Author Topic: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?  (Read 3091 times)

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Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3983
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2020, 10:39 AM »
This is one of those threads where the answer to question depends on location - at this point in time.  I inquired this morning and in North America - where the OP appears to live - the CMS-GE is still a current item.  The CMS Basic is discontinued.  I think that reading the writing on the wall might be prudent.  If you are on the fence about a CMS table you might want to get off that fence sooner versus later.

It is a premium product that is designed for mobility and easy mounting / dismounting of a router.  The full kit with the sliding table does offer benefits that are not normally seen in other router tables.  But each user is different and obviously there are cost versus rewards decisions that will personally come into play.

I don't use mine much, but I sure am glad that I purchased mine and it is there when I need it.

Peter

I concur with Peter.  It's not an every-day tool, but it is the right tool when I need a reliable, predictable router table (right now).  To say that it's a perfect tool would be inaccurate.  There are several aspects that I'd prefer to have done differently, like the fence and the power switch.  That said, until such time comes that I need to assemble a router table that truly reflects my needs and workflow, the CMS is just fine for me.
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Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4828
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2020, 11:47 AM »
With this kit you don’t “suck dust through the router”.

But it’s probably not handy if you take the router out of the table often.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 849
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2020, 03:49 PM »
If money is an object, put words like Jessem and Woodpeckers on a wall and throw a dart at it. I’ve been there and done that and since I’m down to only an of1010 and an of1400, if I bought a router table again, it would be the CMS.  Same functionality, added portability and really not much less sturdy.  The $1700 seems like a lot, but you get extensions and a sliding table in that kit and the routers go in and out without much fuss.  The Taiwanese factories hooked up with a supplier of cast iron tables so now that’s an option on the pick an OEM router table by the tail “options” list.  But last I checked, aluminum isn’t particle board with a plastic veneer on it, either.  You can make dust collection work on these other router tables, but it’s kind of a nightmare.  They’ve gotten better now that you can get an off the shelf dust box included with the kit, but you’re still sucking dust through your router...

I wouldn't agree to the idea if money doesn't matter.  Those products have zero interest to a lot of folks.  Its still "build a kludge", doesn't matter how quality it might be.    That was the beauty of the CMS setup.  In the US though, a system of issues came up, from lack of OF2200 offical support, to removal of metric routers.    I'd like to have a metric, 230V OF2200 and the matching CMS insert stuff.  That isn't happening, I might be able to get the German version of the router someday, but you can't get the insert.   Buying the US version, then trying to get the missing OF2200 parts, and then trying to get parts to make it 230V is not really a great solution.

I agree with Peter, even if you don't use it all the time, the CMS setup files a nice spot.  And far as price, I did the math before, and while it looks expensive, it's really not when you add up the "build a kludge" solutions.

The ability to have a nice router table, that folds up nicely, with good dust collection, etc is where there is nothing out there.  I really think if they just build something around the CS/TKS chassis and called it a day, things would be good.   

I was/would like to have something similar to the CMS plate setup so I can mount it in my table saw setup, hook it into that CT. But a stand alone unit is good to, especialy if it packs up pretty well when not in use.

Some research makes it look like router solutions for plunge routers are more common in the EU,  I hope something comes out.

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 457
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2020, 04:26 PM »
@DeformedTree - my understanding is that there is nothing "missing" from the CMS OF/GE sold in N.A. and that, in contrast, the various components included (like throat rings, etc.) are identical the world over. IOW aside from the usual disclaimer/warning issued by forum moderators anytime anyone residing in N.A. suggests it, there's nothing stopping us west of the Atlantic from fitting an OF2200 to a CMS GE/OF. The issue (which has been discussed extensively elsewhere on the forum) is that the table mounted switch might struggle with the amp draw produced by the OF2200 given that it's apparently not UL rated appropriately.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 04:30 PM by TinyShop »
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [nos], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h], Walko 4 MKII (NL) [nos], Festool MFS 400 w/add-on 700 profiles & router slide (DE) [n]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [nos] new old stock   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 849
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2020, 05:22 PM »
@DeformedTree - my understanding is that there is nothing "missing" from the CMS OF/GE sold in N.A. and that, in contrast, the various components included (like throat rings, etc.) are identical the world over. IOW aside from the usual disclaimer/warning issued by forum moderators anytime anyone residing in N.A. suggests it, there's nothing stopping us west of the Atlantic from fitting an OF2200 to a CMS GE/OF. The issue (which has been discussed extensively elsewhere on the forum) is that the table mounted switch might struggle with the amp draw produced by the OF2200 given that it's apparently not UL rated appropriately.

