Author Topic: Festool TS60 K ?  (Read 11595 times)

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Offline leftistelf

  • Posts: 57
Festool TS60 K ?
« on: July 12, 2022, 05:24 AM »
Seems like Festool posted a video of a new saws today… anyone have any details?




Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline figle

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2022, 05:35 AM »
I've seen it on Festool's website. Looks like 5mm deeper cut than the 55, new narrower blades and the ability to use the FSK rails.

I'm kind of thinking heavily now how it compares to TSC55 I got a week ago, especially the FSK rail option. I'd argue using FSK rails would be more suited for a cordless saw. Nonetheless, I wonder how different is the foot on the TS60 compared to say TSC55 and if in theory Festool could provide it as an option for the other saws?

Offline JINRO

  • Posts: 142
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2022, 07:58 AM »
I'm guessing this is for cuts between 55 and 75 but uses thinner blade? Owning both 55 and 75, I need to justify myself not to buy this one :p

Online woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 438
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2022, 08:36 AM »
What a strange product. It's a TS55 which cuts only 5mm deeper.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the point, and who exactly is this tool aimed at? It's like them bringing out a CT27, CT37 and CT49 which will all run in parallel with the existing range. If they'd updated and replaced the TS55 with this, I'd completely understand - but two saws in the range whose capacities are only a whisker apart?

It also has a UK list price approaching £700 - that's 27% more than a TS55, and only £100 less than a TS75. Thanks - but I'll pass.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 08:49 AM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline JINRO

  • Posts: 142
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2022, 08:54 AM »
What a strange product. It's a TS55 which cuts only 5mm deeper.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the point, and who exactly is this tool aimed at? It's like them bringing out a CT27, CT37 and CT49 which will all run in parallel with the existing range. If they'd updated and replaced the TS55 with this, I'd completely understand - but two saws in the range whose capacities are only a whisker apart?

It also has a UK list price approaching £700 - that's 27% more than a TS55, and only £100 less than a TS75. Thanks - but I'll pass.

I'm beginning to wonder too after reading your thoughts.  There is no merit unless it's incorporated with some new features. Updated TS55 was also not much upgrade from the original. I was expecting incorporated LCD/LED screen which I saw somewhere in FOG. But since appearance looks similar to it's predecessor doesn't seem to assert any outstanding new features.

Offline figle

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2022, 10:03 AM »
Just talked to Festool rep. There's also blade cut markings on the other side of the foot, upgraded depth scale setting (same arrow type as in angle setting). Yes, nothing major.

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1498
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2022, 10:21 AM »


https://www.festool.com/products/sawing/circular-saws/576721---ts-60-kebq-plus

A few thoughts:

It has a front handle similar to the HK/HKC.

It can use the FSK rails like the HK/HKC.

The ability to use it on FSK rails means that construction folk can get their 45-degree bevels on 2-by material, which has been the chief complaint against the HK/HKC-55.

It appears to have a rubberized grip.  I don't mind rubberized grips, but something in my body's chemistry destroys most rubberized coatings faster than the average human, so I'd be constantly worried about using gloves with it.

I'm having a hard time deciding if this is intended as a replacement for the HK/HKC 55, and the TS 55 remains the go-to for sheet goods until such time as they merge the two into a single offering.  After all, the chief advantage to the HK/HKC in construction-type work is the fact that it's NOT primarily a plunge saw; it handles like any other circular saw, just way over the top.

It seems like an awful lot of time and money to spend on a "pathfinder" or "market study" type of saw, so it'll be interesting in the long-term to see whether the HK/HKC gets a new variant or if it's quietly phased out over time.  I would say that was the fate for the TS/TSC-55, but they literally just updated it, so it seems silly to drop it from the lineup in favor of this model.

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 2041
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2022, 10:33 AM »
Here's a video of the TS 60 K on the FSK rail:



I also just noticed that the TS 60 K has the integrated KickbackStop like the TSC 55 K and also has a brushless EC-TEC motor.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 10:39 AM by GoingMyWay »
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Offline tsmi243

  • Posts: 285
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2022, 02:45 PM »
What a strange product. It's a TS55 which cuts only 5mm deeper.


Most tracksaws, you go all the way to 10, and that's all you get.  This one goes to 11. 

Offline Ebuwan

  • Posts: 120
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2022, 03:08 PM »
Watching the video, seems it's geared toward hipsters from Brooklyn and people into raving.

