Author Topic: Festool TS60 K ?  (Read 11594 times)

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Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2022, 09:26 PM »
I have a ton of miles behind the makita cordless track saw. Kick back has never been an issue. Nor has no riving  knife. Whether sheet goods or solids. The ts 55 and to a lesser extend the tsc 55 have suffered many more burned rips due to a lack of power.
That being said the clunky safety, inaccurate sticky guide rail adjustments and the fact at 45 the makita over cuts the guide  rail strip is too much for me. And the anti tip thing is over blown. Unless the rail is clamped down it’s useless. Furthermore the makita rails vary too much in width and ironically the only saw that can run on joined rails is the festool. Just my two cents.

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Offline NiteWalkerGR

  • Posts: 94
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2022, 11:16 PM »
Me too.
I really like my TS 55, but I do mostly sheet goods. I do have a TS75, but it comes out pretty rarely. I did just use it the other day to cut down a "butcher block" top that a customer brought to us from a local home center. They needed it ripped to width and 2 sections joined together for length. The TS75 is far better than trying to shove something like that over a tablesaw.
The first job I did with my TS 55 F (and the treason I bought it) was to cut down some butcher block tops for a custom desk. I used the 28 tooth universal blade and the TS 55 handled it no problem. That thinner kerf really makes a difference. I thought I'd need a panther blade but the universal did just fine. And I concur; I'd not want to shove those tops over my tablesaw.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2022, 06:33 PM »
I probably could have done it with the TS55. I have a ripping blade for it (CMT) and the pieces were "only" 2 inches thick, but since the TS75 is just sitting there and the Panther blade was still in it from last time, why not.

I actually just got a 28 tooth universal blade for my TS55 a couple of weeks ago. I have pretty much only used the standard 48 tooth or a zero rake triple-chip blade for cutting solid surface.
I had let one (48) get too dull and the back-up (48) was at the sharpener service. I knew I was going to need it the next day and wasn't willing to use one of the TCG blades, so I picked one up at the local dealer on the way home that night.
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Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2022, 07:14 PM »
I have a ton of miles behind the makita cordless track saw. Kick back has never been an issue. Nor has no riving  knife. Whether sheet goods or solids. The ts 55 and to a lesser extend the tsc 55 have suffered many more burned rips due to a lack of power.
That being said the clunky safety, inaccurate sticky guide rail adjustments and the fact at 45 the makita over cuts the guide  rail strip is too much for me. And the anti tip thing is over blown. Unless the rail is clamped down it’s useless. Furthermore the makita rails vary too much in width and ironically the only saw that can run on joined rails is the festool. Just my two cents.

I have a Festool rail that has a thinner ridge than all my other Festool rails  [wink]

Other saws can't run on joined rails? Why not? Huh? Maybe break the edges of other rails?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2022, 05:49 AM »
I have a Festool rail that has a thinner ridge than all my other Festool rails  [wink]

Other saws can't run on joined rails? Why not? Huh? Maybe break the edges of other rails?
The Makita rails have a similar variance in between them compared to the FS/2 series (checked on asample of 20 or so from different batches). The Makita manufacturing standard is mostly lower on the straightness only.

But it does not mean one cannot get a pair of absolutely straight and matching Makita rails.
And it does not mean one cannot get a set of Festool rails where the variance is such it is worse than a lucky set of the Makitas...

The difference is in the saw, though.

The adjusting slides used on the TS55 series are more "forgiving" as they have a bit of a play range where the force applied is sufficient to guide the saw yet also allows to accomodate slight rib width differences to work.
All the other saws like SP 6000 or TS75 do not have this and so are more sensitive to the rib width variance or have to be set a bit loose, affecting cut quality.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2022, 12:45 PM »
Yes. I agree. But my experience is this, of the 5 makita rails I have and the 5 festool rails I have the makitas vary more in thickness at the guide bar section. I find them all just as straight. The festools are stiffer.
For the record I am selling my cordless makita 2 boxes 2 batteries dust bag 55” rail $275.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2022, 12:53 PM »
Yes. I agree. But my experience is this, of the 5 makita rails I have and the 5 festool rails I have the makitas vary more in thickness at the guide bar section. I find them all just as straight. The festools are stiffer.
For the record I am selling my cordless makita 2 boxes 2 batteries dust bag 55” rail $275.

