Author Topic: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review (Read 53339 times)

dutchie · « **Reply #60 on:** August 13, 2015, 06:36 AM »

Quote from: MichaelW2014 on August 13, 2015, 05:03 AM

"but when I do that, mine isn't straight." Eh, yuck. Now I am totally put off on the fence.

If we all could agree on some of the fundamental problems with the fence(s) then we could sign a petition or some kind of letter that we could jointly send to Festool to let them know we want a better fence for the CS machines. They might actually take notice.

As far as I know the only 'self squaring' fences on mobile table saws are the Bosch GTS 10 XC and Dewalt DW745 (and some other DeWalt models with the same rack and pinion system)...

But as said here before as long as the fence is parallel to the blade and you only use it as a guide and not bent it out of place it should work just fine...

DJW · « **Reply #61 on:** August 13, 2015, 06:41 AM »

One knob to lock it in front and back, that's the theory, but when I do that, mine isn't straight.
[/quote]

With mine its a two knob job. I tighten the large knob which locks the fence at the front only, this pulls the fence square so it often does visibly move. Then turn the lever to lock the fence front and back.
If you just use the lever it will lock it on the piss every time.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #62 on:** August 13, 2015, 06:47 AM »

it sounds like when you try to adjust the rip fence to make it straight it moves. this means you cannot make repeated cuts of a certain size after you move the fence. this seems to be a bad design for anyone who needs precision.

in my case, the miter fence cannot be adjusted to make it square with the table.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #63 on:** August 13, 2015, 07:32 AM »

Festool has requested more proof of the problem with my miter fence. I took these images today.

Here you see there is 2mm+ of feeler gauges under the fence.

wrightwoodwork · « **Reply #64 on:** August 13, 2015, 08:48 AM »

You would properly have being better keeping the square flat on the table of the saw then placing the feeler guage against the side fence down the bottom as I guess thats where the gap will be. The fence being 2mm off the table isn't really an issue its more the fence over hang in the head area. If the fence was tight down then it would be tight to turn around as would scrape on on the table. A smaller gap would be nice though. I did check the fence on the erika for square off the table and it just a fraction leans back maybe .5mm so a tiny gap at the top and is .5mm off the table all I know is that when I set to rip 182mm then if I check it will be on the area of the black line on my rule at 182 mm. Then I can move the fence to another size then move back and it will accurate as humanly possible

Holmz · « **Reply #65 on:** August 13, 2015, 09:12 AM »

Quote from: MichaelW2014 on August 13, 2015, 07:32 AM

Festool has requested more proof of the problem with my miter fence. I took these images today.

Here you see there is 2mm+ of feeler gauges under the fence.

It seem that it would be easier if it leaned away as then all thinknesses would cut the same.

I think you have 4 choices:
1/2) Leave it as is:
- And love it
- And sell it
3/4) Get it fixed:
- And love it
- And sell it

I would think getting it fixed seems like the basis of the optimum approach.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #66 on:** August 13, 2015, 01:12 PM »

Quote from: wrightwoodwork on August 13, 2015, 08:48 AM

You would properly have being better keeping the square flat on the table of the saw then placing the feeler guage against the side fence down the bottom as I guess thats where the gap will be. The fence being 2mm off the table isn't really an issue its more the fence over hang in the head area. If the fence was tight down then it would be tight to turn around as would scrape on on the table. A smaller gap would be nice though. I did check the fence on the erika for square off the table and it just a fraction leans back maybe .5mm so a tiny gap at the top and is .5mm off the table all I know is that when I set to rip 182mm then if I check it will be on the area of the black line on my rule at 182 mm. Then I can move the fence to another size then move back and it will accurate as humanly possible

@wrightwoodwork
Oh hey, that's not what i was trying to show. I was trying to show that the fence is square to the table when it is 2mm+ taller. In other words, the fence is too short and this is why it leans over toward the blade you could say.

If my fence leaned backward, as yours does, at least it would be easy to figure out the distance of the blade from the fence. in my case, this is difficult and an estimate is probably my best option. As my main interest in furniture making, which requires intricate joinery, as well as picture frame making, which also requires precision, getting out the slop in always important and often necessary.

As i do not yet own a jointer/thicknesser-which might allow me to make micro adjustments to my cuts-my table saw cuts are even more so important.
§
Sorry to hear the fence for your Erika is not dead on. Join the club?

