Author Topic: Festool TS60 K ?  (Read 22351 times)

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Offline leftistelf

  • Posts: 57
Festool TS60 K ?
« on: July 12, 2022, 05:24 AM »
Seems like Festool posted a video of a new saws today… anyone have any details?




Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline figle

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2022, 05:35 AM »
I've seen it on Festool's website. Looks like 5mm deeper cut than the 55, new narrower blades and the ability to use the FSK rails.

I'm kind of thinking heavily now how it compares to TSC55 I got a week ago, especially the FSK rail option. I'd argue using FSK rails would be more suited for a cordless saw. Nonetheless, I wonder how different is the foot on the TS60 compared to say TSC55 and if in theory Festool could provide it as an option for the other saws?

Offline JINRO

  • Posts: 154
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2022, 07:58 AM »
I'm guessing this is for cuts between 55 and 75 but uses thinner blade? Owning both 55 and 75, I need to justify myself not to buy this one :p

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 539
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2022, 08:36 AM »
What a strange product. It's a TS55 which cuts only 5mm deeper.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the point, and who exactly is this tool aimed at? It's like them bringing out a CT27, CT37 and CT49 which will all run in parallel with the existing range. If they'd updated and replaced the TS55 with this, I'd completely understand - but two saws in the range whose capacities are only a whisker apart?

It also has a UK list price approaching £700 - that's 27% more than a TS55, and only £100 less than a TS75. Thanks - but I'll pass.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 08:49 AM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline JINRO

  • Posts: 154
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2022, 08:54 AM »
What a strange product. It's a TS55 which cuts only 5mm deeper.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the point, and who exactly is this tool aimed at? It's like them bringing out a CT27, CT37 and CT49 which will all run in parallel with the existing range. If they'd updated and replaced the TS55 with this, I'd completely understand - but two saws in the range whose capacities are only a whisker apart?

It also has a UK list price approaching £700 - that's 27% more than a TS55, and only £100 less than a TS75. Thanks - but I'll pass.

I'm beginning to wonder too after reading your thoughts.  There is no merit unless it's incorporated with some new features. Updated TS55 was also not much upgrade from the original. I was expecting incorporated LCD/LED screen which I saw somewhere in FOG. But since appearance looks similar to it's predecessor doesn't seem to assert any outstanding new features.

Offline figle

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2022, 10:03 AM »
Just talked to Festool rep. There's also blade cut markings on the other side of the foot, upgraded depth scale setting (same arrow type as in angle setting). Yes, nothing major.

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1652
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2022, 10:21 AM »


https://www.festool.com/products/sawing/circular-saws/576721---ts-60-kebq-plus

A few thoughts:

It has a front handle similar to the HK/HKC.

It can use the FSK rails like the HK/HKC.

The ability to use it on FSK rails means that construction folk can get their 45-degree bevels on 2-by material, which has been the chief complaint against the HK/HKC-55.

It appears to have a rubberized grip.  I don't mind rubberized grips, but something in my body's chemistry destroys most rubberized coatings faster than the average human, so I'd be constantly worried about using gloves with it.

I'm having a hard time deciding if this is intended as a replacement for the HK/HKC 55, and the TS 55 remains the go-to for sheet goods until such time as they merge the two into a single offering.  After all, the chief advantage to the HK/HKC in construction-type work is the fact that it's NOT primarily a plunge saw; it handles like any other circular saw, just way over the top.

It seems like an awful lot of time and money to spend on a "pathfinder" or "market study" type of saw, so it'll be interesting in the long-term to see whether the HK/HKC gets a new variant or if it's quietly phased out over time.  I would say that was the fate for the TS/TSC-55, but they literally just updated it, so it seems silly to drop it from the lineup in favor of this model.

Online GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 2210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2022, 10:33 AM »
Here's a video of the TS 60 K on the FSK rail:



I also just noticed that the TS 60 K has the integrated KickbackStop like the TSC 55 K and also has a brushless EC-TEC motor.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 10:39 AM by GoingMyWay »
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Offline tsmi243

  • Posts: 320
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2022, 02:45 PM »
What a strange product. It's a TS55 which cuts only 5mm deeper.


Most tracksaws, you go all the way to 10, and that's all you get.  This one goes to 11. 

Offline Ebuwan

  • Posts: 121
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2022, 03:08 PM »
Watching the video, seems it's geared toward hipsters from Brooklyn and people into raving.

Offline Maestronus

  • Posts: 22
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2022, 03:53 PM »
1500W brushless (vs 1200W brushed) so AT LEAST 25% more power. Brushless can be 10-15% more efficient so adding up it could have like 40% more power.
62mm depth (vs 50mm) so 25% more capacity
4.8kg (vs 4.3kg) so 12% heavier
6800 max rpm (vs 5800), 17% more
FSK rail compatibility
Anti-kickback like the TSC K
Improved depth adjustment(?)
~27% higher MSRP(?)

Seems like a pretty nice portable and powerful hybrid to me, when you can’t own/bring a kapex/multiple saws.
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Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 539
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2022, 05:29 PM »
What a strange product. It's a TS55 which cuts only 5mm deeper.


Most tracksaws, you go all the way to 10, and that's all you get.  This one goes to 11.

Yeah - but you can’t touch it. You can’t even look at it.

(It's a Spinal Tap joke for anyone who doesn't understand this reply to the above post  [smile])
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 02:16 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Paul_HKI

  • Posts: 204
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2022, 06:26 PM »
Hmmm.  Maybe it's just a big bigger so they can fill up the wasted space in the Sys3 it'll ship in?   [big grin]
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Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 550
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2022, 08:44 PM »
In my limited experience, a TSK 55 cannot routinely make a clean 45 degree bevel cut in a 2x construction lumber.  A few extra mms would address that issue.

A recent post warned against using a 165mm blade in a TS 55.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2022, 12:46 AM »
No riving knife, no deal.

Great that it has anti-kickback, but it still doesn't protect against the cut-off closing getting chopped up at the rear of the blade if there is tension in the wood.

Nice to cut into thicker wooden countertops... current TS55 lacks just a few mm sometimes.

Good to see a new more powerfull and brushless motor. With the brushelss... makes me wonder why it's still 500 grams heavier. Probably the base to accomodate the FSK rails..

I wonder... can the TS 55 FEBQ riving knife be modded onto it?

Now that I mentioned the riving knife... I just see now that the TS 55 R and F have a riving knife that doesn't go as deep as the first TS 55's.

A recent post warned against using a 165mm blade in a TS 55.

TS 60 K uses 168 mm blades. Still 1.8mm thick.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 12:59 AM by Coen »

Offline figle

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2022, 04:48 AM »
Seems like a pretty nice portable and powerful hybrid to me, when you can’t own/bring a kapex/multiple saws.
But is corded truly portable? I bet we'll see a cordless version next year. It will make more sense with FSK, I think.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 10184
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2022, 10:49 AM »
No riving knife, no deal.

I have a serious question, in the wild does it really make that much of a difference on a track saw? I understand the theory behind it but I've had more issues with the kerf closing when using a table saw rather than a track saw.

I used the TS 55 for 6-7 years and then the TSC for 4 years without a single issue. It was because of those 11 problem-less years that I decided 3 years ago to move on to the MT 55 and now recently the TSC/K. Three years in and ripping 4/4 & 6/4 maple & aromatic cedar with the MT 55 and I still haven't had an issue. Just lucky?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2022, 11:00 AM »
This looks 90% like an /eventual/ TS55 replacement to me:

Interesting is the motor seems to be arranged like an angle-grinder - resolving issues with motor overhanging the rails and interacting with rail attachments.