Offline Maestronus

  • Posts: 21
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2022, 03:53 PM »
1500W brushless (vs 1200W brushed) so AT LEAST 25% more power. Brushless can be 10-15% more efficient so adding up it could have like 40% more power.
62mm depth (vs 50mm) so 25% more capacity
4.8kg (vs 4.3kg) so 12% heavier
6800 max rpm (vs 5800), 17% more
FSK rail compatibility
Anti-kickback like the TSC K
Improved depth adjustment(?)
~27% higher MSRP(?)

Seems like a pretty nice portable and powerful hybrid to me, when you can’t own/bring a kapex/multiple saws.
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Online woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 438
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2022, 05:29 PM »
What a strange product. It's a TS55 which cuts only 5mm deeper.


Most tracksaws, you go all the way to 10, and that's all you get.  This one goes to 11.

Yeah - but you can’t touch it. You can’t even look at it.

(It's a Spinal Tap joke for anyone who doesn't understand this reply to the above post  [smile])
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 02:16 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline Paul_HKI

  • Posts: 203
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2022, 06:26 PM »
Hmmm.  Maybe it's just a big bigger so they can fill up the wasted space in the Sys3 it'll ship in?   [big grin]
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Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 548
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2022, 08:44 PM »
In my limited experience, a TSK 55 cannot routinely make a clean 45 degree bevel cut in a 2x construction lumber.  A few extra mms would address that issue.

A recent post warned against using a 165mm blade in a TS 55.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2022, 12:46 AM »
No riving knife, no deal.

Great that it has anti-kickback, but it still doesn't protect against the cut-off closing getting chopped up at the rear of the blade if there is tension in the wood.

Nice to cut into thicker wooden countertops... current TS55 lacks just a few mm sometimes.

Good to see a new more powerfull and brushless motor. With the brushelss... makes me wonder why it's still 500 grams heavier. Probably the base to accomodate the FSK rails..

I wonder... can the TS 55 FEBQ riving knife be modded onto it?

Now that I mentioned the riving knife... I just see now that the TS 55 R and F have a riving knife that doesn't go as deep as the first TS 55's.

A recent post warned against using a 165mm blade in a TS 55.

TS 60 K uses 168 mm blades. Still 1.8mm thick.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 12:59 AM by Coen »

Offline figle

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2022, 04:48 AM »
Seems like a pretty nice portable and powerful hybrid to me, when you can’t own/bring a kapex/multiple saws.
But is corded truly portable? I bet we'll see a cordless version next year. It will make more sense with FSK, I think.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9999
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2022, 10:49 AM »
No riving knife, no deal.

I have a serious question, in the wild does it really make that much of a difference on a track saw? I understand the theory behind it but I've had more issues with the kerf closing when using a table saw rather than a track saw.

I used the TS 55 for 6-7 years and then the TSC for 4 years without a single issue. It was because of those 11 problem-less years that I decided 3 years ago to move on to the MT 55 and now recently the TSC/K. Three years in and ripping 4/4 & 6/4 maple & aromatic cedar with the MT 55 and I still haven't had an issue. Just lucky?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2022, 11:00 AM »
This looks 90% like an /eventual/ TS55 replacement to me:

Interesting is the motor seems to be arranged like an angle-grinder - resolving issues with motor overhanging the rails and interacting with rail attachments.

Definitely targeted the key TS55 complaints:
 - power (attack on MT55)
 - depth of cut (already mentioned)
 - compatibility with 165mm blades
 - compatibility with FSK rails

They payed with more weight, but that was likely inevitable given the brushless motor with more power.

Looks geared also for carpentry - covers both TS and HK55 use cases for many people.

Just from a glance, were I to buy a single saw for a one-man-shop or hobby use, this would be what I would want.

ADD
No riving knife, no deal.

I have a serious question, in the wild does it really make that much of a difference on a track saw? I understand the theory behind it but I've had more issues with the kerf closing when using a table saw rather than a track saw.

I used the TS 55 for 6-7 years and then the TSC for 4 years without a single issue. It was because of those 11 problem-less years that I decided 3 years ago to move on to the MT 55 and now recently the TSC/K. Three years in and ripping 4/4 & 6/4 maple & aromatic cedar with the MT 55 and I still haven't had an issue. Just lucky?
Yes it does.

The problem is that even when the saw does not kick, it damages the cut surface. When ripping a narrow-ish piece from a plank it commonly closes after only 30 centimeters - when there was accumulated tension.

We have Parkside saws without riving knifes and I would never consider them for ripping narrow pieces from a plank. With the TSC it is a non-issue as the knife is just 0.1mm narrower so the blade barely scratches the cut surface. For sheet goods there is no need indeed.

