Author Topic: Granat net or saphir  (Read 2470 times)

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Offline dataz722

  • Posts: 20
Granat net or saphir
« on: April 24, 2019, 09:05 AM »
Hi, I am new here and just bought my first Festool yesterday, a RO150.  I never thought I would own Festool, but an opportunity came up and it made financial sense for the company I work for to buy it and I will get to keep it after this project is done. 

I have 7 old doors that have at least 4 layers of paint on them, including one fairly fresh coat, that need to be stripped off.  What I can't decide is which abrasive would be best.  I picked up a box of 80 grit net with the sander, but am now wondering if I should have gone with 24 grit saphir.  What would be the best as a decent mix of speed and life of the discs.  I am concerned about the saphir clogging up and going through it pretty quickly where I believe I could blow out or soak the net to clear it. 

Thanks!

And yes, I know there is a chance the door have lead paint in them.  I have done a couple of the cheap big box 3M lead tests and got mixed results.  I am working on the assumption there is lead paint and taking the appropriate precautions; working outside, respirator with brand new cartridges, dust collection, tyvek coverall suit, and a fan behind me blowing the dust away from me.

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Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1720
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2019, 09:58 AM »
I'm not an expert in this by any stretch, but I'll offer my opinion anyway.  I like the NET abrasives for things like drywall or sanding primer.  Things that dust up into small particles.  Further, I like it for orbital sanders not the rotex sanders.  They are somewhat delicate and while I haven't tried them on rotex mode, I suspect they wouldn't hold up.  For paint I would go with a traditional abrasive (granat is what I usually use) and keep the sander moving to keep the abrasive and surface as cool as possible.  Heat gums up film finishes and makes more work and destroys abrasives faster.  If the film layer was sufficiently thick, I might try a few rounds with a chemical stripper, remove what you can, let it dry thoroughly, then go to the sanders. 
-Raj

Offline dataz722

  • Posts: 20
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2019, 10:45 AM »
I was afraid the regular granat would get clogged and be worthless too quickly to be worth it, but I may have to try it if the net won't hold up to the Rotex.  I have used abranet before and loved it and it seemed to resist tearing and cracking a lot more than normal paper, so I hadn't even considered it not being able to handle the Rotex.  I just wish I could buy individual sheets or even small 5 packs to see which would work best for these.  I don't really want to get a whole box of Saphir when this is likely the only time I would ever use it.

I tried chemical strippers and on one side of one of the doors and it didn't work well and was going to use a ton of it.  I used darn near a half gallon (at $25 per half gallon) on just one side and only got maybe the first 2 layers and a bit of the third.  Plus it really sucked to work with!  The have the doors professionally dipped and stripped would have cost over $700, hence why when I floated the idea of the Rotex it actually saved money.   [big grin]  Essentially, I don't want to deal with stripping at all.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6082
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2019, 12:31 PM »
I'd stay away from my precious doors with Saphir, we don't wanna scratch up a nice looking straight door. Use standard granat grit 60 or 80, not the net variety. After that go over it with a finer grit like 120 and finish with 180. I haven't used the net paper yet but I wouldn'ty trust it for heavy stripping. As for clogging, that is to be expected, you can't do a good stripping job without burning through some discs.

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 316
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2019, 12:35 PM »
I was afraid the regular granat would get clogged and be worthless too quickly to be worth it, but I may have to try it if the net won't hold up to the Rotex.  I have used abranet before and loved it and it seemed to resist tearing and cracking a lot more than normal paper, so I hadn't even considered it not being able to handle the Rotex.  I just wish I could buy individual sheets or even small 5 packs to see which would work best for these.  I don't really want to get a whole box of Saphir when this is likely the only time I would ever use it.

I tried chemical strippers and on one side of one of the doors and it didn't work well and was going to use a ton of it.  I used darn near a half gallon (at $25 per half gallon) on just one side and only got maybe the first 2 layers and a bit of the third.  Plus it really sucked to work with!  The have the doors professionally dipped and stripped would have cost over $700, hence why when I floated the idea of the Rotex it actually saved money.   [big grin]  Essentially, I don't want to deal with stripping at all.

Have you tried Peel Away 1?  That seems to work wonders on most paints, although I've heard if there's too much latex it can sometimes require a second round.


Offline nvalinski

  • Posts: 97
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2019, 12:52 PM »
Not to make you buy another tool, but have you seen the Metabo paint removal tool? Might make quick work of taking the paint off with a blade instead of gumming up a lot of sandpaper. The Rotex would be great for taking off the remainder after a pass with the Metabo, I imagine (haven't actually handled one myself).

