  ...

Offline fattywilliams

  • Posts: 17
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2015, 12:32 PM »
hi i was just reading the early post in this and it seems bosch rail system would help as you can clap alot nearer the cutting edge wich got me thinking has anyone thought of modifying or making a clamp for the festool rail which would slide in slot on bottom of rail but instead of being parallel like the standard one have it sitting at 90 degrees just with clamping foot just back from the cutting edge

Offline Tayler_mann

  • Posts: 416
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2015, 12:53 PM »
hi i was just reading the early post in this and it seems bosch rail system would help as you can clap alot nearer the cutting edge wich got me thinking has anyone thought of modifying or making a clamp for the festool rail which would slide in slot on bottom of rail but instead of being parallel like the standard one have it sitting at 90 degrees just with clamping foot just back from the cutting edge

Wouldn't you like to know when my CNC mill has a day of no jobs to run through it.  [big grin] I am definitely going to try to make a clamp out of the MFT table screw clamps and make my own articulating arm clamp. They will not be sold as I would have to buy another mill but could give some people a good idea hopefully to make their own. I feel if you had a welder it would be pretty easy with a few nuts and t channel bolts and a set of clamps with some slight modifications.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2015, 05:39 PM »
hi i was just reading the early post in this and it seems bosch rail system would help as you can clap alot nearer the cutting edge wich got me thinking has anyone thought of modifying or making a clamp for the festool rail which would slide in slot on bottom of rail but instead of being parallel like the standard one have it sitting at 90 degrees just with clamping foot just back from the cutting edge

The pictures/sketch suggested that three was a slot on the top
Of that channel already, and I don't think it can have a slot on both sides.

Offline Rusty Miller

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2015, 01:11 PM »
@Corwin
Please don't stop with your postings and animations.  I have followed you for a long time on the FOG and am always excited with what you are working on.  Keep up the good work and come up with some plans for this when finished.

Rusty
Rusty Miller
I'd rather be woodworking!

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2015, 02:00 PM »
@Corwin
Please don't stop with your postings and animations.  I have followed you for a long time on the FOG and am always excited with what you are working on.  Keep up the good work and come up with some plans for this when finished.

Rusty

Thanks, Rusty. But no, I do not plan on continuing with the animation. It is simply far, far, far too much time and effort for something that has proved not to be as useful as I had hoped. It was a fun learning experience for me, as I hadn't ever spent the time to get the hang of SketchUp in the past, and I thought it would be a fun way to illustrate my methods, but I guess it just is more than others can follow.

I've looked through my drawing file and figure that I could just make a few adjustments here and there and make a few screen shots with commentary. That would be quick, as I have already drawn up everything, just hadn't finished with the animation. This way, others could stare at the illustrations and try to see what is going on, rather than having the images fly on by... I'll think about this during the week and see if I want to proceed or not. I would have thought that someone would have figured out what I was attempting to explain, and would have tried it by now and got back to tell how well that worked. I'm still waiting... Heh, heh. Oh, just kidding.

My father was great at making all sorts of jigs for a variety of purposes. He was known world wide within his field for a product he manufactured for his industry. So, I guess I must have come on my jig-making ability honestly, so to speak. "Its in my jeans," he would tell me.  [wink] He was a talented man, and I was lucky to have him for a father.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2015, 02:19 PM »
These were ripped with the TS-55.

It was mentioned the cut off piece can become a projectile as the can/do on a table saw. With the narrow piece under the rail there is no way it is going anywhere. The friction strip holds the piece firmly in place.

I prefer ripping with the TS saws over any table saw I've ever used. The TS-55 is much safer to use than most contractors table saws.

Tom

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2015, 04:37 PM »
These were ripped with the TS-55.

It was mentioned the cut off piece can become a projectile as the can/do on a table saw. With the narrow piece under the rail there is no way it is going anywhere. The friction strip holds the piece firmly in place.

I prefer ripping with the TS saws over any table saw I've ever used. The TS-55 is much safer to use than most contractors table saws.