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #67 on:** August 13, 2015, 01:16 PM »

Quote from: Holmz on August 13, 2015, 09:12 AM

Quote from: MichaelW2014 on August 13, 2015, 07:32 AM
Festool has requested more proof of the problem with my miter fence. I took these images today.

Here you see there is 2mm+ of feeler gauges under the fence.

It seem that it would be easier if it leaned away as then all thinknesses would cut the same.

I think you have 4 choices:
1/2) Leave it as is:
- And love it
- And sell it
3/4) Get it fixed:
- And love it
- And sell it

I would think getting it fixed seems like the basis of the optimum approach.

I was wondering when you were going to show up on this thread.

Thanks for chopping it up into nice parts for me. Yeah, get if fixed and love it is my first choice right now. I really need to love it because I won't be able to replace it for 1-2 years. Plus, I think it might be difficult to sell because I live in Greece.
§
I am hoping that Festool will finally give in and give me a fair deal on this problem with a replacement miter fence.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #68 on:** August 13, 2015, 01:20 PM »

Quote from: wrightwoodwork on August 13, 2015, 08:48 AM

You would properly have being better keeping the square flat on the table of the saw then placing the feeler guage against the side fence down the bottom as I guess thats where the gap will be. The fence being 2mm off the table isn't really an issue its more the fence over hang in the head area. If the fence was tight down then it would be tight to turn around as would scrape on on the table. A smaller gap would be nice though. I did check the fence on the erika for square off the table and it just a fraction leans back maybe .5mm so a tiny gap at the top and is .5mm off the table all I know is that when I set to rip 182mm then if I check it will be on the area of the black line on my rule at 182 mm. Then I can move the fence to another size then move back and it will accurate as humanly possible

I wonder how accurate the fence on the hammer K3 is. Or, especially, the fence on the inca table saws (but I suppose you can fit your own miter on those because they have t-tracks (correct me if i am wrong)).

wrightwoodwork · « **Reply #69 on:** August 13, 2015, 01:53 PM »

Little question for you the part that the aluminium fence clamps to when you take it off, is that square. If that part of the fence isn't square it might cause the issue that the fence clamps onto not the actual fence being short in height. A mate has the hammer not sure the model the rip fence is solid as would expect yet it had no rack and pinion or fine adjustment. Which is always handy to have. Just curious as you don't have a planer do you use hand planes to get the timber smooth straight and square or is it all done with the sanders

Holmz · « **Reply #70 on:** August 13, 2015, 06:15 PM »

Quote from: MichaelW2014 on August 13, 2015, 01:16 PM

[.

...

I was wondering when you were going to show up on this thread.

Thanks for chopping it up into nice parts for me. Yeah, get if fixed and love it is my first choice right now. I really need to love it because I won't be able to replace it for 1-2 years. Plus, I think it might be difficult to sell because I live in Greece.
§
I am hoping that Festool will finally give in and give me a fair deal on this problem with a replacement miter fence.
[/quote]

If they (Festool) want it in their hands in order to fix it, then you either need to hire a van or a courier company to move it to them.
Once it is fixed then you can determine whether it is "fit for task" for your needs.

You can always sell it at some point if it still gives you grief.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #71 on:** August 14, 2015, 02:14 AM »

Quote from: Holmz on August 13, 2015, 06:15 PM

Quote from: MichaelW2014 on August 13, 2015, 01:16 PM
[.
...

I was wondering when you were going to show up on this thread. Thanks for chopping it up into nice parts for me. Yeah, get if fixed and love it is my first choice right now. I really need to love it because I won't be able to replace it for 1-2 years. Plus, I think it might be difficult to sell because I live in Greece.
§
I am hoping that Festool will finally give in and give me a fair deal on this problem with a replacement miter fence.

If they (Festool) want it in their hands in order to fix it, then you either need to hire a van or a courier company to move it to them.
Once it is fixed then you can determine whether it is "fit for task" for your needs.