Definitely targeted the key TS55 complaints:
 - power (attack on MT55)
 - depth of cut (already mentioned)
 - compatibility with 165mm blades
 - compatibility with FSK rails

They payed with more weight, but that was likely inevitable given the brushless motor with more power.

Looks geared also for carpentry - covers both TS and HK55 use cases for many people.

Just from a glance, were I to buy a single saw for a one-man-shop or hobby use, this would be what I would want.

ADD
No riving knife, no deal.

I have a serious question, in the wild does it really make that much of a difference on a track saw? I understand the theory behind it but I've had more issues with the kerf closing when using a table saw rather than a track saw.

I used the TS 55 for 6-7 years and then the TSC for 4 years without a single issue. It was because of those 11 problem-less years that I decided 3 years ago to move on to the MT 55 and now recently the TSC/K. Three years in and ripping 4/4 & 6/4 maple & aromatic cedar with the MT 55 and I still haven't had an issue. Just lucky?
Yes it does.

The problem is that even when the saw does not kick, it damages the cut surface. When ripping a narrow-ish piece from a plank it commonly closes after only 30 centimeters - when there was accumulated tension.

We have Parkside saws without riving knifes and I would never consider them for ripping narrow pieces from a plank. With the TSC it is a non-issue as the knife is just 0.1mm narrower so the blade barely scratches the cut surface. For sheet goods there is no need indeed.

Forgot to mention, above is experience with softwood. I have not seen beech or oak with so much tension to cause a problem, they would crack instead long before that.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 11:14 AM by mino »
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Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5730
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2022, 12:08 PM »
Seems like a pretty nice portable and powerful hybrid to me, when you can’t own/bring a kapex/multiple saws.
But is corded truly portable? I bet we'll see a cordless version next year. It will make more sense with FSK, I think.

+1 [thumbs up]

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2452
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2022, 12:26 PM »
This looks 90% like an /eventual/ TS55 replacement to me:

Interesting is the motor seems to be arranged like an angle-grinder - resolving issues with motor overhanging the rails and interacting with rail attachments.

....

Just from a glance, were I to buy a single saw for a one-man-shop or hobby use, this would be what I would want.


I hadn't noticed the lack of the motor overhang; this is probably my one remaining gripe about the TSC/K. I recently got around this, for my use case, by buying a full set of Bench Dogs Quad Dogs and using whatever length needed to avoid interference.

Totally agree with your points and if I were in the market for a new saw I'd lean towards the TS60.

RMW
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Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 539
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2022, 01:35 PM »
I take back everything I said about the TS60. Think that just those few mm makes no difference? I jumped in with both feet, thinking "The number of times a TS55 doesn't cut deep enough only happens once or twice a year, and I can finish the cut using a Japanese saw as usual. If I need to cut much thicker material, I'll either use the shop bandsaw or out onsite - my P1CC with a 150mm or 200mm Bosch blade hung on the end of it''. Well - right enough 99.9% of the time, but today I was fitting new 38mm laminate countertops for a customer's kitchen makeover;

Customer - "Can you do me a waterfall on the end of the countertop run so that it folds over and then continues down to the floor?"

Me - "Sure I can ........" (knowing that these are always tricky because the 45-degree countertop bevels have to be super-square, super-accurate and super-clean, and the cheap laminate the customer had bought chips out alarmingly easily). 

But - the countertops weren't 38mm, were they? They were an oddball 43mm (which I've never, ever encountered before in over 300 kitchen jobs), and the TS55's 45-degree bevel cuts at maximum plunge weren't deep enough. Absolute nightmare. I fixed it and got it done, but it took forever. My TS55 is ancient, so when it's 'either spend some money or pay more tax' time at the end of the year, I'll be upgrading. I'll even modify the racking in my van to take the looney-tunes new Systainer3 size for it.



FWIW - I don't care about the lack of a riving knife either, the only kickback I ever had was caused by a combination of tiredness, complacency and my own stupidity. Even using saws with one, if I'm in any doubt whatsoever about the tail-end of a cut closing up on me, I'll always pop a wedge in there just to be sure. My humble apologies to Festool's design team for instantly dismissing their splendid new machine. I feel like a bit of a chump [crying]
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 06:30 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2022, 01:58 PM »
Metabo has already released saws which are cordless. The kt and ks. 6 1/2” blades. 2 3/8” on the rails. One is fs style and one is fsk style. Kt 18 66 bl   Ks 18 66 bl. Well competition is good.

Offline TomK_2

  • Posts: 90
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2022, 04:31 PM »
Ahhhh I just got my TSC 55 K at the end of last year and now this!  [blink]

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1652
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2022, 05:51 PM »
Just watched the entire "Quick Guide" series of 6 videos on the TS60K:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjhsKxIGMv5Ix0vtRV1U4-frdoDwfpaRE

Helps give a better feel for the size and features/functionality.  Similar-but-different quick-locks for the -1 and 47 degree bevels, similar anti-kickback disabling feature to the TSC55K.

I echo others who have said that a TSC 60 K might be the one I wait for, and then sell the HKC and TS 55's.

Who knows...

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2022, 07:35 PM »
No riving knife, no deal.

I have a serious question, in the wild does it really make that much of a difference on a track saw? I understand the theory behind it but I've had more issues with the kerf closing when using a table saw rather than a track saw.

I used the TS 55 for 6-7 years and then the TSC for 4 years without a single issue. It was because of those 11 problem-less years that I decided 3 years ago to move on to the MT 55 and now recently the TSC/K. Three years in and ripping 4/4 & 6/4 maple & aromatic cedar with the MT 55 and I still haven't had an issue. Just lucky?

What do you define as an issue?

I've never had problems with kickback. Kerf closing... more than enough. It's not about the kickback for me either, it's about the cut quality being ruined by the kerf closing on the rear of the blade and messing things up. No amount of electronics will prevent that. So these riving-knifeless saws... I see it as a big downgrade.

I wonder if some dipsh*t is gonna do the same on table saws. I hope not.

I see it also as a step down in inherent safety. Riving knifes can be removed... but that stupid switch braking off and getting hotwired... you know that's gonna happen...

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2022, 10:13 AM »
It's about time for a hybrid corded / cordless track saw. And I would like to know what testing has revealed that has justified omitting the riving knife. Almost every other feature is now in the TS 60 KEBQ so that the TS 55 models can be discontinued.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2022, 04:41 PM »
There is not gonna be a hybrid as it would massively add weight.

The omitting of the riving knife is just stupid, but all the hype at the moment. They can add the kickback detection on top if they want.

Offline Yardbird

  • Posts: 377
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2022, 05:34 PM »
Concerning a Hybrid saw:
Festool makes a 110/ battery hybrid with their FTSC 125 and RTSC and DTSC 400 sanders.  The set has a convertor that replaces the battery then plugs into 110v.  This is a different style battery than the normal Festool batteries, but  I have wondered why Festool has not marketed a convertor that allows the user to use 110v in their normal battery tools.  I know this is a step backwards, but would provide a definite backup when the batteries go bad.  But then I am from an era when a car's dimmer switch was in the floorboard. 

Online Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 2110
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2022, 06:57 PM »
But then I am from an era when a car's dimmer switch was in the floorboard.