Tom

Perfect, Tom! I couldn't agree more with every word you've written. I've always been more of a private person in the past, but less so these days. I would not have mentioned my disability publicly here, but I did so in this case as testimony, if you will, to the ease of using these tools and methods as opposed to, in this instance, a table saw. This 'ease of use' has enabled me to do some things that my disability would otherwise prevent. My condition is not anywhere as dire as those that suffer from ALS like you may have become familiar with recently with the 'bucket challenge,' but it is in the same family of involuntary movement disorders in which mankind simply does not yet fully understand. Many things are extremely difficult at times. Even simple things like getting dressed. Or eating a meal armed with hazardous, and sharp utensils. Fortunately for me I have a great disposition -- well, most of the time, that is.  [tongue]

Point being, cutting thin strips from pieces that are already narrower than the GuideRail is by no means the 'Achilles Heel' as some would have you believe. They just haven't discovered the right method yet. That's all.

Oh, and I also concur with your assessment with the need for [or the lack of any such need of] a backstop. The best aspect of such an addition would likely be that of eliminating/reducing tear-out. I've never had a piece fly off. Yet, I saw a kid  do that with a table saw when I was in, oh, 7th grade -- not something you forget, but something best learned from someone else's mistake, if you catch my drift.  [blink] The next day that same kid cut off a finger using that table saw.  [crying]

You all have a great day! My wife is calling me to have a meal, so wish me luck! [scared] [big grin] Ha, ha, ha. [wink]
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 07:25 PM by Corwin »

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2015, 04:05 PM »
@Corwin
Please don't stop with your postings and animations.  I have followed you for a long time on the FOG and am always excited with what you are working on.  Keep up the good work and come up with some plans for this when finished.

Rusty

Thanks, Rusty. But no, I do not plan on continuing with the animation. It is simply far, far, far too much time and effort [... yada, yada, yada ...]

Okay, I did take 7 or 8 days away from the project, except a few moments to make some screen shots to help others understand the basic principal on which these jigs have been designed and operate -- like this one:




Here's a link to my latest update: The SketchUp discussion at talkFestool

Offline scgwhite

  • Posts: 23
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2015, 04:34 PM »
Wow - that video you've linked to is great, and a lot of work. Thanks for the effort you are putting into the community.  [big grin]

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2015, 05:54 PM »
Wow - that video you've linked to is great, and a lot of work. Thanks for the effort you are putting into the community.  [big grin]

Thank you!  [big grin]

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2015, 07:53 PM »
Corwin,

Hey Buddy you you rocked it

Peter

Offline jacko9

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #75 on: October 09, 2015, 08:18 PM »
Corwin,

I'm sure your method of ripping stock with a track saw is good for people without table saws but, just in case any younger starters to the trade read this I want to say again that a table saw is quicker and safer and for every instance you cite about fingers, flying stock,etc.  I'm sure that people trying to use a track saw to rip narrow stock have their own horror stories as well and I know the time element is without question faster on the table saw.

I only post this because the title of this post will lead people here searching for answers and I want the answers to be fair and balanced.

Jack (with 10 fingers)

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #76 on: October 09, 2015, 09:48 PM »
Corwin,

I'm sure your method of ripping stock with a track saw is good for people without table saws but, just in case any younger starters to the trade read this I want to say again that a table saw is quicker and safer and for every instance you cite about fingers, flying stock,etc.  I'm sure that people trying to use a track saw to rip narrow stock have their own horror stories as well and I know the time element is without question faster on the table saw.

I only post this because the title of this post will lead people here searching for answers and I want the answers to be fair and balanced.

Jack (with 10 fingers)

I cannot agree with your assessment of the safety aspect at all. But, I wouldn't argue with the speed of a table saw versus that of using a track saw no matter what the method. I hope that I didn't lead anyone to think that. Rather, my method is much faster than any method using a track saw that also involves clamping the rail to the workpiece. Those methods simply don't stand a chance by any stretch of one's imagination. And that is what I was referring to as to the speed of my methods. Sorry if I left any confusion.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 09:53 PM by Corwin »

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2381
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #77 on: October 09, 2015, 10:01 PM »
Corwin,  while you have devised a great way to use the track saw, others have devised safe ways to use the table saw like the "L Fence" that takes your fingers away from the blade.  My first Table Saw was a Swiss Inca that had an adjustable splitter that minimized any kick back (and I never experienced any kick back).

So while I love my Track Saw for cutting up sheet goods and trimming doors or large panels, I would never give up my Powermatic 66 Table Saw with the Excalibur Sliding Table.  While it's nowhere in the same league as the Felder saw, it does the job safely and quickly.

I agree that your method of ripping narrow stock is great for those with only a track saw.