Forgot to mention, above is experience with softwood. I have not seen beech or oak with so much tension to cause a problem, they would crack instead long before that.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 11:14 AM by mino »
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Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2022, 12:08 PM »
Seems like a pretty nice portable and powerful hybrid to me, when you can’t own/bring a kapex/multiple saws.
But is corded truly portable? I bet we'll see a cordless version next year. It will make more sense with FSK, I think.

+1 [thumbs up]

Online Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 2372
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2022, 12:26 PM »
This looks 90% like an /eventual/ TS55 replacement to me:

Interesting is the motor seems to be arranged like an angle-grinder - resolving issues with motor overhanging the rails and interacting with rail attachments.

....

Just from a glance, were I to buy a single saw for a one-man-shop or hobby use, this would be what I would want.


I hadn't noticed the lack of the motor overhang; this is probably my one remaining gripe about the TSC/K. I recently got around this, for my use case, by buying a full set of Bench Dogs Quad Dogs and using whatever length needed to avoid interference.

Totally agree with your points and if I were in the market for a new saw I'd lean towards the TS60.

RMW
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Online woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 438
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2022, 01:35 PM »
I take back everything I said about the TS60. Think that just those few mm makes no difference? I jumped in with both feet, thinking "The number of times a TS55 doesn't cut deep enough only happens once or twice a year, and I can finish the cut using a Japanese saw as usual. If I need to cut much thicker material, I'll either use the shop bandsaw or out onsite - my P1CC with a 150mm or 200mm Bosch blade hung on the end of it''. Well - right enough 99.9% of the time, but today I was fitting new 38mm laminate countertops for a customer's kitchen makeover;

Customer - "Can you do me a waterfall on the end of the countertop run so that it folds over and then continues down to the floor?"

Me - "Sure I can ........" (knowing that these are always tricky because the 45-degree countertop bevels have to be super-square, super-accurate and super-clean, and the cheap laminate the customer had bought chips out alarmingly easily). 

But - the countertops weren't 38mm, were they? They were an oddball 43mm (which I've never, ever encountered before in over 300 kitchen jobs), and the TS55's 45-degree bevel cuts at maximum plunge weren't deep enough. Absolute nightmare. I fixed it and got it done, but it took forever. My TS55 is ancient, so when it's 'either spend some money or pay more tax' time at the end of the year, I'll be upgrading. I'll even modify the racking in my van to take the looney-tunes new Systainer3 size for it.



FWIW - I don't care about the lack of a riving knife either, the only kickback I ever had was caused by a combination of tiredness, complacency and my own stupidity. Even using saws with one, if I'm in any doubt whatsoever about the tail-end of a cut closing up on me, I'll always pop a wedge in there just to be sure. My humble apologies to Festool's design team for instantly dismissing their splendid new machine. I feel like a bit of a chump [crying]
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 06:30 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2022, 01:58 PM »
Metabo has already released saws which are cordless. The kt and ks. 6 1/2” blades. 2 3/8” on the rails. One is fs style and one is fsk style. Kt 18 66 bl   Ks 18 66 bl. Well competition is good.

Offline TomK_2

  • Posts: 72
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2022, 04:31 PM »
Ahhhh I just got my TSC 55 K at the end of last year and now this!  [blink]

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1498
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2022, 05:51 PM »
Just watched the entire "Quick Guide" series of 6 videos on the TS60K:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjhsKxIGMv5Ix0vtRV1U4-frdoDwfpaRE

Helps give a better feel for the size and features/functionality.  Similar-but-different quick-locks for the -1 and 47 degree bevels, similar anti-kickback disabling feature to the TSC55K.

I echo others who have said that a TSC 60 K might be the one I wait for, and then sell the HKC and TS 55's.

Who knows...

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2022, 07:35 PM »
No riving knife, no deal.

I have a serious question, in the wild does it really make that much of a difference on a track saw? I understand the theory behind it but I've had more issues with the kerf closing when using a table saw rather than a track saw.

I used the TS 55 for 6-7 years and then the TSC for 4 years without a single issue. It was because of those 11 problem-less years that I decided 3 years ago to move on to the MT 55 and now recently the TSC/K. Three years in and ripping 4/4 & 6/4 maple & aromatic cedar with the MT 55 and I still haven't had an issue. Just lucky?

What do you define as an issue?

I've never had problems with kickback. Kerf closing... more than enough. It's not about the kickback for me either, it's about the cut quality being ruined by the kerf closing on the rear of the blade and messing things up. No amount of electronics will prevent that. So these riving-knifeless saws... I see it as a big downgrade.

I wonder if some dipsh*t is gonna do the same on table saws. I hope not.

