Author Topic: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America  (Read 71803 times)

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Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Beginning in a few weeks, select Festool tools and accessories will begin featuring imperial scales instead of metric. The imperial versus metric debate here on the FOG has lots of opinions on both sides, but we hope that offering tools in imperial will allow more craftsmen to integrate Festool into their current processes and work habits. This applies to the US and Canada only and will go into effect on July 5, 2016.

We have more details about it at on the Festool USA blog.

Here are the tools that are moving to imperial:

Item #   New Item #   Description
574553   574690      Planer HL 850 E Imp.
574339   574691      Router OF 1010 EQ Imp.
574342   574692      Router OF 1400 EQ Imp.
574354   574689      Router OF 2200 Imp.
561556   574683      Circular Saw TS 55 REQ Imp.
561438   574684      Circular Saw TS 75 EQ Imp.
561730   574685      Circular Saw TSC 55 REB Li
561718   574686      Circular Saw TSC 55REB Li XL
495717   201182      Parallel Side Fence
495718   201183      Parallel Guide Extension
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2016, 09:05 AM »
Going back to steam power as well?

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3569
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2016, 09:10 AM »

@TylerC, will those tools or any new tools also be available in metric?
Tim

Offline Throwback7r

  • Posts: 294
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2016, 09:11 AM »

@TylerC, will those tools or any new tools also be available in metric?
Tim

With this guy!

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2745
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2016, 09:18 AM »
Going back to steam power as well?

It's OK @Kev , just like Fathers Day is a different month from ours, apparently Fools Day is not on April 1 in NA.  [smile]

I could understand if Festool NA offered both options. Any reading of the FOG should have led to the conclusion that for the NA market both measuring systems have their 'fan' base  and that it would be clever marketing to offer both options.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 09:27 AM by Untidy Shop »
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Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2016, 09:22 AM »

@TylerC, will those tools or any new tools also be available in metric?
Tim

No. These tools will move to imperial only.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2016, 09:27 AM »
While I'm glad to be able to get some imperial tools, eliminating their metric counterparts is a big mistake. I'm all for folks having a choice which system they want to use.
+1

Offline jumpinthefire

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2016, 09:29 AM »
  I almost bought a TS55 last week.

  I much rather have the imperial version. I wonder how long it will take for the average festool retailer to sell all current saws and start selling the new versions.

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 961
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2016, 09:30 AM »
Will the 110V tools sold in England be imperial or metric?

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2016, 09:31 AM »
Will the 110V tools sold in England be imperial or metric?

This does not affect anything outside of the US and Canada. As far as I know, every other country is remaining 100% metric.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 961
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2016, 09:34 AM »
So people in NA that want to stay metric will be able to get their tools from England.

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2016, 09:34 AM »
  I almost bought a TS55 last week.

  I much rather have the imperial version. I wonder how long it will take for the average festool retailer to sell all current saws and start selling the new versions.

Good question. I'd recommend that you talk to your preferred dealer. If they see that people want the imperial tools, they'll be more apt to stock up quickly.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline andrew.wickes

  • Posts: 35
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2016, 09:37 AM »
Good to know. Also curious when it will start hitting the market. I'm gonna be picking up an OF1400 over the 4th of July weekend but if it's hitting everywhere on the 6th, might wait. Looks like I need to call Woodcraft!
"Freedom isn't free"
Festool CXS, OF1400 EQ w/ edge guide, TS 55 REQ, FS 1400/2-LR 32 guide rail

Porter-Cable table saw, Grizzly 6" jointer, Grizzly 14" band saw, Ridgid 13" planer, Dewalt 12" DBSCMS,  Ridgid spindle sander, Ryobi bench top drill press, Dewalt 5" ROS, Dewalt 18v jigsaw, Dewalt 18v circular saw, Dewalt 18v drill, Dewalt 18v impact driver, Dewalt 18v impact wrench, Grizzly 1hp dust collector

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2016, 09:42 AM »
So people in NA that want to stay metric will be able to get their tools from England.

People are free to buy wherever they want ... with the knowledge that warranties and such won't necessarily apply.

I anticipate that the current stock of metric tools will still be floating around for a while here in NA, so nothing will disappear overnight.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2016, 09:44 AM »
While I'm glad to be able to get some imperial tools, eliminating their metric counterparts is a big mistake. I'm all for folks having a choice which system they want to use.

Exactly! Especially as they are already made in metric as it stands. This is possibly one of the most stupid and most ignorant thing I have seen Festool do for a while! Feel sorry for those in NA who are denied the choice. Not an imperial vs metric debate, but criticism of Festool forcing a change when it would be so easy to offer imperial as an alternative, not an imposed decision and keep the current metric line-up!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 09:50 AM by bobfog »

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 1990
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2016, 09:55 AM »

@TylerC, will those tools or any new tools also be available in metric?
Tim

No. These tools will move to imperial only.

Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!  [scared]

Why not dual markings, cannot be that hard to implement? I for one work in metric, my addled brain cannot process adding 3/32's to 5/64's but I can manage 2+2.

As a side note, it surprises me that a very progressive company would take a backwards step on such a basic level. Surely your marketing folks have not concluded that there is 0.00245% increase in sales potential by catering to the US Imperial prejudice?

RMW   
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline deepcreek

  • Posts: 906
    • TimberFire Studio
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2016, 09:55 AM »
This does not affect anything outside of the US and Canada. As far as I know, every other country is remaining 100% metric.

Doesn't Canada use the Metric system?
Joe Adams
TimberFire Studio
Houston, Texas

http://www.facebook.com/timberfire

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2016, 09:58 AM »
Surely your marketing folks have not concluded that there is 0.00245% increase in sales potential by catering to the US Imperial prejudice?

Considering that imperial dominates North America, this move should make Festool more accessible to a much wider group of craftsmen.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 1990
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2016, 09:58 AM »
While I'm glad to be able to get some imperial tools, eliminating their metric counterparts is a big mistake. I'm all for folks having a choice which system they want to use.

Exactly! Especially as they are already made in metric as it stands. This is possibly one of the most stupid and most ignorant thing I have seen Festool do for a while! Feel sorry for those in NA who are denied the choice. Not an imperial vs metric debate, but criticism of Festool forcing a change when it would be so easy to offer imperial as an alternative, not an imposed decision and keep the current metric line-up!

Agree - and it further muddles the market since it is only a partial change with other tools remaining metric. I think this is a major mistake.

My  [2cents] - take it for what it's worth.

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline jumpinthefire

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2016, 10:00 AM »
This does not affect anything outside of the US and Canada. As far as I know, every other country is remaining 100% metric.

Doesn't Canada use the Metric system?

yes we use it for speed,distances, Gas Pumps, Temperature

But we still say a pound of sugar, or a 40 ounces bottle of hard liquor

And all construction stuff is still imperial : ex : 2 by 4 studs 4' by 8' plywood, 54'' by 12' drywall sheets etc..
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 10:04 AM by jumpinthefire »

Offline jonny round boy

  • Posts: 3227
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2016, 10:03 AM »
I also think this is a massive mistake. Offering imperial versions, as an option - yes; Removing the metric versions completely - ridiculous.

I realise that this doesn't affect me in any way, being in the UK, but that doesn't stop me having an opinion [big grin]
Festoolian since February 2006

TS55R EBQ saw - CTL26 - CTL Mini - OF1400EBQ router - KS120 Kapex SCMS - ETS150/3 sander - RO90 sander - DF500 Domino - PDC18/4 drill - PSC420 jigsaw - OFK500 trimmer

Wish list (in no particular order!): Anything not listed above....

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2016, 10:10 AM »
I also think this is a massive mistake. Offering imperial versions, as an option - yes; Removing the metric versions completely - ridiculous.

I realise that this doesn't affect me in any way, being in the UK, but that doesn't stop me having an opinion [big grin]

I'm the same being in the UK. But still this is a forum so all opinions should be equal. I just can't understand the logic of cutting your stock with a tracksaw in imperial then having to switch to metric for the dominos, for example.

Sounds to me that not offering both imperial/metric or at the very least converting all tools to imperial is a half baked job and makes me question the financial stability of Festool USA for settling on such a poor decision that only makes sense if sales are sub-par; but don't have the money to do the necessary work/tooling for changes to be belt and braces and include all the tools in the change.

Offline jamanjeval

  • Posts: 84
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2016, 10:15 AM »
  I almost bought a TS55 last week.

  I much rather have the imperial version. I wonder how long it will take for the average festool retailer to sell all current saws and start selling the new versions.

They include, or once included,  an imperial sticker to go over the metric one that indicates cut depth. All you need to do is peel and stick.

Did something else change that is making you wait? Are the detent depth stops also changing to better align with imperial?

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2016, 10:15 AM »
Sounds like a decision you'd make after way to long smoking crack cocaine. Stupid to the point of hilarious. I'm so glad I live in Australia.

If this story isn't a joke, Festool US management certainly is a joke.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3569
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2016, 10:17 AM »

@TylerC, will those tools or any new tools also be available in metric?
Tim

No. These tools will move to imperial only.

Thanks for your response Tyler.
I appreciate it.
While I understand the reasons, it's an unfortunate decision.

I am glad I bought my tools when I did.
Not that it matters to Festool, but any future purchases I make if not available locally in metric will be imported from Europe.
Tim

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 914
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2016, 10:18 AM »
Canadian Wood-Frame House Construction
provides both metric (SI) and imperial units. The National Building Code of Canada
uses metric units and these govern whenever strict interpretations of Code requirements are required. Imperial units of measure
(feet and inches) are still commonly used for wood-framing materials and house construction technology.

Imperial sizes for lumber are nominal sizes (the rough sawn sizes before planing and dimensional changes resulting from drying). For example, a wood member with a nominal size of 2 × 4 in. has a finished size of about
11⁄2 × 31⁄2 in. The metric dimensions for lumber are actual sizes (for example, 38 × 89 mm).
Every reasonable effort has been made to provide accurate conversions of metric dimensions to imperial equivalents; however, it remains the responsibility of designers
and builders to comply with building code requirements.

As an example of the national building code, here is a excerpt from the code.

To agree with the National Building Code,
the metric spacing of wood framing members
is expressed as ‘soft’ conversions from the actual imperial dimensions. For example, spacing of
12, 16 and 24 inches on centre are converted
to 300, 400 and 600 mm on centre, respectively. In order to suit the imperial sizes of common 1220 × 2440 mm (4 × 8 ft.) panel products, such as gypsum board, OSB and plywood, the actual spacing of framing members has been adjusted
to approximately 305, 406 and 610 mm on centre, respectively.

Canada is metric. All stength testing and certification of lumber fabricated and sold in Canada is done using metric units. Try to find a 3/4" thick of plywood made in Canada. Impossible. They are fabricated using metric sizes.

I think Festool is making a big mistake.

Canadian Wood Council

I remember when I did my thesis for my Structural Engineering degree, 25+ years ago, that all lumber, trusses, gusset plates etc, were metric and all findings were published in metric.

I could go on for ever on this topic but I wouldn't. Festool please re-think your decision for Canada. We are not the US.

My 2 cents worth.
Cheers
JC
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 10:32 AM by JCLP »

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3569
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2016, 10:19 AM »
And all construction stuff is still imperial : ex : 2 by 4 studs 4' by 8' plywood, 54'' by 12' drywall sheets etc..

Not quite true. Many sheet goods are metric sizes but are marketed as imperial. \
Tim

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 280
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2016, 10:23 AM »

My LR32 system arrived last week and my parallel guides (both guides) arrive at the end of week. I was working with my Hultafors Talmeter and Swiss measuring rule just last night. I now have 25.4 committed to memory and now......

It is obvious the LR32 system can't be adapted but it does provide the best argument for moving to metric overall which I have essentially done.  Now if I just find 355.6 mm on my Hultafors... and my new parallel guides.

I know I can just shoot my new parallel guides back for a full refund but I have made the decision to move to metric. End of story.

I would like to know if metric will still be available in NA.
Clark Fork

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Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2016, 10:24 AM »
Sounds like a decision you'd make after way to long smoking crack cocaine. Stupid to the point of hilarious. I'm so glad I live in Australia.

If this story isn't a joke, Festool US management certainly is a joke.

Be civil. You're on the line.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 908
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2016, 10:31 AM »
...  If this story isn't a joke, Festool US management certainly is a joke.

It's not about doing the smart thing, it's about marketing.  You must know from how effective Festool is at enforcing pricing policies that they are geniuses at marketing.  They are not selling to some theoretical population that loves metric, at least in the US.  It's not -just- marketing, but they have the marketing part down pat.  They are selling what the market will buy.

But if Festool management are geniuses, of course that begs the question - to whom/what does the joke moniker apply?

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2016, 10:40 AM »
Sounds like a decision you'd make after way to long smoking crack cocaine. Stupid to the point of hilarious. I'm so glad I live in Australia.

If this story isn't a joke, Festool US management certainly is a joke.

Be civil. You're on the line.

@Tyler OK then, I'll apologise for my crack.

So you're obviously on side with this master plan Tyler .. please explain how it's a good thing for your countrymen that have embraced Festool and the wider system that is based on the metric system. How does it make it easy when only the "volume core" of the product range is converted to imperial .. and shed some light on why both options are not to be offered .. or a dual scale is not possible.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline jumpinthefire

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2016, 10:41 AM »
  I almost bought a TS55 last week.

  I much rather have the imperial version. I wonder how long it will take for the average festool retailer to sell all current saws and start selling the new versions.

They include, or once included,  an imperial sticker to go over the metric one that indicates cut depth. All you need to do is peel and stick.

Did something else change that is making you wait? Are the detent depth stops also changing to better align with imperial?

 the blog says In the case of the TS saws (TSC, TS 55, TS 75) and HL 850, these require extensive teardown to replace the scales.

 makes me think they changed more than the markings on the front. If I can just add a sticker to go imperial, I will get the metric one.