And using the Metabo?

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2022, 06:59 PM »
I have a Festool rail that has a thinner ridge than all my other Festool rails  [wink]

Other saws can't run on joined rails? Why not? Huh? Maybe break the edges of other rails?
The Makita rails have a similar variance in between them compared to the FS/2 series (checked on asample of 20 or so from different batches). The Makita manufacturing standard is mostly lower on the straightness only.

But it does not mean one cannot get a pair of absolutely straight and matching Makita rails.
And it does not mean one cannot get a set of Festool rails where the variance is such it is worse than a lucky set of the Makitas...

The difference is in the saw, though.

The adjusting slides used on the TS55 series are more "forgiving" as they have a bit of a play range where the force applied is sufficient to guide the saw yet also allows to accomodate slight rib width differences to work.
All the other saws like SP 6000 or TS75 do not have this and so are more sensitive to the rib width variance or have to be set a bit loose, affecting cut quality.

Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2022, 08:26 PM »
The metabo: has two separate hard plastic guides controlled by one knob. Not as good as the festool better than makita. What I like about the metabo is the one battery placement at the rear. The saw is not as wide and better balanced than the festool. I like having 2 saws. I just sold the old tsc 55 and bought the new one and i will do a comparison. I always felt the tsc 55 struggled with anything other than 3/4” ply. But the tsc 55 is a smooth machine with integrated Bluetooth batteries for dust collection when needed.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2022, 03:25 AM »
Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?
Nope. The partial slides were introduced with late TS55 and full ones with the R refresh. The TS75 was not updated yet.

This would require a new bottom plate, so probably it is such a slow seller Festool figured it not worth to update it just for this.

Also, the slides solved accuracy issues with the smaller saws (contact points were too close to each other) while the TS 75 never had this issue.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5599
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2022, 11:25 AM »
Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?
Nope. The partial slides were introduced with late TS55 and full ones with the R refresh. The TS75 was not updated yet.

This would require a new bottom plate, so probably it is such a slow seller Festool figured it not worth to update it just for this.

Also, the slides solved accuracy issues with the smaller saws (contact points were too close to each other) while the TS 75 never had this issue.

The old ATF 55 and 65 didn’t have that problem as the grove in the steel base is continuous and if you are careful the blade will be parallel to the cut line with only a couple of inches of engagement with the rail.

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 927
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2022, 01:18 PM »
This looks 90% like an /eventual/ TS55 replacement to me:

Interesting is the motor seems to be arranged like an angle-grinder - resolving issues with motor overhanging the rails and interacting with rail attachments.

Definitely targeted the key TS55 complaints:
 - power (attack on MT55)
 - depth of cut (already mentioned)
 - compatibility with 165mm blades
 - compatibility with FSK rails

They payed with more weight, but that was likely inevitable given the brushless motor with more power.

Looks geared also for carpentry - covers both TS and HK55 use cases for many people.

Just from a glance, were I to buy a single saw for a one-man-shop or hobby use, this would be what I would want.

Agreed, And I'll be buying one:)
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2022, 03:56 PM »
Wait what? TS55 and TS75 don't have the same 'feet'?
Nope. The partial slides were introduced with late TS55 and full ones with the R refresh. The TS75 was not updated yet.

This would require a new bottom plate, so probably it is such a slow seller Festool figured it not worth to update it just for this.

Also, the slides solved accuracy issues with the smaller saws (contact points were too close to each other) while the TS 75 never had this issue.

And the HK85? Does that have these "full slides"?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2022, 12:17 AM »
And the HK85? Does that have these "full slides"?
Apparently. In eKat the slides are the last part# in the HK 85 list.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2022, 12:20 PM »
My local Festool rep says that only the cordless TS 60 has been ordered for my country. I cannot find any reference to a cordless version, only the corded versions in the seven different, short Festool preview videos on YouTube as at Aug 2022.