Jack

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #78 on: October 09, 2015, 10:21 PM »
By all means, rip away.

See, I do not own a table saw.

But, if I did own a table saw, I certainly would make jigs to perform the operations that it was not otherwise readily setup to accomplish. You know the jigs I'm talking about. Would you not think that a person owning a table saw that didn't use/make a cross cut sled or any of the other typical jigs one uses with their saw was rather lacking in their skill and knowledge? Isn't the same true for a track saw?

As I see it, there are a number of operations where placing the guide rail by simply aligning its splinter guard to the intended cut line is the perfect solution. However, if you are making multiple pieces alike, wanting to align square to an adjacent edge or parallel with an opposite edge, then aligning using the splinter guard is just not the best method. It may be all you have at your disposal in some situations, but if you don't have anything more in your "toolbox," you just might not be as good with your tools as you think...

Offline jacko9

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2015, 12:52 AM »
I don't think we disagree and I'm old enough to remember turnip trucks!

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2015, 01:17 AM »
I don't think we disagree and I'm old enough to remember turnip trucks!

Just as long as you're quick enough to get out of their way, as I'm not too sure about the guy behind the wheel.  [tongue]

And, no, I don't think we disagree either. I wish they had such safety equipment on all table saws back when I used them. I was always a little on the cautious side using them. Now they are out of the question for my specific disability. But the track saw is doable for me. Well, except when used in conjunction with certain medications, that is. One of my FS1900/2 Rails has three slight cuts in it, all three cut one after the other making the same error three (yes, 3) times in succession. Wasn't it Einstein that considered that to be the definition of insanity? Heh, heh. Anyway, I didn't continue to take those meds for long.  [blink]

Offline Holmz

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2015, 03:21 AM »
That nails it really.
You're doing what you like, and while a table saw is the traditional go-to tool, you are come up with a process that allows you to get the results you want with a table saw being out of the question.
And sharing that makes it possible for others to chin-scratch for ways to apply it.

My hat is off to you.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2015, 08:17 AM »
There is no way, in a small area shop, that a table saw can be easier, safer than the track saw.  For small jobs, ripping and crosscutting might be quicker.  Anything that takes up anymore space than the table saw and its walk-around-area, the track saw is in a class of its own. 

@ Corwin, thanks for all of your effort.  my computer has spam block, so it cut out as soon as it noticed your rip setup.  [wink]
Tinker
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Offline jobsworth

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #83 on: October 11, 2015, 04:55 AM »
I had a big stationary saw, but after I started using festools, I very seldom used it. I gave it away to a buddy.. I did use it occasionally for thin strips but it was to much of a hassle to roll it out, set it up make the one or 2 quick cuts and take everything off and push it back. The track saw is so much easier.

Now that I got a CMS module I do use it for thin strips, but again it depends, if I have to break down the router table to Put in the TS the guide rail is so much faster and easier.

Offline Rusty Miller

  • Posts: 244
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #84 on: October 11, 2015, 10:23 AM »
Corwin,
Glad you continued with the animation.  Looking forward to seeing the finished product.  If you come up with some plans I'll buy a set.

Thanks for all your work on this.

Rusty
Rusty Miller
I'd rather be woodworking!

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #85 on: October 11, 2015, 12:12 PM »
Corwin,
Glad you continued with the animation.  Looking forward to seeing the finished product.  If you come up with some plans I'll buy a set.

Thanks for all your work on this.

Rusty

Thanks, Rusty. There will not be any plans for sale. But I am happy to provide any plans you like free of charge.

You see, the jigs I show in the video really were designed specifically to be simple to construct. These are meant to be 'entry level' jigs. You will NOT need a tape measure, square, marking tools, or anything other than your guide rail and saw, along with some sheet material (MDF) to make the first version I show. The 'hinged' version only adds the requirement of a router to route the rebate for the piano hinge, and optionally the dados for the fences, and, of course, a piano hinge and the associated hardware.

These jigs can be made to any length you want. Depending on your narrow-ripping needs, you may want to make yours 4' to 5' in length, for use with a FS1900/2 rail, or a full 8' for use with a long rail or joined rails. The width can be around 36" or less, depending on if you use the hinged wing and the width of that wing. You can figure what you need -- consider that the rail is around 7-1/4" in width, and you can see that we don't need too much more than that to the right of the shorter 'work' fence, as we are using this jig when cutting material that is already narrower than the width of the rail to start with, aren't we? And you can see what you will need to the left of the fence...