Offline Gerald_D

  • Posts: 333
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2016, 10:44 AM »
I thought this was a great idea, until I got to the part that metric would no longer be offered.  Festool products have pushed me to convert to metric- although not entirely yet (as someone mentioned in another post, I think imperial, then measure in metric)- and now I don't want to go back.  Yes- offer the imperial option, but please don't take the metric option away.

I'm hoping that, by the time I have the funds to fork out for a 850 planer, that there's still some metric ones around.

Regards,
Gerald
Gerald
I have Festools- Big and Small and a few other tools

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3947
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2016, 10:52 AM »
@TylerC Will there be ways to retrofit with imperial measurements those tools that are switching over from metric, like what is available, for example, on the track saw?
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline erock

  • Posts: 1254
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2016, 10:55 AM »
Don't the guys who want imperial markings have stickers to place over the metric scale?

A simple sticker provided with the new tool could make everyone happy.

Eric

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2016, 10:56 AM »
@TylerC Will there be ways to retrofit with imperial measurements those tools that are switching over from metric, like what is available, for example, on the track saw?

Yes (assuming that I understand your question correctly). We will have options for you to retrofit your metric tools to imperial. Details on that will be coming in the near future.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 885
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2016, 11:00 AM »
Who cares its just marks on a stick, never use them away. Nothing on the actual tool will change just the scale, like most conversions of this type. Its just marketing to a perceived group.

John

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3947
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2016, 11:01 AM »
And do we get to start calling the TS55 the TS2.16535?  And maybe some day, instead of the Rotex 150, I can show off my Rotex 5.90551 to my friends and colleagues?

I think overall it's a good move, particularly for the routers and the parallel guides.  As far as expanding the customer base -- Although I don't have any specific knowledge, it's hard for me to believe that there would be too many people of the sort who would be attracted to Festool in the first place (professionals, serious hobbyists, tool fetishists), who would go out of their way to seek out a dealer or do research online, and then, who would then, at the moment of making a decision, say to themselves, "ewwwww!  metric!" and opt for something else.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline deepcreek

  • Posts: 906
    • TimberFire Studio
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2016, 11:01 AM »
When I was in business school and we were studying the underlying causes for the success and failure of different firms, one of my professors said, "Some companies continue to make money despite themselves."

Personally, I think these tools should still be available with metric scales in the North American market but I'm sure Festool will be fine.

Joe Adams
TimberFire Studio
Houston, Texas

http://www.facebook.com/timberfire

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 399
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2016, 11:10 AM »
 I don't think trying to convince blue collar workers into using metric because it's what the rest of world uses is a very logical argument.  Go to a typical job site in the states and ask these guys to switch to metric.  This is a no brainer if festool wants to sell more tools.  The world will use metric and America always will use imperial so get used to it.  I'm happy they are doing this and so is anyone else who never uses metric at work or on the jobsite

Offline SRSemenza

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  • Posts: 9196
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2016, 11:19 AM »
   

  I remember when I was getting ready to buy an ATF55 thinking about the fact that it had a metric scale. And actually considering it as part of the decision. After the fact it turned out to be no big deal. Once I moved on to the TS55 (not REQ) I did use an add on imperial sticker. Again no big deal but just more convenient for me. On my TSC55 I would prefer to have an imperial scale, but not a deal breaker. The thing I actually don't like on the TSC55 is the dual on rail off rail scale. I was always have to think about which one I should be using (haven't used it very many times yet though).

    I don't think I have ever used the scale on the 1400 router. I use gauge blocks to set depths. So it could probably not have any scale at all.

    I would prefer an imperial scale on the HL850. That is something that I find to be a real nuisance and generally something that I need to be exact. So converting 1/16" to whatever in mm is a place to introduce error.

    I think there are several metric or imperial usage methods at work in NA. Very user dependent. But in light of my first line, "I remember when I was getting ready to buy an ATF55 thinking about the fact that it had a metric scale", it probably makes sense for Festool to switch to imperial in NA. Simply so that buyers are not put off by thinking that the metric scales will be a big problem. The degree of whether or not the scale is a problem for the user will vary. But after someone starts using the tools, I think the scale problem starts to diminish in ones thinking. At least that was the case for me.

   Though I would prefer to work and have everything in metric I am just waaay to tuned in to thinking in imperial.

Seth

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2016, 11:20 AM »
Really hope Festool reconsiders after seeing the backlash in this forum.  If not, my future purchases will likely be Mafell as I am not interested in going back to imperial after seeing the benefits of metric. 

Offline cred

  • Posts: 9
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2016, 11:27 AM »
I have to agree that it is incredibly disappointing to hear that the metric counterparts will no longer be sold in NA.  Some (many?) of us appreciate the fact that Festool tools are metric, and our workflows depend on that.  Sadly, if Festool is going to move to solely imperial standards, then going forward I'll no longer be buying Festool.
While adding support for imperial measurements does make some business sense and may increase the customer, removing metric support alienates the existing base. This is a significant gamble on the part of Festool, who may lose existing customers and fail to attract significant numbers of new ones.

Offline jumpinthefire

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2016, 11:35 AM »

Canada is metric. All stength testing and certification of lumber fabricated and sold in Canada is done using metric units. Try to find a 3/4" thick of plywood made in Canada. Impossible. They are fabricated using metric sizes.

I remember when I did my thesis for my Structural Engineering degree, 25+ years ago, that all lumber, trusses, gusset plates etc, were metric and all findings were published in metric.

Cheers
JC

 I started building my dream house 6 months ago. Clearly, I'm no expert. But I did go to a engineering school too.

 My House plans dimensions where imperial, center to center measures in inches

 Concrete thickness in inches (but strength in megapascals)
 
 LVLs and I-Joist specifier sheets where in inches. Same with the I-joists web hole cutting instructions.

 Plumbing: Imperial

Garage doors : imperial sizes, and so on.

 Not once did I order something using the metric system, except for the concrete. The fact that lumber is cut using the metric system is irrelevant, simply because 19mm plywood is made to replace the real 3/4 inch plywood and nobody cares for the .05 mm difference.(except engineers :P)

 A lot of lumber sold in Canada is still named after the old imperial sizes. Contractors and framers still refer to these sizes & lumber yards employees are familliar with them. So no, Canada is not metric at 100% yet.
 
 






 

 



 

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 1990
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2016, 11:41 AM »
May have set a new FOG record 46 posts in ~2.5 hours. Or 150 minutes.

At least we are all on the same time scale. 8)

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline RL

  • Posts: 3040
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2016, 11:47 AM »
I can't think of a situation when I look at the scale when using a saw, router or planer. With the router in particular, much more depends on the bit being used than anything else.

For the TS55, I just adjust the depth of the cut to the material.

Thankfully the domino is not included in this change. That really would be significant because the cutters are staying metric.

So for me this is all a storm in a teacup, even though it makes no sense to me why Festool would go down this road.

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2016, 11:52 AM »
A couple of things here:

1. While Festool is growing very rapidly in North America, our market share is still really small. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Imperial is what is used by the vast majority of NA craftsmen. Metric has always been a barrier for people considering Festool. Converting our North American tools to North American standards isn't the craziest thing.

2. Providing two versions of the same tools simply doesn't make sense. It would be far too expensive and complicated to simultaneously provide both tools. Other power tool manufacturers don't offer both metric and imperial versions of their tools either. It's easy to say, "Just make both." It's much harder to actually pull off in a financially feasible way.

3. While the baseless speculation about our financial solvency is always entertaining, it's still baseless speculation.

4. It's interesting that many of the harshest responses have come from people outside of NA. Obviously, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but it will be interesting to see how the majority of craftsmen in imperial-dominant countries respond. The non-FOG response to this so far as been largely positive.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline SethThompson

  • Posts: 23
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2016, 12:03 PM »
One tool that I think will be way less fun to use is the domino. When its in metric I hardly have to think about it because everything is is tens.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 9196
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2016, 12:05 PM »
One tool that I think will be way less fun to use is the domino. When its in metric I hardly have to think about it because everything is is tens.

The Domino is not on the list of tools being changed.

Seth

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 914
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2016, 12:08 PM »

Canada is metric. All stength testing and certification of lumber fabricated and sold in Canada is done using metric units. Try to find a 3/4" thick of plywood made in Canada. Impossible. They are fabricated using metric sizes.

I remember when I did my thesis for my Structural Engineering degree, 25+ years ago, that all lumber, trusses, gusset plates etc, were metric and all findings were published in metric.

Cheers
JC

 I started building my dream house 6 months ago. Clearly, I'm no expert. But I did go to a engineering school too.

 My House plans dimensions where imperial, center to center measures in inches

 Concrete thickness in inches (but strength in megapascals)
 
 LVLs and I-Joist specifier sheets where in inches. Same with the I-joists web hole cutting instructions.

 Plumbing: Imperial

Garage doors : imperial sizes, and so on.

 Not once did I order something using the metric system, except for the concrete. The fact that lumber is cut using the metric system is irrelevant, simply because 19mm plywood is made to replace the real 3/4 inch plywood and nobody cares for the .05 mm difference.(except engineers :P)

 A lot of lumber sold in Canada is still named after the old imperial sizes. Contractors and framers still refer to these sizes & lumber yards employees are familliar with them. So no, Canada is not metric at 100% yet.

Yes you are correct. In the construction industry old names are still being used as they are easier to say and remember. It's like asking for a Kleenex. Most people say Kleenex, which is a name brand, but we should say Facial Tissue.
For the LVL and IjJoist spec sheets, you are correct as well. If the parent company is american they will publish their specs in imperial but before selling anything up here they must adhere to all National, Provincial and Local codes and must get CSA approval, which are all metric.
If you take a look at Nordic.ca which makes LVL's you can choose if you want American or Canadian. The Canadian specs are all metric as per the National building code.
Canada is 100% metric. People in the construction industry are still using imperial names, but I can guarantee you, that eventhough we call it a 2x4 it's a 38x89.

Offline johninthecamper

  • Festool Dealer
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  • Posts: 284
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2016, 12:08 PM »
A couple of things here:

1. While Festool is growing very rapidly in North America, our market share is still really small. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Imperial is what is used by the vast majority of NA craftsmen. Metric has always been a barrier for people considering Festool. Converting our North American tools to North American standards isn't the craziest thing.

2. Providing two versions of the same tools simply doesn't make sense. It would be far too expensive and complicated to simultaneously provide both tools. Other power tool manufacturers don't offer both metric and imperial versions of their tools either. It's easy to say, "Just make both." It's much harder to actually pull off in a financially feasible way.

3. While the baseless speculation about our financial solvency is always entertaining, it's still baseless speculation.

4. It's interesting that many of the harshest responses have come from people outside of NA. Obviously, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but it will be interesting to see how the majority of craftsmen in imperial-dominant countries respond. The non-FOG response to this so far as been largely positive.
nonfog response has been largely positive
Of course it has, you show metric to average American, what do you expect
People on here use them,the people who responded positively probly aren't. loss of system is not worth it to me.as much as I don't like to be converted,I would still buy metric

Offline fidelfs

  • Posts: 527
  • Houston, TX
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2016, 12:13 PM »
What will happen to the consumables for existent customers?

5mm bits for 32mm cabinet?
The 35mm bore bit for the hinge?
dominos (not the machine)?

I need to know so I can buy now, or move to another brand.
There is never a situation where it can't be done with the right hand tool - even though it may be a lot more work.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3569
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2016, 12:15 PM »
Who cares its just marks on a stick, never use them away. Nothing on the actual tool will change just the scale, like most conversions of this type. Its just marketing to a perceived group.

As usual John @kcufstoidi , I completely agree and a very reasoned response to this topic.
I am switching between metric and imperial all day, I am sorry I wasted Tyler's time.
I am sure one of the great third party Festool accessory manufacturing companies will sell me a nice metric sticker to replace the imperial one that will come on any new tools I buy.
I need to get a life.
Tim

Offline Stoli

  • Posts: 354
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2016, 12:22 PM »
Surely your marketing folks have not concluded that there is 0.00245% increase in sales potential by catering to the US Imperial prejudice?

RMW

No, I think the conclusion was a 0.00254% increase
DF500; OF1400; ETS125; CXS; installer Kit;  Kapex

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2016, 12:23 PM »
What will happen to the consumables for existent customers?

5mm bits for 32mm cabinet?
The 35mm bore bit for the hinge?
dominos (not the machine)?

I need to know so I can buy now, or move to another brand.

None of this changes. Cutting scales are the only things affected.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline Wooden Skye

  • Posts: 1165
  • My little girl was called home 12-28-15
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2016, 12:26 PM »
A simple sticker provided with the new tool could make everyone happy.

Eric
[/quote]

This is the best option in my opinion, plus it gives the consumer the choice.  In theory switching to imperial makes sense, but having some tools and accessories remain metric and some imperial makes it even more confusing. 
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2016, 12:31 PM »
I haven't read all the posts here, so sorry if any of these points have been made...

Sorry, but I am not on the "happy" bandwagon regarding Festool's announcement to ONLY offer their tools in the US as imperial only! This is just going to make it frustrating to add a new "imperial" tool for those of us that have a large investment in their current tools. Imagine having two routers with metric and a new one in imperial. Using an imperial TS55 with metric parallel guides...

If this was a marketing/sales problem for Festool in the US, they should have "added" imperial while retaining metric. Or. like the TS55 REBQ, offer a second scale as a sticker. Sadly, I don't think Festool thought this out!

One last thought - people who buy Festool tools know exactly what they are getting and "buy" into a system. Their tools are different - quality, engineered, precise - and German. Most of us are smart and sophisticated enough to use their tools - if they are trying to "bring" more customers into the fold, using imperial isn't the barrier for new sales, it's cost. But that's a whole other topic...

Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2016, 12:35 PM »
Surely your marketing folks have not concluded that there is 0.00245% increase in sales potential by catering to the US Imperial prejudice?

