Author Topic: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?  (Read 3090 times)

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Offline SubjectArc

  • Posts: 2
Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« on: July 26, 2020, 11:15 AM »
I’m shopping for a router table and am seriously considering the FT offering. I have looked around for more information but it seems to be a bit old and sparse. And a lot of classified ads [eek] Are FOG’ers using something different these days?

My alternative might be an incra setup. But I am mostly going to want to do dovetails (a big feature with incra) by hand. I would mainly be using a router table for edge treats and cope and stick door construction. Just want to get a sense of the CMS still being viable.

TIA!

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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7527
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2020, 11:37 AM »
I think the CMS is still a viable approach however, it is more viable for someone that needs mobility. At $1800 you still need to purchase a Festool router $600-$1000.

If the router table will just sit in your shop then $2400-$2800 will buy you a lot of other options today. Cast iron top, Incra/Woodpeckers adjustable fence, aluminum billet router lift, LCD height gauges, fully enclosed base with storage room for bits...MLCS has a motorized router lift that indexes in .001" increments. I'm sure Woodpecker/Incra is not far behind.  [smile]

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 457
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2020, 12:40 PM »
@SubjectArc - since I note that you are new here, you should know that CMS in all of its forms has been discontinued worldwide. Plenty of background on this decision elsewhere on the forum. The search function is your friend.
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [nos], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h], Walko 4 MKII (NL) [nos], Festool MFS 400 w/add-on 700 profiles & router slide (DE) [n]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [nos] new old stock   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6638
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2020, 02:31 PM »
you should know that CMS in all of its forms has been discontinued worldwide.

Europe and Australia for sure, but isn't it still sold in the US? The US has some crazy rules about power tools, but that doesn't mean they necessarily follow Europe's crazy rules about power tools.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7527
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2020, 02:50 PM »
Europe and Australia for sure, but isn't it still sold in the US? The US has some crazy rules about power tools, but that doesn't mean they necessarily follow Europe's crazy rules about power tools.

Well that's the strange part...Festool USA announced last Sept/Oct that it was discontinued but they continue to offer it for sale and then in July, bumped the price an additional $40.  [huh]

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2154
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2020, 02:55 PM »
you should know that CMS in all of its forms has been discontinued worldwide.
Europe and Australia for sure, but isn't it still sold in the US? The US has some crazy rules about power tools, but that doesn't mean they necessarily follow Europe's crazy rules about power tools.
We should join effort on writing crazy rules. [big grin]
About CMS. If this configuration violates new safety rules, wouldn't it make ANY router table with hand router in it violate these rules?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 02:59 PM by Svar »

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 457
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2020, 03:32 PM »
you should know that CMS in all of its forms has been discontinued worldwide.
Europe and Australia for sure, but isn't it still sold in the US? The US has some crazy rules about power tools, but that doesn't mean they necessarily follow Europe's crazy rules about power tools.
We should join effort on writing crazy rules. [big grin]
About CMS. If this configuration violates new safety rules, wouldn't it make ANY router table with hand router in it violate these rules?

Nothing crazy about it. It's called an inventory dump (my phrase). Dump your remaining global inventory on a county which won't know the difference (and jack the price at the same time to try and recover as much of the embedded costs of eliminating a design which didn't meet its expected longterm revenue goals).
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 03:35 PM by TinyShop »
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [nos], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h], Walko 4 MKII (NL) [nos], Festool MFS 400 w/add-on 700 profiles & router slide (DE) [n]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [nos] new old stock   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 457
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2020, 03:33 PM »
you should know that CMS in all of its forms has been discontinued worldwide.
Europe and Australia for sure, but isn't it still sold in the US? The US has some crazy rules about power tools, but that doesn't mean they necessarily follow Europe's crazy rules about power tools.
We should join effort on writing crazy rules. [big grin]
About CMS. If this configuration violates new safety rules, wouldn't it make ANY router table with hand router in it violate these rules?

