Author Topic: Festool Nomenclature  (Read 4633 times)

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Offline DeformedTree

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Festool Nomenclature
« on: March 04, 2021, 01:12 PM »
Edit: This thread was forked off from a different thread as it went tangent. The basis was folks un-sure what version of a particular model/tool they were looking at/how to identify. This was not an original post.

Tangent Resumed below.

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If only Festool gave their products better naming like   Like generation naming or something, so people at a quick glance could know what they have, or what something is.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 06:38 PM by DeformedTree »

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Offline DynaGlide

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2021, 01:36 PM »
@DeformedTree How about "The New Kapex"? It works for Apple with their products.
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Offline josiahjlee

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2021, 03:27 PM »
I know what you mean, but respectfully, I would say that would not be a great way to go. Apple does this because they want you to upgrade every time a new version comes out. I will give Festool a bit of the benefit of the doubt here, but I think their strategy is essentially the opposite. They do make improvements and new generations, but they don’t want anyone to feel like their “older” generation is out of date or worthless. They want brand and tool continuity.

And as a result, we get great resale value on tools of we ever decide to sell them. The moment they start adopting the “new model” Apple approach or using generations, resale value could take a big hit. I really think the other tool brands do the generation stuff because they are sometimes throw away tools. No way you’d really try to take much time to sell a well used dewalt impact driver IMO.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2021, 04:19 PM »
Apple is pretty good,  in the past with.  Powermac G3, G4,  etc.   Now iPhone 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,  etc

They have stuff that is "mid-2013" and such, it's very confusing to figure out what you have.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5455
Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2021, 04:23 PM »
When Apple releases a new model it is significantly better than the previous. You are not required to upgrade and your old model works just as good as it did the previous week.

You are right that the resale value takes a big hit.

Few Festool upgrades are substantial. The introduction of the TS 75 to replace the AT 65 is the only one I can think of. Maybe the newer brushless sanders?

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1398
Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2021, 04:32 PM »
Yeah, most people understand the changes are small.  Only revolutionary changes will kill value (when they add lights to the routers  [smile]).

Realistically, folks just want to be able to know what they have.  Just like the issue with the SKUs, where they change and people don't know what changed.  It's compounded by the issue that "the box" it comes in gets changed, and that changes the SKU, which most companies products don't have that kind of link to "the packaging".

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9648
Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2021, 10:23 AM »
Few Festool upgrades are substantial. The introduction of the TS 75 to replace the AT 65 is the only one I can think of. Maybe the newer brushless sanders?

Don't forget the Kapex Michael.  [poke]

Talking about the TS 75, it has been removed from the German, Netherlands & International websites and has been labeled as Temporarily Unavailable on the US & Canadian websites.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2021, 10:27 AM »
Few Festool upgrades are substantial. The introduction of the TS 75 to replace the AT 65 is the only one I can think of. Maybe the newer brushless sanders?

Don't forget the Kapex Michael.  [poke]

Talking about the TS 75, it has been removed from the German, Netherlands & International websites and has been labeled as Temporarily Unavailable on the US & Canadian websites.

Everything has had to cut back during COVID, thus the boards are thinner now, TS75s are out of work.

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1676
Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2021, 10:46 AM »
@DeformedTree its not that only thin boards are available, it’s that nobody can afford the inflated prices for thicker boards.  [eek]
Ron

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9648
Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2021, 11:02 AM »
You guys are funny... [popcorn] [thumbs up] [popcorn]

However it won't be so funny when Festool announces their new TS 35. [tongue]

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2021, 01:09 PM »
Few Festool upgrades are substantial. The introduction of the TS 75 to replace the AT 65 is the only one I can think of. Maybe the newer brushless sanders?

Don't forget the Kapex Michael.  [poke]

Talking about the TS 75, it has been removed from the German, Netherlands & International websites and has been labeled as Temporarily Unavailable on the US & Canadian websites.

I meant incremental model changes like various versions of the TS 55. New tools like the Domino and Kapex etc. are huge exceptions, more like the iPhone than putting faster processors and more memory in the same box for the same price.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7776
Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2021, 01:55 PM »
When Apple releases a new model it is significantly better than the previous. You are not required to upgrade and your old model works just as good as it did the previous week.

Apple brings out a new model every year, and the changes are so small you hardly notice them.

It has also been proven that Apple deliberately slows down older phones with sneaky OS patches..

Few Festool upgrades are substantial. The introduction of the TS 75 to replace the AT 65 is the only one I can think of. Maybe the newer brushless sanders?

There was actually an 85 mm model back then, so it is more that the TS 75 was a downgrade in cutting capability, just like removing the AT 65 was also a downgrade because now you only had the TS 55. The new saws were technical improvements of course, but not substantial.

