Author Topic: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.  (Read 1174 times)

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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7367
I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« on: June 21, 2020, 01:31 AM »
Now here's a yearly maintenance regimen that I would be more than happy to do without. It's nice to have friends over and to serve cocktails and food on a beautiful surface as opposed to something dragged up from the bottom of the swamp.

So, every year the drill remains the same...refinish the teak table on the patio. I've done this so many times that I can't count the times. I've done this with a different Festool sander every year, first the original underpowered ETS 125, tried it with the RS 2, used the Rotex 125, used the early original DTS 125, the next year the ETS EC 125 using both a 125 pad and a 150 pad, even tried the LS 130 for both the sanding of the flat surfaces and sanding of the rounded edge profile. At every juncture, the sanding process was a huge time waster.

This year I decided that if I had two useful arms, I could employ two sanders at the same time...as bimbo boy says, what do you have to lose?

So this year I decided the ETSC and the DTSC would be my sanders of choice. I was mightly impressed as these brought the sanding time down to at least half of what I usually need.

I did notice that the ETSC was easier to manage because it is symmetrical and better balanced. If you let go of it it stays upright and just slowly shuttles across the table in a fairly tight orbital circle. The DTSC however, if left on its own will simply topple over and fall on its side.

So the sanding is helter skelter with both sanders traversing different paths but towards the end of the sanding session, most of the surface has been traversed and I then touched up specific areas with the ETSC.  Sweet...this is exactly the approach I will take next year but maybe I'll substitute a second ETSC instead of the DTSC.











« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 11:18 AM by Cheese »

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Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 989
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2020, 02:27 AM »
Cheese,

We have a similar table with four benches, and it is also well overdue for the same level of work you've done.   How much longer can I procrastinate....  [crying]

Your results look great!

Offline Euclid

  • Posts: 227
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2020, 04:27 AM »
Rob - with four benches are you proposing to strap sanders to your feet as well and indulge in some break-dancing?!

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 1089
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2020, 06:35 AM »
Lovely job there Mr Cheese 👍🏻

You have also made my mind up, I have been thinking about buying the three hybrid sanders for a while, mainly for my own personal use. I will probably buy one with the full kit, BT batteries, charger and plug it lead and adaptor etc, and buy the other two bare tool.

Lovely table tool, you can’t beat teak for outside furniture  [thumbs up]

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 140
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2020, 06:40 AM »
Just like you, doing this stuff every year again is not my favourite chore around the house. Since a couple of years I switched over from plain oil to using  Osmo UV protection oil (see this webpage). The look is not exactly the same as oil, but the durability is fantastic. I know Osmo recommends it for vertical surfaces and have another product for horizontal surfaces, but I went ahead and used it anyway. Mostly because the other product is too shiny for my taste. The result is great and I have to redo the garden table (which is exposed to the elements) only once every three years now. Maybe something for you to try?

Offline Thompmd

  • Posts: 109
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2020, 08:20 AM »
Just a thought, take 2 sanders(say ro150’s) and tandem them with a piece of all thread and use them simultaneously? Thinkin outside the box?
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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7367
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2020, 09:31 AM »
Initially I started with just the ETSC, then I went inside the house to check on some food and I noticed the DTSC and thought what the hey.  It seemed goofy at first but once I started it felt ok. More importantly, the results were achieved at a much faster rate. That entire half of the table was sanded in only about 15-20 minutes using 150/180 grit Granat while waiting for the charcoal to get hot. You can see that in the 5th photo versus the 6th photo the garden lights have turned on, so everything happened fairly quickly.

I'll finish the other half of the table today.

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3960
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2020, 09:50 AM »
@Cheese, you're smarter than this!  Get out your Planex and have at it from your favorite lawn chair while sipping on a mint julep!   [big grin]
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4032
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2020, 10:58 AM »
I love the decadence -- double fisted cordless sanding.
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Offline Euclid

  • Posts: 227
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2020, 12:08 PM »
Perhaps we could integrate a sander with robot lawn mower or vacuum cleaner technology...?

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 1171
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2020, 12:51 PM »
 [thumbs up]

Offline Rick Herrick

  • Posts: 202
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2020, 11:18 PM »
Hey @Cheese , very nice finish.  What do yo do about between the slats?  I have two garden benches that are long over due.  Do you oil just the top and pray or is there a trick to getting it between each slat ? 

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7367
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2020, 10:58 AM »
Hey @Cheese , very nice finish.  What do yo do about between the slats?  I have two garden benches that are long over due.  Do you oil just the top and pray or is there a trick to getting it between each slat ?

@Rick Herrick  the space between the slats is very narrow, usually just enough room to take a putty knife to and clean out any leaves, bugs or other debris that has fallen in. Also when the table is in use, an umbrella is used on it 100% of the time so the space between the slats is always dark, nothing to see.