Me too.
I really like my TS 55, but I do mostly sheet goods. I do have a TS75, but it comes out pretty rarely. I did just use it the other day to cut down a "butcher block" top that a customer brought to us from a local home center. They needed it ripped to width and 2 sections joined together for length. The TS75 is far better than trying to shove something like that over a tablesaw.
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Offline mino

  • Posts: 1210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2022, 08:06 PM »
Concerning a Hybrid saw:
Festool makes a 110/ battery hybrid with their FTSC 125 and RTSC and DTSC 400 sanders.
...
The small sanderes are in the 200 Watts range or threabouts. For such low current it is possible to get a converter in roughly the same space as the battery AND the power loss (heat) it generates is also manageable.

A TSC 55 pulls around 1500 Watts at full load ... that is an order of magnitude more. An adapter to handle the current would have to be about 10x the size of the sander adapters ... 5x at a minimum.

And for what? Only to not have to replace batteries - batteries which one needs to replace every hour or so - i.e. a non issue *for a tracksaw* which sees intermittent use. With the upcomming 8Ah bats this would make even less practical sense.

I can see wanting this on a pneumatic hammer. Or on an angle grinder. I.e. tools which see prolonged use under heavy load. But for an intermittent use tool like a tracksaw it just is not worth it. IMO.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2022, 09:26 PM »
I have a ton of miles behind the makita cordless track saw. Kick back has never been an issue. Nor has no riving  knife. Whether sheet goods or solids. The ts 55 and to a lesser extend the tsc 55 have suffered many more burned rips due to a lack of power.
That being said the clunky safety, inaccurate sticky guide rail adjustments and the fact at 45 the makita over cuts the guide  rail strip is too much for me. And the anti tip thing is over blown. Unless the rail is clamped down it’s useless. Furthermore the makita rails vary too much in width and ironically the only saw that can run on joined rails is the festool. Just my two cents.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline NiteWalkerGR

  • Posts: 99
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2022, 11:16 PM »
Me too.
I really like my TS 55, but I do mostly sheet goods. I do have a TS75, but it comes out pretty rarely. I did just use it the other day to cut down a "butcher block" top that a customer brought to us from a local home center. They needed it ripped to width and 2 sections joined together for length. The TS75 is far better than trying to shove something like that over a tablesaw.
The first job I did with my TS 55 F (and the treason I bought it) was to cut down some butcher block tops for a custom desk. I used the 28 tooth universal blade and the TS 55 handled it no problem. That thinner kerf really makes a difference. I thought I'd need a panther blade but the universal did just fine. And I concur; I'd not want to shove those tops over my tablesaw.

Online Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 2110
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2022, 06:33 PM »
I probably could have done it with the TS55. I have a ripping blade for it (CMT) and the pieces were "only" 2 inches thick, but since the TS75 is just sitting there and the Panther blade was still in it from last time, why not.

I actually just got a 28 tooth universal blade for my TS55 a couple of weeks ago. I have pretty much only used the standard 48 tooth or a zero rake triple-chip blade for cutting solid surface.
I had let one (48) get too dull and the back-up (48) was at the sharpener service. I knew I was going to need it the next day and wasn't willing to use one of the TCG blades, so I picked one up at the local dealer on the way home that night.
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Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2022, 07:14 PM »
I have a ton of miles behind the makita cordless track saw. Kick back has never been an issue. Nor has no riving  knife. Whether sheet goods or solids. The ts 55 and to a lesser extend the tsc 55 have suffered many more burned rips due to a lack of power.
That being said the clunky safety, inaccurate sticky guide rail adjustments and the fact at 45 the makita over cuts the guide  rail strip is too much for me. And the anti tip thing is over blown. Unless the rail is clamped down it’s useless. Furthermore the makita rails vary too much in width and ironically the only saw that can run on joined rails is the festool. Just my two cents.

I have a Festool rail that has a thinner ridge than all my other Festool rails  [wink]

Other saws can't run on joined rails? Why not? Huh? Maybe break the edges of other rails?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2022, 05:49 AM »
I have a Festool rail that has a thinner ridge than all my other Festool rails  [wink]

Other saws can't run on joined rails? Why not? Huh? Maybe break the edges of other rails?
The Makita rails have a similar variance in between them compared to the FS/2 series (checked on asample of 20 or so from different batches). The Makita manufacturing standard is mostly lower on the straightness only.

But it does not mean one cannot get a pair of absolutely straight and matching Makita rails.
And it does not mean one cannot get a set of Festool rails where the variance is such it is worse than a lucky set of the Makitas...

The difference is in the saw, though.

The adjusting slides used on the TS55 series are more "forgiving" as they have a bit of a play range where the force applied is sufficient to guide the saw yet also allows to accomodate slight rib width differences to work.
All the other saws like SP 6000 or TS75 do not have this and so are more sensitive to the rib width variance or have to be set a bit loose, affecting cut quality.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2022, 12:45 PM »
Yes. I agree. But my experience is this, of the 5 makita rails I have and the 5 festool rails I have the makitas vary more in thickness at the guide bar section. I find them all just as straight. The festools are stiffer.
For the record I am selling my cordless makita 2 boxes 2 batteries dust bag 55” rail $275.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5730
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2022, 12:53 PM »
Yes. I agree. But my experience is this, of the 5 makita rails I have and the 5 festool rails I have the makitas vary more in thickness at the guide bar section. I find them all just as straight. The festools are stiffer.
For the record I am selling my cordless makita 2 boxes 2 batteries dust bag 55” rail $275.

And using the Metabo?

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2022, 06:59 PM »
I have a Festool rail that has a thinner ridge than all my other Festool rails  [wink]

Other saws can't run on joined rails? Why not? Huh? Maybe break the edges of other rails?
The Makita rails have a similar variance in between them compared to the FS/2 series (checked on asample of 20 or so from different batches). The Makita manufacturing standard is mostly lower on the straightness only.

But it does not mean one cannot get a pair of absolutely straight and matching Makita rails.
And it does not mean one cannot get a set of Festool rails where the variance is such it is worse than a lucky set of the Makitas...

The difference is in the saw, though.

The adjusting slides used on the TS55 series are more "forgiving" as they have a bit of a play range where the force applied is sufficient to guide the saw yet also allows to accomodate slight rib width differences to work.
All the other saws like SP 6000 or TS75 do not have this and so are more sensitive to the rib width variance or have to be set a bit loose, affecting cut quality.

Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2022, 08:26 PM »
The metabo: has two separate hard plastic guides controlled by one knob. Not as good as the festool better than makita. What I like about the metabo is the one battery placement at the rear. The saw is not as wide and better balanced than the festool. I like having 2 saws. I just sold the old tsc 55 and bought the new one and i will do a comparison. I always felt the tsc 55 struggled with anything other than 3/4” ply. But the tsc 55 is a smooth machine with integrated Bluetooth batteries for dust collection when needed.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2022, 03:25 AM »
Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?
Nope. The partial slides were introduced with late TS55 and full ones with the R refresh. The TS75 was not updated yet.

This would require a new bottom plate, so probably it is such a slow seller Festool figured it not worth to update it just for this.

Also, the slides solved accuracy issues with the smaller saws (contact points were too close to each other) while the TS 75 never had this issue.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5730
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2022, 11:25 AM »
Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?
Nope. The partial slides were introduced with late TS55 and full ones with the R refresh. The TS75 was not updated yet.

This would require a new bottom plate, so probably it is such a slow seller Festool figured it not worth to update it just for this.

Also, the slides solved accuracy issues with the smaller saws (contact points were too close to each other) while the TS 75 never had this issue.

The old ATF 55 and 65 didn’t have that problem as the grove in the steel base is continuous and if you are careful the blade will be parallel to the cut line with only a couple of inches of engagement with the rail.