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2280
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2019, 01:31 PM »
I'd stay away from my precious doors with Saphir, we don't wanna scratch up a nice looking straight door. Use standard granat grit 60 or 80, not the net variety. After that go over it with a finer grit like 120 and finish with 180. I haven't used the net paper yet but I wouldn'ty trust it for heavy stripping. As for clogging, that is to be expected, you can't do a good stripping job without burning through some discs.
  I have little to no fear of using Saphir on these doors ,IF, the paint layers are that thick... [scared]
 But as Alex notes, you can use Granat, it's made for this type of work. If you get any removed finish balling up on the surface of the sanding disc, stop the sander and use the edge of a small paint scraper or screwdriver to gently flick the heated up ball of finish off the disc. 
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4172
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2019, 04:59 PM »
With that many layers of paint and the top layer is not too old, I’d use a hand scraper as much as I could tolerate, rather than immediately clogging up abrasives.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6385
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2019, 05:53 PM »
I just wish I could buy individual sheets or even small 5 packs to see which would work best for these.  I don't really want to get a whole box of Saphir when this is likely the only time I would ever use it.

Toolnut sells 10 packs of Granat.

https://www.festoolproducts.com/accessories/sanders/abrasives/ets-ec-150-abrasives/festool-granat-multi-jetstream-2-for-6-150mm-sanders-40-320-grit-10-pack.html

Offline dataz722

  • Posts: 20
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2019, 06:28 PM »
I'd stay away from my precious doors with Saphir, we don't wanna scratch up a nice looking straight door. Use standard granat grit 60 or 80, not the net variety. After that go over it with a finer grit like 120 and finish with 180. I haven't used the net paper yet but I wouldn'ty trust it for heavy stripping. As for clogging, that is to be expected, you can't do a good stripping job without burning through some discs.

I'm not worried about scratching up the doors as they will have to be painted again anyway.  The wood is in no shape to just be finished, plus i'm going to have to cut out and patch a section of each on to remove the mortise from the skeleton key lock that was in them.


Have you tried Peel Away 1?  That seems to work wonders on most paints, although I've heard if there's too much latex it can sometimes require a second round.

No, at first I bought multistrip advanced, but I would have needed to do that outside because of the fumes and the weather wouldn't cooperate so I went back and go citristrip.  I had read pretty good things about it, and I guess it worked well for the top couple of layers, but the ones that are likely lead it didn't do much.  There are still some parts of the door (the rounded areas inside the panels) that I won't have much of a choice but to strip.  I'm going to try the multistrip on them, unless I can find another way to do those areas.

Not to make you buy another tool, but have you seen the Metabo paint removal tool? Might make quick work of taking the paint off with a blade instead of gumming up a lot of sandpaper. The Rotex would be great for taking off the remainder after a pass with the Metabo, I imagine (haven't actually handled one myself).

There is no way I could swing another tool right now.  The company paid for the Rotex, and that was a bit of a hard sell.  I ended up getting the hard backer pad myself and while I was back in Woodcraft today I stupidly (at least from a financial sense) bought a CT26 too.


So after two trips to woodcraft today, I have found there really is no best option for paper for this.  The net that I bought yesterday clogged and was useless darn near immediately so I went back and didn't want to mess around any more so I bought a box of both 24g Saphir and 40g granat.  The Saphir does work a little better and last a little longer, but I don't think it is enough to make up for being twice as expensive.  I knew I would be going through a lot of paper no matter what, but I didn't expect it to be this bad.  That said, I've never done any sort of refinishing or stripping work as everything I have ever done was just made from the start by me, so I really didn't know what to expect.  I went through probably 15-20 sheets on just one door, and this was one of the ones that didn't have the somewhat fresh coat of latex on it.

I also didn't expect the Rotex to be that much of a beast.  It was the most workout my shoulders and arms have had in a really long time and I am sore as anything right now.  Also, does the RO150 no longer come with the front auxiliary handle?  I thought it did, but what I was seeing may have been old.  Either that or it was just missing in mine.

I do have one last question though, and maybe it would be better suited for its own thread, I don't know.  Since I now have the CT26, which worked amazing, and have been sanding what may be lead paint, I will want to try and get as much remaining dust out of the system as possible once I am done these doors.  I was thinking I would just replace the bag and maybe the filter and then suck up a bunch of water to try and clear out the hose.  I don't know what to do about the Rotex itself aside from blasting it with compressed air.  Any better way to do it or is there something wrong with my plan?

