Author Topic: HK85 for cuts up to 60 degrees - what are the alternate solutions for cabinetry?  (Read 1514 times)

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Offline kifi

  • Posts: 28
Hi All

I have a project that I need to make a lot of bevel cuts beyond 45 degrees. It appears the HK85 goes up to 60 degrees. Anyone invest in one for this purpose? Seems like a little too much for someone who works with cabinets and not on-site carpentry. I know there are alternatives involving the use of jigs and clamping etc., but looking to understand if there is a more convenient solution or if the HK85 has a place in the cabinet makers tool collection?

Thanks

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Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 820
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Hi Kifi,

Depending on the kind of work you're doing, you could pop a 45 degree cutter in a shaper, then tilt the spindle to the appropriate angle, should get you well past 60 degrees and give better results than a saw in solid wood....

If your shaper doesn't have a tilting spindle, you could get a variable angle cutter like this one from Rangate: https://rangate.com/products/vari-angle-cutter
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 12:18 PM by Tom Gensmer »
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline kifi

  • Posts: 28
thanks Tom, unfortunately I have no shaper

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 820
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
thanks Tom, unfortunately I have no shaper

Are you making crosscuts or rips? If rips/longitudinal, can you make a sled and run through your planer? Otherwise, shouldn't be too much trouble to whip up tipped/beveled router sled?
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline kifi

  • Posts: 28
It's a crosscut of about 18 inches, need to be able to vary the angle too.

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 820
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Not sure what tools you have access to, but you could try:

-- Use an oscillating edge sander with a miter gauge to maintain square, and tilt the head to the appropriate angle
-- Whip up a tilting jig to use on a band saw
-- Use a right angle jig on your table saw, and bevel the saw blade to adjust angle (holding the piece upright)

Hope this helps, best luck on your project
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline kifi

  • Posts: 28
thanks tom, that absolutely helps, I have an edge sander that will tilt from 90 down to 0 / co-planar - although I would fear that it may not prove to be 100% accurate, that is why I thought the HK85 would be a better tool for the job

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 820
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Hi Kifi,

Happy to help, I know I frequently reach out to peers for another opinion. Regarding the edge sander, to my way of thinking it might be the preferred solution, since it would allow you to sneak up on an angle or measurement. You could make an initial cut on a saw at 45 degrees to remove the bulk of the material, then use the sander to sneak up to the line/angle, adjusting as needed. Just a thought.....
CT-MIDI, C-18, RO-150, RO-90, OF-1010, OF-1400, MFK-700, MFK-700EQ/B, EHL-65, DTS-400, LS-130, MFT/3 (x4), MFT/Kapex (x3), KA 65 Conturo, endless Systainers

Offline kifi

  • Posts: 28
Thanks Tom, you certainly have your head screwed on as we say over this side of the pond!

Offline Zubo

  • Posts: 27
Why you don't flip over piece of wood and make a 30 degree cut on the other side with a table saw? 90-30=60 degree.

Or if you have track saw you make a tilt base under the track to support it. If your track saw reach 45deg you must tilt the support base only 15 Deg..

The problem is if the blade is long enough to cut through the wood. In this case I suggest jig whit router..

Maybe with hk85 you can make some live- edge table in future..
If you buy new saw is only to gain time for finishing your project. Consider time spent to built jig o refine a 60 cut with grinder ecc..
Maybe worth the money...
Practice makes perfect. Don't be afraid to fail, be afraid not to try.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1805
Why you don't flip over piece of wood and make a 30 degree cut on the other side with a table saw? 90-30=60 degree.


That's not flipping it over but flipping it on it's side.

Offline Zubo

  • Posts: 27
Yess you right. It was in my brain but cannot explain correctly
Practice makes perfect. Don't be afraid to fail, be afraid not to try.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1129
If you do not already have a TS75, the HK85 is a great buy being the true many-tricks-pony.

It is not your "usual" carpentry saw. Best look it around at a dealer if not sure. The mechanism is pretty stiff so it allows good quality cuts when used with rail and a good blade. Just put a high-teeth-count quality blade and you are a go for perfect cuts.

There are other 60 degree saws, but none I know has the "TS-level" cut quality, precision nor rail compatibility. Except the Mafell, of course.

The groove units for it are quite useful even in shop for big furniture joints.

Had I not come across the Protool CSP 145E monster for a great price ... the HK85 was to be it for everything my TSC cannot handle.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline kifi

  • Posts: 28
Why you don't flip over piece of wood and make a 30 degree cut on the other side with a table saw? 90-30=60 degree.