Has anyone heard any reliable information about a corded version?

I presume that both a corded and cordless version will eventually replace the TS 55 models.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2022, 01:49 PM »
Don't count on it. The 55 is cheaper and lighter.

I've not seen anything about a cordless 60.

Offline jcrowe1950

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Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2022, 09:49 PM »
No riving knife, no deal.

I have a serious question, in the wild does it really make that much of a difference on a track saw? I understand the theory behind it but I've had more issues with the kerf closing when using a table saw rather than a track saw.

I used the TS 55 for 6-7 years and then the TSC for 4 years without a single issue. It was because of those 11 problem-less years that I decided 3 years ago to move on to the MT 55 and now recently the TSC/K. Three years in and ripping 4/4 & 6/4 maple & aromatic cedar with the MT 55 and I still haven't had an issue. Just lucky?

 Hey Cheese, et al,

      The new saw does address one issue I expected with the refresh of the TS 55, namely using a brushless motor in a corded saw. Using brushless or electronically commutated (EC) designs on cordless tools is a no brainer. The anti-kickback feature is a function of brushless motors that allow power interruption to quickly stop the blade rotation. Thus, the anti-kickback feature is a freebie. I am a little surprised that this saw weighs significantly more than the TS 55. Another plus is that the new saw should run a bit cooler and with less vibration than the brushed models. That's certainly more of an issue with sanders but still a win. This seems to be more of a TS 55 replacement to me. Also, since it will work with the FSK tracks, it could be a cross market saw. More than anything, in terms of competition, this would seem to be a competitor to the Mafell 55mm track saw. Sadly, in the NA market, who knows when we will see this puppy. What I'd like to see is a 75 or even an 85 version of this saw....
Festool Specialist at Woodcraft, Chattanooga, TN

Latest Festool purchase...Rotex 150.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2022, 05:05 AM »
The Operating Manual for the TS 60 KEBQ-Plus-FS lists the TS 60 KEB and states that is has no removable mains cable.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 05:24 AM by ToolCrazy »

Offline neeleman

  • Posts: 1287
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2022, 05:12 AM »
Nothing cordless at all.
Just a saw without a Plug-it cord and a fixed cord.
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Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2022, 05:29 AM »
The Operating Manual for the TS 60 KEBQ-Plus-FS lists the TS 60 KEB and states that is has no removable mains cable.
Actually, you got it the wrong way round:
The new TS60 KEBQ, as well as all the TS 55 versions, are cordless. No cord on those as there was never a corded TS55 made.

The KEB you mention is the only corded tool from the whole lineup since the times of the ATF series.

[cool]
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2022, 05:49 AM »
This media information page shows a cord on the TS 60 KEBQ:



And there's no battery here:

« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 05:58 AM by ToolCrazy »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2022, 06:17 AM »
This media information page shows a cord on the TS 60 KEBQ:


And there's no battery here:
Mine was just pun on the word "cordless" which is a /technical/ misnomer.

The TS 60 KEBQ does not have a cord. The same as the TS 55 series do not.

The PlugIt cord is not part of the saw but a separate thing. Hence the saw is without the cord, hence it is cordless ... the same way an electric kettle being "cordless" does not imply it being battery-powered.
;)


This pun works atop today's English meaning of "cordless" being a misnomer that just stuck. Technically, the presense/not of a cord has nothing to do with the tool being battery-powered or not. There are battery powered tools with cords that go to the battery pack on the user's back etc. And there are mains-powered fixed tools which do not use cord but fixed power cables.

Since you got caught in this termitology thing, I found it a good opportunity to take a shot at this ambiguity.

So, to get serious:
The TS60 K is, in all versions, a mains-powered tool.
The TS60 KEBQ does not have a cord and uses the PlugIt removable cord system
The TS60 KEB has a cord

There is no TSC 60 being announced thus far and no battery-powered TS* 60 series is known to exist or to be planned. Of course, it cannot be ruled out in the future. E.g. the new 8Ah battery packs peak current capability would allow for a stronger-than-TSC-55 saw to be made.