Considering that imperial dominates North America, this move should make Festool more accessible to a much wider group of craftsmen.

Price is more a consideration, but that's another discussion...

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 914
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2016, 12:35 PM »
I must have way too much time on my hands. Been doing some research and found the following.

"The Metric Conversion Act of 1975, as amended by the Omnibus Trade and Competitiveness Act of 1988, establishes the modern metric system (System International or SI) as the preferred system of measurement in the United States. It requires that, to the extent feasible, the metric system be used in all federal procurement, grants, and business-related activities by September 30, 1992."

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2016, 12:37 PM »
A couple of things here:

1. While Festool is growing very rapidly in North America, our market share is still really small. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Imperial is what is used by the vast majority of NA craftsmen. Metric has always been a barrier for people considering Festool. Converting our North American tools to North American standards isn't the craziest thing.

2. Providing two versions of the same tools simply doesn't make sense. It would be far too expensive and complicated to simultaneously provide both tools. Other power tool manufacturers don't offer both metric and imperial versions of their tools either. It's easy to say, "Just make both." It's much harder to actually pull off in a financially feasible way.

3. While the baseless speculation about our financial solvency is always entertaining, it's still baseless speculation.

4. It's interesting that many of the harshest responses have come from people outside of NA. Obviously, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but it will be interesting to see how the majority of craftsmen in imperial-dominant countries respond. The non-FOG response to this so far as been largely positive.

So .. what are these "imperial-dominant" countries - outside of North America?


Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 914
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2016, 12:45 PM »
There are 3 countries not  using the metric system. Liberia, Myanmar and the US.
There are 23 officially recognized countries in NA. All are officially metric but only the US refuse to change even though Federal construction projects are mandated to be done using metric and the Auto industry is in the process of standardizing to metric to remain consistent with their autoplants around the world.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2016, 12:48 PM »
PS - If you're not happy about this, call Festool - 888-337-8600, option 3, fill out this form: http://www.festoolusa.com/contact/ or comment on their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Festool/?fref=nf

The only way they will possibly adjust their direction is by feedback...

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2016, 12:50 PM »
I haven't read all the posts here, so sorry if any of these points have been made...

Sorry, but I am not on the "happy" bandwagon regarding Festool's announcement to ONLY offer their tools in the US as imperial only! This is just going to make it frustrating to add a new "imperial" tool for those of us that have a large investment in their current tools. Imagine having two routers with metric and a new one in imperial. Using an imperial TS55 with metric parallel guides...

If this was a marketing/sales problem for Festool in the US, they should have "added" imperial while retaining metric. Or. like the TS55 REBQ, offer a second scale as a sticker. Sadly, I don't think Festool thought this out!

One last thought - people who buy Festool tools know exactly what they are getting and "buy" into a system. Their tools are different - quality, engineered, precise - and German. Most of us are smart and sophisticated enough to use their tools - if they are trying to "bring" more customers into the fold, using imperial isn't the barrier for new sales, it's cost. But that's a whole other topic...

@RVHernandez it would seem that the current loyal Festool NA customer base is not a major factor in their planning. Obviously speculation on my part, but the points you've made would make anyone in the middle of investing in Festool potential collateral damage of their changes.


Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2016, 01:00 PM »
While adding support for imperial measurements does make some business sense and may increase the customer, removing metric support alienates the existing base.

Exactly, on point!

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2016, 01:01 PM »
So .. what are these "imperial-dominant" countries - outside of North America?

Of course I'm referring to the US and Canada. I phrased it as such because the point isn't that you (and others) don't live in North America; it's that you don't live in countries where imperial is the standard.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 914
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2016, 01:02 PM »
Did you know that all Dewalt tools are developed fully in metric and that 90% of Black & Decker's documentation in metric. Non-metric are for old tools.

Offline JD2720

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2016, 01:04 PM »
I'm so glad I live in Australia.

If this story isn't a joke, Festool US management certainly is a joke.

Then why does it matter to you what products are available for sale in North America.

Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2016, 01:07 PM »
Surely your marketing folks have not concluded that there is 0.00245% increase in sales potential by catering to the US Imperial prejudice?

RMW

No, I think the conclusion was a 0.00254% increase

That would be a 1/400% increase in the US - LOL

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2016, 01:12 PM »
@RVHernandez it would seem that the current loyal Festool NA customer base is not a major factor in their planning. Obviously speculation on my part, but the points you've made would make anyone in the middle of investing in Festool potential collateral damage of their changes.

We're trying to find a balance. If our current customers didn't matter, I wouldn't be responding to this thread. However, growing and reaching new craftsmen matter as well.

The reality is that most of our NA customers already have lots of imperial tools. Even if they prefer metric, imperial is hard to avoid in NA.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2016, 01:13 PM »
As an aerospace engineer working on advanced flight structures in the US I welcome this news.  I use Imperial units every day and I never use metric.  Having my Festools with Imperial scales would be fantastic.

All the complaining from woodworkers about the US not using metric is laughable. 
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline GarryMartin

  • Posts: 1838
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2016, 01:21 PM »
Will this change in any slow the introduction of new tools to NA even further given the additional engineering that it seems is required to change from a default metric design to an Imperial one?

Offline jdm5

  • Posts: 105
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2016, 01:23 PM »
I also think this is a massive mistake. Offering imperial versions, as an option - yes; Removing the metric versions completely - ridiculous.


+10000 - as an American who immediately moved to metric for woodworking, this is a big mistake.  Give us 'more worldly' Americans the choice of staying with the world's measuring system vs forcing an anachronism on us.

Is a barleycorn really the best unit of measure?

Per Wikipedia:

An Anglo-Saxon unit of length was the barleycorn. After 1066, 1 inch was equal to 3 barleycorns, which continued to be its legal definition for several centuries, with the barleycorn being the base unit.[10] One of the earliest such definitions is that of 1324, where the legal definition of the inch was set out in a statute of Edward II of England, defining it as "three grains of barley, dry and round, placed end to end, lengthwise".[10]
Drank the green Kool-Aid...gave up counting long ago.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2016, 01:26 PM »
Will this change in any slow the introduction of new tools to NA even further given the additional engineering that it seems is required to change from a default metric design to an Imperial one?

If there's effort, there's cost .. and you can imagine that cost is not going to be reflected as a price increase to the very market they're trying to exploit.

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #73 on: June 22, 2016, 01:35 PM »
Will this change in any slow the introduction of new tools to NA even further given the additional engineering that it seems is required to change from a default metric design to an Imperial one?

Good question. No, it shouldn't. This adjustment is pretty simple, so it shouldn't release product release timelines.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline JD2720

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #74 on: June 22, 2016, 01:37 PM »
I have been using Festool for about ten years. I never used metric before I started using Festool. I never complained to Festool about the metric markings, I just worked around scales being metric. Some users made & sold imperial scales for Festool tools.

Festool announces that they are going to make tools, sold in America, with imperial markings to match the preferred measuring system measuring system in this market. So the rest of the world screams that the world is coming to an end because of this change.

This change is not going to make me go out & replace my metric marked tools with imperial versions. I see nothing the says any one will be required to replace their tools because of this change.

Look to me like an opportunity for some to make some extra money. If you believe the demand for metric marked tools will be in high demand, buy up the current stock of metric marked tools & resell them when their value skyrockets.

I still fail to see why the measuring system that is used in the United States matters to the rest of the world. 

   

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2298
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2016, 01:37 PM »
After reading this whole thread during my lunch hour, it seems easy to point out that if this whole affair doesn't work out as Festool intended, they can always go back to what they offered before in Metric scales, or maybe throwing in the odd Imperial scale as a spare sticker when you buy the tool like on the track saw.
 There's nothing dire here, just a marketing change that can always be undone if need be. The tools will probably still come off a retailers shelf or warehouse like they did when only Metric scales were the norm.
 The Dust Collection ability and features of each tool are what draw me to them, not what Scale of measurement they have on them.   [popcorn]
 
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2016, 01:38 PM »
If there's effort, there's cost .. and you can imagine that cost is not going to be reflected as a price increase to the very market they're trying to exploit.

Prices are remaining the same.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 1990
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2016, 01:41 PM »
76 replies in 4:44, or 1/225 seconds, errr.... make that 1 per 3 & 24/32 minutes.

This is fun.  [popcorn]

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2016, 01:44 PM »
Then why does it matter to you what products are available for sale in North America.

@JD2720

If Festool for NA operated completely (design, manufacture, finance) in isolation I wouldn't give a fig. Demands and changes from NA send ripples through an international organisation like, Festool .. and Festool isn't a massive company. Consequently new product development takes longer and products become more expensive. Normally a wider market has the potential to improve a product. We don't see this with Festool from an "outside of NA" perspective. All we see is demands for 110V non metric tools.


Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2016, 01:46 PM »
If there's effort, there's cost .. and you can imagine that cost is not going to be reflected as a price increase to the very market they're trying to exploit.

Prices are remaining the same.

Exactly what I'm saying ...

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2016, 01:51 PM »
If there's effort, there's cost .. and you can imagine that cost is not going to be reflected as a price increase to the very market they're trying to exploit.

Prices are remaining the same.

Exactly what I'm saying ...

Got it. Misread your post. There's minimal cost difference with this change. Shouldn't have much of an impact on price/cost.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline cred

  • Posts: 9
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2016, 01:53 PM »

4. It's interesting that many of the harshest responses have come from people outside of NA. Obviously, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but it will be interesting to see how the majority of craftsmen in imperial-dominant countries respond. The non-FOG response to this so far as been largely positive.

But, I still don't see the need to alienate those of us in NA using Festool produced metric tools in the hopes of attracting more customers with imperial offerings.  You'll be driving your existing customers (who you already know do support Festool) to other manufacturers.

Offline WastedP

  • Posts: 353
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2016, 01:55 PM »
I purchased my TS 55 on the recon sale, and it came with the imperial scale sticker.  I can work either way, but I was looking forward to getting an OF 1400 some day and working straight metric.  Will stick-on scales be available for routers as well?

It will be tough getting used to calling my RO 125 a RO 4.92126.  I am guessing this is going to really mess with the LR 32 set.

Offline SS Teach

  • Posts: 286
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2016, 02:02 PM »
Once I got into Festool I decided to go metric. It is much so much easier. I agree include a conversion sticker with the tools. One came with my TS 55 R. Seems like  very simple solution.
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Offline promark747

  • Posts: 477
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2016, 02:24 PM »
While stickers or dual scales can be helpful, they are not a fully satisfactory solution as the depth adjustment mechanism is made in either metric or imperial...so putting an imperial sticker or a dual scale on a TS55 doesn't magically make the gradations 1/32".

Offline promark747

  • Posts: 477
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #85 on: June 22, 2016, 02:35 PM »
Maybe the MFS will be reborn in imperial?  [wink] [wink]  [big grin]

Offline typeshige

  • Posts: 17
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #86 on: June 22, 2016, 02:36 PM »
Will this change in any slow the introduction of new tools to NA even further given the additional engineering that it seems is required to change from a default metric design to an Imperial one?

Good question. No, it shouldn't. This adjustment is pretty simple, so it shouldn't release product release timelines.

Can't there be a way to make kits to swap between the two measurement systems? I'd gladly pay extra for this.

Or offer metric as a special order item.  I know Festool USA must have done a lot of market research but nothing like having both options available to show which one actually sells better.

Please reconsider!!!

six-point socket

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #87 on: June 22, 2016, 02:51 PM »
Hi!

I really like Festool and because of that I wish Festool North America the best of luck with this endeavor/ business decision, from the bottom of my heart!  [smile]

Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline AIPDX

  • Posts: 119
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2016, 03:15 PM »
Sounds like Festool is trying to find its path in this market and struggles with figuring out what the end users want. Clearly, when a seasoned woodworker in the US considers buying his first Festool tool, he may think - not only it is very expensive, it is also in units which do not match anything in my shop and which I do not know how to use. I can see the idea behind this change, Festool wants to eliminate obstacles for promoting its tools in the US to a wider group of end users. But implementation does not sound right.

I grew up in Europe before moving to the US some 20 years ago. I worked for a national lab in the US for a long time. Everything in Europe is metric, everything in science (also in the US) is also metric. So I became "bilingual" in units. It is funny how it works in my head. I learned how to use imperial units, but anything below 1/8" is a struggle, both when it comes to reading it off the scale and to adding fractions. I use metric whenever I can for everything that requires precision better than 1/8", but I typically find myself using imperial for measurements that do not require precision better than 1/8 or 1/4 of an inch - just because readings off the measuring tape are smaller in inches and easier to remember.

For better or for worse, when it comes to lumber, when it comes to router bits, when it comes to drill bits (if they are not Festool), when it comes to standard dimensions of kitchen cabinets, etc., one has to deal with imperial units. This is where nightmare starts. Try to calculate by how much to offset a fence for routing with a 5/8" bit using a metric scale, and try doing it without a calculator. Set up a domino with metric scale for a 3/4" wood to cut right in the middle. It is not about using an outdated system of units which almost no other country in the world uses, it is about making it work within the existing "ecosystem" around us. Having access to imperial units on Festool tools can lead to a significant simplification of work flow.

The problem which I see with this decision is that while  tools with imperial scales will fit better into the US reality,  the existing Festool ecosystem will start breaking apart. It is OK when every tool uses the same units. However it can only get worse if it becomes a mix and match. The last thing we want is to have a units mismatch between Festool tools. We want them to be either "bilingual" or easily switchable depending on the task.

A revolutionary decision  would be to implement either a dual scale when possible, or a digital display when dual scale is impossible. Imagine how nice it would be to have a digital depth display on a router or track saw. It would be super easy to reset it to a zero plunge/cut depth, very easy to read, and very easy to switch from digital to metric and back.