I see it also as a step down in inherent safety. Riving knifes can be removed... but that stupid switch braking off and getting hotwired... you know that's gonna happen...

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2022, 10:13 AM »
It's about time for a hybrid corded / cordless track saw. And I would like to know what testing has revealed that has justified omitting the riving knife. Almost every other feature is now in the TS 60 KEBQ so that the TS 55 models can be discontinued.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2022, 04:41 PM »
There is not gonna be a hybrid as it would massively add weight.

The omitting of the riving knife is just stupid, but all the hype at the moment. They can add the kickback detection on top if they want.

Offline Yardbird

  • Posts: 358
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2022, 05:34 PM »
Concerning a Hybrid saw:
Festool makes a 110/ battery hybrid with their FTSC 125 and RTSC and DTSC 400 sanders.  The set has a convertor that replaces the battery then plugs into 110v.  This is a different style battery than the normal Festool batteries, but  I have wondered why Festool has not marketed a convertor that allows the user to use 110v in their normal battery tools.  I know this is a step backwards, but would provide a definite backup when the batteries go bad.  But then I am from an era when a car's dimmer switch was in the floorboard. 

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2022, 06:57 PM »
But then I am from an era when a car's dimmer switch was in the floorboard.

Me too.
I really like my TS 55, but I do mostly sheet goods. I do have a TS75, but it comes out pretty rarely. I did just use it the other day to cut down a "butcher block" top that a customer brought to us from a local home center. They needed it ripped to width and 2 sections joined together for length. The TS75 is far better than trying to shove something like that over a tablesaw.
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Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2022, 08:06 PM »
Concerning a Hybrid saw:
Festool makes a 110/ battery hybrid with their FTSC 125 and RTSC and DTSC 400 sanders.
...
The small sanderes are in the 200 Watts range or threabouts. For such low current it is possible to get a converter in roughly the same space as the battery AND the power loss (heat) it generates is also manageable.

A TSC 55 pulls around 1500 Watts at full load ... that is an order of magnitude more. An adapter to handle the current would have to be about 10x the size of the sander adapters ... 5x at a minimum.

And for what? Only to not have to replace batteries - batteries which one needs to replace every hour or so - i.e. a non issue *for a tracksaw* which sees intermittent use. With the upcomming 8Ah bats this would make even less practical sense.

I can see wanting this on a pneumatic hammer. Or on an angle grinder. I.e. tools which see prolonged use under heavy load. But for an intermittent use tool like a tracksaw it just is not worth it. IMO.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2022, 09:26 PM »
I have a ton of miles behind the makita cordless track saw. Kick back has never been an issue. Nor has no riving  knife. Whether sheet goods or solids. The ts 55 and to a lesser extend the tsc 55 have suffered many more burned rips due to a lack of power.
That being said the clunky safety, inaccurate sticky guide rail adjustments and the fact at 45 the makita over cuts the guide  rail strip is too much for me. And the anti tip thing is over blown. Unless the rail is clamped down it’s useless. Furthermore the makita rails vary too much in width and ironically the only saw that can run on joined rails is the festool. Just my two cents.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline NiteWalkerGR

  • Posts: 94
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2022, 11:16 PM »
Me too.
I really like my TS 55, but I do mostly sheet goods. I do have a TS75, but it comes out pretty rarely. I did just use it the other day to cut down a "butcher block" top that a customer brought to us from a local home center. They needed it ripped to width and 2 sections joined together for length. The TS75 is far better than trying to shove something like that over a tablesaw.
The first job I did with my TS 55 F (and the treason I bought it) was to cut down some butcher block tops for a custom desk. I used the 28 tooth universal blade and the TS 55 handled it no problem. That thinner kerf really makes a difference. I thought I'd need a panther blade but the universal did just fine. And I concur; I'd not want to shove those tops over my tablesaw.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2022, 06:33 PM »
I probably could have done it with the TS55. I have a ripping blade for it (CMT) and the pieces were "only" 2 inches thick, but since the TS75 is just sitting there and the Panther blade was still in it from last time, why not.

I actually just got a 28 tooth universal blade for my TS55 a couple of weeks ago. I have pretty much only used the standard 48 tooth or a zero rake triple-chip blade for cutting solid surface.
I had let one (48) get too dull and the back-up (48) was at the sharpener service. I knew I was going to need it the next day and wasn't willing to use one of the TCG blades, so I picked one up at the local dealer on the way home that night.
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Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2022, 07:14 PM »
I have a ton of miles behind the makita cordless track saw. Kick back has never been an issue. Nor has no riving  knife. Whether sheet goods or solids. The ts 55 and to a lesser extend the tsc 55 have suffered many more burned rips due to a lack of power.
That being said the clunky safety, inaccurate sticky guide rail adjustments and the fact at 45 the makita over cuts the guide  rail strip is too much for me. And the anti tip thing is over blown. Unless the rail is clamped down it’s useless. Furthermore the makita rails vary too much in width and ironically the only saw that can run on joined rails is the festool. Just my two cents.