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 930
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2022, 01:18 PM »
This looks 90% like an /eventual/ TS55 replacement to me:

Interesting is the motor seems to be arranged like an angle-grinder - resolving issues with motor overhanging the rails and interacting with rail attachments.

Definitely targeted the key TS55 complaints:
 - power (attack on MT55)
 - depth of cut (already mentioned)
 - compatibility with 165mm blades
 - compatibility with FSK rails

They payed with more weight, but that was likely inevitable given the brushless motor with more power.

Looks geared also for carpentry - covers both TS and HK55 use cases for many people.

Just from a glance, were I to buy a single saw for a one-man-shop or hobby use, this would be what I would want.

Agreed, And I'll be buying one:)
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2022, 03:56 PM »
Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?
Nope. The partial slides were introduced with late TS55 and full ones with the R refresh. The TS75 was not updated yet.

This would require a new bottom plate, so probably it is such a slow seller Festool figured it not worth to update it just for this.

Also, the slides solved accuracy issues with the smaller saws (contact points were too close to each other) while the TS 75 never had this issue.

And the HK85? Does that have these "full slides"?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2022, 12:17 AM »
And the HK85? Does that have these "full slides"?
Apparently. In eKat the slides are the last part# in the HK 85 list.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2022, 12:20 PM »
My local Festool rep says that only the cordless TS 60 has been ordered for my country. I cannot find any reference to a cordless version, only the corded versions in the seven different, short Festool preview videos on YouTube as at Aug 2022.

Has anyone heard any reliable information about a corded version?

I presume that both a corded and cordless version will eventually replace the TS 55 models.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2022, 01:49 PM »
Don't count on it. The 55 is cheaper and lighter.

I've not seen anything about a cordless 60.

Offline jcrowe1950

  • Festool Dealer Affiliate
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    • Woodcraft Chattanooga, TN
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2022, 09:49 PM »
No riving knife, no deal.

I have a serious question, in the wild does it really make that much of a difference on a track saw? I understand the theory behind it but I've had more issues with the kerf closing when using a table saw rather than a track saw.

I used the TS 55 for 6-7 years and then the TSC for 4 years without a single issue. It was because of those 11 problem-less years that I decided 3 years ago to move on to the MT 55 and now recently the TSC/K. Three years in and ripping 4/4 & 6/4 maple & aromatic cedar with the MT 55 and I still haven't had an issue. Just lucky?

 Hey Cheese, et al,

      The new saw does address one issue I expected with the refresh of the TS 55, namely using a brushless motor in a corded saw. Using brushless or electronically commutated (EC) designs on cordless tools is a no brainer. The anti-kickback feature is a function of brushless motors that allow power interruption to quickly stop the blade rotation. Thus, the anti-kickback feature is a freebie. I am a little surprised that this saw weighs significantly more than the TS 55. Another plus is that the new saw should run a bit cooler and with less vibration than the brushed models. That's certainly more of an issue with sanders but still a win. This seems to be more of a TS 55 replacement to me. Also, since it will work with the FSK tracks, it could be a cross market saw. More than anything, in terms of competition, this would seem to be a competitor to the Mafell 55mm track saw. Sadly, in the NA market, who knows when we will see this puppy. What I'd like to see is a 75 or even an 85 version of this saw....
Festool Specialist at Woodcraft, Chattanooga, TN

Latest Festool purchase...Rotex 150.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2022, 05:05 AM »
The Operating Manual for the TS 60 KEBQ-Plus-FS lists the TS 60 KEB and states that is has no removable mains cable.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 05:24 AM by ToolCrazy »

Offline neeleman

  • Posts: 1288
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2022, 05:12 AM »
Nothing cordless at all.
Just a saw without a Plug-it cord and a fixed cord.
Festoolian since 1998.
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Offline mino

  • Posts: 1210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2022, 05:29 AM »
The Operating Manual for the TS 60 KEBQ-Plus-FS lists the TS 60 KEB and states that is has no removable mains cable.
Actually, you got it the wrong way round:
The new TS60 KEBQ, as well as all the TS 55 versions, are cordless. No cord on those as there was never a corded TS55 made.

The KEB you mention is the only corded tool from the whole lineup since the times of the ATF series.

[cool]
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2022, 05:49 AM »
This media information page shows a cord on the TS 60 KEBQ:



And there's no battery here:

« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 05:58 AM by ToolCrazy »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2022, 06:17 AM »
This media information page shows a cord on the TS 60 KEBQ:


And there's no battery here:
Mine was just pun on the word "cordless" which is a /technical/ misnomer.

The TS 60 KEBQ does not have a cord. The same as the TS 55 series do not.

The PlugIt cord is not part of the saw but a separate thing. Hence the saw is without the cord, hence it is cordless ... the same way an electric kettle being "cordless" does not imply it being battery-powered.
;)


This pun works atop today's English meaning of "cordless" being a misnomer that just stuck. Technically, the presense/not of a cord has nothing to do with the tool being battery-powered or not. There are battery powered tools with cords that go to the battery pack on the user's back etc. And there are mains-powered fixed tools which do not use cord but fixed power cables.

Since you got caught in this termitology thing, I found it a good opportunity to take a shot at this ambiguity.

So, to get serious:
The TS60 K is, in all versions, a mains-powered tool.
The TS60 KEBQ does not have a cord and uses the PlugIt removable cord system
The TS60 KEB has a cord

There is no TSC 60 being announced thus far and no battery-powered TS* 60 series is known to exist or to be planned. Of course, it cannot be ruled out in the future. E.g. the new 8Ah battery packs peak current capability would allow for a stronger-than-TSC-55 saw to be made.

That said, I would expect Festool first to get some real-life data from the TS60 used in the wild before releasing a battery-powered version. The TS 60 seems to have a completely new mechanical configuration, so there will be new wear angles yet to be uncovered. I would expect Festool to bring the TS 60 series gearbox to the cordless world (sic) only a couple years later, once the mechanics are well-proven and any possible lessons can be learned.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 12:52 PM by mino »
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2022, 12:03 PM »
Except that I don't see any reference to a TS 60 FEBQ (I think you meant K not F) - only the following mains powered (aka "not battery powered"  [wink]) packages:
  • TS 60 KEBQ-Plus
  • TS 60 KEBQ-Plus-FS
K = series/generation of saw
E = intelligent MMC electronics, variable speed and speed maintained under load (EC-TEC brushless motor)
B = quick-acting brake system for safe operation
Q = Plug-It lead system
Plus = supplied in a Systainer
FS = supplied with a 1400mm guide rail

So there's only one TS 60 saw listed, which has a Plug-it cord. Yet I understood my local Festool rep to say that only battery powered versions have been ordered, arriving Jan '23.

I still think the concept of a hybrid mains/battery version would make sense, with a mains adapter that attaches to the saw in place of the two batteries, like the DTSC, ETSC and RTSC sanders which have the option of a "Mains adapter ACA 220-240/18V Ergo" that weighs in at 0.30kg.



Just for fun, I'm going to speculate what a TSC 60 hybrid (hypothetical product for now...) may weigh in at....The product weights of different models are:
  • TS 55 FEBQ (mains powered) = 4.3kg
  • TSC 55 KEBI (battery powered) = 3.6kg + (2 x 0.7kg) for standard 5.2Ah batteries = 4.8kg
  • TS 60 KEBQ (mains powered) = 4.8kg
  • TS 75 KEBQ (mains powered) = 5.7kg

The EC-TEC brushless motor on the battery-power TSC 55 may account for the 0.7kg lighter weight than the mains-powered TS 55.