Yup.
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [nos], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h], Walko 4 MKII (NL) [nos], Festool MFS 400 w/add-on 700 profiles & router slide (DE) [n]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [nos] new old stock   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline Stan Tillinghast

  • Posts: 81
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2020, 03:59 PM »
Cheese—
I looked up the MCLS power lift. It requires an Android app <headscratch>.
I wonder how much of an advantage that would be in real life for an amateur woodworker like me.

I’m following this thread because I had already decided against the Festool router table, and am thinking about the Woodpeckers setup. I don’t need the Incra, because I do not plan to use their dovetail and other special joint system, and it takes up more room.

Looking for advice on this from those who have non-Festool router table setups.

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2835
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2020, 06:07 PM »
Jessem also makes an excellent table, lift, and fence setup. 

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 975
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2020, 09:04 PM »
We should join effort on writing crazy rules. [big grin]
About CMS. If this configuration violates new safety rules, wouldn't it make ANY router table with hand router in it violate these rules?

Only if the manufacturer makes both the router and the table. If they come from different sources then it's OK.

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 765
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2020, 10:25 PM »
I quite like my CMS GE but for the money new I'd probably look elsewhere. I was concerned about dust collection without a proper dust collector which drew me toward the CMS. It hooks up to my CT. For my usage it's great.
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2154
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2020, 01:10 AM »
About CMS. If this configuration violates new safety rules, wouldn't it make ANY router table with hand router in it violate these rules?
Only if the manufacturer makes both the router and the table. If they come from different sources then it's OK.
So, if you mix brands to build a router table it's not a safety issue any more? That does not make any sense.

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 975
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2020, 01:41 AM »
So, if you mix brands to build a router table it's not a safety issue any more? That does not make any sense.

The ruling is that if you manufacture a portable tool that has a table that converts it into a "fixed" machine it must be fitted with an NVR switch. Because the CMS's switch can be bypassed by plugging the router or saw into a wall outlet so as to bypass the switch it is no longer "legal". It is because of this loophole that Festool can no longer offer the CMS for sale. However as I see it any other manufacturer can offer a router/saw table as long as they don't make a router/saw to fit it.

If Festools routers/saw/etc were equiped with a builtin NVR switch they could still sell the CMS.

This ruling would also apply to the components that convert the planner to a jointer.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2154
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2020, 02:39 AM »
So, if you mix brands to build a router table it's not a safety issue any more? That does not make any sense.
The ruling is that if you manufacture a portable tool that has a table that converts it into a "fixed" machine it must be fitted with an NVR switch. Because the CMS's switch can be bypassed by plugging the router or saw into a wall outlet so as to bypass the switch it is no longer "legal". It is because of this loophole that Festool can no longer offer the CMS for sale. However as I see it any other manufacturer can offer a router/saw table as long as they don't make a router/saw to fit it.
If Festools routers/saw/etc were equiped with a builtin NVR switch they could still sell the CMS.
I'm not aware of any router on the market today equipped with NVR switch. Hence, any router table manufacturer seems to be in violation of the new safety rules, because customer has no other option but to install non-NVR router into it. I realize this is a loophole, but it's just insane.
A reasonable solution off course would be putting NVR switches on power tools. Metabo has them on some angle grinders.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:52 AM by Svar »

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 975
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2020, 02:52 AM »
I'm not aware of any router on the market today equipped with NVR switch. Hence, any router table manufacturer seems to be in violation of the new safety rules, because customer has no other option but to install non-NVR router into it. I realize this is a loophole, but it's just insane.

It's not insane, it's the EU.  [eek]

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6638
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2020, 04:29 AM »
I realize this is a loophole, but it's just insane.
A reasonable solution off course would be putting NVR switches on power tools. Metabo has them on some angle grinders.

There will be a time when they're standard on any power tool. Like all electronical components they will eventually make them so small you'll hardly notice they're there.