Thanks again

Offline dataz722

  • Posts: 20
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2019, 06:29 PM »
I just wish I could buy individual sheets or even small 5 packs to see which would work best for these.  I don't really want to get a whole box of Saphir when this is likely the only time I would ever use it.

Toolnut sells 10 packs of Granat.

https://www.festoolproducts.com/accessories/sanders/abrasives/ets-ec-150-abrasives/festool-granat-multi-jetstream-2-for-6-150mm-sanders-40-320-grit-10-pack.html

My local Woodcraft does too, but its only Granat.  I wish they had Saphir in 10 packs so I didn't end up buying that hole box.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2227
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2019, 07:36 PM »
Stripper, scraper and then sander.  Sorry but just sanding is not the best solution.

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 333
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2019, 08:58 PM »
Stripper, scraper and then sander.  Sorry but just sanding is not the best solution.

I agree. The sander is a finishing tool, and even then may be too much tool for the job. The grunt work in stripping is chemical (if the paint adheres firmly), and followed by scraping, which will not damage fine detail (which sand paper will do). A sander is best for larger, flat surfaces. Otherwise use a hand sander (sold by both Festool and Mirka).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline dataz722

  • Posts: 20
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2019, 09:11 PM »
Stripper, scraper and then sander.  Sorry but just sanding is not the best solution.

I agree. The sander is a finishing tool, and even then may be too much tool for the job. The grunt work in stripping is chemical (if the paint adheres firmly), and followed by scraping, which will not damage fine detail (which sand paper will do). A sander is best for larger, flat surfaces. Otherwise use a hand sander (sold by both Festool and Mirka).

Regards from Perth

Derek

From what experience I have with stripping (and it is a ton... a whole half of one side of a door) I would have thought it would make it too gummy and gum up the paper merely by even looking at it.  I guess I will take what stripper I have left and try it again on the side I already started and see what I can do.

Thanks

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6385
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2019, 10:46 PM »
My rule of thumb when using a sander to completely remove previous surface coatings, is to use it to strip only previously clear coated/varnished surfaces because they tend to be relatively thin in thickness. When trying to remove paint layers, I use a chemical stripper and a scraper, they'll soon become your friends.

Besides, when trying to remove multiple layers of paint from a soft wooden surface with a sander, you run the risk of damaging the substrate which ironically is what you're trying to protect. Use some juice, some scrapers and as Derek stated, the sander is your final step to just smooth out the surface.


Offline dataz722

  • Posts: 20
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2019, 11:03 PM »
My rule of thumb when using a sander to completely remove previous surface coatings, is to use it to strip only previously clear coated/varnished surfaces because they tend to be relatively thin in thickness. When trying to remove paint layers, I use a chemical stripper and a scraper, they'll soon become your friends.

Besides, when trying to remove multiple layers of paint from a soft wooden surface with a sander, you run the risk of damaging the substrate which ironically is what you're trying to protect. Use some juice, some scrapers and as Derek stated, the sander is your final step to just smooth out the surface.

Thanks.  I'll try the stripper again.  I was just going through so much of it and it wasn't doing a whole heck of a lot I thought I would be better off sanding.  Maybe it was just the stuff I was using.  I am trying to find peel away now and i'll give that a try.

Offline cblanton42

  • Posts: 91
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2019, 01:59 AM »
I've removed miles of paint on wood boats and in this case everyone's advice is wrong so far..... 

A HEAT GUN AND PUTTY KNIFE are the tools needed for this job and will make very short work of it, sanders are for smoothing/finishing not removing layers of paint.  Trust me on this one!!! 

Offline Pnw painter

  • Posts: 212
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2019, 01:59 AM »
Why do you need to completely strip the doors? As long as the old paint is adhering a full strip shouldn’t be necessary.

I’m not sure how you’ve set up the doors for sanding, but set up a couple saw horses to set the doors on top of them. This will save your back and shoulders.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6082
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2019, 02:38 AM »
I'm not worried about scratching up the doors as they will have to be painted again anyway. 

The scratches will be so deep they'll show right through the new layer of paint. Proper way to work is to not make the scratches at all, so you don't have to put time and materials in removing them later. I paint a lot and I never touch anything with a grit lower than 60 if it's going to be in plain sight. I pay a lot of attention to doors especially, you see every little imperfection on them.

I went through probably 15-20 sheets on just one door, and this was one of the ones that didn't have the somewhat fresh coat of latex on it.

Ok, seriously? What kind of stuff do you guys use to paint your doors, chewing gum? I've done entire houses with only one or two discs of Saphir, that stuff lasts forever.