My reading has been that at some point in time, they stopped including some of those parts (throat rings), you have to get it elsewhere.  Still, if I want a 230V unit, it still doesn't help.    Yes, they didn't warranty the OF2200 110V because of belief of current draw.

Like many things festool, they messed things up by making for a series of complexities/complications.   Not selling full CMS stuff in N.America (only ever offered router), not fully supporting OF2200 in 110V form in CMS, then making changes to routers (removing metric routers), thus making buying a router a problem, and of course not selling 230V tools in N.America.  Now with CMS clearly on the way out, investing in that setup is not really what folks like me want to do, as we have moved on to other solutions for tools (I was looking at getting a CMS with other modules at one time).  If they had never taken the metric tools away, I probably would be in a situation like peter and others and had bought the stuff all ready.  But with that issue, tool buying changed. In the past 110V wouldn't have been an issue, but as the other aspects causes issues, the solutions now create a 110V issue. I would largely pass on most festool stuff at this point, but when it comes to routers, there isn't much in options.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2154
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2020, 05:42 PM »
My reading has been that at some point in time, they stopped including some of those parts (throat rings), you have to get it elsewhere.  Still, if I want a 230V unit, it still doesn't help.    Yes, they didn't warranty the OF2200 110V because of belief of current draw.
Now with CMS clearly on the way out, investing in that setup is not really what folks like me want to do, as we have moved on to other solutions for tools (I was looking at getting a CMS with other modules at one time).  If they had never taken the metric tools away, I probably would be in a situation like peter and others and had bought the stuff all ready.  But with that issue, tool buying changed. In the past 110V wouldn't have been an issue, but as the other aspects causes issues, the solutions now create a 110V issue. I would largely pass on most festool stuff at this point, but when it comes to routers, there isn't much in options.
If you like CMS why not get it while you can. It'll give you decades of service. You can buy parts long after it's gone, especially from company like FT. Besides, it's a table, what can go wrong with that.
My approach is to stop chasing perfect setup. There won't be one. Want metric? It's just a sticker. Attach new one and move on. Get what's available and proceed to what's important - making dust.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 534
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2020, 05:56 PM »
I would say that the throat rings for OF 2200 is included:

A new contactor (magnetic switch) for 220-240V is also the only item needed for the NVR switch provided with the either VL or GE table as the housing and outer switch facias are the same.
Cables for 110-120V is noticeably thicker so you wouldn’t need to exchange them for 220-240V use.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7527
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2020, 06:34 PM »
As others have noted, the ring for the OF 2200 is already supplied with the kit. The only thing needed is the OF 2200.

About 6-9 months ago I chased down the parts list for the switch and I noted the ONLY part that was different between the 120 volt version & the 240 volt version was the power cord.  Rick Christopherson then chimed in and said that was because they were running the contacts in parallel so there are no internal parts that are different between the two voltages.

So purchase the CMS-GE...purchase a OF 2200...and let her buck.  [big grin]
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 06:42 PM by Cheese »

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 534
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2020, 07:00 PM »
You might be right Cheese, here are a comparison between those two switches.
(One that I bought from a fellow Festool user locally and exchanged the cables and switch)

Edit: Forgot a photo with both the 110V cables and switch:


« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 07:04 PM by FestitaMakool »
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Stan Tillinghast

  • Posts: 81
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2020, 09:27 PM »
OK, now you guys have me wondering again.
I always liked the sliding table on the FT router table; and I already have an OF 1400.
The full kit price of the Festool rig is not much different from the Jessem or Woodpeckers setups with a nice micro-adjust fence; and I have an old Bosch 1617 (I think) I would use for a motor.