What is insane is that a solution that worked for over 50 years suddenly is not legal anymore. The EU is slowly choking our society to death with their rules. 

Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2020, 07:54 AM »
I have the CMS-GE with a 1400 and absolutely love it. I picked it up used for $1300, pretty sweet deal for everything. I have zero intentions of doing detailed dovetail routing or the like, so the CMS fit my needs perfectly. Having that sliding drawer has already come in handy in recent projects, I would not have been able to certain cuts without that feature alone.

Offline simonh

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Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2020, 08:07 AM »
My alternative might be an incra setup. But I am mostly going to want to do dovetails (a big feature with incra) by hand. I would mainly be using a router table for edge treats and cope and stick door construction. Just want to get a sense of the CMS still being viable.

I'd seriously take a look at the Jesem setup with the TA Fence and Mite-R-Slide II or the cheaper fence and slider.
-Simon

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 954
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2020, 08:42 AM »
There is no reason to complain. The law(s) is/are in effect. Time to move on to a different solution. The VL and GE are not the best solutions for anything. At best they are a compromise in terms of the table and fence. The plus is the fit in the system and for some that is all they need, however if you have the floor space for dedicated router table then there a multitude of options available with awesome lifts and huge tables granted they do not work with Festool routers.

Offline Alex

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Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2020, 10:03 AM »
There is no reason to complain. The law(s) is/are in effect. Time to move on to a different solution.

You lay down and take it ..... everytime somebody else makes a decision for you?

Online Cheese

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Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2020, 10:34 AM »
What Festool should have done was to market the various CMS modules under the Protool name, including the orange logo and kept the actual power tools under the Festool green banner...no one would have been the wiser.  [big grin]  [poke]

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 954
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2020, 10:38 AM »
There is no reason to complain. The law(s) is/are in effect. Time to move on to a different solution.

You lay down and take it ..... everytime somebody else makes a decision for you?

Nope, but it is far too late and it's a power tool law and not something that impacts my life in any way. If you are going to fight it has to be a worthy cause and this is not worth a moments thought. I'd consider this the same as having (or buying an older car) without any airbags. Nothing wrong with it other than cars without them are no longer available for purchase as new. You can fight it all you want, but you will not win. Spend your energy on something you can possibly affect.

Offline Bert Vanderveen

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Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 10:41 AM »
There is no reason to complain. The law(s) is/are in effect. Time to move on to a different solution.

You lay down and take it ..... everytime somebody else makes a decision for you?


Well, I like that everyone drives on the right side of the road over here. I remember seeing how the people in Sweden reacted to switching from left to right in one day — not many were laying down. In fact everyone complied. I wonder why?
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 Mk2 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 EQ · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · Kapex KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE · Vecturo 18 Li · TID 18 · TKS 80 EBS-Set · … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer A3 31 Silent Power · Hammer N4400 · Hammer HS950 | TaigaTools VacPods Pro Set
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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6638
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 10:58 AM »
Spend your energy on something you can possibly affect.

I am all for the EU becomming one. But the way it works now is VERY undemocratic, and this is just one drop in a very large cesspool.

The last word about this whole process is not said yet, and I've got a few of them on my lips.


Well, I like that everyone drives on the right side of the road over here. I remember seeing how the people in Sweden reacted to switching from left to right in one day — not many were laying down. In fact everyone complied. I wonder why?

Because it was a reasonable decision to realise they were the odd ones out and to correct that, and Swedes are very reasonable people.

This was not an EU Decision, but a Swedish decision. BTW, "taking it laying down" means complying without question.

On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing reasonable about how the EU works right now. Our ancestors FOUGHT for their democratic rights, while the generations right now give it all away again for a cup of coffee and an iPad.

Ok, I realise I'm getting political, I'll be quiet now.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 849
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 11:05 AM »
While I think this is a rule that people can definitely poke holes at, it's something that once everyone changes, people will move on.