You can always sell it at some point if it still gives you grief.
[/quote]

yeah, but i am trying to avoid this. and the regional festool technician has agreed with me that the fence needs to be replaced. it's hard for me to get things done in this country, which are simple tasks back in the US.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #72 on:** August 14, 2015, 02:23 AM »

Quote from: wrightwoodwork on August 13, 2015, 01:53 PM

Little question for you the part that the aluminium fence clamps to when you take it off, is that square. If that part of the fence isn't square it might cause the issue that the fence clamps onto not the actual fence being short in height. A mate has the hammer not sure the model the rip fence is solid as would expect yet it had no rack and pinion or fine adjustment. Which is always handy to have. Just curious as you don't have a planer do you use hand planes to get the timber smooth straight and square or is it all done with the sanders

I have not looked into whether the v groove slot is square. i would have to think about how to go about doing that. i assume it is square because my fence seems to have the same problem on all sides of the table.
§
i get my wood planed by the people who usually sell the wood to me. but they usually do a very mediocre job which drives me totally fucking bonkers. not having a planer is the bane of my woodworking existence at this point. i am unwilling to buy a crappy machine so i have to deal with these sloppy wood dealers and take what they give me. it's a long story. greeks are not perfectionists. there is only one greek perfectionist who works with wood, who i am aware of. this anomaly is a friend but he doesn't yet have a jointer/planer and if he did, he lives very far away and also i wouldn't want to trouble him too much. etc

i have a hand plane by lie nielsen but i gave up on trying to master the craft of squaring timber in this manner. i really don't like doing it.

wrightwoodwork · « **Reply #73 on:** August 14, 2015, 06:31 AM »

I'm not meaning the v groove on the side of table more this part not sure if similar idea to the erika. Here is a couple of pics to get van idea of the area

greg mann · « **Reply #74 on:** August 14, 2015, 10:19 AM »

There is definitely something wrong with you miter fence. Mine sits right on the table with no gap and it is square to the table within.1mm which is of no consequence to me. In fact, I cannot tighten the clamp under the v groove to force a gap even if I am trying. By the time it is tight the fence is in contact with the table. I can the adjust for width of cut and, while the fence is still touching the table it is not difficult to move and tightens in place easily.

I do have the csla fence and find it very accurate. Like Alex, I have disabled the fine adjuster as I could not get used to it. YMMV. I do like being able to slide the fence toward me and rip in the 'Euro' manner which, of course, could also be done with the miter fence when used for ripping.

It would be nice if you could locate another miter fence for comparison but it seems like they may be rare in your region. Perhaps your representative could arrange for one to be sent for comparison and if it is right you could exchange.

I went back to the original post and noticed you said the fence was bowed. I would check the fence extrusion against a known straightedge. If your fence is sitting 2mm off the table something must be forcing out of alignment. This is a case where Festool needs to step up and help you.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #75 on:** August 14, 2015, 10:45 AM »

Quote from: greg mann on August 14, 2015, 10:19 AM

There is definitely something wrong with you miter fence. Mine sits right on the table with no gap and it is square to the table within.1mm which is of no consequence to me. In fact, I cannot tighten the clamp under the v groove to force a gap even if I am trying. By the time it is tight the fence is in contact with the table. I can the adjust for width of cut and, while the fence is still touching the table it is not difficult to move and tightens in place easily.

I do have the csla fence and find it very accurate. Like Alex, I have disabled the fine adjuster as I could not get used to it. YMMV. I do like being able to slide the fence toward me and rip in the 'Euro' manner which, of course, could also be done with the miter fence when used for ripping.

It would be nice if you could locate another miter fence for comparison but it seems like they may be rare in your region. Perhaps your representative could arrange for one to be sent for comparison and if it is right you could exchange.

I went back to the original post and noticed you said the fence was bowed. I would check the fence extrusion against a known straightedge. If your fence is sitting 2mm off the table something must be forcing out of alignment. This is a case where Festool needs to step up and help you.

Sorry for the confusion. The fence does not sit 2mm off the table, as indicated in the photo. When the fence is tightened to the v groove it sits flat on the table. But it sits flat on the table with a forward slant. The reason why it slants forward is because the fence part of the miter fence is 2mm too short. it needs to be taller in order for the fence part of the miter fence to sit at 90 degrees.