That's not flipping it over but flipping it on it's side.

That's exactly what I thought I could do, in my head, for years, prior to ever actually having to do it until now.
Now I see why I need to flip it 90 degrees, not 180 !!

Angles really fry my head..

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 447
@kifi Absolutely no disrespect intended for the following;

This is the latest in a procession of your posts relating to wishlist equipment for your wardobe-building business aspirations. I think the 85 is about the 20th piece of equipment you've requested advice on. There's nothing wrong with that of course - but the good people on here are investing their time and effort in trying to help you out - including myself, who's responded with long and informative posts which have taken substantial time and effort to write - including topics such as advice on the potential pitfalls of hanging a CTL36 from your garage ceiling. To this day, however - no-one has the faintest clue if you've actually bought anything on your wishlist, what you have or don't have, what your circumstances are, what your budget is, where you're at with your project, if you've built, sold or delivered anything yet, etc. etc. etc. It's impossible to advise someone about pretty much any piece of equipment unless they know what other pieces of equipment are lying next to it. Anyone can visit your post history and see what I mean.

A bit of solid advice. The help you'll receive on here will be a lot more valuable to you if it's based on what we know - rather than what we don't.

I wish you a good and happy day.
Kevin
 
   
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 05:56 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline kifi

  • Posts: 28
Not all Kevin, I am certainly reading your reply and am entertained.  [big grin]I wouldn’t read too much into it my British friend. I’m only asking for information on Festool tools, it’s what this forum is about - doesn’t matter how many wardrobes I’ve sold!

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1129
...
A bit of solid advice. The help you'll receive on here will be a lot more valuable to you if it's based on what we know - rather than what we don't.

Not all Kevin, I am certainly reading your reply and am entertained.  [big grin]I wouldn’t read too much into it my British friend. I’m only asking for information on Festool tools, it’s what this forum is about - doesn’t matter how many wardrobes I’ve sold!
woodbutcherbower made a point - highlighted - which you seem to have missed.

I will try to expand on it, for posterity:
-----------------------

WHAT
When you do not provide almost any context, the question can be taken as trolling, sure. But that was not woodbutcherbower's point.

The main issue is that, not providing context, most advice you get /anywhere/ will be inapplicable /to your case/. That is bad. For you.

What is even worse, again, for you, is that it is so without such being seeable /by you/.

It may be useful for others searching for it, so not a waste to respond on a public forum, but the same can be even detrimental /for you/.

Case in point:
My post was forced to specifically note that "the HK85 is the tool to get DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU HAVE/NOT HAVE" already. And even at that I intentionally skipped the cost aspect, the rails aspect, the plunge aspect, the routing it option etc., etc. There would be just too many "IFs" for my post to not become a novel.


WHY
Woodworking, especially fine woodworking like cabinetry, is no straithtforward field. Probably because wood is not straight. Pun intended. So, there are no straight(forward) answers. It may seem so there are to the beginners, but it is not so. Period.

To expand: Most of the time, there are 10+ ways on how to do something, each with its own limitations.
It is these limitations of the various ways which come to the fore when querying -useful- advice.


WHAT THIS ALL MEANS
An honest answer to a non-specific question, like yours are, can take two forms:

 - a looong, 100+ pages, novel covering all the possible scenarios /from which only one applies to you and which you will NOT bother read/or underdstand in whole/
 - specific advice which is likely to NOT fit your situation *)

Notice that, in both cases, it is YOU who lost. Sure, the poster "wastes" some time too. But, in the end, it is you who ends up with an inapplicable/wrong advice.

*) without you, a junior /on experience/, being able to see the advice is not really applicable/optimal for your scenario


ADD
I consider myself the junior in this field too. Without a doubt. Having a strong physics, chemistry and mechanical engineering backgrounds helps me a lot. Having 20 yrs experience in complex IT systems engineering helps too. No question. But. Still. Junior I am in this field. No doubt there.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 06:24 AM by mino »
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 153
Others may not agree but I would tend to see the HK85 as more of a builders/carpenters saw, not for fine cabinetmaking. To my mind it's a bit bulky for any fiddly type of work. Having said that, you can get cutterheads for it that allow you to create your own panelling for installing as the back of cupboards, which I think is insanely useful for a cabinet maker:

https://www.whitehill-tools.com/cutter-heads/cutterheads-festool/cutters-for-festool-hk85-saw/

They are a bit pricey as with all things nice, but if you have a need, it's a very handy solution.