I for one would appreciate more details on your experience with a Jessem or Woodpeckers router table, particularly in comparison with the Festool. Mobility is not an issue with me, but shop space is of course.

Offline jcrowe1950

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  • Posts: 72
    • Woodcraft Chattanooga, TN
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2020, 09:40 PM »
This is one of those threads where the answer to question depends on location - at this point in time.  I inquired this morning and in North America - where the OP appears to live - the CMS-GE is still a current item.  The CMS Basic is discontinued.  I think that reading the writing on the wall might be prudent.  If you are on the fence about a CMS table you might want to get off that fence sooner versus later.

It is a premium product that is designed for mobility and easy mounting / dismounting of a router.  The full kit with the sliding table does offer benefits that are not normally seen in other router tables.  But each user is different and obviously there are cost versus rewards decisions that will personally come into play.

I don't use mine much, but I sure am glad that I purchased mine and it is there when I need it.

Peter

   To echo what Peter said, this kit is very nice. The one at work is a VL which means it attaches to the V-groove in the MFT extrusion. Additionally, you can use the CMS-VL extrusion to mount an extension table on either side (from the MW 1000). The one at work was there when I started a bit over a year ago....I started using it after a router class with Greg Paolini. There are nice features of the setup that the competition still does not provide. That said, there is not, to my knowledge, a ring that will allow use of a Porter Cable style template bushing in the CMS-VL, which bit one of our customers. I suspect somebody with a 3D printer could solve that issue. I think Brian Sedgely (sp?) has some videos on this subject and we used the CMS-VL a good bit in the Festool architectural door class.
Festool Specialist at Woodcraft, Chattanooga, TN

Offline yetihunter

  • Posts: 749
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2020, 12:22 AM »
With this kit you don’t “suck dust through the router”.

But it’s probably not handy if you take the router out of the table often.

YMMV, but I went through two of those types of kits and remember having issues.  They both got traded out for a box.  I ended up with an incra box at some point too, it worked.

My frankenstein woodpecker/incra/general/jessem/routerraizer/elu router tables worked just fine, but I’m going to always recommend at least an all-in one table instead of cobbling it together like I had done in the past.  I did save a lot of money (never spent more than $400 a table...with router table parts, nothing milled or sized by muah).  They have them set up now where you can get everything included that had to be bought separately mere years ago. 

OK, now you guys have me wondering again.
I always liked the sliding table on the FT router table; and I already have an OF 1400.
The full kit price of the Festool rig is not much different from the Jessem or Woodpeckers setups with a nice micro-adjust fence; and I have an old Bosch 1617 (I think) I would use for a motor.

I for one would appreciate more details on your experience with a Jessem or Woodpeckers router table, particularly in comparison with the Festool. Mobility is not an issue with me, but shop space is of course.

The Festool takes up more space than the Jessem/Woodpeckers/Jet/Sawstop/Kreg/etc tables when fitted with all of the extra tables.  But you don’t need to have those tables up all of the time.  I haven’t touched anyone’s CMS in a while, so hopefully someone can chime in with how stable it is.  That’s the only concern I have with my recommendation.  You can build or buy a coping sled or sliding miter attachment if you go the non-festool route.  I’d rather have the aluminum table over phenolic/melamine.  Likewise, I’m sure others will say they'd rather have cast iron over the aluminum.   An easy way to help your decision is to decide what router you will be using and what dust extractor.  CMS means you’ll be using a Festool router and a european portable dust extractor (Festool, Fein, Starmix, Nilfisk).  Unless any new developments have come about since I put woodworking on hiatus a couple of years ago, you will need the larger stationary machine dust extraction fittings the other router tables and you won’t be using a festool unless you drill out your own plate (it will be aluminum or phenolic, so not a big deal),

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 534
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2020, 06:52 PM »
Yetihunter, you have a point when it comes to stability regarding the GE table.
That is with It’s legs folded out (Using it with its base it’s rock steady!)
I’ve had 3 GE tables, one sold, I kept and will keep two. I noticed on the oldest I sold that the legs where a bit wobbly - so I visited a friend of mine in order to use his hydraulic press. We did get the steel tubing firmly and snug to the pivoting knuckles again. But, this made it clear that I’m going to make an easy way to cross brace the legs when using the GE tables harder than light routing and sawing. A sheet of thin light plywood cut to a roughly “X” shape preferably neatly foldable together with the legs for transport. (That means cutting to shape of what tool is mounted, and most used, so the brace-plate will clear the tool when folded in - is the idea)  It would give the table extra support on the “working side” - just as the MFT/3 needs it when planing for example.