However, the mains-powered, 1600W, EC-TEC brushless-motored TS 60 is strangely 0.5kg heavier than the brushed-motor TS55 and a whopping 1.2kg heavier than the battery-powered TSC 55 (sans batteries) - perhaps due to the blade, riving knife/anti-kick-back and a few other changes.

A hybrid mains adapter for a saw would draw way more current than a sander, so perhaps the adapter weighs 1.0 - 1.4kg (the weight of two standard 5.2Ah batteries, or 3 - 4 time the weight of the sander mains adapter).

So a hybrid mains/battery-powered TSC 60 (hypothetical product for now...) could weigh 6.2kg with two standard 5.2Ah batteries or with the hybrid mains adapter connected. That's more than the TS 75, but I'm sure the smart engineers could put that on a diet, but they'd have to trim off 1.2kg to get it to 5.0kg, which is a manageable weight I could live with for the versatility.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 07:24 AM by ToolCrazy »

Offline woodferret

  • Posts: 225
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2022, 01:58 PM »
It's not the weight... It's the heat.  Think of your PC power supply size and dissipation given that it's probably sub 500W.

Offline ModBjnry

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2022, 07:31 AM »
I can see this being a bit of a wunder-tool for my work. I often have to trim 56mm doors and occasionally cut trim for new door installs. Not having to lug a mitre saw around due to the cross cut rail would be great.

I’m just disappointed that they’re not offering a 36v cordless version.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2022, 02:46 PM »
It's not the weight... It's the heat.  Think of your PC power supply size and dissipation given that it's probably sub 500W.

Depending on what exact ATX spec it adheres to, it has to supply 3-5 voltage (+12, +5, +3.3, -12, -5) + a standby +5V, all with much tighter tolerances (+/-5%, regardless of load). An 18V adapter for tools like this can easily be just fine supplying 21V at no-load and sag to 16V under load, or 18.5V +/- 13.5%

And PC power supplies do this very very efficient. However, this comes at the cost of size and weight. But 18V batteries generate heat too when giving up their charge at a rapid pace. Discharge a 4Ah battery in <15 minutes and it will have to cool down before you can charge it.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2022, 04:24 PM »
It's not the weight... It's the heat.  Think of your PC power supply size and dissipation given that it's probably sub 500W.

Depending on what exact ATX spec it adheres to, it has to supply 3-5 voltage (+12, +5, +3.3, -12, -5) + a standby +5V, all with much tighter tolerances (+/-5%, regardless of load). An 18V adapter for tools like this can easily be just fine supplying 21V at no-load and sag to 16V under load, or 18.5V +/- 13.5%

And PC power supplies do this very very efficient. However, this comes at the cost of size and weight. But 18V batteries generate heat too when giving up their charge at a rapid pace. Discharge a 4Ah battery in <15 minutes and it will have to cool down before you can charge it.
Even looking at 95% efficiency, which is about as much as one can achieve for such, you are looking at dissipating about 50-100 watts which is no fun. Besides, there is a reason a 90% efficiency 1500W PC PSU - with almost no size constraints - goes $200.

I am not sure many people would be willing to pay $400+ for a mains adapter. Especially now that 8Ah packs will be around to take care of heavy work.

You make a good point with the bats - you swap them when hot. Not sure "swapping" the power adapter would be seen as acceptable. Heh.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2022, 06:55 PM »
The heat in the battery during rapid discharge means it's not 100% either.

5% loss is not dissipating 50-100W; that would assume 1-2 kW power. Even the Bosch 1800W claim is not that the 18V battery supplies 1800W, but that in combination with certain machines it gives "equal" performance with a 1800W wired tool.

Eg their 18V vac is only 270W. That probably does better than a 500W mains powered vac, but it's not 500W.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2022, 04:54 PM »
The heat in the battery during rapid discharge means it's not 100% either.

5% loss is not dissipating 50-100W; that would assume 1-2 kW power. Even the Bosch 1800W claim is not that the 18V battery supplies 1800W, but that in combination with certain machines it gives "equal" performance with a 1800W wired tool.

Eg their 18V vac is only 270W. That probably does better than a 500W mains powered vac, but it's not 500W.
A quality 10-cell 18650 pak like Festool's gives about 10C sustained, 15-20C peak. So about 600W at 20V (1000W+ peak). Of course whether such us pulled by the tool is another. But my TSC 55 sure takes all the current the bats got. No sandbagging there.

Also, the TSC55 casually operates around that ballpark in practice - i.e. about 1200W sustained output. With the same blade it has slightly more power than a standard brushed 1200W saw I use along it.
There are some losses from the low voltage compared to 230V AC, and the "combining" of the two bats as sources, so I figure what it gains from being brushless are just about enough to make it a wash against a brushed 230V tool on efficiency. It may be 1100W or 1400W pulled when measured at the batteries, but surely not below 1000W.

Point being, if you want to make an adapter that can provide power comparable to a TSC55, you need something that can provide about 1500W peak, 1200W sustained aka 80A @18V. And that thing will weght some and will need to dissipate about 50-60W at the best of cases. Can be done with a fan.

Either way it is a moot point.
Festool does not have a 36/40V pack option that would be a must for this to be applicable. And the new 8Ah packs can provide up to 1000W sustained per pack, so I can see Festool beefing up any TSC55 "new version" to take advantage of that instead of going with another 40V-ish platform just for the saws.


I agree on the vacs though. These are heavily toned down due to their typical duty cycle.

They (would) run just fine from the small 3.1Ah 5-cell bats while at it. So there a "low power" adapter may work out. It may even be worth it specifically for the vacs use case and any bulk would be a non-issue.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2022, 08:08 PM »
The gain in motor efficiency is way more than the few extra losses in wiring.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2022, 10:34 AM »
There's a new video that shows some of the upcoming TS60 K features, plus a few nifty things that the earlier videos don't show. The history of the Festo track saws and video of the new factory built to manufacture these are great too. It's in German, but the English sub-titles are very good:



Enjoy!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 11:23 AM by ToolCrazy »

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Online GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 2210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2022, 10:54 AM »
Here's the video from the previous post:

The full URL (youtube.com) and not the shortened URL (youtu.be) needs to be used in order for the video to load properly on the forum.
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2022, 11:23 AM »
Thanks! Learn something every day  [tongue]

Offline cptcolo

  • Posts: 1
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2022, 12:42 AM »
1500W brushless (vs 1200W brushed) so AT LEAST 25% more power. Brushless can be 10-15% more efficient so adding up it could have like 40% more power.
62mm depth (vs 50mm) so 25% more capacity
4.8kg (vs 4.3kg) so 12% heavier
6800 max rpm (vs 5800), 17% more
FSK rail compatibility
Anti-kickback like the TSC K
Improved depth adjustment(?)
~27% higher MSRP(?)

Seems like a pretty nice portable and powerful hybrid to me, when you can’t own/bring a kapex/multiple saws.

I have the corded TS55 and have long thought about getting the cordless version of the TS55. This thing looks awesome. If they make a cordless TS60, which I am sure they will... I am in for sure

Offline sirhc

  • Posts: 15
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2022, 03:12 AM »
I wonder why they updated the TS 55 with a thinner blade only last year and launch this new TS 60 soon after. Is here any room for a TS 55 next to a TS 60? Any special field/points the TS 55 could be more suitable to use compared to the TS 60 other than cost?

Online Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 2110
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2022, 08:02 AM »
My only real question is "Available in the US?"
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation/Plate
MFT clamps set
Installers set
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Socket/Ratchet set

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2022, 09:55 AM »
I wonder why they updated the TS 55 with a thinner blade only last year and launch this new TS 60 soon after. Is here any room for a TS 55 next to a TS 60? Any special field/points the TS 55 could be more suitable to use compared to the TS 60 other than cost?