I have a Festool rail that has a thinner ridge than all my other Festool rails  [wink]

Other saws can't run on joined rails? Why not? Huh? Maybe break the edges of other rails?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2022, 05:49 AM »
I have a Festool rail that has a thinner ridge than all my other Festool rails  [wink]

Other saws can't run on joined rails? Why not? Huh? Maybe break the edges of other rails?
The Makita rails have a similar variance in between them compared to the FS/2 series (checked on asample of 20 or so from different batches). The Makita manufacturing standard is mostly lower on the straightness only.

But it does not mean one cannot get a pair of absolutely straight and matching Makita rails.
And it does not mean one cannot get a set of Festool rails where the variance is such it is worse than a lucky set of the Makitas...

The difference is in the saw, though.

The adjusting slides used on the TS55 series are more "forgiving" as they have a bit of a play range where the force applied is sufficient to guide the saw yet also allows to accomodate slight rib width differences to work.
All the other saws like SP 6000 or TS75 do not have this and so are more sensitive to the rib width variance or have to be set a bit loose, affecting cut quality.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2022, 12:45 PM »
Yes. I agree. But my experience is this, of the 5 makita rails I have and the 5 festool rails I have the makitas vary more in thickness at the guide bar section. I find them all just as straight. The festools are stiffer.
For the record I am selling my cordless makita 2 boxes 2 batteries dust bag 55” rail $275.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2022, 12:53 PM »
Yes. I agree. But my experience is this, of the 5 makita rails I have and the 5 festool rails I have the makitas vary more in thickness at the guide bar section. I find them all just as straight. The festools are stiffer.
For the record I am selling my cordless makita 2 boxes 2 batteries dust bag 55” rail $275.

And using the Metabo?

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2022, 06:59 PM »
I have a Festool rail that has a thinner ridge than all my other Festool rails  [wink]

Other saws can't run on joined rails? Why not? Huh? Maybe break the edges of other rails?
The Makita rails have a similar variance in between them compared to the FS/2 series (checked on asample of 20 or so from different batches). The Makita manufacturing standard is mostly lower on the straightness only.

But it does not mean one cannot get a pair of absolutely straight and matching Makita rails.
And it does not mean one cannot get a set of Festool rails where the variance is such it is worse than a lucky set of the Makitas...

The difference is in the saw, though.

The adjusting slides used on the TS55 series are more "forgiving" as they have a bit of a play range where the force applied is sufficient to guide the saw yet also allows to accomodate slight rib width differences to work.
All the other saws like SP 6000 or TS75 do not have this and so are more sensitive to the rib width variance or have to be set a bit loose, affecting cut quality.

Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2022, 08:26 PM »
The metabo: has two separate hard plastic guides controlled by one knob. Not as good as the festool better than makita. What I like about the metabo is the one battery placement at the rear. The saw is not as wide and better balanced than the festool. I like having 2 saws. I just sold the old tsc 55 and bought the new one and i will do a comparison. I always felt the tsc 55 struggled with anything other than 3/4” ply. But the tsc 55 is a smooth machine with integrated Bluetooth batteries for dust collection when needed.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2022, 03:25 AM »
Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?
Nope. The partial slides were introduced with late TS55 and full ones with the R refresh. The TS75 was not updated yet.

This would require a new bottom plate, so probably it is such a slow seller Festool figured it not worth to update it just for this.

Also, the slides solved accuracy issues with the smaller saws (contact points were too close to each other) while the TS 75 never had this issue.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2022, 11:25 AM »
Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?
Nope. The partial slides were introduced with late TS55 and full ones with the R refresh. The TS75 was not updated yet.

This would require a new bottom plate, so probably it is such a slow seller Festool figured it not worth to update it just for this.

Also, the slides solved accuracy issues with the smaller saws (contact points were too close to each other) while the TS 75 never had this issue.

The old ATF 55 and 65 didn’t have that problem as the grove in the steel base is continuous and if you are careful the blade will be parallel to the cut line with only a couple of inches of engagement with the rail.

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 927
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2022, 01:18 PM »
This looks 90% like an /eventual/ TS55 replacement to me:

Interesting is the motor seems to be arranged like an angle-grinder - resolving issues with motor overhanging the rails and interacting with rail attachments.