Primarily, if Festool brings out a dedicated router table.  If they take OF2200 and CS saw bits, put them together as one, folks will probably move on quickly.  This very well will be more price efficient too.   I think this is the head scratcher,  it's not like this law came out of the no where.  Festool had time and it's pretty amazing they didn't get something ready and even start to market before the CMS ended.

I'm not a fan of mix matched jumble of different manufactures parts to make a setup.  I liked the CMS setup, but with it being discontinued, and the other modules never being sold in the US, it made for a less than great answer. I don't think there is much in the way of tables that take Festool Routers, and the other conventional solutions have no appeal to me, so right now, I won't own a router table any time soon.   

I think the idea of some generic router table, and then some big dumb router bolted to it has been around for so long that it's hard for people to think any other way.

I would think companies will be bringing out solutions (maybe they have outside N. America).  I doubt they want to all give up on that bit of router sales.

Offline jcrowe1950

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Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 05:16 PM »
@SubjectArc - since I note that you are new here, you should know that CMS in all of its forms has been discontinued worldwide. Plenty of background on this decision elsewhere on the forum. The search function is your friend.
I asked my Festool regional sales rep about this a while back and he told me that the CMS router tables were not discontinued, but rather only available in the full kit. It used to be available in the U.S. in the full kit form and a slightly cheaper form that IIRC did not include the sliding table. IMO, the standalone version makes some degree of sense because in addition to the sliding table, good fence, typical Festool dust extraction and interesting pin routing safety function, it includes a table extension. Of course with the extrusions, you can add on a MW 1000 top. Currently, we can still get them for customers. Festool USA only supports the OF 1010 and OF 1400 in the CMS in the U.S. Many people use the OF 2200 in the CMS router tables as well. 8)
Festool Specialist at Woodcraft, Chattanooga, TN

Offline box185

  • Posts: 115
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2020, 08:23 PM »
I'm not a fan of mix matched jumble of different manufactures parts to make a setup.  I liked the CMS setup, but with it being discontinued, and the other modules never being sold in the US, it made for a less than great answer. I don't think there is much in the way of tables that take Festool Routers, and the other conventional solutions have no appeal to me, so right now, I won't own a router table any time soon.

There is this option - one for each Festool router - recently posted elsewhere on this site . . . ( remove the space after https: )
https: //dag-tools.ru/milling/milling_plate/milling-plate-festool?_route_=milling%2Fmilling_plate%2Fmilling-plate-festool

Offline yetihunter

  • Posts: 749
Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2020, 03:55 AM »
If money is an object, put words like Jessem and Woodpeckers on a wall and throw a dart at it. I’ve been there and done that and since I’m down to only an of1010 and an of1400, if I bought a router table again, it would be the CMS.  Same functionality, added portability and really not much less sturdy.  The $1700 seems like a lot, but you get extensions and a sliding table in that kit and the routers go in and out without much fuss.  The Taiwanese factories hooked up with a supplier of cast iron tables so now that’s an option on the pick an OEM router table by the tail “options” list.  But last I checked, aluminum isn’t particle board with a plastic veneer on it, either.  You can make dust collection work on these other router tables, but it’s kind of a nightmare.  They’ve gotten better now that you can get an off the shelf dust box included with the kit, but you’re still sucking dust through your router...

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Has the CMS-GE fallen out of favor?
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2020, 09:20 AM »
This is one of those threads where the answer to question depends on location - at this point in time.  I inquired this morning and in North America - where the OP appears to live - the CMS-GE is still a current item.  The CMS Basic is discontinued.  I think that reading the writing on the wall might be prudent.  If you are on the fence about a CMS table you might want to get off that fence sooner versus later.

It is a premium product that is designed for mobility and easy mounting / dismounting of a router.  The full kit with the sliding table does offer benefits that are not normally seen in other router tables.  But each user is different and obviously there are cost versus rewards decisions that will personally come into play.

I don't use mine much, but I sure am glad that I purchased mine and it is there when I need it.

Peter