The only substantial upgrade from Festool I have seen is the new TKS-80 with SawStop technology.
 
I really hope they will once make a TS-65 saw, with a 1500 watt motor. The 55 struggles too often.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2021, 02:27 PM »
TKS-80 is just a new thing, not an upgrade to anything.

Deciding what saw size to design/build/market would not be easy.  Finding a balance between size and weight, etc.  Making a 45, 55, 65, 75, 85, 95 saw isn't practical for a company to do.

I'd guess either the TS75 isn't a huge seller and if they are having parts/production/etc constraints, it's a good model to put on hold for a bit. Or maybe a new saw will be coming.  Maybe they will bring a TS85 and unify some parts with the HK85

Offline Alex

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2021, 04:33 PM »
TKS-80 is just a new thing, not an upgrade to anything.

The TKS-80 is the SawStop equipped upgrade for the CS70. But they realised they could not make it a pull saw and I am sure they deeply regret that they had to settle for a standard table saw.

Deciding what saw size to design/build/market would not be easy.  Finding a balance between size and weight, etc.  Making a 45, 55, 65, 75, 85, 95 saw isn't practical for a company to do.

You should get yourself acquainted with the number of saws other companies produce.

Even Festool used to make a 45, 55, 65 and 85 in the past. In fact, the 65 cut depth is one of the most sold sizes for hand-held circular saws.

65 is just the right size for a man like me, and I am very average in everything, including size. I have a DeWalt DW65 saw and used to have the AT-65, and I like them both so much better than the TS-55. The TS-55 is really only good for cutting sheet material up to 28 mm and that's it. Would have helped if the 55 didn't have such a weak motor.
 

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2021, 04:55 PM »
I'm well aware of how many sizes are out there. The issue is it's crazy for one company to make a lot of sizes all at the same time. Mafell makes a lot of sizes, but they go from 55 to gigantic.

If festool sold all those sizes at the same time, you would have endless threads here of people debating what size to buy. And sales volume of each model would go down.

I think the 55 size is good, most folks are cutting plywood/sheet material with it, so you only are cutting sub 20mm material, and you still have the ability to cut 2x material (1.5" thick). It's a good all around size.  It's when things go bigger, I think some of the sizes are off.  I would make the 85 saws be 90s (well, maybe 95 to account for rail), then you could cut 4x material (3.5" thick). Right now they come just short.  The Mafell Erika is one that makes me wonder, if they made it 90, not 85, then people could get more cross cut function from it.

Like I said, it's finding the right balance. You might like the 65 size, others might think it's way too big. What everyone wants is all over the map.


Offline Svar

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2021, 04:57 PM »
Deciding what saw size to design/build/market would not be easy.  Finding a balance between size and weight, etc.  Making a 45, 55, 65, 75, 85, 95 saw isn't practical for a company to do.
Well, Mafell, a much smaller company makes 45, 55, 65 ,85, 130, 145, 165, and 185 saws and manage just fine.

Offline jeffinsgf

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2021, 05:45 PM »
I'm not sure you can say that the TS-75 replaced the AT-65. When I bought mine, you had three choices, 55, 65, or 75. I went for Mama Bear.

Offline Alex

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2021, 06:08 PM »
I'm well aware of how many sizes are out there. The issue is it's crazy for one company to make a lot of sizes all at the same time.

The issue is that most of the well known brands make a lot of sizes all at the same time.

If festool sold all those sizes at the same time, you would have endless threads here of people debating what size to buy.

Oh, yes, we'd really hate that here, talking about tools. The idea!  [tongue]

And sales volume of each model would go down.

Irrelevant, if the number of sold saws remains the same. Maybe it would even go up, as people would have more choices. Some of us maniacs might even get two.

I think the 55 size is good, most folks are cutting plywood/sheet material with it, so you only are cutting sub 20mm material, and you still have the ability to cut 2x material (1.5" thick). It's a good all around size. 

No, it is not a good all-round size. It is really only for the small stuff. 65 is a good all-round size. And the lack of power of the 55 means you can forget about cutting lots of hardwoods when you go over 3 cm.

You always seem to be very opinionated about every tool, but do actually have any experience working with them? Have you worked with the 55? It is the least powerful circular saw I have ever had in my hands. It isn't even the 55 mm cut that that annoys me, it's the lack of power. I am sure if I get the chance I'll upgrade to the Mafell MT55.

Like I said, it's finding the right balance. You might like the 65 size, others might think it's way too big. What everyone wants is all over the map.