Definitely targeted the key TS55 complaints:
 - power (attack on MT55)
 - depth of cut (already mentioned)
 - compatibility with 165mm blades
 - compatibility with FSK rails

They payed with more weight, but that was likely inevitable given the brushless motor with more power.

Looks geared also for carpentry - covers both TS and HK55 use cases for many people.

Just from a glance, were I to buy a single saw for a one-man-shop or hobby use, this would be what I would want.

Agreed, And I'll be buying one:)
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2022, 03:56 PM »
Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?
Nope. The partial slides were introduced with late TS55 and full ones with the R refresh. The TS75 was not updated yet.

This would require a new bottom plate, so probably it is such a slow seller Festool figured it not worth to update it just for this.

Also, the slides solved accuracy issues with the smaller saws (contact points were too close to each other) while the TS 75 never had this issue.

And the HK85? Does that have these "full slides"?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2022, 12:17 AM »
And the HK85? Does that have these "full slides"?
Apparently. In eKat the slides are the last part# in the HK 85 list.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2022, 12:20 PM »
My local Festool rep says that only the cordless TS 60 has been ordered for my country. I cannot find any reference to a cordless version, only the corded versions in the seven different, short Festool preview videos on YouTube as at Aug 2022.

Has anyone heard any reliable information about a corded version?

I presume that both a corded and cordless version will eventually replace the TS 55 models.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2022, 01:49 PM »
Don't count on it. The 55 is cheaper and lighter.

I've not seen anything about a cordless 60.

Offline jcrowe1950

  • Festool Dealer Affiliate
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  • Posts: 223
    • Woodcraft Chattanooga, TN
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2022, 09:49 PM »
No riving knife, no deal.

I have a serious question, in the wild does it really make that much of a difference on a track saw? I understand the theory behind it but I've had more issues with the kerf closing when using a table saw rather than a track saw.

I used the TS 55 for 6-7 years and then the TSC for 4 years without a single issue. It was because of those 11 problem-less years that I decided 3 years ago to move on to the MT 55 and now recently the TSC/K. Three years in and ripping 4/4 & 6/4 maple & aromatic cedar with the MT 55 and I still haven't had an issue. Just lucky?

 Hey Cheese, et al,

      The new saw does address one issue I expected with the refresh of the TS 55, namely using a brushless motor in a corded saw. Using brushless or electronically commutated (EC) designs on cordless tools is a no brainer. The anti-kickback feature is a function of brushless motors that allow power interruption to quickly stop the blade rotation. Thus, the anti-kickback feature is a freebie. I am a little surprised that this saw weighs significantly more than the TS 55. Another plus is that the new saw should run a bit cooler and with less vibration than the brushed models. That's certainly more of an issue with sanders but still a win. This seems to be more of a TS 55 replacement to me. Also, since it will work with the FSK tracks, it could be a cross market saw. More than anything, in terms of competition, this would seem to be a competitor to the Mafell 55mm track saw. Sadly, in the NA market, who knows when we will see this puppy. What I'd like to see is a 75 or even an 85 version of this saw....
Festool Specialist at Woodcraft, Chattanooga, TN

Latest Festool purchase...Rotex 150.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2022, 05:05 AM »
The Operating Manual for the TS 60 KEBQ-Plus-FS lists the TS 60 KEB and states that is has no removable mains cable.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 05:24 AM by ToolCrazy »

Offline neeleman

  • Posts: 1287
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2022, 05:12 AM »
Nothing cordless at all.
Just a saw without a Plug-it cord and a fixed cord.
Festoolian since 1998.
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PROTOOL:
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Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2022, 05:29 AM »
The Operating Manual for the TS 60 KEBQ-Plus-FS lists the TS 60 KEB and states that is has no removable mains cable.
Actually, you got it the wrong way round:
The new TS60 KEBQ, as well as all the TS 55 versions, are cordless. No cord on those as there was never a corded TS55 made.

The KEB you mention is the only corded tool from the whole lineup since the times of the ATF series.

[cool]
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2022, 05:49 AM »
This media information page shows a cord on the TS 60 KEBQ:



And there's no battery here:

« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 05:58 AM by ToolCrazy »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2022, 06:17 AM »
This media information page shows a cord on the TS 60 KEBQ:


And there's no battery here:
Mine was just pun on the word "cordless" which is a /technical/ misnomer.

The TS 60 KEBQ does not have a cord. The same as the TS 55 series do not.