The VL table is much more sturdy.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline jarbroen

  • Posts: 269
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2020, 01:51 PM »
I’m shopping for a router table and am seriously considering the FT offering. I have looked around for more information but it seems to be a bit old and sparse. And a lot of classified ads [eek] Are FOG’ers using something different these days?

My alternative might be an incra setup. But I am mostly going to want to do dovetails (a big feature with incra) by hand. I would mainly be using a router table for edge treats and cope and stick door construction. Just want to get a sense of the CMS still being viable.

TIA!

A lot of good replies from other members.  One thing I would add is that you can have the CMS AND Incra.
It adds to the cost overall, but I have the Incra LS Wonderfence setup with my CMS-VL set.
I still use the Festool fence and shroud for bearing bit routing occasionally, but most is done with the Incra.  I have the Precision plate which makes it like 20 seconds to install or remove the LS fence from my MFT.
So you could do your dovetails, box joints, etc. on the CMS - if you get the VL that attaches to an MFT.
It's also very stable attached to the MFT.  And, as others mentioned, you can add the MW1000 extension table for out/infeed.
I've been able to push large panels through the setup using another MFT for support.
The sliding table with mitre thingy is awesome for doing the ends of rails.  I've done a bunch shaker/chamfered style doors and it's really easy with this setup.

Yes, the whole setup is not cheap.  However, the way everything works together makes it all so versatile.  And even though I'm not mobile it's really handy that all this can store away in a corner.

Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 515
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2020, 02:54 PM »
@jarbroen will this setup  also work with the GE table.  Could you post pictures of your setup.
Thanks
Vijay Kumar

Offline jarbroen

  • Posts: 269
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2020, 05:13 PM »
The setup with the Incra fence can be made to work with the GE, but it's not as plug and play as it is with the VL.
There are a bunch of threads if you search the forum with pictures an instructions on how this is setup.
I don't have mine setup at the moment to take a picture for you.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7527
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2020, 10:33 AM »
There are several forum members that have installed the Woodpecker Micro Adjust on the CMS. That's the direction I'll be taking, simple to add, simple to remove and simple to store.

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/another-cms-micro-adjust-(-using-crown-stops)/msg343525/#msg343525


Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 534
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2020, 04:23 PM »
This looks simple yet very efficient and fast to use. My CMS OF might see this solution soon.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 541
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2020, 06:58 PM »
There is no reason to complain. The law(s) is/are in effect. Time to move on to a different solution.

You lay down and take it ..... everytime somebody else makes a decision for you?

That is the idea behind 'Befehl ist Befehl'. Not much different from what you see in the country to our east; people will just stand still at a red light for 2 minutes at a completely deserted intersection...
You already know what would happen in NL in such a case  [big grin]

There is no reason to complain. The law(s) is/are in effect. Time to move on to a different solution. The VL and GE are not the best solutions for anything. At best they are a compromise in terms of the table and fence. The plus is the fit in the system and for some that is all they need, however if you have the floor space for dedicated router table then there a multitude of options available with awesome lifts and huge tables granted they do not work with Festool routers.

Not the best for anything? My garage has limited space. I have the OF and PS modules and it stores all rather compact. The table is the same height as my MFT, which is handy when working with larger pieces.

You already acknowledge that it's the best because the requirement for all the others is... "if you have the floor space". Things are different in the USA, but common newly build houses in NL are ~100 sq metres living space house on a ~100 sq metres plot of land. You can figure out for yourself what that leaves for garage space  :'(