What I'm used to, stripping a door with granat 60 would costs me a disc per side. If I'd gone through 3 discs on a single side then it is time to look for another method, like the scraper and heat gun, a pressure washer, or a blow torch.

Offline dataz722

  • Posts: 20
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2019, 09:57 AM »
I've removed miles of paint on wood boats and in this case everyone's advice is wrong so far..... 

A HEAT GUN AND PUTTY KNIFE are the tools needed for this job and will make very short work of it, sanders are for smoothing/finishing not removing layers of paint.  Trust me on this one!!!

I had thought a heat gun was really slow, so I didn't try it.  It wouldn't hurt to try though, as I already have a heat gun.

Why do you need to completely strip the doors? As long as the old paint is adhering a full strip shouldn’t be necessary.

I’m not sure how you’ve set up the doors for sanding, but set up a couple saw horses to set the doors on top of them. This will save your back and shoulders.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I pulled a couple out of the attic that haven't been painted recently and they are completely crack and peeling.  The ones that were repainted before we bought the place were done really poorly with giant globs and drips all over them.  Plus, I am going to have to cut out and patch a section where mortise for the skeleton key was.

I do have them on pretty sturdy saw horses.



The scratches will be so deep they'll show right through the new layer of paint. Proper way to work is to not make the scratches at all, so you don't have to put time and materials in removing them later. I paint a lot and I never touch anything with a grit lower than 60 if it's going to be in plain sight. I pay a lot of attention to doors especially, you see every little imperfection on them.

Ok, seriously? What kind of stuff do you guys use to paint your doors, chewing gum? I've done entire houses with only one or two discs of Saphir, that stuff lasts forever.

What I'm used to, stripping a door with granat 60 would costs me a disc per side. If I'd gone through 3 discs on a single side then it is time to look for another method, like the scraper and heat gun, a pressure washer, or a blow torch.

I'm going to go back over them up to either 80 or 120.  The doors are likely over 100 years old, but while I don't want it to look horrible, I am not worried if they are not perfect either.

It is just that they are gumming up really quickly.  I don't know if it is just due to how much paint is on there or maybe what could be lead paint?  Or heck, it could very well be user error and I have the speed to high or using too much pressure.  I'm used to working with fresh bare wood so this is completely new to me.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1720
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2019, 10:56 AM »
As I said above, heat melts the paint and makes a mess.  That's why sanding paint is not fun.  So think about what you're doing that generates heat.  Pressure - let the machine do the work, don't lean into it.  Too much suction can also draw the sander into the surface.  Turn it down, you won't hurt your extraction efficiency much by cutting the suction down to half.  Adjust your movement so you're not dwelling over an area too long.  If an 1" per second is gumming up too fast, go a little faster. 
-Raj

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1301
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2019, 06:17 AM »
I went through probably 15-20 sheets on just one door, and this was one of the ones that didn't have the somewhat fresh coat of latex on it.

Ok, seriously? What kind of stuff do you guys use to paint your doors, chewing gum? I've done entire houses with only one or two discs of Saphir, that stuff lasts forever.

What I'm used to, stripping a door with granat 60 would costs me a disc per side. If I'd gone through 3 discs on a single side then it is time to look for another method, like the scraper and heat gun, a pressure washer, or a blow torch.
It took me a while to learn not to keep in one place too long to not melt (instead of sand) the surface as this quickly destroys the paper. Maybe this account of my early failures can help @dataz722 (as being new to the machine from what I gathered in the OP) to shorten his learning curve should he have a similar problem? My lesson learned is to never stop moving the rotex, and move faster than slower, when sanding away existing finishes...
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 06:20 AM by Gregor »

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2280
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2019, 05:00 PM »
I've removed miles of paint on wood boats and in this case everyone's advice is wrong so far..... 

A HEAT GUN AND PUTTY KNIFE are the tools needed for this job and will make very short work of it, sanders are for smoothing/finishing not removing layers of paint.  Trust me on this one!!!
. If you use too much heat you vaporize the lead in the paint, I believe it’s about 750 degrees F that’s the danger level.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline cblanton42

  • Posts: 91
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2019, 04:34 AM »
I wouldn't be concerned about the fumes when he's only doing 7 doors worth of work, a respirator could be worn for a big job.  I would be WAAAAY more concerned about breathing in the lead DUST created by the sanding!! 