The PlugIt cord is not part of the saw but a separate thing. Hence the saw is without the cord, hence it is cordless ... the same way an electric kettle being "cordless" does not imply it being battery-powered.
;)


This pun works atop today's English meaning of "cordless" being a misnomer that just stuck. Technically, the presense/not of a cord has nothing to do with the tool being battery-powered or not. There are battery powered tools with cords that go to the battery pack on the user's back etc. And there are mains-powered fixed tools which do not use cord but fixed power cables.

Since you got caught in this termitology thing, I found it a good opportunity to take a shot at this ambiguity.

So, to get serious:
The TS60 K is, in all versions, a mains-powered tool.
The TS60 KEBQ does not have a cord and uses the PlugIt removable cord system
The TS60 KEB has a cord

There is no TSC 60 being announced thus far and no battery-powered TS* 60 series is known to exist or to be planned. Of course, it cannot be ruled out in the future. E.g. the new 8Ah battery packs peak current capability would allow for a stronger-than-TSC-55 saw to be made.

That said, I would expect Festool first to get some real-life data from the TS60 used in the wild before releasing a battery-powered version. The TS 60 seems to have a completely new mechanical configuration, so there will be new wear angles yet to be uncovered. I would expect Festool to bring the TS 60 series gearbox to the cordless world (sic) only a couple years later, once the mechanics are well-proven and any possible lessons can be learned.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 12:52 PM by mino »
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2022, 12:03 PM »
Except that I don't see any reference to a TS 60 FEBQ (I think you meant K not F) - only the following mains powered (aka "not battery powered"  [wink]) packages:
  • TS 60 KEBQ-Plus
  • TS 60 KEBQ-Plus-FS
K = series/generation of saw
E = intelligent MMC electronics, variable speed and speed maintained under load (EC-TEC brushless motor)
B = quick-acting brake system for safe operation
Q = Plug-It lead system
Plus = supplied in a Systainer
FS = supplied with a 1400mm guide rail

So there's only one TS 60 saw listed, which has a Plug-it cord. Yet I understood my local Festool rep to say that only battery powered versions have been ordered, arriving Jan '23.

I still think the concept of a hybrid mains/battery version would make sense, with a mains adapter that attaches to the saw in place of the two batteries, like the DTSC, ETSC and RTSC sanders which have the option of a "Mains adapter ACA 220-240/18V Ergo" that weighs in at 0.30kg.



Just for fun, I'm going to speculate what a TSC 60 hybrid (hypothetical product for now...) may weigh in at....The product weights of different models are:
  • TS 55 FEBQ (mains powered) = 4.3kg
  • TSC 55 KEBI (battery powered) = 3.6kg + (2 x 0.7kg) for standard 5.2Ah batteries = 4.8kg
  • TS 60 KEBQ (mains powered) = 4.8kg
  • TS 75 KEBQ (mains powered) = 5.7kg

The EC-TEC brushless motor on the battery-power TSC 55 may account for the 0.7kg lighter weight than the mains-powered TS 55.

However, the mains-powered, 1600W, EC-TEC brushless-motored TS 60 is strangely 0.5kg heavier than the brushed-motor TS55 and a whopping 1.2kg heavier than the battery-powered TSC 55 (sans batteries) - perhaps due to the blade, riving knife/anti-kick-back and a few other changes.

A hybrid mains adapter for a saw would draw way more current than a sander, so perhaps the adapter weighs 1.0 - 1.4kg (the weight of two standard 5.2Ah batteries, or 3 - 4 time the weight of the sander mains adapter).

So a hybrid mains/battery-powered TSC 60 (hypothetical product for now...) could weigh 6.2kg with two standard 5.2Ah batteries or with the hybrid mains adapter connected. That's more than the TS 75, but I'm sure the smart engineers could put that on a diet, but they'd have to trim off 1.2kg to get it to 5.0kg, which is a manageable weight I could live with for the versatility.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 07:24 AM by ToolCrazy »

Offline woodferret

  • Posts: 183
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2022, 01:58 PM »
It's not the weight... It's the heat.  Think of your PC power supply size and dissipation given that it's probably sub 500W.

Offline ModBjnry

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2022, 07:31 AM »
I can see this being a bit of a wunder-tool for my work. I often have to trim 56mm doors and occasionally cut trim for new door installs. Not having to lug a mitre saw around due to the cross cut rail would be great.

I’m just disappointed that they’re not offering a 36v cordless version.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2022, 02:46 PM »
It's not the weight... It's the heat.  Think of your PC power supply size and dissipation given that it's probably sub 500W.