Well, unfortunately a comparison is not possible, but i am waiting to see how they respond to this latest series of photos. i hope they understand my problem and are not confused as you were.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #76 on:** August 14, 2015, 10:48 AM »

Quote from: wrightwoodwork on August 14, 2015, 06:31 AM

I'm not meaning the v groove on the side of table more this part not sure if similar idea to the erika. Here is a couple of pics to get van idea of the area

Ah, yes, I see what you mean now. I have not test that part to see if it is square. But there is some play in this slot when one can move the fence up and down slightly before tightening it so that, in theory, it could sit higher or lower, causing less of a slat. I have tried to get this to happen but was unable to achieve any definite positive results.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #77 on:** August 18, 2015, 10:45 AM »

festool refuses to honor warranty despite sending pictures which fairly obviously show defect in miter fence.

No reply for my message to festool international which i sent over a week ago.

Deeply disatisfied with tool and with customer service.

Holmz · « **Reply #78 on:** August 18, 2015, 05:07 PM »

A non-working saw seems like it is of little to no use.

I know that there are cabs/taxis in Greece, and moving trucks., or you need to buy the fence outright.
If it was the first 30 days you would have been fine, but at this point you've waited too long.

Alex · « **Reply #79 on:** August 18, 2015, 07:31 PM »

Quote from: MichaelW2014 on August 18, 2015, 10:45 AM

festool refuses to honor warranty despite sending pictures which fairly obviously show defect in miter fence.

Since you say you've send pictures I assume you still didn't give them the opportunity to look at the saw themselves?

Seems to me in this case it's only logical for them to refuse any warranty repair. It is normal they only honour a warranty repair after their own qualified service personel had a look.

Michael, do yourself a favour, bring them the saw.

Peter Halle · « **Reply #80 on:** August 18, 2015, 08:15 PM »

Michael,

I have read all your posts regarding this and as Alex said you need to find a way to get the saw back to Festool. I know from reading your posts that it will be inconvenient for you but sometimes that kind of stuff happens in life.

Until you do that you are not going to be happy, shaming Festool on an internet forum into making an exception to their policies probably isn't going to work, and you will still not be able to use the saw in the manner that you hoped to.

Peter

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #81 on:** August 19, 2015, 02:22 AM »

Gentlemen, thank you for your concern, I really appreciate it. You are right, the saw needs to be seen by a tech if this is their policy. But, they should come to me, and their own tech here in athens declared it is obvious that it needs to be replaced or repaired. I have this in writing via email.

Nonetheless, my retailer relinquished the email address for her colleague at festool. Yesterday I emailed him directly. My email was forwarded to another person who wrote me a long and considerate letter. I have attached it below. I want to be fair about this situation. All I want is a tool that does what it is supposed to do. A fence that sits at exactly 90 degrees with the table is an obvious requirement for a table saw, in my opinion, especially at the price I paid ($2,400).

So, they are going to take care of the situation by replacing the entire machine. It seems they will "probably" pay for shipping; but I await finally word on that today.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #82 on:** August 19, 2015, 02:23 AM »

Dear Mr. Rowan Wood,

First of all I want to apologize for the long handling time in that case.
Unfortunately I have no contact data than your e-mail address.
Otherwise I would have contacted you personally.
We know that this is an unsatisfactory situation for you.
I think that we had a communication problem and misunderstood each other.

We did an analysis to understand your problem with the CS 70 here in our factory where we produce the saws.
Probably your machine is affected with an machining error, which causes your mentioned gaps.
However to be sure it is necessary to have the affected CS 70 incl. fence in our workshop. In order to keep you workable quick we created the following offer.

Our proposal 1:
We will send you a brand new CS 70, which is checked by the quality department in detail, so you can go on with your working.
However you will receive an invoice for the new CS 70.
Afterwards it would be great, if you will send the affected CS 70 incl. fence to my hands for further analysis.
After receiving the affected CS 70 you will get credit advice, so there is no disadvantage for you.

Proposal 2:
You will send the affected CS 70 incl. fence to my hands.
After receiving the affected CS 70, we will send you a brand new CS 70, which is checked by the quality department in detail, so you can go on with your working.

After checking the affected machine, we will appreciate your effort in that case (sending the machine to Germany) e.g. with consumable material.
Probably it is also possible to handle the transportation with our DHL-account. I will check this tomorrow.

Did you already register your affected machine?
If yes, we will organize the re-registration to your new CS 70, so you will have no other problems with that.

I hope that my clarification above helps you to understand, that your concern is very important to us and we are willing to help you.

If you have any questions do not hesitate to contact me.