The decision to change about 8 tools to imperial while keeping the rest in metric can only create confusion and dissatisfaction... If they started offering metric, the way forward is to attract imperial users who are not ready to convert or can't convert because of the work that they are doing, while keeping the metric customer base happy.

Festool appears to lack a roadmap and could better research its customer base and market.



Offline Duck76

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #89 on: June 22, 2016, 03:20 PM »
Another unhappy Canuck here.  While I can work in both systems, the metric system is much easier and it is the official system of measurement here in Canada. 

I can understand the position to offer imperial tools to the US market but please don't force the rest of us to do the same!

Or maybe it's just a ploy to boost sales this quarter by triggering a rush to buy the remaining metric tools in stock?

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 409
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #90 on: June 22, 2016, 03:21 PM »

Canada is metric. All stength testing and certification of lumber fabricated and sold in Canada is done using metric units. Try to find a 3/4" thick of plywood made in Canada. Impossible. They are fabricated using metric sizes.

I remember when I did my thesis for my Structural Engineering degree, 25+ years ago, that all lumber, trusses, gusset plates etc, were metric and all findings were published in metric.

Cheers
JC

 I started building my dream house 6 months ago. Clearly, I'm no expert. But I did go to a engineering school too.

 My House plans dimensions where imperial, center to center measures in inches

 Concrete thickness in inches (but strength in megapascals)
 
 LVLs and I-Joist specifier sheets where in inches. Same with the I-joists web hole cutting instructions.

 Plumbing: Imperial

Garage doors : imperial sizes, and so on.

 Not once did I order something using the metric system, except for the concrete. The fact that lumber is cut using the metric system is irrelevant, simply because 19mm plywood is made to replace the real 3/4 inch plywood and nobody cares for the .05 mm difference.(except engineers :P)

 A lot of lumber sold in Canada is still named after the old imperial sizes. Contractors and framers still refer to these sizes & lumber yards employees are familliar with them. So no, Canada is not metric at 100% yet.

When you order your cabinet hardware you will be working in metric, no way around that and I think a lot of the Festool lineup is directed towards cabinet construction. Trying to build cabinets in standard with metric based hardware is a PIA!
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Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 483
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #91 on: June 22, 2016, 04:01 PM »
Just to get my voice heard.  I prefer metric.  I do hope @TylerC that you will offer metric stickers for those of us that prefer it.
Vijay Kumar

Offline danbox

  • Posts: 70
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #92 on: June 22, 2016, 04:16 PM »
Well you have to love our American friends, why is the imperial system still being used anyway. Who needs a coherent system of measurement that unifys area volume weight mass tempurature and time anyway.

Im guessing it's because it's a European system (French & BAAS), I remember reading somewhere a few years ago about the metric system in America that in the early 1900 a bill was put forward to make it mandatory across the country as it was being widely used across the Britsh and French empire, 40 or so top American business/Science guys where invited to give their opinion and all but 3 or 4 where in favour of the bill being passed as they understood the advantages that the system had, the government however didn't and rejected it, the article also stated that other bills had been presented with similar support but again get rejected each time?

If it's the system of measurement that is used, even if it is outdated, I don't really understand the hate towards Festool for selling tools in that market, especially if it's what their competition is doing.




Offline GhostFist

  • Posts: 1556
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #93 on: June 22, 2016, 04:18 PM »
I'm happy for imperial measurements for construction, i think festool shouldn't eliminate metric products however. It's nice for those that think they know better to have choices.

Seriously you should have the option, Im sure more imperial will sell, but theres those who want to be weird and they have the right

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #94 on: June 22, 2016, 04:20 PM »
Metric measurements are not the impediment or hurdle to more U.S. sales, price is. When most Festool tools increase 2-4% annually every April 1, at some point (just like private education which is more like 5-6% annually) you will push away more people from buying into your ecosystem.

Best path forward is to offer as many add-on stickers for imperial scale and also the detented adjustment parts too for a true alternative. Both measuring camps will be happy.

I have a lot of tools from many, many brands and price is always a factor. Sure I'd like to have an OF1400 router but my 3 Bosch routers work perfect and as a whole cost the same. My drill/driver/impact tools cost together what one Festool battery drill costs. I buy tools that solve a problem not blindly buy a brand. My 5 Festool tools are it for a good while (each is unique to me), metric/imperial doesn't matter. I do want quality and precision but that is provided from many other brands. We humans are the main precision tools in the shop, and money doesn't grow on trees.

Sales/marketing 101, don't sell your product based on price, sell it on what it can do for the customer, even when price is the elephant in the room, preventing greater market share.

Come up with a clever marketing campaign or in this case switch to imperial as the excuse for why sales aren't where they need to be, even if you're wrong, at least it bought you sometime to think up the next brilliant idea to avoid admitting you're too overpriced and boutique to get a larger market share with the wider market. In the meantime spend your lunch hours looking for a new job that takes you out of the firing line hopefully before management realise the latest bright idea wasn't actually the answer.

The last thing management ever wants to hear is "maybe we're too expensive, we should cut out prices". I suspect this move to imperial is just the upshot of dancing around the truth that nobody wants to admit.

Offline AIPDX

  • Posts: 119
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #95 on: June 22, 2016, 04:28 PM »
Well you have to love our American friends, why is the imperial system still being used anyway. Who needs a coherent system of measurement that unifys area volume weight mass tempurature and time anyway.

To be fair, US is gradually moving towards introducing metric units wherever possible. Nearly all food items are now labelled in both imperial and metric units. Kids at school learn how to use metric. Electronic gadgets increasingly often can be switched between imperial and metric. However, it is very difficult to make this change happen because of costs, habits, established production routes, etc. It will happen, but it will take a long time. Someone was too conservative in the past and decided to stick with the imperial, now we have to live with that.

The same applies to countries with left-side traffic. Not very convenient (especially for UK folks who want to drive to the rest of Europe) but how would you change it?

Sorry about the off-topic.

Offline TylerC

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #96 on: June 22, 2016, 04:44 PM »
If it's the system of measurement that is used, even if it is outdated, I don't really understand the hate towards Festool for selling tools in that market, especially if it's what their competition is doing.

Bingo. Personally, I think that the US should have adopted metric one hundred years ago. However, they didn't. For better or worse, imperial is the standard here. Who are we to fight it?
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Offline cred

  • Posts: 9
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #97 on: June 22, 2016, 04:52 PM »
If it's the system of measurement that is used, even if it is outdated, I don't really understand the hate towards Festool for selling tools in that market, especially if it's what their competition is doing.

Bingo. Personally, I think that the US should have adopted metric one hundred years ago. However, they didn't. For better or worse, imperial is the standard here. Who are we to fight it?

Again, this appears to be showing little regard to your existing customers.  Festool chose the "wrong" side in NA initially, so now they'll switch midstream, leaving current users by the wayside?

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 804
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #98 on: June 22, 2016, 04:53 PM »
The better question is are the metric versions going to be offered at a good sale price?

In some ways it is a good push for those like me that have been holding back on buying tools (OF1010 router in my case) to make the purchase soon. As always a sale will drive sales.

Offline danbox

  • Posts: 70
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #99 on: June 22, 2016, 04:57 PM »
Well you have to love our American friends, why is the imperial system still being used anyway. Who needs a coherent system of measurement that unifys area volume weight mass tempurature and time anyway.

To be fair, US is gradually moving towards introducing metric units wherever possible. Nearly all food items are now labelled in both imperial and metric units. Kids at school learn how to use metric. Electronic gadgets increasingly often can be switched between imperial and metric. However, it is very difficult to make this change happen because of costs, habits, established production routes, etc. It will happen, but it will take a long time. Someone was too conservative in the past and decided to stick with the imperial, now we have to live with that.

The same applies to countries with left-side traffic. Not very convenient (especially for UK folks who want to drive to the rest of Europe) but how would you change it?

Sorry about the off-topic.

Well we still carry swords over here so we need to keep left...

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3947
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #100 on: June 22, 2016, 05:07 PM »
 [thumbs up]

Maybe the MFS will be reborn in imperial?  [wink] [wink]  [big grin]
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Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 280
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #101 on: June 22, 2016, 05:08 PM »
Festool appeals to the elitist user; cabinet makers who seek a competitive advantage, mainly in productivity. Read any woodworking magazine about shops and  shop machine layouts. All have the "Norm Abrams" look with none showing a MFT, LR32-system, Parallel Guides.  This decision is not going to turn the average American framer/finish carpenter into a Festool customer. These are "Skil-Saw" users and always will be.  It took 79 days for "Old Coke" to be put back on the shelf. Start counting...

It is a good exercise, though, "an intelligent risk".

"The Coca-Cola Company introduced reformulated Coca-Cola, often referred to as "new Coke," marking the first formula change in 99 years. The company didn't set out to create the firestorm of consumer protest that ensued; instead, The Coca-Cola Company intended to re-energize its Coca-Cola brand and the cola category in its largest market, the United States.

 That firestorm ended with the return of the original formula, now called Coca-Cola classic, a few months later. The return of original formula Coca-Cola on July 11, 1985, put the cap on 79 days that revolutionized the soft-drink industry, transformed The Coca-Cola Company and stands today as testimony to the power of taking intelligent risks, even when they don't quite work as intended."
Clark Fork

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don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3947
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #102 on: June 22, 2016, 05:12 PM »
 I think tempest in a teapot is going to sue this thread for copyright infringement.

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Offline JD2720

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #103 on: June 22, 2016, 05:48 PM »
[thumbs up]

Maybe the MFS will be reborn in imperial?  [wink] [wink]  [big grin]

I would replace my metric MFSs with an imperial version.

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #104 on: June 22, 2016, 06:10 PM »
Festool chose the "wrong" side in NA initially, so now they'll switch midstream, leaving current users by the wayside?
Launching in the US with imperial was never an option. If we were holding out to get imperial tools, we never could have come stateside.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #105 on: June 22, 2016, 06:27 PM »
@clark_fork  Have you watched a current season of "This Old House" recently? It would appear at least these guys aren't so locked in anymore. At least the rest of the people involved in the show seem to have moved heavily to Festool. Just making an observation. I don't think the Festool line is so elitist anymore or the company wouldn't be expanding as rapidly as it is in North America.
Randy

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #106 on: June 22, 2016, 07:11 PM »
I just wish I'd waited until today to announce the CXS sweepstakes winners. I was much more popular yesterday.

// logging off for the night //
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #107 on: June 22, 2016, 07:33 PM »
Shocked is the most polite word that I can use here.

I will refrain from further comments.

Peter

six-point socket

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #108 on: June 22, 2016, 07:34 PM »
Hi!

I'm deliberating for quite a while now if I should write a little more than in my previous post in this thread or not. Mainly because it doesn't affect me, at least not as imminently as I honestly wish it would (but that's a different story and not for the FOG) and because I have no clue how many North American craftsmen of all trades still use imperial over metric.

But what I learned from years actively using forums and some facebook-groups is that no matter how big/how active/how frequented a forum/newsgroup is it's still just a small lake compared to an ocean (the real world). And in every lake there's only a handful of different "sea dwellers" whereas in the ocean diversity is a lot bigger. So just looking at the lake to make a representative statement about "sea dwellers" isn't going to hold up in the long run.

I wrote it in another thread, albeit a little different, the real elitist group are the users of such forums/newsgroups because they are far more educated on the respective topics than the general public and use far more different resources than any Joe Average ever would. And "Joe Average" is definitely not meant to reflect on the quality of work they deliver.

I shop online almost all over the world for stuff that I want, be it for hobbies, general goods or whatever. I did so before PayPal and before Sak's and so many others started to use international shipping/e-commerce solutions like borderfree - so I have quite some stuff that only later was introduced to the European/German market, if introduced at all. Meaning I use 110V converters or had to go through other hassle to make it work. For some I could get 230V models nowadays or slightly different variants that maybe appeal a little more to the European/German market. So I do understand when Festool wants to advance from kinda serving the "true connoisseur" that will make it work despite hassle/conversions *whatever* to serving more "Joe Averages" who want to stay in their natural habitat and surroundings.

The big question is if that will harm the relationship with existing customers. And if it does, if all those "Joe Averages" being counted on right now will make up for the eventual (purely speculative) loss of earnings from existing customers.

Also it's not so much the hobbyists or one-man-shows among the professionals that will "suffer" from this and maybe leave "the green" - but the larger companies to which tools are also a kind of consumable and who regularly buy new machines that go in the loop.

And I surely wouldn't want to see the faces of employees that (maybe) learned metric on behalf of their job or their bosses that made the move after seeing what fantastic products Festool offers, and when the next turnover is due they unpack new, imperial Festool(s). ...

But then again, this is just my personal opinion, my thoughts on this. They are worth nothing, not even two cents, because I don't work for Festool and I have no clue about what their numbers, surveys and in the end their leader's instincts predict for the future.

I only hope that Festool did think about their relations to existing customers and their Fan, err. FOG-Base ;) Because those are the people that, albeit not solely, spread the word to the world's "Joe Averages".

I'm gonna say what I have said before - I like Festool and I wish them the best of luck with this business decision - I'm pretty sure there were enough employees involved that pondered for quite a while about this before the decision was made and announced.

Best of luck Festool!

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 09:26 PM by six-point socket »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4726
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #109 on: June 22, 2016, 08:04 PM »
I read the Festool Blog announcement and I scanned this entire thread and have not found any mention of what the new increments will be other than "Imperial".

I view this development with alarm. I moved to Festools to gain precision and true adjust-ability. The 1010 router for example has 1 mm increments that can be subdivided 10 times and even finer positions can be readily interpolated.

How much precision will be given up by using Imperial?
What is the finest increment that will be readable on the 1010 depth adjustment scale?


I'd like to see an example of the Imperial 1010 depth adjustment scale please.