Offline petar73

  • Posts: 30
I don’t know what exactly the project is, but I have hk85 and don’t find it accurate enough for 45 degree bevel cuts along the grain in season solid oak. I have tried it with brand new blades (18t,24t and 48t) and the blades deflect. It is good enough for carpentry, but not for joinery in my opinion.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1129
TS 55  is 4.3 kg
TSC 55  is 5.0 kg /with bats/
TS 75  is 5.7 kg  (+ 32% on TS 55)
HK 85  is 7.9 kg  (+ 38% on TS 75, twice the TS55)


So yes, it is heavier than a TS75 ... but, in my book, the TS75 is already heavy-enough to not allow daily one-hand operation.

Once placed on a rail though, the weight does not really matter. The precision and blade fixation is what matters. And there the HK 85 is as fine a tool as a TS 55 is. If anything, it is even better as the bigger heft gives it more stability and the stronger and heavier motor makes it not bog down even on thick hardwood with knots.


Do check it out if there is a roadshow around. I could not believe how smooth and gentle the HK85 is.

The best description is to compare it to the OF2200 of the router world.

Sure, not everyone can justify the cost or has the need for one. But being "raw" is simply not one of the tool's characteristics. This is not a "rought carpentry saw" by design, regardless what is its target market officially.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1129
I don’t know what exactly the project is, but I have hk85 and don’t find it accurate enough for 45 degree bevel cuts along the grain in season solid oak. I have tried it with brand new blades (18t,24t and 48t) and the blades deflect. It is good enough for carpentry, but not for joinery in my opinion.
What types of blades did you use ?

The Festool-sold blades are indeed carpentry blades and do deflect. But that is a saw blade issue, not a saw limitation. The HK 85 can handle pretty much any blade ... not just the Festool ones. If it can handle the groove units ...

For fine work with the HK 85, I would check stuff like below or equivalent from other makers. Just stay away from thin carpentry blades.
https://www.leitz.org/de/produktfinder/produkt-details/980773
https://www.leitz.org/de/produktfinder/produkt-details/982354


I just got a Protool CSP 145E which, from factory, used 380 mm 24T 3.2/1.8 mm blades optimized for carpentry. These were sure very fast to cut but /I would expect them to/ deflect a lot.

The previous owner put a 108T 3.5/2.6 mm Leitz formatting saw blade that is way stiffer and does not deflect at all. The resulting cut the saw makes is better than my TSC with a new blade. And that at 130mm depth ...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 08:02 AM by mino »
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline petar73

  • Posts: 30
HK85 is a very good saw and I don’t regret buying it, but the blades deflect more ripping a 45 degree angle on 20mm oak than ts55 with 2.2mm blade.
I have used festool blades only with hk85 so far (18t ripping blade, 24t and 48t), but I have been thinking about getting stiffer blades so thank you for the links.

Offline kifi

  • Posts: 28
Perhaps I should stay away from the HK85 then.

Some responses here seem odd, and are even condescending in my opinion. But maybe that is just me. Seems like people are always trying too hard to prove themselves.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6619
  • No longer in Cedar Tucky Indiana
I had to create a ridge "cover" for a 6/12 pitch roof. The rips needed to be ~54º from the horizontial plane.

This was easily accomplished with the TS-55 some clamps and a couple of MFT's.

The material needs to be held vertically, this can be done with just about any vertical surface. I was in the field so MFT's it was. I wanted to preserve the width of the board so the rail is set back from the edge the blade thickness.



The TS-55 set on the rail, bevel set to desired angle.



The sacrificial piece between the MFT and keep piece shows a slight kerf. The ripped piece drops into the space due to gap left by the blade.





Waste piece.



Rips completed.





"Cover" installed.



Words of caution;

Check the blade depth, you can pad out the piece to be cut if you want to cut all the way through (as shown above) or set the blade to "leave a little".

Make sure the vertical pieces are on plane with the bench top. I clamped the rail hanging over the edge and butted the pieces to the anti-splinter strip. Reset the rail to the proper cut postion once you're done clamping the vertical pieces in place.

This set up does end grain and compound cuts equally as easily.

If I have thicker material top cut, I use the TS-75.

Tom









« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 09:31 AM by tjbnwi »

Offline kifi

  • Posts: 28
Thanks Tom, that's the solution I will go with. Appreciate the response.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6619
  • No longer in Cedar Tucky Indiana
Thanks Tom, that's the solution I will go with. Appreciate the response.

Do a couple pratice setups and cuts, make sure you're within your comfort level.

You're welcome.

Tom