@ear3 ...+1 on your comment.  [not worthy]

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7367
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2020, 11:32 AM »
Since a couple of years I switched over from plain oil to using  Osmo UV protection oil (see this webpage). The look is not exactly the same as oil, but the durability is fantastic. I know Osmo recommends it for vertical surfaces and have another product for horizontal surfaces, but I went ahead and used it anyway. Mostly because the other product is too shiny for my taste. The result is great and I have to redo the garden table (which is exposed to the elements) only once every three years now. Maybe something for you to try?

@hdv  I've been investigating your Osmo approach and I have a few questions. Just like you mention, Osmo recommends their product for vertical surfaces.
So, you don't have any mold issues with horizontal surfaces?
How long has it been in use?
Does the Osmo you use contain biocides?
I was also under the assumption that to attain any amount of UV protection, any finish needed to contain some amount of pigment. The Osmo clear finish claims a UV protection value of 12x...I wonder how that works?

I've had some experience with Sikkens products that were specified for vertical use. When applied to a horizontal surface they became black, moldy and slimy, it was horrible.  Everything had to be stripped. [sad]

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 140
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2020, 02:12 PM »
No issues at all! Here's a photo of the table.



Sorry for the bad colour quality of the shot, but it should look like wet teak. Please remember that this is a "waxy" oil, so it will leave a smooth surface with a satin gloss. The original wood texture will not be kept after treating the wood with this product. I don't mind. As a matter of fact I like it, because it makes cleaning the table top much easier.

I haven't done anything to it for the last one and a half years. The table is outside from April 'til October and constantly exposed to the Dutch climate during that period. The teak had already degraded before I started using this product to protect it (this table is about 20 years old now), so don't pay too much attention to the wood itself. The spots you see are from before I started using the Osmo. But as you can see the oil has not cracked at all. To me that is impressive. It is the first product I used that managed to stand up to the sun and rain for so long.

As far as needing pigment to protect against UV, that might be true. I am no expert in that field. However, I use a special panel varnish from Finland for the wooden walls inside my house (made of shaved/planed logs). I like to keep them from yellowing as much as possible and this product was recommended for that. It contains no pigment, but it does contain titanium. Sadly, it is no longer available around here due to regulations. That stuff was great!

Here's what I use on the table:



See https://osmouk.com/sitechaptern.cfm?bookid=Products&chapter=82&page=262#UVProtectionOil for detailed English information.

At first I did use the stuff for horizontal surfaces, but that shines like a mirror, which I didn't like at all.



See https://osmouk.com/sitechaptern.cfm?bookid=Products&chapter=82&page=267 for detailed English information.

Their product for UV protection does contain biocides. Like most (all?) Osmo products once it is dry it is safe for humans.

If you need more information, just holler.



Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1295
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2020, 02:16 PM »
Great result @Cheese - love the idea of double wielding sanders!  [big grin]

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2397
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2020, 03:04 PM »
When I was coaching soccer/football I insisted that my players be able to play two footed so they did not need too do the three step to get the ball on their dominant foot...no reason woodbutchers should not be the same...often made them dribble with two balls

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7367
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2020, 10:57 AM »

I haven't done anything to it for the last one and a half years. The table is outside from April 'til October and constantly exposed to the Dutch climate during that period. The teak had already degraded before I started using this product to protect it (this table is about 20 years old now), so don't pay too much attention to the wood itself. The spots you see are from before I started using the Osmo. But as you can see the oil has not cracked at all. To me that is impressive. It is the first product I used that managed to stand up to the sun and rain for so long.

As far as needing pigment to protect against UV, that might be true. I am no expert in that field. However, I use a special panel varnish from Finland for the wooden walls inside my house (made of shaved/planed logs). I like to keep them from yellowing as much as possible and this product was recommended for that. It contains no pigment, but it does contain titanium. Sadly, it is no longer available around here due to regulations. That stuff was great!

If you need more information, just holler.

@hdv  Thanks for the info and the links, I need to do some further reading.  I did notice that the spec sheet for the 007 Osmo Decking Oil states "Clear: No UV resistance, the wood greys naturally."  So that probably wouldn't have been a good choice for either one of us.  [big grin]

Also the product information sheet for the 007 Osmo states "Osmo Teak-Oil is a clear finish and therefore offers
little protection against UV radiation (greying). As a clear top coat for screens, we recommend Osmo UV-Protection-Oil/UV-Protection-Oil Extra."
So there's some formulation differences between the Clear Osmo Teak Oil and the Clear Osmo UV-Protection products.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7367
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2020, 12:03 PM »
Ok, so this is where we left off. 1/2 of the table had been sanded and Surfix Outdoor had been applied.