Offline shaun.mcc

  • Posts: 100
  • DIY, Chronic Tool Addict.
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2016, 08:37 PM »
Been busy and haven't been on the forum in awhile, but saw this announcement on facebook. While I understand this is a way to increase sales, I've spent thousands on festool and woodpeckers in investing in metric. Now, adding any tools in imperial will bug those of us with ocd that obviously pay a premium to have a system. This is poor. The first tool your potential carpenters will buy would be a ct and a track saw...perhaps you should start by offering just the track saw in both metric and imperial (despite the sticker) to see the interest and perhaps some educating on the merits and method to switch to metric, cheat sheets, etc. I have a feeling price will be the barrier. 

Btw...no shame on festool changing their mind.

Shaun


@RVHernandez it would seem that the current loyal Festool NA customer base is not a major factor in their planning. Obviously speculation on my part, but the points you've made would make anyone in the middle of investing in Festool potential collateral damage of their changes.

We're trying to find a balance. If our current customers didn't matter, I wouldn't be responding to this thread. However, growing and reaching new craftsmen matter as well.

The reality is that most of our NA customers already have lots of imperial tools. Even if they prefer metric, imperial is hard to avoid in NA.
 
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Offline Gjarman12

  • Posts: 98
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #111 on: June 22, 2016, 08:40 PM »
I'm torn. Being in Canada we kind of have to work in both. As I prefer and feel like I have converted some to metric and it was part of my expensive jump into festool, my biggest concern is that potentially my tools only have seven years left of guaranteed service.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2016, 08:53 PM »
I read the Festool Blog announcement and I scanned this entire thread and have not found any mention of what the new increments will be other than "Imperial".

I view this development with alarm. I moved to Festools to gain precision and true adjust-ability. The 1010 router for example has 1 mm increments that can be subdivided 10 times and even finer positions can be readily interpolated.

How much precision will be given up by using Imperial?
What is the finest increment that will be readable on the 1010 depth adjustment scale?


I'd like to see an example of the Imperial 1010 depth adjustment scale please.

@Michael Kellogg this is a classic example of Festool not innovating effectively in a marketplace that is demanding more. You are so rightly pointing out that we're talking about a lot more than a label here.

Bosch (ignoring quality or effectiveness) have stepped in with digital displays for their routers and the idea is extremely appealing to me. More improvements will be made with electronics and accuracy will be more dependent on these innovations.

Probably ironic, but I'd imagine other tool brands pay more attention to sites like the FOG than Festool does itself. Pretty obvious that a cordless tool with a dual mode digital measurement system and throw in multilingual, just because it's easy ... and you are making a tool you can sell world wide.

The flagship product for Festool is, without doubt, the track saw. At one point Festool owned the space .. now (locally in Oz) I can buy a cheap track saw and track for less than a third the price of Festool. If I want spend more than Festool, I can buy Mafell ... and if I want a familiar brand I can buy Makita, Dewalt, etc.

six-point socket

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #113 on: June 22, 2016, 09:01 PM »
I read the Festool Blog announcement and I scanned this entire thread and have not found any mention of what the new increments will be other than "Imperial".

I view this development with alarm. I moved to Festools to gain precision and true adjust-ability. The 1010 router for example has 1 mm increments that can be subdivided 10 times and even finer positions can be readily interpolated.

How much precision will be given up by using Imperial?
What is the finest increment that will be readable on the 1010 depth adjustment scale?


I'd like to see an example of the Imperial 1010 depth adjustment scale please.

@Michael Kellogg this is a classic example of Festool not innovating effectively in a marketplace that is demanding more. You are so rightly pointing out that we're talking about a lot more than a label here.


I agree in a heartbeat that this is a very important and intelligent question on the subject of changing to imperial measurements.


Probably ironic, but I'd imagine other tool brands pay more attention to sites like the FOG than Festool does itself.

And this makes me lol  [big grin]  [big grin]  [big grin] I'll explain why, NO OFFENSE: this exact statement can be read numerous times on a German forum of a competitor in regards to Festool seen as "other tool brands"

Made my day! :)

Kind regards,
Oliver


Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2745
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #114 on: June 22, 2016, 09:02 PM »

A couple of things here:

1. While Festool is growing very rapidly in North America, our market share is still really small.
4. It's interesting that many of the harshest responses have come from people outside of NA. Obviously, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but it will be interesting to see how the majority of craftsmen in imperial-dominant countries respond. The non-FOG response to this so far as been largely positive.

Further thoughts from one of the 'people outside of NA' -
. 15 non North American replies out of 112 at time of drafting this and the majority of these by @Kev. Vast majority of Nth American replies not positive about this decision.
. Obviously Metric  Canada was not fully considered. [Imperialism!  [smile]]
. The Festool 'System' is Metric, now in Nth America this strength and unity will be compromised.

@Peter Halle  is 'shocked'. Not sure if this shock is from this decision, or the overwhelming strength of negativity to this decision by NA members. Must say if it is the latter, I too am surprised. I certainly expected there to be a backlash, but given the strength of debate in Threads discussing measurement systems, I did expect more posts in agreement. Given this FOG history, the overwhelming objection rate of replies from NA members is surprising.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 03:59 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #115 on: June 22, 2016, 09:06 PM »
A couple of things here:

/snip/

2. Providing two versions of the same tools simply doesn't make sense. It would be far too expensive and complicated to simultaneously provide both tools. Other power tool manufacturers don't offer both metric and imperial versions of their tools either. It's easy to say, "Just make both." It's much harder to actually pull off in a financially feasible way.

/snip/

Actually it makes a lot of sense. We're not saying "just make both", Festool said they are making both. We're suggesting to sell both. Perhaps make the imperial standard and offer metric as a special order. Some more products in the supply stream adds a little more work but it provides greater consumer choice and avoids alienating all the customers who over these several years have changed to metric and want to continue doing so, not to mention the newcomers who would prefer it due to other Festool products remaining metric. And as for the other tool companies not doing it, really? If that were the Festool MO we wouldn't have tools like the domino, RO90, conturo or the many other improvements or better warranties over the other makers. Or the other way to look at it are the other makers selling imperial only saws with metric hoses as well as other metric only tools like joiners and work tables? Either way it's not what all the other guys are doing so which is better for the customers? And which sets Festool apart from the competition?

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm glad the tools will be made available in imperial and will prefer them personally, and I agree it will broaden the appeal here. But why leave the current customers who adopted metric in the lurch on their future purchases? IMO that simply doesn't make sense.
+1

Offline Mort

  • Posts: 355
  • World's Tallest Midget
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #116 on: June 22, 2016, 09:12 PM »
There sure is a lot of ire coming from people who won't be effected about a sticker on a track saw and a knob on a router.

I'll bet you can get yourself a sticker and knob from England for pretty cheap, warranty intact.
I hate signatures.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2745
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #117 on: June 22, 2016, 09:14 PM »
@TylerC

Get some sleep.  [smile]

There sure is a lot of ire coming from people who won't be effected about a sticker on a track saw and a knob on a router.

I'll bet you can get yourself a sticker and knob from England for pretty cheap, warranty intact.

You might get the knob, but from my FOG experience UK tools like in Australia already have a metric guide.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 09:17 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #118 on: June 22, 2016, 09:20 PM »
@TylerC

Get some sleep.  [smile]

There sure is a lot of ire coming from people who won't be effected about a sticker on a track saw and a knob on a router.

I'll bet you can get yourself a sticker and knob from England for pretty cheap, warranty intact.

You might get the knob, but from my FOG experience UK tools like in Australia already have a metric guide.

I doubt @TylerC made the decision and was probably hoping for a positive response.

Offline Mort

  • Posts: 355
  • World's Tallest Midget
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #119 on: June 22, 2016, 09:21 PM »
I'm also curious when Australia and the U.K. are going to start driving on the right so we can stop producing cars in right hand drive?
I hate signatures.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2745
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #120 on: June 22, 2016, 09:25 PM »
@TylerC

Get some sleep.  [smile]

There sure is a lot of ire coming from people who won't be effected about a sticker on a track saw and a knob on a router.

I'll bet you can get yourself a sticker and knob from England for pretty cheap, warranty intact.

You might get the knob, but from my FOG experience UK tools like in Australia already have a metric guide.

I doubt @TylerC made the decision and was probably hoping for a positive response.

Of course this decision was made higher up @Kev  and signed off by German HQ. I put in my comment because @TylerC said around 10 posts ago he was going to sleep, and obviously he is awake again. In the end his sleepless night will not make this thread any better.

I'm also curious when Australia and the U.K. are going to start driving on the right so we can stop producing cars in right hand drive?


@Mort
Why change the subject. As a FOG member I am entitled to express my thoughts in this subject and, as I said in a previous post, I am just as surprised by the NA reaction here as I am of the decision.

As to driving on the right or left. I have driven in Europe, Canada and the US. My last trip to Europe covered 20,000 Kms. I actually prefer driving on the right hand side of the road and want it adopted here.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 09:39 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

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Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #121 on: June 22, 2016, 09:26 PM »
There sure is a lot of ire coming from people who won't be effected about a sticker on a track saw and a knob on a router.

I'll bet you can get yourself a sticker and knob from England for pretty cheap, warranty intact.

A crash and burn trying to expand in NA will have a dramatic impact on a company's international business. To you it's a sticker and a knob .. to me it's a fundamental floor in understanding the market and how customers will react.

When Australia went metric you could get stickers for you speedo for a wide range of cars .. fortunately that evolved.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #122 on: June 22, 2016, 09:27 PM »
I'm also curious when Australia and the U.K. are going to start driving on the right so we can stop producing cars in right hand drive?

After Japan

Offline Don T

  • Posts: 1940
  • Phoenix, Az
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #123 on: June 22, 2016, 09:44 PM »
@TylerC Will there be ways to retrofit with imperial measurements those tools that are switching over from metric, like what is available, for example, on the track saw?

Yes (assuming that I understand your question correctly). We will have options for you to retrofit your metric tools to imperial. Details on that will be coming in the near future.
What about the imperial to metric?
RO150, C12, DF 500 Q, CT33, TS75, MFT3, Kapex 120, MFT3/Kapex, MFK 700, RO 90, ETS150/3, CT22, Centrotec Installers Kit, Parallel Guides & Ext, Carvex, OF1400, LR32 Set, MFS400 w/700 rails, KA UG Set, First Aid Kit, RTS 400 EQ, Vecturo OS400 Set, CT Wings, CT Drill Guide, Pro 5, CXS, C18, HL850, Vac Sys set

Offline jumpinthefire

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #124 on: June 22, 2016, 09:46 PM »
When you order your cabinet hardware you will be working in metric, no way around that and I think a lot of the Festool lineup is directed towards cabinet construction. Trying to build cabinets in standard with metric based hardware is a PIA!

 I agree. Im ordering a tracksaw for future furniture & cabinet making. But I also want to use it for plywood underlayment & other rough stuff, like cutting doors and building a nice deck and maybe a set of stairs. I do have a worm drive saw, but i like the track system to keep everything straight when working alone. Plus, it makes the cost of the saw easier to swallow, And im impressed by the dust collection on my new festool sander. I plan to use the TS55  in very different work situations, with different goals. I think for most festool users, high end precision work is the norm & im surprised festool is changing part of their ecosystem to please framers, carpenters, and maybe hobbyist with deep pockets and no clue, instead of focusing on the core of their customer base,dedicated wood workers.

 But I do think the metric system is a PITA for general construction. 

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1914
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #125 on: June 22, 2016, 09:50 PM »
As an existing customer, I'm trying to understand what this means for all the related accessories for the NA market.  They will eventually go imperial with the tools?  Related tools like a CMS?  Other tools and consumables will follow? (Domino). I wouldn't give this a second thought, but because they will no longer be making metric available, I'm concerned about this vision.  Having to switch back and forth across tools and accessories is a non-starter. 
-Raj

Offline GhostFist

  • Posts: 1556
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #126 on: June 22, 2016, 09:54 PM »
Hmm I'd be interested in the imperial scales for my 2200 and 1010 when available. Already have a 1/2 collet for the 2200 and a 1/4" for the 1010 (prefer 8mm shank bits for the 1010 but in this case it's nice to have both.)

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 587
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #127 on: June 22, 2016, 09:56 PM »
A good fix for this situation would be to still make the conversion to imperial for future tools but make every 110v metric tool from the UK (that is currently available, none of the Naina stuff)
 available for order through US dealers. Festool as a company already has UL listing for those products so there's no hang up there.

If the metric items could be ordered from the UK then dealers wouldn't need a stockpile of both imperial and metric available. It would obviously take longer than current transit times to get those items but they'd be available and the customer who is ordering it would do so knowing it would take longer to recieve the item.

If festool backed this and still offered the 3 year warranty on those UK ordered items then everyone would be happy and you could go on introducing your imperial line in an effort to appeal to a broader US customer base. Win/win if you ask me.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #128 on: June 22, 2016, 09:59 PM »
A good fix for this situation would be to still make the conversion to imperial for future tools but make every 110v metric tool from the UK (that is currently available, none of the Naina stuff)
 available for order through US dealers. Festool as a company already has UL listing for those products so there's no hang up there.

If the metric items could be ordered from the UK then dealers wouldn't need a stockpile of both imperial and metric available. It would obviously take longer than current transit times to get those items but they'd be available and the customer who is ordering it would do so knowing it would take longer to recieve the item.

If festool backed this and still offered the 3 year warranty on those UK ordered items then everyone would be happy and you could go on introducing your imperial line in an effort to appeal to a broader US customer base. Win/win if you ask me.

A very good point .. you could take this further and introduce the concept of an international warranty. That'd put a cat amongst the pigeons [big grin]

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2057
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #129 on: June 22, 2016, 10:31 PM »
Here is my take.

I love my metric tools. I don't think they make me a better woodworker, but I don't sweat it when doing everything in mm. Am I chaffed about this move to Imperial?  Maybe a little but I am also a business owner and you go where the money is. I get thousands of ideas from my current customers a month and we take most of them very seriously, but it is about where the potential customer base is. That is business 101.