That said, I would expect Festool first to get some real-life data from the TS60 used in the wild before releasing a battery-powered version. The TS 60 seems to have a completely new mechanical configuration, so there will be new wear angles yet to be uncovered. I would expect Festool to bring the TS 60 series gearbox to the cordless world (sic) only a couple years later, once the mechanics are well-proven and any possible lessons can be learned.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 12:52 PM by mino »
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline ToolCrazy

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2022, 12:03 PM »
Except that I don't see any reference to a TS 60 FEBQ (I think you meant K not F) - only the following mains powered (aka "not battery powered"  [wink]) packages:
  • TS 60 KEBQ-Plus
  • TS 60 KEBQ-Plus-FS
K = series/generation of saw
E = intelligent MMC electronics, variable speed and speed maintained under load (EC-TEC brushless motor)
B = quick-acting brake system for safe operation
Q = Plug-It lead system
Plus = supplied in a Systainer
FS = supplied with a 1400mm guide rail

So there's only one TS 60 saw listed, which has a Plug-it cord. Yet I understood my local Festool rep to say that only battery powered versions have been ordered, arriving Jan '23.

I still think the concept of a hybrid mains/battery version would make sense, with a mains adapter that attaches to the saw in place of the two batteries, like the DTSC, ETSC and RTSC sanders which have the option of a "Mains adapter ACA 220-240/18V Ergo" that weighs in at 0.30kg.



Just for fun, I'm going to speculate what a TSC 60 hybrid (hypothetical product for now...) may weigh in at....The product weights of different models are:
  • TS 55 FEBQ (mains powered) = 4.3kg
  • TSC 55 KEBI (battery powered) = 3.6kg + (2 x 0.7kg) for standard 5.2Ah batteries = 4.8kg
  • TS 60 KEBQ (mains powered) = 4.8kg
  • TS 75 KEBQ (mains powered) = 5.7kg

The EC-TEC brushless motor on the battery-power TSC 55 may account for the 0.7kg lighter weight than the mains-powered TS 55.

However, the mains-powered, 1600W, EC-TEC brushless-motored TS 60 is strangely 0.5kg heavier than the brushed-motor TS55 and a whopping 1.2kg heavier than the battery-powered TSC 55 (sans batteries) - perhaps due to the blade, riving knife/anti-kick-back and a few other changes.

A hybrid mains adapter for a saw would draw way more current than a sander, so perhaps the adapter weighs 1.0 - 1.4kg (the weight of two standard 5.2Ah batteries, or 3 - 4 time the weight of the sander mains adapter).

So a hybrid mains/battery-powered TSC 60 (hypothetical product for now...) could weigh 6.2kg with two standard 5.2Ah batteries or with the hybrid mains adapter connected. That's more than the TS 75, but I'm sure the smart engineers could put that on a diet, but they'd have to trim off 1.2kg to get it to 5.0kg, which is a manageable weight I could live with for the versatility.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 07:24 AM by ToolCrazy »

Offline woodferret

  • Posts: 183
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2022, 01:58 PM »
It's not the weight... It's the heat.  Think of your PC power supply size and dissipation given that it's probably sub 500W.

Offline ModBjnry

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2022, 07:31 AM »
I can see this being a bit of a wunder-tool for my work. I often have to trim 56mm doors and occasionally cut trim for new door installs. Not having to lug a mitre saw around due to the cross cut rail would be great.

I’m just disappointed that they’re not offering a 36v cordless version.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2022, 02:46 PM »
It's not the weight... It's the heat.  Think of your PC power supply size and dissipation given that it's probably sub 500W.