Since most saws range from 45 to 85 these days, 65 is dead in the middle. 55 certainly isn't. Most people do not want to cut sheet goods only.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 06:10 PM by Alex »

Offline mino

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2021, 06:18 PM »
I really hope they will once make a TS-65 saw, with a 1500 watt motor. The 55 struggles too often.
The market is now settled at 160/165mm blades for the "casual" track saws so even the TS75 is "in danger" IMO these days. Would not be surprised if Festool pulled HK85 to US eventually so they can decom the TS75 and have just the HK as the "big track saw" everywhere.

But I can see a new TS55 down the line to match the TSC on power.
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Offline Svar

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2021, 06:29 PM »
Metabo KT 18 LTX 66 BL plunge saw is 165mm blade with 61/66 mm depth of cut on/off track. I wonder how they pulled this off. The radius of arbor assembly decreased by ~10 mm comparing to competition in order for it to plunge deeper.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 06:34 PM by Svar »

Offline MrToolJunkie

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2021, 06:46 PM »
The key is to use the right saw for the application. There are different sizes because so many different needs. That is why Mafell has so many sizes - small trim saws that are light weight and huge timber frame saws that can cut large beams.

The 55/65/75/85 is the sweet spot in my mind for most general purpose cutting. If I were cutting 4x all day, then I would consider a Mafell MK130 saw that could handle that depth of cut. The bigger the saw the heavier and more unwieldly it gets - swinging 30 - 35 pounds all day with a large saw to cut 19mm sheet good does not make sense. Even my Mafell KSS80 is heavy for extended cutting sessions - it is absolutely the right saw to cut down 12/4 slabs, but I do not want to run it to cut sheet goods.

My TS75 is ideal for hardwood and 8/4 stock. It also works on sheet goods and it was my only track saw for the first 5-7 years of using Festool. It can even get a little heavy swinging it around all day and due to the blade and depth of cut, it is not ideally suited to working on the MFT with thinner stock where you need the right side anti-splinter insert (without making a modification). My TS55/TSC55/Mafell MT55, however, are all perfect for sheet goods and 6/4 and thinner stock. With the right blade, they all have adequate power for the task at hand. The MT55 is slightly more powerful than the TS75 FWIF.

HK saws are great at smaller trim work and working off the rail. The smaller Mafell saw (which I do not have) seems like a great trim saw and hardwood flooring type saw.

If I was limited to only one saw, then I would probably opt for the TS75 due to overall depth of cut and versatility. If I could only have one smaller saw, that would be a tough choice - I might actually just go with my TSC55 - great torque and convenience of being able to cut anywhere and not worry about outlets.

I have not been disappointed with any of my saw purchases - they all work as advertised and I get great results from each of them.

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2021, 06:53 PM »
I would buy a TS75 if they were available, but it would really just be an indulgence at this point for the occasional thicker piece.
I really do use my 55 for sheet goods the greatest percentage of the time. The rest is solid surface material, which is even thinner, at only 12mm. Once in a while, I have to cut down a completed laminate countertop, but even those are only 40mm.
I like that the TS55 is so light and simple to use for my needs. We had a TS75 in the old building, before the fire, but it was rarely used. It was purchased years ago, basically for one specific job. A very long bevel cut was needed on an already installed piece. It would have been nearly impossible to do any other way. It was the company's first Festool purchase and I didn't have any of my own at that time. It was always there in the tool room, but just kind of forgotten most of the time. I did use it occasionally, but it was usually for an "emergency" type situation where a fully assembled cabinet needed to be cut down for some reason.
It was not replaced by the company after the fire because of the infrequent use after that initial time of need.
During the move to a temporary facility, I saw the need for me to have a cutting station of my own. Things were in some kind of limbo for a short period without having all of the equipment that we had before, while we waited for it to come in or get installed/wired. Some of it just wasn't going to happen strictly because it was a temporary facility, it would have to wait for the permanent building.
The TS55 served me very well in that situation and still does.
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Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2021, 07:47 PM »

And sales volume of each model would go down.

Irrelevant, if the number of sold saws remains the same. Maybe it would even go up, as people would have more choices. Some of us maniacs might even get two.

I think the 55 size is good, most folks are cutting plywood/sheet material with it, so you only are cutting sub 20mm material, and you still have the ability to cut 2x material (1.5" thick). It's a good all around size. 

No, it is not a good all-round size. It is really only for the small stuff. 65 is a good all-round size. And the lack of power of the 55 means you can forget about cutting lots of hardwoods when you go over 3 cm.

You always seem to be very opinionated about every tool, but do actually have any experience working with them? Have you worked with the 55? It is the least powerful circular saw I have ever had in my hands. It isn't even the 55 mm cut that that annoys me, it's the lack of power. I am sure if I get the chance I'll upgrade to the Mafell MT55.


You keep linking power and blade size and even point out the MT55.  I haven't run into a power issue with my TS55, but that doesn't mean others don't. But nothing about its power has to do with blade size, they could make it more powerful.  The comment was on the size of the blade, not the power of the saw. 