For example, we target Amazon customers (AWS... Not shopping) and have turned down a lot of customers that solely run Google or Azure. It sucks to tell them we don't have a good offering for them but then when I look at the pool of 30-40 thousand new AWS customers per month, those concerns go away real quick!

As long as my MFS and domino and Incra fence don't change overnight...  I am fine with this. Those are my precision items and won't be impacted. Everything else is set by blocks, calipers and just plain old thickness of the wood.

If you choose to move on from buying Festool because of this, the large pool of potential new customers excited about imperial Festools will gladly take your place.

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Mort

  • Posts: 355
  • World's Tallest Midget
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #130 on: June 22, 2016, 10:33 PM »
There sure is a lot of ire coming from people who won't be effected about a sticker on a track saw and a knob on a router.

I'll bet you can get yourself a sticker and knob from England for pretty cheap, warranty intact.

A crash and burn trying to expand in NA will have a dramatic impact on a company's international business. To you it's a sticker and a knob .. to me it's a fundamental floor in understanding the market and how customers will react.

When Australia went metric you could get stickers for you speedo for a wide range of cars .. fortunately that evolved.

I hardly think offering six tools in imperial will put Festool out of business.
I hate signatures.

Offline Mort

  • Posts: 355
  • World's Tallest Midget
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #131 on: June 22, 2016, 10:44 PM »


I'm also curious when Australia and the U.K. are going to start driving on the right so we can stop producing cars in right hand drive?


@Mort
Why change the subject. As a FOG member I am entitled to express my thoughts in this subject and, as I said in a previous post, I am just as surprised by the NA reaction here as I am of the decision.

As to driving on the right or left. I have driven in Europe, Canada and the US. My last trip to Europe covered 20,000 Kms. I actually prefer driving on the right hand side of the road and want it adopted here.

It's not changing the subject, it's an analogy. As someone who drives professionally on the right side of the road, I care very little what you do in Australia. It'd be cool to get one of those Holden Maloos here but other than that...

Strong opinions are fine, and I respect yours, I just don't get it. It's just a sticker and a knob. And it's not like you're putting a sticker over an etched or embossed label, it's over another sticker.
I hate signatures.

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 961
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #132 on: June 22, 2016, 10:54 PM »
it's not like you're putting a sticker over an etched or embossed label, it's over another sticker.

I think that this actually explains why the MFS has been dropped in NA.

Offline sprior

  • Posts: 449
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #133 on: June 22, 2016, 10:54 PM »
Well here's a response from a craftsman in an imperial dominant country is responding - after buying a decent selection of Festool tools and converting my process to metric despite the obvious issues with availability of metric hardware in the US I feel downright betrayed by Festool deciding not to continue to make their tools available in metric.  It makes no sense whatsoever to work in imperial and then switch to metric when using the LR-32 system.  Since making most of my Festool purchases I've also bought a 3D printer and a CNC and found that even in the US those things are almost exclusively metric so at the moment things are largely consistent in my shop.


4. It's interesting that many of the harshest responses have come from people outside of NA. Obviously, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but it will be interesting to see how the majority of craftsmen in imperial-dominant countries respond. The non-FOG response to this so far as been largely positive.

Offline Christopher Fitch

  • Posts: 91
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #134 on: June 22, 2016, 11:04 PM »
My 2 cents (as a US customer) though I'm somewhat certain it won't matter.

I'm surprised and somewhat dismayed at the approach Festool has taken in this matter. Ignoring the meaningless debate over Metric vs Imperial...

- Selling Metric-only scaled tools in the US has not been ideal for some given the differences. I can't say it's been great for me but the system is consistent.
- Selling Imperial-only scaled tools might be great for new US customers but now the system becomes extremely inconsistent for current customers and potentially makes additional outlays questionable. Furthermore, if Festool's plan is to add new customers who otherwise would not have bought in to the system due to Metric vs Imperial, then this is even more short-sighted because those new customers will still be faced with buying metric tools down the road and running in to all the potential issues this approach may trigger. This would add confusion etc. If the plan is to add more Imperial tools in the US over time then it might make more sense but it still seems problematic for all the same reasons. It's just strung out over time.
- Selling some solution allowing for ease of switching is better than the current approach.
- Continuing to sell metric tools along-side the new Imperial tools would be even better. This gives people real choice.
- Selling hybrid tools that combine both scales would have been the best approach . In addition, there is no extra work involved in this because you already have metric and merely adding an imperial scale along side would not cost anymore from a tooling standpoint since you already have committed to changing the tools for the US market.

As a final comment, this just seems to be a bizarre and not well-thought out decision. There were better ways to handle this and still achieve increasing market share.


Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6238
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #135 on: June 22, 2016, 11:21 PM »
I have yet to have anything I work on know whether I'm cutting, planeing, routing, Domino'ing using metric or imperial measurements.

Never understood the scale/measurement issues.

Tom

Offline thudchkr

  • Posts: 160
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #136 on: June 22, 2016, 11:35 PM »
A good fix for this situation would be to still make the conversion to imperial for future tools but make every 110v metric tool from the UK (that is currently available, none of the Naina stuff)
 available for order through US dealers. Festool as a company already has UL listing for those products so there's no hang up there.

If the metric items could be ordered from the UK then dealers wouldn't need a stockpile of both imperial and metric available. It would obviously take longer than current transit times to get those items but they'd be available and the customer who is ordering it would do so knowing it would take longer to recieve the item.

If festool backed this and still offered the 3 year warranty on those UK ordered items then everyone would be happy and you could go on introducing your imperial line in an effort to appeal to a broader US customer base. Win/win if you ask me.

I've pretty much converted to metric after getting into Festool.  Converted over my Incra and added Woodpecker rules and metric rules for my combination squares.  I don't want to be forced to purchase Imperial.  Make available metric and 110V to those of us here in NA that prefer them.  And provide the warranty for the premium tool line that we are paying a premium price for. 

Imperial is fine for those who wish them, just don't cut off those of us who've bought in to the system and want them in Metric.

Clint
Clint

TSC 55, TS 75, HKC 55, DF 500, DF 700, Kapex 120, UG Ext. Wings, MFK 700, OF 1010, OF 1400, OF 2200, CT 22, CT 26, ETS 150/3, ETS EQ 150/5, PRO 5, DTS 400, RO 90, RO 150, RAS 115, CXS, DWC 18-4500, MFT Kapex, MFT 3 (2), MFT 800, MFT 1080

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #137 on: June 22, 2016, 11:41 PM »
I hardly think offering six tools in imperial will put Festool out of business.

I have direct experience of what can bring a organisation unstuck and you'd be very surprised how insignificant the cause can seem.

... and to be clear, they are taking tools from their core range and converting all future local products to imperial while the rest of their range that is sold as a system is metric.

Look at the situation from a more than a "it doesn't bother me" perspective and ask why it's happening. Realistically there is concern in a hot track saw marketplace and this is a reaction. Companies (like people) make mistakes when they react. Instead of leading and innovating, Festool are following. Sometimes changing course and following while you get your house in order can be appropriate.

Consider a few points ...

1. It's already obvious that several existing NA customers are not happy - that's a negative.
2. There's no certainty that switching a few tools to imperial will have a significant impact on sales - that's a concern.
3. People appraising the imperial track saw may look at the rest of the system and go "hang on - this is supposed to be a system" - that's a risk.
4. Regardless of how insignificant you think a "label and a knob" are, it's obviously more significant than just offering both to the customer - so there's a cost.

Just to bend the subject back round to cars, realistically we'll have self drive way before we could effect an infrastructure change .. so it really doesn't matter if the steering wheel is absent from the left or the right of the car [wink]

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 615
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #138 on: June 23, 2016, 12:42 AM »
SOLUTION:

Buy the items you want (or may want), now before the inventory for metric is exhausted:


Item #   New Item #   Description
574553   574690      Planer HL 850 E Imp.
574339   574691      Router OF 1010 EQ Imp.
574342   574692      Router OF 1400 EQ Imp.
574354   574689      Router OF 2200 Imp.
561556   574683      Circular Saw TS 55 REQ Imp.
561438   574684      Circular Saw TS 75 EQ Imp.
561730   574685      Circular Saw TSC 55 REB Li
561718   574686      Circular Saw TSC 55REB Li XL
495717   201182      Parallel Side Fence
495718   201183      Parallel Guide Extension

For me, that would be:


561438 Circular Saw TS 75 EQ              $780.00
574342       OF 1400 EQ Router             $560.00
57000023    Parallel Guide Set               $335.00
                                                     ____________                                                 
                                                        $1,675.00
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #139 on: June 23, 2016, 01:00 AM »
SOLUTION:

Buy the items you want (or may want), now before the inventory for metric is exhausted:


that approach would exhaust my budget long before the invenory.
+1

Offline typeshige

  • Posts: 17
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #140 on: June 23, 2016, 02:23 AM »
SOLUTION:

Buy the items you want (or may want), now before the inventory for metric is exhausted:


Item #   New Item #   Description
574553   574690      Planer HL 850 E Imp.
574339   574691      Router OF 1010 EQ Imp.
574342   574692      Router OF 1400 EQ Imp.
574354   574689      Router OF 2200 Imp.
561556   574683      Circular Saw TS 55 REQ Imp.
561438   574684      Circular Saw TS 75 EQ Imp.
561730   574685      Circular Saw TSC 55 REB Li
561718   574686      Circular Saw TSC 55REB Li XL
495717   201182      Parallel Side Fence
495718   201183      Parallel Guide Extension

For me, that would be:


561438 Circular Saw TS 75 EQ              $780.00
574342       OF 1400 EQ Router             $560.00
57000023    Parallel Guide Set               $335.00
                                                     ____________                                                 
                                                        $1,675.00

I wish this was an option for me.  Why couldn't the parallel guides be offered in metric still?  I wasn't planning on getting it right this moment and I'm not trying to be dramatic, but I do feel a little bit of stress about getting stuff I want in metric before its gone.

I don't think I checked this forum as much in a day as I did today and it's all because I'm curious what folks think about this move.

I find myself agreeing with nearly all the pro-metric comments and it would please me to no end if Festool USA ends up reconsidering this move.

Like others said, the US is becoming metric in the technical fields.  In the sciences and medicine, it's all metric.  We talk about the size of semiconductors in nanometers.  Camera lenses are always in mm.  Most cars have bolts and nuts in metric. Etc.

I think the metric system is absolutely at home in fine wood working (I'm thinking furniture and cabinets) since we strive for precision and accuracy which is arguably easier with the metric system, but I admit for house builders putting up framing, I don't see it moving to metric.

So I think should the carpentry saws with the cross-cutting rails (HKC 55, HK 55, HK 85) ever come to the US market, those should absolutely have imperial units because it'll be used for house building primarily but perhaps keep the other stuff available in metric.

Thanks for listening.

Offline Ujipster

  • Posts: 30
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #141 on: June 23, 2016, 02:57 AM »
I bet you this is an economic decision to grow sales. Probably see them in home depot next. Interesting news.
TS55, OF1400, ETS125, RO150, MFT/3, CT36, PSB420, LR32, Sysport, CXS

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #142 on: June 23, 2016, 03:00 AM »
Wow.  I can't believe this thread is still going.  I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work. 

It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope.  I have the imperial sticker on my TS55.  I only use it as an initial guess at the thickness I'm cutting, but usually drop the blade to check clearances.  I do the same with other tools.
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 615
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #143 on: June 23, 2016, 05:13 AM »
Wow.  I can't believe this thread is still going.  I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work. 

It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope.  I have the imperial sticker on my TS55.  I only use it as an initial guess at the thickness I'm cutting, but usually drop the blade to check clearances.  I do the same with other tools.


This is an argument that could go both ways:

"It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope".

So you have never been to a Pharmacy, Dentist, Doctor, Vet or Hospital?

"I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work". 

Ever driven by a farm, and seen a green John Deere tractor out in the field?  Every nut and bolt on that tractor is in Metric.  The tractor can't be serviced without metric tools.

Metric is everywhere, even in this country.  You just need to open your eyes and think.
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline Jimdude

  • Posts: 49
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #144 on: June 23, 2016, 05:35 AM »
I have the imperial sticker on my TS55.  I only use it as an initial guess at the thickness I'm cutting, but usually drop the blade to check clearances.  I do the same with other tools.
with my metric scale, I don't have to guess and then double-check. YMMV

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #145 on: June 23, 2016, 07:46 AM »
Wow.  I can't believe this thread is still going.  I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work. 

It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope.  I have the imperial sticker on my TS55.  I only use it as an initial guess at the thickness I'm cutting, but usually drop the blade to check clearances.  I do the same with other tools.


This is an argument that could go both ways:

"It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope".

So you have never been to a Pharmacy, Dentist, Doctor, Vet or Hospital?

"I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work". 

Ever driven by a farm, and seen a green John Deere tractor out in the field?  Every nut and bolt on that tractor is in Metric.  The tractor can't be serviced without metric tools.

Metric is everywhere, even in this country.  You just need to open your eyes and think.

Sorry.  I work in the aerospace industry.  If we get anything in metric units we convert it to imperial units and go from there.  When I said "I don't know a single person in the US who..." I was limiting that to people who I actually know in engineering.  Come to think of it, my doctor uses imperial units for height and weight.  I don't know what doctors you are visiting.

I do think...I think some of these arguments for "metric or bust" are funny.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 07:55 AM by Ajax »
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #146 on: June 23, 2016, 07:49 AM »
I have the imperial sticker on my TS55.  I only use it as an initial guess at the thickness I'm cutting, but usually drop the blade to check clearances.  I do the same with other tools.
with my metric scale, I don't have to guess and then double-check. YMMV

So when I cut 3/4" or 5/4" boards I working with I should convert that millimeters and use the metric scale on my TS55?