Sure. Lower weight, smaller size, lower price, riving knife.

Online Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 2110
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2022, 10:47 AM »
I'm still on the fence about the TS. The one I have is the older corded model and I have thought about upgrading to the newer thinner bladed one, but stuck between corded and cordless. I'm not already in the battery platform, so analysis paralysis has set in.
I can probably sell my old one to the boss, for general shop use, but I have so many blades that it doesn't thrill me to have to start over there.
That's why I'm thinking a TS60 would be good. Keep the one I have for the sheet goods that I use it for now and the TS60 for heavier cuts that don't require the bigboy TS75. That TS75 only comes out about once a month, but it sure is handy, when I need it.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation/Plate
MFT clamps set
Installers set
Centrotech organizer set
Socket/Ratchet set

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1652
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2022, 04:34 PM »
I have a corded TS55 simply from the perspective of "a brushed motor with a mains connector has fewer points of failure and should still be serviceable in 20-30 years to pass down to a child or other progeny".

I bought an HK55 and HKC55 from Recon back in 2020 (completely missing the "all sales are final" warning) and still need to sell off the HK55; the HKC55 is so much more convenient for what I use it for (dimensional lumber and demo work), and I think I only ever powered up the HK55 to make sure it worked.

If I got a TS60, I would probably hold out for a TSC60 but keep my TS55 for the "corded and brushed" reasons above.  It's definitely helped ward off temptation to get the TSC55K...

Offline woodferret

  • Posts: 225
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2022, 09:18 PM »
I wonder why they updated the TS 55 with a thinner blade only last year and launch this new TS 60 soon after. Is here any room for a TS 55 next to a TS 60? Any special field/points the TS 55 could be more suitable to use compared to the TS 60 other than cost?

Probably production reasons for the blades.  EOL stock is easier to model based on existing units and obselence rates.  They can do one hurrah push for the 2.2mm blades, warehouse them, and switch the tooling line for newer 168mm blade.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1210
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2022, 12:35 AM »
I wonder why they updated the TS 55 with a thinner blade only last year and launch this new TS 60 soon after. Is here any room for a TS 55 next to a TS 60? Any special field/points the TS 55 could be more suitable to use compared to the TS 60 other than cost?

Probably production reasons for the blades.  EOL stock is easier to model based on existing units and obselence rates.  They can do one hurrah push for the 2.2mm blades, warehouse them, and switch the tooling line for newer 168mm blade.
There is definitely the room for a light&nimble TS55 to go along a more heavy-duty TS60.

I would be more concerned for the TS75. IMO the only thing really keeping it around is the lack of a 110V HK85 version which will likely have some reason - like the inability to fit a 20A@110V motor into the chassis.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline jafo09

  • Posts: 1
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #71 on: October 20, 2022, 06:19 PM »
hi all, just fyi, i received a note from Festool indicating they won't be bringing it to the NorAm market. [crying]

Here's the exact wording:

Thank you for contacting Festool. The TS60 is not available for purchase in the North American Market. Festool is a German company with world-wide distribution, not all tools and accessories are available in every market. The TS60 is not available in this market and at this time Festool has not announced any future plans to bring this tool to market.

Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2022, 01:33 AM »
hi all, just fyi, i received a note from Festool indicating they won't be bringing it to the NorAm market. [crying]

Here's the exact wording:

Thank you for contacting Festool. The TS60 is not available for purchase in the North American Market. Festool is a German company with world-wide distribution, not all tools and accessories are available in every market. The TS60 is not available in this market and at this time Festool has not announced any future plans to bring this tool to market.

Fine with me, but If they would only get the TS-75 to market things would sure be nice. Some of us don't want to have both and "Pull out the big boy once a month." Some of us would rather have one saw that does everything thick and thin. I get that it's sort of the idea behind the TS 60, but even it is not big enough, and I don't care about the electronics, I want a riving knife like the TS-75 has.

Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2022, 01:59 AM »
hi all, just fyi, i received a note from Festool indicating they won't be bringing it to the NorAm market. [crying]

Here's the exact wording:

Thank you for contacting Festool. The TS60 is not available for purchase in the North American Market. Festool is a German company with world-wide distribution, not all tools and accessories are available in every market. The TS60 is not available in this market and at this time Festool has not announced any future plans to bring this tool to market.

Surely not - that would be insanity. The UK website currently only lists the 230v version, whereas all of the other tools are listed in both 230v and 110v - because 110v is mandatory on construction sites over here. The lack of a 110v version would not only eliminate a potentially vast number of NA sales, but would also make it a non-starter for the thousands of guys over here doing site work. It must be in the pipeline somewhere.

Mustn’t it?  [unsure]

Offline simnick

  • Posts: 66
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2022, 02:14 AM »
I'm disappointed to hear they might not bring this to the NA market. It seemed to check all the boxes I might need in a saw (I don't want cordless, I normally work in my shop).

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2022, 05:15 AM »
It's what you get when you persist in using something (110V) unseen in the other 95% of the world. And lots of universal 100-240V stuff could have been made slightly cheaper if it was only 230

So you use split-phase 110V on UK building sites. Has it saved any lives? And how many extra died because they used the wrong tool because the right tool wasn't available in 110V?

Offline petar73

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2022, 06:51 AM »
I would rather use cordless than 110v and transformer on site.

Offline squall_line

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2022, 09:46 AM »
"Festool has not announced any future plans to bring this tool to market" =/= (or !=, or ≠) "Festool has no plans to bring this tool to market."

Since they don't officially have a 110v version of this tool yet, there is no benefit to announcing plans to "some day" release one, especially for a company like Festool with such a small market share in North America.

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 539
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2022, 12:33 PM »
It's what you get when you persist in using something (110V) unseen in the other 95% of the world.

Maybe so - but 380 million people in the US and Canada isn’t exactly a tiny, minority marketplace. I really hope there will be a 110v version for our friends over the pond.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2022, 03:10 PM »
It's what you get when you persist in using something (110V) unseen in the other 95% of the world.

Maybe so - but 380 million people in the US and Canada isn’t exactly a tiny, minority marketplace. I really hope there will be a 110v version for our friends over the pond.

For a European company that is definitely a minority of the market.

Offline greg mann

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #80 on: October 21, 2022, 05:04 PM »
If they ever do come out with a tsc60 there would be little reason not to bring it to NA. With the market penetration cordless tools are making it may not ever make sense to do a 110v version.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 539
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #81 on: October 21, 2022, 05:13 PM »
For a European company that is definitely a minority of the market.

Really?

Europe has a population of around 750 million. The population of NA is more than half of that. 51% is an awfully big 'minority'.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #82 on: October 21, 2022, 05:24 PM »
According to Wiki, there are 592 million people in NA.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America

That seems like a pretty large opportunity.   [blink]

Online Crazyraceguy

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #83 on: October 21, 2022, 06:17 PM »
Especially when you factor in the job-site guys in the UK, they are stuck using 110v too.
The plugs may not be the same, but the motors can't be that much different?
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Offline Coen

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #84 on: October 21, 2022, 08:10 PM »
For a European company that is definitely a minority of the market.

Really?

Europe has a population of around 750 million. The population of NA is more than half of that. 51% is an awfully big 'minority'.

Yes really. Note I specifically said 'European company'. My guesstimate is that Festool has a lower market share in the USA anyway.

Besides that... if you are counting population; -even excluding Europe- people living in 110V area are a small minority.