The fences do impose a limit of sorts. The shorter 'work' fence establishes a lower limit, as the height of this fence must NOT exceed the thickness of the material that you wish to cut. So, the distance that this fence stands proud of the base establishes a minimum thickness of material you can cut. However, you could always add some, say, 1/4" sheet material on either side to accommodate thinner material.

The taller 'back' fence need not be any taller than the maximum material thickness your saw can handle, plus the thickness of your rail. So, for the TS55, anything taller than around 2-3/4" is deadwood.  [huh]

I don't offer dimensions for a reason. If you try to construct these jigs by measuring, you may easily make a mistake. Instead, make them as illustrated in the animation. It really is 'almost' as easy as it looks. But, you have to give it a try to know first hand...  (It is much, much harder to create this animation than it is to create any of my jigs -- So, I've done my part, now you will have to do your part. heh, heh  [wink])




Oh, and I've updated the video, yet again. Just a little more progress, that's all.  [smile]

Latest Update of my Animation


So, Rusty, it is Sunday. I gather you have the day off work? Or were you doing something else today? Pick a day -- any day -- when you have some spare time [only a little time is needed] and try making the hinged version, if you like, and I will be happy to answer any questions you may have with the process. Just be warned; jig making may become addicting. Just saying'.  [big grin]
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 01:26 PM by Corwin »

Offline JimS_1984

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2015, 03:29 PM »
Corwin,
This is absolutely top-shelf.  A wonderful idea and artfully presented.

I sold my table saw ten years ago to make room for house-barf in our garage, and pretty much walked away from the hobby.  The TS55 and Domino 500 are bringing me back, but I've not been happy ripping narrow stock.  You've shown how to do it safely and, in contrast to some of the other solutions, without much fuss.

If you'd like to respond or PM your favorite charity, I'll make a modest donation in recognition of the huge effort you put into explaining the fabrication of this simple but clever jig.  Pay it forward. 
TS55, DF500, OF1010, Carvex, Vecturo, C15, CXS, RAS115, ETC EC 125, RO90, CT 26

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #87 on: October 11, 2015, 04:01 PM »
Corwin,
This is absolutely top-shelf.  A wonderful idea and artfully presented.

I sold my table saw ten years ago to make room for house-barf in our garage, and pretty much walked away from the hobby.  The TS55 and Domino 500 are bringing me back, but I've not been happy ripping narrow stock.  You've shown how to do it safely and, in contrast to some of the other solutions, without much fuss.

If you'd like to respond or PM your favorite charity, I'll make a modest donation in recognition of the huge effort you put into explaining the fabrication of this simple but clever jig.  Pay it forward.

Thank you so much for your kind words. They are payment enough. If you do take the time to try out my methods and learn more on how to use your guide rails, I will be pleased. And if learning these simple steps leads you to take it all to the next level, them my mission here will have been a success.  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

I have it in mind to do a somewhat complete overview of the guide rail and its use. This narrow rip jig would be, oh, maybe chapter 3 or 4, after having first established methods for square and parallel. Then some MFT stuff that just might cause some to kick their dog(s)...  [scared]
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 04:05 PM by Corwin »

Offline squawkin

  • Posts: 48
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #88 on: October 11, 2015, 05:19 PM »
What a great idea. I will try this method.

Offline Rusty Miller

  • Posts: 244
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2015, 07:44 PM »
Corwin,
Thanks for the reply and the new video.  It is definatly clearer now.  For the hinged model I assume you are setting the router bit depth to kiss the top of the ridge on the rail that the hinge will be fastened to.  What size router bit are you using? 3/4"
And yes I'm off today but I have a lot going at the moment (trying to clean out our garage and make some selving. Also I don't have any extra sheet goods at the moment to make the jig out of.
I know what you mean about making jigs, they make a lot of jobs so much easier and much more accurate.
Again thanks for all the work you put into this, I will definatly try to make one of these soon.

Rusty
Rusty Miller
I'd rather be woodworking!