Like I said, I have the imperial sticker on there and use it to get me close.
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline Jimdude

  • Posts: 49
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #147 on: June 23, 2016, 08:06 AM »
So when I cut 3/4" or 5/4" boards I working with I should convert that millimeters and use the metric scale on my TS55?

Like I said, I have the imperial sticker on there and use it to get me close.
I have 18mm boards, obviously. Doesn't change the fact I set the plungedepth without having to check with a phantom plunge.

How does that work anyway? You still don't know how deep you'll plunge unless the workpiece is hanging over an edge. But if you'd cut like that, you don't have splinter protection at the bottom. So you have to move the workpiece as well?

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #148 on: June 23, 2016, 08:18 AM »
I do think...I think some of these arguments for "metric or bust" are funny.

@Ajax

Your are not being nice.

These are serious concerns for people. Maybe you role in aerospace doesn't involve the metric system in ant way. Can't imagine that would be the case - but that's fine with me [smile]


Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #149 on: June 23, 2016, 08:27 AM »
So when I cut 3/4" or 5/4" boards I working with I should convert that millimeters and use the metric scale on my TS55?

Like I said, I have the imperial sticker on there and use it to get me close.
I have 18mm boards, obviously. Doesn't change the fact I set the plungedepth without having to check with a phantom plunge.

How does that work anyway? You still don't know how deep you'll plunge unless the workpiece is hanging over an edge. But if you'd cut like that, you don't have splinter protection at the bottom. So you have to move the workpiece as well?

I get it done.  All in imperial: plans, stock, layout and measuring tools, etc.

Like I said, the angst over Festool using imperial scales on their tools (which were designed and manufactured in metric units) is quite silly.  Here in NA most folks use imperial units.  That's a fact. 

And to be honest, the metric units on Festool products was a negative for me.  I liked the tools enough that I decided to by them and compensate (make imperial to metric conversions and apply imperial stickers as required).
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4726
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #150 on: June 23, 2016, 08:27 AM »
Continuing the general debate - metric vs. Imperial - in this thread is not helpful imo.

Which pattern of marks are on a stick matters little unless you have to communicate with others about which one of those marks is relevant to the project. If you work alone a "mute" story-stick is far more precise and foolproof.

But, only two of the tools that will change from metric to Imperial include simple scales on sticks; the Planer 850 and the Parallel Fence. Those two are simply stickers that could be changed and in the case of the Parallel rails the scale could be both metric and Imperial simultaneously.

The other tools have geared depth adjustments, either rack or screw. Will the Imperial gear range be higher or lower?

If the Imperial saw's depth adjustment rack is toothed in 1/32" increments it could be considered an improvement but if it is dumbed down to 1/16" increments...

I don't know of any router other than Festool that allow direct reading of depth adjustment finer than 1/128". Probably because of how much real estate it takes to express Imperial fractions. The existing Festool router depth adjustment allows direct reading of roughly 1/250" and it only takes a little white hash mark and an occasional single digit number to keep track of what the setting is.

I want to know more about the nuts and bolts of this change. The old general debate is a bore.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 08:31 AM by Michael Kellough »

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Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #151 on: June 23, 2016, 08:30 AM »
I do think...I think some of these arguments for "metric or bust" are funny.

@Ajax

Your are not being nice.

These are serious concerns for people. Maybe you role in aerospace doesn't involve the metric system in ant way. Can't imagine that would be the case - but that's fine with me [smile]

You take this way too seriously.  This is a forum about woodworking tools.  Live in your metric based world and be happy as I am in my imperial one.  Festool plans to cater to both if us.  What's wrong with that?
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 615
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #152 on: June 23, 2016, 08:53 AM »
Wow.  I can't believe this thread is still going.  I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work. 

It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope.  I have the imperial sticker on my TS55.  I only use it as an initial guess at the thickness I'm cutting, but usually drop the blade to check clearances.  I do the same with other tools.


This is an argument that could go both ways:

"It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope".

So you have never been to a Pharmacy, Dentist, Doctor, Vet or Hospital?

"I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work". 

Ever driven by a farm, and seen a green John Deere tractor out in the field?  Every nut and bolt on that tractor is in Metric.  The tractor can't be serviced without metric tools.

Metric is everywhere, even in this country.  You just need to open your eyes and think.

Sorry.  I work in the aerospace industry.  If we get anything in metric units we convert it to imperial units and go from there.  When I said "I don't know a single person in the US who..." I was limiting that to people who I actually know in engineering.  Come to think of it, my doctor uses imperial units for height and weight.  I don't know what doctors you are visiting.

I do think...I think some of these arguments for "metric or bust" are funny.


Thank you for adding that qualifier, concerning your broad statement about who you know and who you don't know when it comes to working with metric.   My Dad was an engineer and designed and patented many items during his working life.  Just to test your theory about engineers, I went back and looked at each of his patents , and all were drawn and submitted in metric  (These are 35 year old submissions).  I find it hard to believe that no one in the entire aerospace industry works with metric.  Having said that however, I don't know any high level engineers in that industry personally, so I will refrain from making a definitive statement.

You are correct that doctors will list weight and height using imperial, but they do that for your benefit not theirs.  They assume you don't understand metric.  Their explaining to you in imperial is the equivalent to you adding that imperial sticker to your saw, it is simply easier for them.   Trust me when I say, doctors are trained to think in metric first, as are pharmacists, dentists, nurses and vets, or anyone who deals with medicine or medical issues.

I would say that the mechanics who work on foreign cars, or John Deere tractors for that matter, think first in imperial, then metric (for wrench size), as they can simply look at a nut , and gauge what size metric wrench they will need from experience, not conversion.

Many posters on this thread are frustrated because they have made a considerable commitment/investment in learning and using the metric system, and are now shocked that Festool, specifically for the North American market, is switching from metric to imperial for certain tools. 

I don't find that genuine frustration funny at all.

   
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2298
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #153 on: June 23, 2016, 09:03 AM »
Wow.  I can't believe this thread is still going.  I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work. 

It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope.  I have the imperial sticker on my TS55.  I only use it as an initial guess at the thickness I'm cutting, but usually drop the blade to check clearances.  I do the same with other tools.
  As an automotive technician who works on Land Rovers, it's the only system of measurement I tend to see since Land Rover usually isn't that good at always giving an Imperial measurement alongside the standard Metric one for specs.
 However, as an amusing aside to all of this.  Picture working on the older Land Rovers that used the former GM V-8 that Rover bought from GM back in the '60s.
 We had SAE threads in places left from original GM tooling, Metric threads in places on the engine that Land Rover updated at some point, and some parts bolted to the vehicle were possibly Whitworth since neither an Imperial Wrench nor a Metric one fit the nut or bolt.... [eek]
 I'm totally fine with Metric, it's any haphazard approach to giving a Standard across a tool line or a vehicle for that matter that makes me laugh a bit since I've lived through Chaos of non-standardization before... [embarassed] [embarassed]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #154 on: June 23, 2016, 09:21 AM »
Wow.  I can't believe this thread is still going.  I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work. 

It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope.  I have the imperial sticker on my TS55.  I only use it as an initial guess at the thickness I'm cutting, but usually drop the blade to check clearances.  I do the same with other tools.


This is an argument that could go both ways:

"It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope".

So you have never been to a Pharmacy, Dentist, Doctor, Vet or Hospital?

"I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work". 

Ever driven by a farm, and seen a green John Deere tractor out in the field?  Every nut and bolt on that tractor is in Metric.  The tractor can't be serviced without metric tools.

Metric is everywhere, even in this country.  You just need to open your eyes and think.

Sorry.  I work in the aerospace industry.  If we get anything in metric units we convert it to imperial units and go from there.  When I said "I don't know a single person in the US who..." I was limiting that to people who I actually know in engineering.  Come to think of it, my doctor uses imperial units for height and weight.  I don't know what doctors you are visiting.

I do think...I think some of these arguments for "metric or bust" are funny.


Thank you for adding that qualifier, concerning your broad statement about who you know and who you don't know when it comes to working with metric.   My Dad was an engineer and designed and patented many items during his working life.  Just to test your theory about engineers, I went back and looked at each of his patents , and all were drawn and submitted in metric  (These are 35 year old submissions).  I find it hard to believe that no one in the entire aerospace industry works with metric.  Having said that however, I don't know any high level engineers in that industry personally, so I will refrain from making a definitive statement.

You are correct that doctors will list weight and height using imperial, but they do that for your benefit not theirs.  They assume you don't understand metric.  Their explaining to you in imperial is the equivalent to you adding that imperial sticker to your saw, it is simply easier for them.   Trust me when I say, doctors are trained to think in metric first, as are pharmacists, dentists, nurses and vets, or anyone who deals with medicine or medical issues.

I would say that the mechanics who work on foreign cars, or John Deere tractors for that matter, think first in imperial, then metric (for wrench size), as they can simply look at a nut , and gauge what size metric wrench they will need from experience, not conversion.

Many posters on this thread are frustrated because they have made a considerable commitment/investment in learning and using the metric system, and are now shocked that Festool, specifically for the North American market, is switching from metric to imperial for certain tools. 

I don't find that genuine frustration funny at all.

   

First off, I never said that metric isn't used in aerospace.  See Airbus.  I simply was talking about people "I know" in the industry.

Second, these folks who went metric when they bought into Festool can get a sticker to convert back to metric.  Problem solved.
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 961
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #155 on: June 23, 2016, 09:36 AM »
  As an automotive technician who works on Land Rovers, it's the only system of measurement I tend to see since Land Rover usually isn't that good at always giving an Imperial measurement alongside the standard Metric one for specs.
 However, as an amusing aside to all of this.  Picture working on the older Land Rovers that used the former GM V-8 that Rover bought from GM back in the '60s.
 We had SAE threads in places left from original GM tooling, Metric threads in places on the engine that Land Rover updated at some point, and some parts bolted to the vehicle were possibly Whitworth since neither an Imperial Wrench nor a Metric one fit the nut or bolt.... [eek]
 I'm totally fine with Metric, it's any haphazard approach to giving a Standard across a tool line or a vehicle for that matter that makes me laugh a bit since I've lived through Chaos of non-standardization before... [embarassed] [embarassed]

And I had to live with one of those vehicles, a Range Rover built during a change from imperial to metric which when you went to buy spare parts you had to quote the serial number and then you would get parts that may or may not fit because their records weren't that good.

Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #156 on: June 23, 2016, 09:43 AM »
Many posters on this thread are frustrated because they have made a considerable commitment/investment in learning and using the metric system, and are now shocked that Festool, specifically for the North American market, is switching from metric to imperial for certain tools. 

I don't find that genuine frustration funny at all.

Exactly!

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 930
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #157 on: June 23, 2016, 09:46 AM »
Having metric and imperial markings would be a better solution as it works for everyone, however, I realize that would not be possible on all tools. Stickers for TS's have been available from other sources for several years so it's not like there were not any options. The plus is that for most of the tools that change will be possible and can be done by the owner. Hopefully the changeover kits will be fairly priced.

Offline Jimdude

  • Posts: 49
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #158 on: June 23, 2016, 10:23 AM »
I get it done.  All in imperial: plans, stock, layout and measuring tools, etc.

Like I said, the angst over Festool using imperial scales on their tools (which were designed and manufactured in metric units) is quite silly.  Here in NA most folks use imperial units.  That's a fact. 
But this isn't - for me - about metric vs. imperial (coz that is no contest ;)  ), it's about your workflow. You 'approximate' with the scale, then do a phantom plunge (and afterwards adjust?). Why even bother with a scale to begin with, then?

Offline Nat X

  • Posts: 231
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #159 on: June 23, 2016, 10:36 AM »
Anyone who needs any semblance of accuracy is using a backlash-free depth gauge and making test cut after test cut before they risk a single fiber of valuable plastic, metal or hardwood. The amount of play in the depth turret of every single plunge router Festool makes should be far more cause for alarm than what units are printed anywhere. They're there for approximation only.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2298
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #160 on: June 23, 2016, 10:42 AM »
  As an automotive technician who works on Land Rovers, it's the only system of measurement I tend to see since Land Rover usually isn't that good at always giving an Imperial measurement alongside the standard Metric one for specs.
 However, as an amusing aside to all of this.  Picture working on the older Land Rovers that used the former GM V-8 that Rover bought from GM back in the '60s.
 We had SAE threads in places left from original GM tooling, Metric threads in places on the engine that Land Rover updated at some point, and some parts bolted to the vehicle were possibly Whitworth since neither an Imperial Wrench nor a Metric one fit the nut or bolt.... [eek]
 I'm totally fine with Metric, it's any haphazard approach to giving a Standard across a tool line or a vehicle for that matter that makes me laugh a bit since I've lived through Chaos of non-standardization before... [embarassed] [embarassed]

And I had to live with one of those vehicles, a Range Rover built during a change from imperial to metric which when you went to buy spare parts you had to quote the serial number and then you would get parts that may or may not fit because their records weren't that good.
  Ah yes, the 'should' fit era.... [doh] [doh] [bite tongue]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #161 on: June 23, 2016, 10:45 AM »
Some of you have asked about what increments and markings will be on the scales. I thought it might be easier to show than to tell. Here images of some of the new scales. Hopefully this will answer some questions.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline jumpinthefire

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #162 on: June 23, 2016, 10:52 AM »
Some of you have asked about what increments and markings will be on the scales. I thought it might be easier to show than to tell. Here images of some of the new scales. Hopefully this will answer some questions

  Im curious: I assume the depth ajustement of the "metric" TS55 is "1mm per click" for a lack of better term. What about the imperial version ?

Offline RL

  • Posts: 3040
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #163 on: June 23, 2016, 10:54 AM »
Tyler, one more photo of the micro-adjust on the router would be appreciated.

As I said back on page 1 or 2, the way I use the saw and router makes the scale practically irrelevant, but I think I like the imperial markings better.