Depending on what exact ATX spec it adheres to, it has to supply 3-5 voltage (+12, +5, +3.3, -12, -5) + a standby +5V, all with much tighter tolerances (+/-5%, regardless of load). An 18V adapter for tools like this can easily be just fine supplying 21V at no-load and sag to 16V under load, or 18.5V +/- 13.5%

And PC power supplies do this very very efficient. However, this comes at the cost of size and weight. But 18V batteries generate heat too when giving up their charge at a rapid pace. Discharge a 4Ah battery in <15 minutes and it will have to cool down before you can charge it.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2022, 04:24 PM »
It's not the weight... It's the heat.  Think of your PC power supply size and dissipation given that it's probably sub 500W.

Depending on what exact ATX spec it adheres to, it has to supply 3-5 voltage (+12, +5, +3.3, -12, -5) + a standby +5V, all with much tighter tolerances (+/-5%, regardless of load). An 18V adapter for tools like this can easily be just fine supplying 21V at no-load and sag to 16V under load, or 18.5V +/- 13.5%

And PC power supplies do this very very efficient. However, this comes at the cost of size and weight. But 18V batteries generate heat too when giving up their charge at a rapid pace. Discharge a 4Ah battery in <15 minutes and it will have to cool down before you can charge it.
Even looking at 95% efficiency, which is about as much as one can achieve for such, you are looking at dissipating about 50-100 watts which is no fun. Besides, there is a reason a 90% efficiency 1500W PC PSU - with almost no size constraints - goes $200.

I am not sure many people would be willing to pay $400+ for a mains adapter. Especially now that 8Ah packs will be around to take care of heavy work.

You make a good point with the bats - you swap them when hot. Not sure "swapping" the power adapter would be seen as acceptable. Heh.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2022, 06:55 PM »
The heat in the battery during rapid discharge means it's not 100% either.

5% loss is not dissipating 50-100W; that would assume 1-2 kW power. Even the Bosch 1800W claim is not that the 18V battery supplies 1800W, but that in combination with certain machines it gives "equal" performance with a 1800W wired tool.

Eg their 18V vac is only 270W. That probably does better than a 500W mains powered vac, but it's not 500W.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2022, 04:54 PM »
The heat in the battery during rapid discharge means it's not 100% either.

5% loss is not dissipating 50-100W; that would assume 1-2 kW power. Even the Bosch 1800W claim is not that the 18V battery supplies 1800W, but that in combination with certain machines it gives "equal" performance with a 1800W wired tool.

Eg their 18V vac is only 270W. That probably does better than a 500W mains powered vac, but it's not 500W.
A quality 10-cell 18650 pak like Festool's gives about 10C sustained, 15-20C peak. So about 600W at 20V (1000W+ peak). Of course whether such us pulled by the tool is another. But my TSC 55 sure takes all the current the bats got. No sandbagging there.

Also, the TSC55 casually operates around that ballpark in practice - i.e. about 1200W sustained output. With the same blade it has slightly more power than a standard brushed 1200W saw I use along it.
There are some losses from the low voltage compared to 230V AC, and the "combining" of the two bats as sources, so I figure what it gains from being brushless are just about enough to make it a wash against a brushed 230V tool on efficiency. It may be 1100W or 1400W pulled when measured at the batteries, but surely not below 1000W.

Point being, if you want to make an adapter that can provide power comparable to a TSC55, you need something that can provide about 1500W peak, 1200W sustained aka 80A @18V. And that thing will weght some and will need to dissipate about 50-60W at the best of cases. Can be done with a fan.

Either way it is a moot point.
Festool does not have a 36/40V pack option that would be a must for this to be applicable. And the new 8Ah packs can provide up to 1000W sustained per pack, so I can see Festool beefing up any TSC55 "new version" to take advantage of that instead of going with another 40V-ish platform just for the saws.


I agree on the vacs though. These are heavily toned down due to their typical duty cycle.

They (would) run just fine from the small 3.1Ah 5-cell bats while at it. So there a "low power" adapter may work out. It may even be worth it specifically for the vacs use case and any bulk would be a non-issue.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2022, 08:08 PM »
The gain in motor efficiency is way more than the few extra losses in wiring.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2022, 10:34 AM »
There's a new video that shows some of the upcoming TS60 K features, plus a few nifty things that the earlier videos don't show. The history of the Festo track saws and video of the new factory built to manufacture these are great too. It's in German, but the English sub-titles are very good:



Enjoy!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 11:23 AM by ToolCrazy »

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Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 2041
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2022, 10:54 AM »
Here's the video from the previous post:

The full URL (youtube.com) and not the shortened URL (youtu.be) needs to be used in order for the video to load properly on the forum.
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2022, 11:23 AM »
Thanks! Learn something every day  [tongue]