Kind regards

David Kiel

jobsworth · « **Reply #83 on:** August 19, 2015, 03:14 AM »

Sounds like they are taking care of you and the situation

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #84 on:** August 19, 2015, 03:59 AM »

Quote from: Peter Halle on August 18, 2015, 08:15 PM

Until you do that you are not going to be happy, shaming Festool on an internet forum into making an exception to their policies probably isn't going to work, and you will still not be able to use the saw in the manner that you hoped to.

If someone has reason to shame a company then the company should be shamed. My customers are rarely displeased with my service because I give them exactly what they pay for. When a company deceives it's customer or fails to make good on an agreement, then they should be shamed, and more.

I bought a saw. The saw does not do what it should do. It is their responsibility to make sure that this saw does what I paid for. If it doesn't, then seller has violated the terms of the sale. If it doesn't, then it is not an arm's length transaction.

All within reason, yes, but when something is obvious, then there should not be a two month struggle, or whatnot.

I say this with all due respect, Peter. I am frustrated and distressed by this situation. I don't have much patience left for Festool. I think they dropped the ball on me. I don't like being treated like this by big companies. I love that the internet revolution has put more power in the hands of customers.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #85 on:** August 19, 2015, 04:06 AM »

Quote from: jobsworth on August 19, 2015, 03:14 AM

Sounds like they are taking care of you and the situation

I'm cautiously optimistic. But about twenty minutes ago I received a message from another person at festool who offers a different course of action, much less friendly and one which could lead to further problems, thus turning this two or three month contention into a much longer struggle for 90 degrees. Obviously if i were a rich man i would just buy a new miter fence and hope it works.

Big G · « **Reply #86 on:** August 19, 2015, 05:20 AM »

Quote from: MichaelW2014 on August 13, 2015, 07:32 AM

Festool has requested more proof of the problem with my miter fence. I took these images today.

Here you see there is 2mm+ of feeler gauges under the fence.
(Attachment Link)

You have to lift a 300mm triangular square by 2mm to make it perpendicular to your fence which roughly relates to the fence being about 1/3 mm out top to bottom, no wonder Festool refuse to replace it, it is well inside the requires tolerances of a guide fence. By the way I need a 6mm packer to get mine perpendicular and I have never experienced any problems in ripping something to size.

rizzoa13 · « **Reply #87 on:** August 19, 2015, 05:23 AM »

If you acted a little less entitled then people (in general) would be more inclined to help you. Your acting like a child by trying to bad mouth a company on the Internet while simultaneously stating "they should come to me." You were able to get the saw home when you bought it so your perfectly capable of figuring out a way to get it back to them. Try being a little more human it'll get you far in life.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #88 on:** August 19, 2015, 06:03 AM »

Quote from: Big G on August 19, 2015, 05:20 AM

Quote from: MichaelW2014 on August 13, 2015, 07:32 AM
Festool has requested more proof of the problem with my miter fence. I took these images today.

Here you see there is 2mm+ of feeler gauges under the fence.
(Attachment Link)

You have to lift a 300mm triangular square by 2mm to make it perpendicular to your fence which roughly relates to the fence being about 1/3 mm out top to bottom, no wonder Festool refuse to replace it, it is well inside the requires tolerances of a guide fence. By the way I need a 6mm packer to get mine perpendicular and I have never experienced any problems in ripping something to size.

If you think that is ok for a 2,000E machine then I wonder what kind of work you make. That is not acceptable for me.

MichaelW2014 · « **Reply #89 on:** August 19, 2015, 06:07 AM »

Quote from: rizzoa13 on August 19, 2015, 05:23 AM

If you acted a little less entitled then people (in general) would be more inclined to help you. Your acting like a child by trying to bad mouth a company on the Internet while simultaneously stating "they should come to me." You were able to get the saw home when you bought it so your perfectly capable of figuring out a way to get it back to them. Try being a little more human it'll get you far in life.

I have been honest, human and fair. I have tried to be reasonable while at same time standing up for what I believe is right. I am not acting entitled and I think that your perception is wrong. Maybe you are so accustomed to getting reamed by companies that you no longer see it as a bad thing. You think that is the norm, and you accept it/like it.

am not going to repeat myself again on this subject and explain and defend my position once again. I have a fence that is not right. I bought a machine that is supposed to be accurate. I didn't get what I paid for. Whose fault is that?