Yes, I do think most folks are using the 55 size saws for sheet goods, that's clearly what such size saws are optimized for.  If folks are regularly cutting thicker stuff, then they will probably own a different saw.  If someone is cutting sheet goods 90% of the time, they probably do not want a over sized saw for that job.  I have much bigger saws for when needed, I certainly don't use them for breaking down plywood.

Like I pointed out earlier, Mafell makes a lot of size of saws, you pay for it. Yet they have just one size plunge cut track saw at 55.  Get to the big saws, paying an extra grand every step up to get another 20mm of depth.

Offline Thompmd

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2021, 09:11 PM »
I opted for the TS75,works great for up to 10/4 hardwood slabs and recently got a TSC55, actually was a little hesitant due to it only being 55mm, time will tell
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Offline MrToolJunkie

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2021, 11:12 PM »
I opted for the TS75,works great for up to 10/4 hardwood slabs and recently got a TSC55, actually was a little hesitant due to it only being 55mm, time will tell

I think that is a GREAT combination and covers all of your bases.

Offline Alex

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2021, 01:09 AM »
If someone is cutting sheet goods 90% of the time, they probably do not want a over sized saw for that job.

Yes indeed, but who is actually cutting only sheet goods 90% of the time? In reality as a carpenter you need a lot more different wood types and sizes.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1398
Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2021, 02:32 PM »
So, ignoring that "Carpenter" may be loosing something in translation far as scope for a moment.

Yes, pretty sure sheet goods is what vast majority of folks use their track saws for the vast majority of the time. That's what the saws were invented for. More practical than owning a panel saw, vastly easier than using a table saw, and more accurate than clamping a board/level to the sheet and cutting it with a skill saw.  Clearly they can be used for other things and people do, but how much ripping the edge off a thick board, or trimming the ends off a deck does anyone do compared to how much sheet goods they cut.

Assuming carpenter you mean someone who builds houses. For non-sheet goods, you either use a 12" compound sliding miter saw for all your framing lumber, or a skill saw and speed square, which in fancy Festool world, you buy yourself a HK saw for doing that work.  If I was building houses, I'd own both a TS55, and then either an HK55, or probably just go and sneak a HK85 in the country, or more realistically buy the Mafell KSS80/K85 saw.

If one is a furniture builder, that is where you would expect the large plunging track saw, and thats where Festool has the TS75, which makes for a complement to the TS55.   

It's pretty easy to see most folks having a 55 saw from any of the brands, as they all have pretty much decided that is the size. And then if you need a big saw to go with it, you get either a TS75 or a HK85/K85 type saw and you pick it based one what you cut more (framing lumber vs table tops).

Offline Alex

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2021, 03:02 PM »
With a carpenter I always understood that was someone who makes things out of wood, be it houses, furniture, whatever. I can't be apprised of what every local dialect turns the meaning into. They told me it is what Jesus did, it is what I do.  [tongue]

And whatever I am making out of wood, and I do that a lot, be it working on a house or a closet or a table, sheet materials is just a small part of the equation. And I know my 1500 watt AT 65 always cut whatever I needed to cut, without question, and so does my DW65, which at also 1500 watt seems even twice as strong as the AT 65. But unless I cut 18 mm sheets goods, the TS 55 fails constantly with the thicker and harder stuff.   

So stop explaining so adamantly to me why we can't have a 65 mm saw, because I don't want to grab another saw for every other plank I need to cut, what, you don't like choice?

Offline Paul_HKI

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2021, 04:22 PM »
I don't know if it's Covid-19 and the social pressure that's brought to bear on some folks but the pettiness of the complaints I'm reading on this forum are pretty irksome.

The TS55 is a fine saw for the folks for whom it suits their purposes. 

If you think the TS55 is underpowered and lacking in the depth of cut, just buy something else.  Festool, Mafell, DeWalt - all offer you alternatives.  I don't get the pointless nature of these complaints.  Don't like what you have?  Sell it and buy something else. 

And as far as the carpenter term goes, you might take the lesson with a little grace.  A carpenter is generally a construction woodworker, whereas a cabinetmaker or joiner is a different trade and deserving of their own descriptor. 

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Offline Coen

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Re: Festool Nomenclature
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2021, 05:43 PM »


Talking about the TS 75, it has been removed from the German, Netherlands & International websites and has been labeled as Temporarily Unavailable on the US & Canadian websites.

Oooh. But the parallel fence is still available  [blink]


You guys are funny... [popcorn] [thumbs up] [popcorn]

However it won't be so funny when Festool announces their new TS 35. [tongue]

That will still cut 19mm panels at 45 degrees using the guiderail, so I bet they will still sell a bunch of those.  [tongue]