Yesterday I decided to finish the table but to include a couple of additional observations. Both batteries were fully charged over night for the sanders, fresh 180 grit sandpaper was installed and a stop watch  [eek]  was added to the mix.




After 5 min & 9 sec of two-handed sanding the table surface looked like this.




After 13 min & 53 sec of two-handed sanding the table looked like this.




At this point the two-handed sanding approach was abandoned and only one sander was used at a time to finish up the remaining small touch-up areas. A total sanding time of 19 min & 10 sec.  [big grin]  That's a pretty good time saver compared to the single sander approach.




There's also been a fairly deep dent (1/32") in the table surface for the last couple of years. It was when the OF 1400 slipped out of my hands and bounced on the table.  [mad] 




A little fresh water, a wet cotton towel and a steam iron pulled out the dent, while some light sanding made the surface much better. The dent is still visible because the wood fibers were sheared however, it can barely be felt. Your fingernail will barely catch the edge so it's in the .004"-.005" range.




A thorough cleaning with a soft bristled brush and some Surfix Outdoors completes the task.




An interesting note is that after the 19 min & 10 sec sanding time, I checked both batteries and both were only down 1 LED. It could be hypothesized that there is 1 hour of run time with these sanders depending upon the situation.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 12:07 PM by Cheese »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4769
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2020, 01:57 PM »
Table looks great now!

About the test, are you saying the two sanders (ET&DT) are about equal in sanding efficiency?

Assuming you have corded versions of one of them how does the cordless compare?

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 486
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2020, 03:59 PM »
Cheese, I envy you your cordless sanders. The ETSC is on my wish list.

But, I’ve done the same drill many, many times before..
now my former wife has these furniture, I’m glad - Also now seeing that they are close to end of life. Yours look much better quality though. I’m left with a teak deck chair - and “we” are going rustic  [big grin].
Although:
I’ve done a table with same products and technique as boaters do with teak exposed to salt water. After sanding the teak oil are applied wet on wet in many, many layers, till the wood almost doesn’t accept more. Then another product of much thicker viscosity is applied for several more layers, but now it slowly forms a layer like lacquer. This does not harden and crack like lacquer, but is slight elastic. The end result can last up to two-three years or more, and longer if refurbished with a clean and thin layer on top once a year.
EDIT: Found a UK marine seller that carry this oil;

https://www.smlmarinepaints.co.uk/varnishes/benar


For now, my deck chair receives a pressure wash, and turns grey again after a short while. That’s it - I just sit in it [embarassed]
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 04:22 PM by FestitaMakool »
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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7367
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2020, 04:02 PM »
About the test, are you saying the two sanders (ET&DT) are about equal in sanding efficiency?

Assuming you have corded versions of one of them how does the cordless compare?

Yes I think so, difficult to quantitatively measure because they're both so different. The ETSC being a random orbital while the DTSC is strictly an orbital. But I do think they have the same approximate efficiency rating.  [scratch chin]

It's interesting that when using both of these different sanders at the same time, you really need to kind of separate your brain and focus on and think about the DTSC and what it is doing. If you let go of the DTSC for a second, it just falls over and the edge of the pad digs into the wood. If you do the same thing with the ETSC, it remains upright and just hovers around the table in a small circle.

I think if you used 2 ETSC sanders at the same time, it'd be a piece of cake, not much to think about.  [big grin]

The corded DTS I have is the original 200 watt model however I also have the Pro 5 which is nothing more than a 250 watt ETS. You propose an interesting challenge/test/comparison before I put both of the corded models down the road.  [smile]

Also a very important observation...this is the 6th time I've sanded this table. Every previous experience was with using a dust extractor and a corded Festool sander.  [sad]   This was such a nice change not to wrestle with the hose and to stop and reposition the hose as it catches on the corners of the table or as the cord gets wrapped around a chair leg, that in itself cut time from the sanding process. This really is one of those tasks I avoid every year so there are some years when the table just doesn't get refinished. Cordless & hoseless has many advantages.

Offline Scott in Bend

  • Posts: 260
Re: I have two hands...thus...I need two sanders.
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2020, 05:39 PM »
Hey Cheese, 

Nice job on table.  It still looks really good for its age.

I'm trying to figure out what mix of cordless sanders to get so how about a few opinions, please.  How many batteries do you have for your two cordless sanders?  What would you consider the optimum number of batteries to keep up with the demand of how you normally would work with two sanders?  Not the two-fisted, one quarter of an octopus, watch this, method that your table received.

How are the dust bags holding up?  I am wondering if my definition of long-life is the same as Festool.

Do you have the mains adapter or does that kind defeat the purpose?

« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 05:49 PM by Scott in Bend »