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2644
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #90 on: October 11, 2015, 08:24 PM »
Corwin,
Thanks for the reply and the new video.  It is definatly clearer now.  For the hinged model I assume you are setting the router bit depth to kiss the top of the ridge on the rail that the hinge will be fastened to.  What size router bit are you using? 3/4"
And yes I'm off today but I have a lot going at the moment (trying to clean out our garage and make some selving. Also I don't have any extra sheet goods at the moment to make the jig out of.
I know what you mean about making jigs, they make a lot of jobs so much easier and much more accurate.
Again thanks for all the work you put into this, I will definatly try to make one of these soon.

Rusty

I figured it would become clearer. And yes, I am depicting setting the final depth of cut to match the top of the T-track portion of the guide rail -- that way the wing and rail sit flat once the hinge is installed. The bit size doesn't matter [yes, I used a 3/4" in multiple passes] as it is the depth of the rebate that matters. The width should be wider than the portion of the hinge that will be mounted there. I don't intend for the hinge to index off the inside edge of the rebate, so extra room is my preference. I use 1-1/2" piano hinge with my jigs - the piano hinge in the animation was downloaded from the SketchUp warehouse and was supposed to also be 1-1/2", but there's a longer story there... Mounting holes need to be drilled out as needed. The hinge doesn't align 'exactly' over the top of the T-track, but so what; there is an amount of slop with my hardware, and that works fine -- just pull rail tight to the wing before tightening down.

No pressure (or is that -- oh, never mind [tongue]) with making your own jig. I'm just kidding. Well, kind of...  [big grin]

Sorry to dominate this thread. But then again, it is threads like this that have prompted me to take the time on this project. Maybe in the future we can instead be discussing how to, rather than if we can cut narrow stock with our track saws.

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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2015, 08:43 PM »
Corwin,

I would love to do an un-edited video to show your original idea in real life - giving you credit or course?  I don't have the time to do your flip down jig.

Peter

Offline Corwin

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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2015, 09:35 PM »
Corwin,

I would love to do an un-edited video to show your original idea in real life - giving you credit or course?  I don't have the time to do your flip down jig.

Peter

I would love that too!  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

Once you've made the basic 'instructional' version, I think you may just find the time... Well, sometime, that is.  [wink]

With the first version, one need consider the height of the spacer (or piece you are attempting to duplicate) between the fence and rail. The saw's motor housing sticks out to the left of the rail and anything too tall, and too close (as it would be in this case,) may interfere -- the saw's depth of cut enters into this... The winged version eliminates this issue. This same consideration comes into play when cutting, for instance, sheet material using the method shown in the beginning of the animation. There, I could have used the first piece I cut -- the one that matches the width of your rail -- below the rail, to cut the narrow strips for the fences IF I had a spacer that was shorter and wouldn't be in the way. Same type situation solved the same way.

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2644
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #93 on: October 19, 2015, 05:51 AM »
Here's the final version of my animation:

Narrow Strip Jig

Hope you enjoy it. Kind of a BIG file. Takes over 4 minutes to load SketchUp...  [scared]   So, this is as far as I'll take this animation.

Offline Rusty Miller

  • Posts: 244
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #94 on: October 20, 2015, 01:28 PM »
Corwin,
Fantastic job! I will be making one of these.  Thank you for all the hard work you put into the video and just coming up with the jig itself.  You're a "Good man Charley Brown"!

Rusty
Rusty Miller
I'd rather be woodworking!

Offline Parquet-Dave

  • Posts: 24
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Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #95 on: October 23, 2015, 06:35 PM »
Corwin
Thanks for posting your jig idea.
I've made one using scrap ply this week on a job site.
I've used it for ripping parquet blocks and also managed to cut a ramp threshold strip from an off-cut of square stock.

All tasks I would have previously used a table saw for. 
Having bought the TS55 for cutting parquet borders initially, I've found myself finding different tasks that the saw can safely complete,  and I've got to say I'm very happy so far. 
Your Jig has opened up a whole raft of other tasks that I can use the saw for so thank you once again.

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2644
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #96 on: October 23, 2015, 09:49 PM »
Welcome to the FOG, Dave! And thank you for your comments.  [big grin]


Offline brodiebrodie

  • Posts: 1
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #97 on: November 06, 2016, 11:59 AM »
Hello,

This is a very interesting discussion, but I can't seem to see any of the the youtube videos (all private or removed)

Can any one re-post?

Cheers

Offline air19

  • Posts: 41
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #98 on: November 22, 2016, 08:51 PM »
The link on reply #93 works.  The previous ones do not.  But #93 is his latest and it's really good.  Makes me rethink about the space my table saw is taking up. 


Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2644
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #99 on: November 22, 2016, 09:08 PM »
The link on reply #93 works.  The previous ones do not.  But #93 is his latest and it's really good.  Makes me rethink about the space my table saw is taking up.

Thanks!

The previous links were for versions of the same animation, but at progressive levels of completion. So, you aren't missing anything in the older links.

You might also like to check out my [hugely unpopular] A Different Parallel Guide and MFT Zero-Clearance Fence & Fenced Sled threads.  [unsure]

Offline dabfog

  • Posts: 4
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #100 on: May 04, 2021, 11:43 AM »
Try this plunge into the end of the stock just far enough in to allow the full exposed blade to "plungein". The gently back up a 1/4", then complete your cut.
Also, how long are your pieces? Can you rig up a set of scrap pieces so there is a trench, with an outer "wall" to the right of the track and a "sacrificial fence" block at the end?
Say some scrap or extra stock brad nailed to a sheet of plywood with a piece wide enough to support the track, another to the right of that piece to just admit the work piece and the sacrificial stop block at the far end?

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 636
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #101 on: May 04, 2021, 04:47 PM »
I made this simple jig.  A thin kerf blade will save a lot of material if you are making many strips.  I use a feather board with mine.  The 6" width is fine.  I feel more comfortable with an 8" width pusher.  Long lengths are an issue.  I find 4' is the longest that is easily handled. 

Short lengths are an issue too.  They cannot kickback, but they can kick up. A sacrificial hold down will resolve that issue.  2½ to 3 feet is the sweet spot for this jig.  If you need shorter lengths, then rip them longer and then cut them to length.  So I would cut 3 foot pieces and then get three 11" ones from each cut piece.  More efficient and safer. 

« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 04:49 PM by Packard »

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2885
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #102 on: May 04, 2021, 05:20 PM »
The heading isn't clear, but by TS, the thread is about the Track Saw. (Some people use the Grr-ripper to make 1/8" strips with ease on the table saw.).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 05:22 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 636
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #103 on: May 04, 2021, 06:30 PM »
Yes, I thought TS was table saw. I bought the track saw as an adjunct to the table saw, but it has been seeing more service as I get used to it.  But the table saw and the radial arm saw do some things better than the track saw.

Do most people get rid of their table saws after buying a track saw?

Offline CeeJay

  • Posts: 375
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #104 on: May 04, 2021, 07:27 PM »
Do most people get rid of their table saws after buying a track saw?

Nope. Still use my table saw 90% of the time.


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Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2885
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #105 on: May 04, 2021, 08:02 PM »
Can't speak for those who handle mostly sheet goods, but haven't come across anyone here who does hardwood furniture work and ditches their table saw after getting the track saw.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 689
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #106 on: May 04, 2021, 08:23 PM »
I do both sheet goods work and hardwood too. I would never even think about getting rid of a tablesaw, but the tracksaw gets it's share of work too.  They each have their strengths.
Tracksaws are great for breaking down sheet goods, but I see them as finish cuts. I see way too many people, especially Youtubers, consider that a preliminary step to do the final cut on a tablesaw.
Tablesaw definitely for repetitive strips in sheet goods, dados, rabbets, etc.
I certainly wouldn't taper a table leg with a tracksaw, but they excel on cuts were the object to be cut is large/long/heavy.
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Offline Packard

  • Posts: 636
Re: Is ripping narrow stock the TS achilles heel?
« Reply #107 on: May 05, 2021, 08:19 AM »
I had long assumed that people morphed from being table saw users to being track saw users and I also assumed that most would hang onto their table saws. 

For those who only have a track saw, I apologize for this topic drift. 

If you do still have a table saw, then trying to rip narrow stock with a track saw seems akin to trying to teach a racehorse to run on his hind legs.  You might get him to make some progress, but it will be against his nature, and he surely will make slow progress.

I bought the track saw to work with sheet goods and there it excels, being sufficiently precise as well as being safer to handle the large panels.  It also makes cleaner cuts than my table saw on plywood and melamine clad particleboard. 

In all cases I try to remember to use the best tool for the task at hand whether it is a track saw, table saw or radial arm saw, sliding table miter saw, hand held circular saw or chop saw.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 08:22 AM by Packard »