Online Crazyraceguy

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #85 on: October 22, 2022, 07:07 AM »
The rep that put on the "Festool Experience" told me that Festool has less than 1000 dealers in the US market.
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Offline woodbutcherbower

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #86 on: November 01, 2022, 07:05 PM »
My new pre-ordered TS60 shipped and arrived a few days ago. It's a truly lovely saw with some great features - and my reasons for purchasing it are explained earlier in the thread. But here's the thing - I'm a professional woodworker, working in an environment where every cent matters. My faithful old TS55 has been wearing aftermarket blades since forever, to the extent that I now have around 20 of them in a constant cycle of being used or being resharpened. Offshore manufacturing has meant that I can buy a brand-new 48T blade for $15 = only $3 more than it costs me to get an old one resharpened - but I continue to take the latter option because I care about the planet and its finite resources. Throwing blunt sawblades in the trash isn't an option for me, and these offshore blades perform identically to OEM ones. There's absolutely zero difference, so I'll continue to do the right thing morally and environmentally.

But since the TS60 is a new machine, there are no 168mm x 20mm x 1.8mm blades available for it just yet, apart from OEM ones - and Festool are charging $115 a pop. I totally get that they're a premium manufacturer etc etc etc etc ...... but they're charging that price because right now - they can. It's 100% the power tool equivalent of the inkjet printer scam, where you can go buy a beautiful new fully-loaded printer for $99, but then be forced to pay $49 every time you need new ink cartridges. The printer software knows when you try and use an aftermarket or refilled cartridge, and it won't allow you to print. The level and scale of the work I do means that I can wear out the teeth on a blade in a week.

So my beautiful new 168mm saw will stay in its loony-tunes-sized Systainer 3 until it's actually needed once in a blue moon for a job like the one I highlighted earlier in the thread. My TS55 will continue as the go-to daily saw because commercially - I can't justify any other route.

What a terrible shame.



« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 07:16 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline mino

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #87 on: November 02, 2022, 08:32 AM »
..snip..
But since the TS60 is a new machine, there are no 168mm x 20mm x 1.8mm blades available for it just yet, apart from OEM ones - and Festool are charging $115 a pop. I totally get that they're a premium manufacturer etc etc etc etc ...... but they're charging that price because right now - they can. It's 100% the power tool equivalent of the inkjet printer scam, where you can go buy a beautiful new fully-loaded printer for $99, but then be forced to pay $49 every time you need new ink cartridges.
..snip..
Sorry. You are wrong here.

Festool is chargin what they are charging because IT COSTS THEM about as much to (have) manufactured these blades /plus R&D plus shipping etc./.

Last I remember these were Leitz-made. Or some other same-level maker. Basically the best quality stuff one can get.

And no, $20 blades in 2.2/1.6 mm are not "the same" as 1.8/1.2. There is a world of difference there. If you had the equipment to test them, you will find out pretty fast. Starting with the disc steel material, ending with blade geometry precision (more so after a lot of use).

This is no "defense" of Festool being cheap. They are expensive, Leitz-expensive. Just more available.

I also buy blades from a local blade maker. And guess what ? This is a reputable company (like 100+yrs old) so they DO NOT make 1.8/1.2mm blades. Their normal blades are 2.8/1.8 or 2.5/1.8 and they have a special "Festool" range at 2.2/1.6, which suits me. That is about it.

Their blades would be "offshore" to you, but still is a traditional company so $40 ($30 sans taxes) for a 160mm 2.2/1.6 blade it is. No way they can makde those blades $20 (with taxes) at the same quality. Compared to the Makita blades I made a mistake to buy twice, they are like a Mercedes to a Daewoo car.

The demand is there for sure - they actually started to stock the CMT 1.7/1.1 mm blades to cover the thin-blades demand on their eshop. I got one of those for a tracksaw without a riving knife. Bad idea. That $40 thin blade is unusable for anything but thin plywood. It just wobbles too much in non-homogenous material.


So I asked for thinner blades /from them/ and got told this:
"We would need special steel for the thin-disc blades. Also neew fancy equipment to handle such steel at our plant." And guess what ? They do not have such equipment - and do not plan to as their bread and butter is in industrial blades. This means they could not make blades with the required behavior so they rather not make them.


Above aside, I see no reason why the TS60 K could not handle the 160mm 2.2/1.6 mm blades from the older TS55 series. The arbor is the same and there is no riving knife. So safety is not /directly/ affected. The 2.2/1.6 blade is a little heavier, but has a lower diameter, so the forces the saw would face are mostly equivalent.

Putting my math hat on:
(1.6*160^3)/(1.2*168^3) = 1.152 => about 15% more rotational momentum from a 160/1.6mm blade versus a 168/1.2mm blade. This sounds within sensible limits as far as shaft loads go.


Would me similar like me (ab)using a 350/3.2 mm (disc) Leitz industrial blade (€500 a pop!) in my Protool CSP 145E which officially takes a 380/2.6 mm (disc) ripping blade only.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline guybo

  • Posts: 452
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2022, 08:55 AM »
Hi, the mafell kss50 uses that blade also this place makes themhttps://proformtooling.co.uk/index.php/product/stehle-saw-blades-to-fit-mafell-kss50-machines/

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2022, 01:51 PM »
Putting my math hat on:
(1.6*160^3)/(1.2*168^3) = 1.152 => about 15% more rotational momentum from a 160/1.6mm blade versus a 168/1.2mm blade. This sounds within sensible limits as far as shaft loads go.

Weight distribution is not homogeneous and with the thinner blade probably relatively more at the edge. So for the rotational momentum the smaller blade is easier.

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 539
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2022, 04:24 PM »
@guybo Thanks mate. I tried a couple of Stehle blades for my TS55, but I hated them. The edge goes off them so, so quickly. The same happened with the Freud ones I tried - which was strange, because their 305mm x 100-tooth blades which I use on my DWS780 are fabulous. The cheap Trend ones referred to in my post above (irrespective of what Mr. Coen says) are absolutely stellar for the ridiculously low price. So the steel isn't as fancy and they're not polished with unicorn tears. Maybe so - but after 32 years on the tools as a pro, I know exactly when an aftermarket blade is doing an identical job to OEM and when it's not.

Edit = and oh, putting a 160mm blade on a TS60 somewhat defeats the object of buying a saw with a deeper cut, don't you think?

Best wishes
Kevin
« Last Edit: November 02, 2022, 04:33 PM by woodbutcherbower »

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Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1344
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2022, 05:00 PM »
Why isn’t anyone thinking of 165mm blades?
In Europe it’s almost everywhere with nearly any manufacturer.

You loose 1,5mm depth.
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Online Crazyraceguy

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2022, 05:22 PM »
I don't go through blades anyway near the rate that @woodbutcherbower does, but all of my spares are either actual Festool or Leitz. We have a Leitz rep that comes into the shop every week though, so it is really handy. It takes 2 weeks to get them back, so I have to keep a couple of good ones on hand at all times. I switch back and forth between the 48 tooth ATB and a triple-chip (TCG) for cutting solid surface.
The only "aftermarket" blade I have is the ripping blade for the TS75. It was all they had at the local dealer when I needed one quickly. It seems to work fine, but I have never tried the actual Panther one.
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Offline kifi

  • Posts: 41
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2022, 03:41 PM »
I take back everything I said about the TS60. Think that just those few mm makes no difference? I jumped in with both feet, thinking "The number of times a TS55 doesn't cut deep enough only happens once or twice a year, and I can finish the cut using a Japanese saw as usual. If I need to cut much thicker material, I'll either use the shop bandsaw or out onsite - my P1CC with a 150mm or 200mm Bosch blade hung on the end of it''. Well - right enough 99.9% of the time, but today I was fitting new 38mm laminate countertops for a customer's kitchen makeover;

Customer - "Can you do me a waterfall on the end of the countertop run so that it folds over and then continues down to the floor?"