Depending on what exact ATX spec it adheres to, it has to supply 3-5 voltage (+12, +5, +3.3, -12, -5) + a standby +5V, all with much tighter tolerances (+/-5%, regardless of load). An 18V adapter for tools like this can easily be just fine supplying 21V at no-load and sag to 16V under load, or 18.5V +/- 13.5%

And PC power supplies do this very very efficient. However, this comes at the cost of size and weight. But 18V batteries generate heat too when giving up their charge at a rapid pace. Discharge a 4Ah battery in <15 minutes and it will have to cool down before you can charge it.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2022, 04:24 PM »
It's not the weight... It's the heat.  Think of your PC power supply size and dissipation given that it's probably sub 500W.

Depending on what exact ATX spec it adheres to, it has to supply 3-5 voltage (+12, +5, +3.3, -12, -5) + a standby +5V, all with much tighter tolerances (+/-5%, regardless of load). An 18V adapter for tools like this can easily be just fine supplying 21V at no-load and sag to 16V under load, or 18.5V +/- 13.5%

And PC power supplies do this very very efficient. However, this comes at the cost of size and weight. But 18V batteries generate heat too when giving up their charge at a rapid pace. Discharge a 4Ah battery in <15 minutes and it will have to cool down before you can charge it.
Even looking at 95% efficiency, which is about as much as one can achieve for such, you are looking at dissipating about 50-100 watts which is no fun. Besides, there is a reason a 90% efficiency 1500W PC PSU - with almost no size constraints - goes $200.

I am not sure many people would be willing to pay $400+ for a mains adapter. Especially now that 8Ah packs will be around to take care of heavy work.

You make a good point with the bats - you swap them when hot. Not sure "swapping" the power adapter would be seen as acceptable. Heh.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2022, 06:55 PM »
The heat in the battery during rapid discharge means it's not 100% either.

5% loss is not dissipating 50-100W; that would assume 1-2 kW power. Even the Bosch 1800W claim is not that the 18V battery supplies 1800W, but that in combination with certain machines it gives "equal" performance with a 1800W wired tool.

Eg their 18V vac is only 270W. That probably does better than a 500W mains powered vac, but it's not 500W.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2022, 04:54 PM »
The heat in the battery during rapid discharge means it's not 100% either.

5% loss is not dissipating 50-100W; that would assume 1-2 kW power. Even the Bosch 1800W claim is not that the 18V battery supplies 1800W, but that in combination with certain machines it gives "equal" performance with a 1800W wired tool.

Eg their 18V vac is only 270W. That probably does better than a 500W mains powered vac, but it's not 500W.
A quality 10-cell 18650 pak like Festool's gives about 10C sustained, 15-20C peak. So about 600W at 20V (1000W+ peak). Of course whether such us pulled by the tool is another. But my TSC 55 sure takes all the current the bats got. No sandbagging there.

Also, the TSC55 casually operates around that ballpark in practice - i.e. about 1200W sustained output. With the same blade it has slightly more power than a standard brushed 1200W saw I use along it.
There are some losses from the low voltage compared to 230V AC, and the "combining" of the two bats as sources, so I figure what it gains from being brushless are just about enough to make it a wash against a brushed 230V tool on efficiency. It may be 1100W or 1400W pulled when measured at the batteries, but surely not below 1000W.

Point being, if you want to make an adapter that can provide power comparable to a TSC55, you need something that can provide about 1500W peak, 1200W sustained aka 80A @18V. And that thing will weght some and will need to dissipate about 50-60W at the best of cases. Can be done with a fan.

Either way it is a moot point.
Festool does not have a 36/40V pack option that would be a must for this to be applicable. And the new 8Ah packs can provide up to 1000W sustained per pack, so I can see Festool beefing up any TSC55 "new version" to take advantage of that instead of going with another 40V-ish platform just for the saws.


I agree on the vacs though. These are heavily toned down due to their typical duty cycle.

They (would) run just fine from the small 3.1Ah 5-cell bats while at it. So there a "low power" adapter may work out. It may even be worth it specifically for the vacs use case and any bulk would be a non-issue.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Festool TS60 K ?
« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2022, 08:08 PM »
The gain in motor efficiency is way more than the few extra losses in wiring.