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2280
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2019, 04:03 PM »
I wouldn't be concerned about the fumes when he's only doing 7 doors worth of work, a respirator could be worn for a big job.  I would be WAAAAY more concerned about breathing in the lead DUST created by the sanding!!
   The OP should be wearing a Respirator regardless. And if he's got that CT -26, he's cut down on the dust to begin with.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2280
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2019, 04:08 PM »
I'd stay away from my precious doors with Saphir, we don't wanna scratch up a nice looking straight door. Use standard granat grit 60 or 80, not the net variety. After that go over it with a finer grit like 120 and finish with 180. I haven't used the net paper yet but I wouldn'ty trust it for heavy stripping. As for clogging, that is to be expected, you can't do a good stripping job without burning through some discs.

I'm not worried about scratching up the doors as they will have to be painted again anyway.  The wood is in no shape to just be finished, plus i'm going to have to cut out and patch a section of each on to remove the mortise from the skeleton key lock that was in them.


Have you tried Peel Away 1?  That seems to work wonders on most paints, although I've heard if there's too much latex it can sometimes require a second round.

No, at first I bought multistrip advanced, but I would have needed to do that outside because of the fumes and the weather wouldn't cooperate so I went back and go citristrip.  I had read pretty good things about it, and I guess it worked well for the top couple of layers, but the ones that are likely lead it didn't do much.  There are still some parts of the door (the rounded areas inside the panels) that I won't have much of a choice but to strip.  I'm going to try the multistrip on them, unless I can find another way to do those areas.

Not to make you buy another tool, but have you seen the Metabo paint removal tool? Might make quick work of taking the paint off with a blade instead of gumming up a lot of sandpaper. The Rotex would be great for taking off the remainder after a pass with the Metabo, I imagine (haven't actually handled one myself).

There is no way I could swing another tool right now.  The company paid for the Rotex, and that was a bit of a hard sell.  I ended up getting the hard backer pad myself and while I was back in Woodcraft today I stupidly (at least from a financial sense) bought a CT26 too.


So after two trips to woodcraft today, I have found there really is no best option for paper for this.  The net that I bought yesterday clogged and was useless darn near immediately so I went back and didn't want to mess around any more so I bought a box of both 24g Saphir and 40g granat.  The Saphir does work a little better and last a little longer, but I don't think it is enough to make up for being twice as expensive.  I knew I would be going through a lot of paper no matter what, but I didn't expect it to be this bad.  That said, I've never done any sort of refinishing or stripping work as everything I have ever done was just made from the start by me, so I really didn't know what to expect.  I went through probably 15-20 sheets on just one door, and this was one of the ones that didn't have the somewhat fresh coat of latex on it.

I also didn't expect the Rotex to be that much of a beast.  It was the most workout my shoulders and arms have had in a really long time and I am sore as anything right now.  Also, does the RO150 no longer come with the front auxiliary handle?  I thought it did, but what I was seeing may have been old.  Either that or it was just missing in mine.

I do have one last question though, and maybe it would be better suited for its own thread, I don't know.  Since I now have the CT26, which worked amazing, and have been sanding what may be lead paint, I will want to try and get as much remaining dust out of the system as possible once I am done these doors.  I was thinking I would just replace the bag and maybe the filter and then suck up a bunch of water to try and clear out the hose.  I don't know what to do about the Rotex itself aside from blasting it with compressed air.  Any better way to do it or is there something wrong with my plan?

Thanks again
  Front Aux handle is available as an accessory, at least it has been in the past. I don't think they came with the Sanders in the past or even here in the present, but if they're still available, GET ONE, it really helps with using the Rotex since you can change your grip, and you have a different leverage point on the tool while sanding with it.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline dataz722

  • Posts: 20
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2019, 09:25 PM »
I wouldn't be concerned about the fumes when he's only doing 7 doors worth of work, a respirator could be worn for a big job.  I would be WAAAAY more concerned about breathing in the lead DUST created by the sanding!!
   The OP should be wearing a Respirator regardless. And if he's got that CT -26, he's cut down on the dust to begin with.

I am, with brand new cartridges and a tyvek suit too.  I figure between those, doing it outside, and the ct26 and some extra precautions I should be ok. 

I’m going to try and work on the second door tomorrow.  Hopefully it goes smoother.

Offline Chinski

  • Posts: 51
Re: Granat net or saphir
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2019, 04:36 AM »
You've probably completed the job by now - but I'd recommend looking again at the dipping option and maybe find another cheaper company. When you consider the material cost, labour cost and time taken to complete the job with alternative approaches, I've always found dipping to be by far the most sensible option over the years for painted door renovation. 

There are suppliers on eBay (in the UK at least) who will sell you any combination of sheets for your finishing - yes, at a slight premium over what you'd pay per sheet if you bought 50 of one - but like you say, not many of us need so many of any single grit.

Have fun.