Me - "Sure I can ........" (knowing that these are always tricky because the 45-degree countertop bevels have to be super-square, super-accurate and super-clean, and the cheap laminate the customer had bought chips out alarmingly easily). 

But - the countertops weren't 38mm, were they? They were an oddball 43mm (which I've never, ever encountered before in over 300 kitchen jobs), and the TS55's 45-degree bevel cuts at maximum plunge weren't deep enough. Absolute nightmare. I fixed it and got it done, but it took forever. My TS55 is ancient, so when it's 'either spend some money or pay more tax' time at the end of the year, I'll be upgrading. I'll even modify the racking in my van to take the looney-tunes new Systainer3 size for it.

(Attachment Link)

FWIW - I don't care about the lack of a riving knife either, the only kickback I ever had was caused by a combination of tiredness, complacency and my own stupidity. Even using saws with one, if I'm in any doubt whatsoever about the tail-end of a cut closing up on me, I'll always pop a wedge in there just to be sure. My humble apologies to Festool's design team for instantly dismissing their splendid new machine. I feel like a bit of a chump [crying]

That waterfall edge is impressive. Aside from the saw limitations, How do you achieve such a nice edge? I’m sure it’s more than “set bevel to 45 and with a sharp blade, cut!” ?

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 539
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2022, 06:12 PM »
@kifi Thankyou. But there's no magic. As you say - a sharp (preferably new) blade, set bevel to 45, and cut the horizontal piece slowly in one pass, with your guide rail set at bang-on 90 degrees using a TSO GRS-16 guide rail square. Since the other end of this piece was going to have a butt & scribe joint, this bevel cut was done first, the piece of worktop was then cut to length before the far end was routed into a masons mitre with a jig, including the three 'dogbone' apertures underneath for the butterfly jointing bolts. I use an OF2200 with a 30mm guide bush, a Unika jig, and a 12.7mm x 50.8mm half-inch cutter - a new one for every joint since laminate blunts cutters very quickly. The sharpest cutters give the tightest, most invisible joints.

The vertical bevel cut was done next - using the offcut end of the worktop I'd just bevelled. This provided the closest possible match to the grain pattern on the laminate. Similarly - the bevel cut was done first, the piece was then measured accurately and cut to the correct height. To align the two halves of the joint, each bevel cut was then splined using a Makita plate jointer set at 45 degrees - six biscuits for the joint at approximately 75mm intervals.

The vertical section was then clamped accurately and fixed to the outside of the cabinet by screwing through from the inside of the cabinet. Both bevel faces were flooded with Titebond II, and the horizontal piece was then placed on the cabinet top, and tapped across towards the vertical bevel using a rubber mallet until the joint splines locked together. The tiny gap between the upper edges of the joint were filled using a colour-matched Unika Colorfill compound and 'wiped' to invisibility using acetone whilst it was still wet. Once set, the horizontal section of worktop was screwed to the cabinet top from underneath, and the far-end masons mitre joint was then bolted up.

Sounds complex but wasn't. It's a just a process to be done in a certain order. Hope that helps.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2022, 06:23 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline kifi

  • Posts: 41
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2022, 06:32 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. Much appreciated

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2022, 08:16 PM »
Yes, very thorough, but what is a “mason’s mitre”?

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2022, 09:14 PM »
Yes, very thorough, but what is a “mason’s mitre”?

45º miter at the front edge into a straight cut.

Normally cut with a router and template.

Tom
« Last Edit: November 10, 2022, 09:17 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #98 on: November 11, 2022, 01:43 PM »
I still wonder about those... what happens when you bump into that edge with a heavy pot? Won't crack? And if creating this costs you multiple cutters... why even do it with cheap laminate?

Of if you just walk into it... must be painful. It looks like a rather sharp edge.
I once hit my head on a countertop edge during my way down when I lost consciousness... I am rather happy it wasn't such an edge  [tongue]

Yes, very thorough, but what is a “mason’s mitre”?

Also see Festool #204219

Offline Oilers

  • Posts: 21
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2022, 09:54 PM »
Has anyone actually had their hands on one of these yet?

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 539
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2022, 10:17 PM »
Has anyone actually had their hands on one of these yet?

I’ve had mine for two weeks. It’s a truly lovely saw with several advantages over the TS55 - such as the fact that you can lay it on its side whilst changing the blade. All I need now are sensibly-priced aftermarket blades.

Offline simonh

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #101 on: November 15, 2022, 03:39 AM »
I had a play with one at a woodworking show last weekend.  I only used it on the crosscut rail, but it felt like a nice machine with plenty of power. A little plasticky compared to my Mafell. I think if I was in the market for a new track saw I'd jump for it as a nice middle ground does it all.
-Simon

Offline Havwoods Accessories Ltd

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #102 on: November 15, 2022, 04:54 AM »
Has anyone actually had their hands on one of these yet?
its been a while but ive wandered back on here..

Yes i've had access to one for a while, I'd say at first i couldn't figure its place in the lineup.
After a few days of use its my go to track saw. Hard to say exactly why but its just simply so smooth and powerful.
Done side to side comparison with TS55 F and its Noticeably quicker.
Balance is brilliant but the thing i love is the actual drop action itself, so smooth and easy. Big Thumbs up from me.👍

Ive been meaning to do a Youtube on it but running out of hours in the day...🙄

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Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #103 on: November 15, 2022, 11:31 AM »
Now all they need to do is make one with a riving knife  [tongue]

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 539
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #104 on: November 15, 2022, 01:27 PM »
Now all they need to do is make one with a riving knife  [tongue]

Literally the first thing I did was to take the new saw out of its case and test the anti-kickback function. It's superb, and is triggered by the slightest upwards lift. I was also initially dubious, but it convinced me in 10 seconds flat.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2515
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #105 on: November 16, 2022, 12:20 AM »
Now all they need to do is make one with a riving knife  [tongue]
Literally the first thing I did was to take the new saw out of its case and test the anti-kickback function. It's superb, and is triggered by the slightest upwards lift. I was also initially dubious, but it convinced me in 10 seconds flat.
It's not just that. No riving knife = gouging the surface of the cut when the kerf closes.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #106 on: November 16, 2022, 11:19 AM »
Now all they need to do is make one with a riving knife  [tongue]

Literally the first thing I did was to take the new saw out of its case and test the anti-kickback function. It's superb, and is triggered by the slightest upwards lift. I was also initially dubious, but it convinced me in 10 seconds flat.

I don't give a flying [...] about the anti-kickback. I want that on my drills, but Festool doesn't offer it there. The riving knife prevents the cut from closing on the back of the saw and thus prevents horrible cut quality in that case. Something the sensor can't do anything about.

It's like taking out the flares from a fighter jet and adding a better cushion in the ejector seat....

Offline squall_line

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #107 on: November 16, 2022, 11:40 AM »
the anti-kickback. I want that on my drills, but Festool doesn't offer it there.

I thought the TPC and TDC had anti-kickback now?

I agree with the rest of the statement about the riving knife with regards to affecting cut quality.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #108 on: November 16, 2022, 12:42 PM »
the anti-kickback. I want that on my drills, but Festool doesn't offer it there.

I thought the TPC and TDC had anti-kickback now?


I stand corrected. But by that time my Bosch was already past it's return window.