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #164 on: June 23, 2016, 11:00 AM »
Some of you have asked about what increments and markings will be on the scales. I thought it might be easier to show than to tell. Here images of some of the new scales. Hopefully this will answer some questions

  Im curious: I assume the depth ajustement of the "metric" TS55 is "1mm per click" for a lack of better term. What about the imperial version ?

Because nothing else with the tool is changing, one full turn of the adjusting wheel will remain 1 mm (or 0.04 inches).
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #165 on: June 23, 2016, 11:05 AM »
Some of you have asked about what increments and markings will be on the scales. I thought it might be easier to show than to tell. Here images of some of the new scales. Hopefully this will answer some questions

  Im curious: I assume the depth ajustement of the "metric" TS55 is "1mm per click" for a lack of better term. What about the imperial version ?

Because nothing else with the tool is changing, one full turn of the adjusting wheel will remain 1 mm (or 0.04 inches).

Wow! It gets worse. So rather than re engineering the tools so that one turn equates to a common fraction in imperial like 1/16 1/32 or 1/64 you'll be left with some odd ball 1/25 to wrap your head around! [eek]

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #166 on: June 23, 2016, 11:06 AM »
Tyler, one more photo of the micro-adjust on the router would be appreciated.

As I said back on page 1 or 2, the way I use the saw and router makes the scale practically irrelevant, but I think I like the imperial markings better.

Does this help? I've also included the OF 2200 this time.246531-0246533-1
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #167 on: June 23, 2016, 11:10 AM »
Some of you have asked about what increments and markings will be on the scales. I thought it might be easier to show than to tell. Here images of some of the new scales. Hopefully this will answer some questions

  Im curious: I assume the depth ajustement of the "metric" TS55 is "1mm per click" for a lack of better term. What about the imperial version ?

Because nothing else with the tool is changing, one full turn of the adjusting wheel will remain 1 mm (or 0.04 inches).

It really is all stickers and pad printed markings! Did you really think Festool was going to reengineer the threads and parts needed to have 1/32 increments? So even on the routers, there will be two measurement systems! Ridiculous!

Offline Cochese

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #168 on: June 23, 2016, 11:13 AM »
Wow.  I can't believe this thread is still going.  I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work. 

It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope.  I have the imperial sticker on my TS55.  I only use it as an initial guess at the thickness I'm cutting, but usually drop the blade to check clearances.  I do the same with other tools.


This is an argument that could go both ways:

"It's just a unit of measure.  Put a conversion sticker on it if you can't cope".

So you have never been to a Pharmacy, Dentist, Doctor, Vet or Hospital?

"I don't know a single person in the US using the metric system in their daily work". 

Ever driven by a farm, and seen a green John Deere tractor out in the field?  Every nut and bolt on that tractor is in Metric.  The tractor can't be serviced without metric tools.

Metric is everywhere, even in this country.  You just need to open your eyes and think.

Sorry.  I work in the aerospace industry.  If we get anything in metric units we convert it to imperial units and go from there.  When I said "I don't know a single person in the US who..." I was limiting that to people who I actually know in engineering.  Come to think of it, my doctor uses imperial units for height and weight.  I don't know what doctors you are visiting.

I do think...I think some of these arguments for "metric or bust" are funny.


Thank you for adding that qualifier, concerning your broad statement about who you know and who you don't know when it comes to working with metric.   My Dad was an engineer and designed and patented many items during his working life.  Just to test your theory about engineers, I went back and looked at each of his patents , and all were drawn and submitted in metric  (These are 35 year old submissions).  I find it hard to believe that no one in the entire aerospace industry works with metric.  Having said that however, I don't know any high level engineers in that industry personally, so I will refrain from making a definitive statement.

You are correct that doctors will list weight and height using imperial, but they do that for your benefit not theirs.  They assume you don't understand metric.  Their explaining to you in imperial is the equivalent to you adding that imperial sticker to your saw, it is simply easier for them.  Trust me when I say, doctors are trained to think in metric first, as are pharmacists, dentists, nurses and vets, or anyone who deals with medicine or medical issues.

I would say that the mechanics who work on foreign cars, or John Deere tractors for that matter, think first in imperial, then metric (for wrench size), as they can simply look at a nut , and gauge what size metric wrench they will need from experience, not conversion.

Many posters on this thread are frustrated because they have made a considerable commitment/investment in learning and using the metric system, and are now shocked that Festool, specifically for the North American market, is switching from metric to imperial for certain tools. 

I don't find that genuine frustration funny at all.

   

At best this is mixed truth, at worst purely anecdotal. I am in healthcare, and see charts all day. Both units are used, and used interchangeably. You might see imperial on one form, metric on another. One I'm looking at right now has both listed concurrently. Height, weight, temperature, etc. Fluid units and wound sizes are increasingly metric-dominant in their documentation, but it isn't anywhere near standard.

It works a bit like I would imagine most US-based hobbyist woodworkers do now - use both. While I have adopted some measures of metric into my shop, it is decidedly a mixed effort, and will continue to be so. I have struggled at times with converting back and forth, and my next project I'm going to attempt purely in metric (because the design I base it off of is of the Swedish persuasion). I can't think of a single instance where having those tools designed in metric caused me trouble working in imperial, and I have the TS55, OF1010, OF1400 among others.

I can see the argument for it, and somewhat agree: if you can change something to increase your userbase with minimal cost, you try it. Let's face facts, those who have bought into the Festool system wholeheartedly aren't going to drop off because some tools (that they likely already own) are going imperial. There will be some huffing and puffing, but I would think the risk of alienating devout metricians (did I make that up?) is far less than the prospect of increasing the footprint. The foreign commentary is the least surprising thing about this. As an American who frequents forums for English football and ARF, among others, the opportunity for commentary about how Americans do things very rarely goes by silent. We love you, and you love us.

All that said, I don't think it is the obstacle that is making the market lag. I very often hear price as the barrier, and rarely the units being used. I can't say what market research Festool has done to say otherwise, but I'm sure they have.

I've come to accept metric, and have even come to know some advantages by being forced into it by Festool. I don't know if I would call this move a mistake, but it sure is interesting. If the fine adjustments are still being done in tenths, there really is a big to do over very little.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 11:39 AM by Cochese »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #169 on: June 23, 2016, 11:15 AM »
Continuing the general debate - metric vs. Imperial - in this thread is not helpful imo.


I want to know more about the nuts and bolts of this change.


I agree.  And now with the pics and info from Tyler we have a little more to go on.

Seth

Offline pixelated

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #170 on: June 23, 2016, 11:35 AM »
I don't currently own any Festool cutting tools, however my preference, FWIW, would be to have the option to buy the tool with metric or imperial scales or include both systems on the scale. Especially if the adjusters are metric anyway. My choice would be the metric tool.

Like a few others, I am measuring system ambidextrous, I prefer metric because of the simplicity but switch to imperial when needed.


Offline Cochese

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #171 on: June 23, 2016, 11:38 AM »
If the depth mechanisms aren't going to change off of 1/10th graduations, it seems like the most intelligent solution would be just to introduce dual measurement guides on those tools. Best of all worlds. Metric users still get metric, and the advantage of decimal graduations, and the imperial users get the comfort of using a system they are accustomed to.

I would assume there is some detail I'm missing about why this can't be done.

Offline Paul G

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #172 on: June 23, 2016, 11:39 AM »
@TylerC Sorry if I missed it, but is there any word yet regarding the details of changing a metric TS75 to imperial?
+1

Offline mwildt

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #173 on: June 23, 2016, 11:41 AM »
So we cannot get metric anymore or are there now two part numbers ?

Offline Paul G

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #174 on: June 23, 2016, 11:43 AM »
So we cannot get metric anymore or are there now two part numbers ?

Per the current info, the metric counterparts of the imperial tools will not continue in the US.
+1

Offline robertgreen94

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #175 on: June 23, 2016, 12:04 PM »
Now that you are going imperial, should the tracksaws be called the TS 2 & 11/64ths and TS 2 61/64ths for the TS55 and TS75 respectively

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #176 on: June 23, 2016, 12:30 PM »
Since Tyler supplied photos we now know Festool has dumbed down the tools for the American market. Instead of mm increments (~1/25") new tool buyers will only get 1/16" increments.

Thinking about it more, adjusting the router depth would actually fit well with the way I work, thinking in inches and converting to mm for fine adjustments. The router's gross depth adjustment will be set in inches (I would rather it was 32nds) and fine adjustments will still be in mm and sub-mm increments.

But what about the other scales on the router? The black plastic T thing that has mm increments. It's actually useful with mm hash marks but if those marks are nearly twice as far apart, not good.

I still want to know if the saw scale is the only thing that has changed (just a coarser sticker?) or has the rack also been re-toothed to 1/16" increments?

Offline mwildt

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #177 on: June 23, 2016, 12:31 PM »
While it is nice to have Festool be market sensitive some of us are already working in metric and now we're out of luck. Not a NICE move.

Please don't mess with existing customer base just to gain influence on another, totally back stabbing us here.

Since it all is a simple scale change it should be possible to accommodate both sides better than this approach. Like just supply them in the box with instructions or support a special order scheme.

Guess one will have to reconsider if this system is worth investing in going forward.

Offline GarryMartin

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #178 on: June 23, 2016, 12:31 PM »
2. Providing two versions of the same tools simply doesn't make sense. It would be far too expensive and complicated to simultaneously provide both tools. Other power tool manufacturers don't offer both metric and imperial versions of their tools either. It's easy to say, "Just make both." It's much harder to actually pull off in a financially feasible way.

Will this change in any slow the introduction of new tools to NA even further given the additional engineering that it seems is required to change from a default metric design to an Imperial one?

I had, it appears mistakenly given recent posts, assumed there was some engineering change behind this too to change the functions that adjust the tool to Imperial equivalents; so the "clicks" of the adjustment on TS 55R would be in Imperial increments, and a full turn of the fine adjustment knob on a OF 1400 would be an Imperial equivalent for example.

So are we really saying this is just a change of measurement sticker? And if it is, why can't a metric equivalent sticker be put in the box in the same way that I understand Imperial stickers have been provided for the TS 55R in the past? Surely that would then provide the best of both worlds?

I'm a bit lost if I'm honest.  [huh]

Offline rizzoa13

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #179 on: June 23, 2016, 12:43 PM »
Something doesn't seem right here... Your going to change the sticker (marking plate on some tools) only but phase out the metric equivalents completely in the U.S.? That's just so illogical.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #180 on: June 23, 2016, 12:45 PM »
@Paul G    @Michael Kellough

     One of Tyler's pictures shows the TS75 with imperial scale.

     Tyler replied that nothing but the scale markings will change ...... one click will still be one mm.

Seth

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Offline robertgreen94

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #181 on: June 23, 2016, 12:49 PM »
If we could order the metric scale, instead of adding in the box, then the customers would have the choice of which to use.   Obviously you are making the metric scales, so having the ability to order would be good.

Come to think of it, if i have a metric tool and my scale is damaged, would it be replaced with a metric or imperial scale on the relevant tools?

Thanks, Robert

Offline Paul G

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #182 on: June 23, 2016, 12:52 PM »
@Paul G    @Michael Kellough

     One of Tyler's pictures shows the TS75 with imperial scale.

     Tyler replied that nothing but the scale markings will change ...... one click will still be one mm.

Seth

Yup, I saw the picture. My question is can I change my metric version to imperial or do I have to buy a new saw.
+1

Offline bobfog

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #183 on: June 23, 2016, 12:52 PM »
2. Providing two versions of the same tools simply doesn't make sense. It would be far too expensive and complicated to simultaneously provide both tools. Other power tool manufacturers don't offer both metric and imperial versions of their tools either. It's easy to say, "Just make both." It's much harder to actually pull off in a financially feasible way.

Will this change in any slow the introduction of new tools to NA even further given the additional engineering that it seems is required to change from a default metric design to an Imperial one?

I had, it appears mistakenly given recent posts, assumed there was some engineering change behind this too to change the functions that adjust the tool to Imperial equivalents; so the "clicks" of the adjustment on TS 55R would be in Imperial increments, and a full turn of the fine adjustment knob on a OF 1400 would be an Imperial equivalent for example.

So are we really saying this is just a change of measurement sticker? And if it is, why can't a metric equivalent sticker be put in the box in the same way that I understand Imperial stickers have been provided for the TS 55R in the past? Surely that would then provide the best of both worlds?

I'm a bit lost if I'm honest.  [huh]

Either we're missing something that hasn't been properly explained or the lunatics have well and truly taken over the asylum! Because a) having metrics detent logged against an imperial scale is a half assed job to put it mildly and b) if this is just a matter of a different scale then Festool are making a decision beyond all conventional measures of stupidity not to simply offer the NA market both imperial and metric.


Offline BobCard

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #184 on: June 23, 2016, 12:58 PM »
I am so terribly disappointed by the announcement about the switch to Imperial. What will I do in my all-metric shop?  The news that the router (and TS?) will actually have a MIX of Imperial (for gross settings) and metric (for fine adjustments) only makes it worse, in my eyes.  I can't imagine setting my tool to cut something like 3/4", and then make my fine adjustments in millimeters.  That makes my head spin.  Metric is simple, accurate, and straightforward.

 Added to this mix, is that only some tools are switching to Imperial while the others remain metric.  Ugh.  They should all stay metric.

Metric is much more accurate and much easier.  Frankly I also don't understand Tyler's comments that it is not economically feasible to offer tools in both Metric and Imperial.  Because if that were true, Festool would NOT be switching its North American tools to Imperial, while the rest of the world remains metric (and 220 volt).

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #185 on: June 23, 2016, 01:16 PM »
The saw scale will change to 1/16" but the rack that actually fixes the depth will remain metric?!

This is simply wrong on several levels.

This is the IKEA-ization of Festool. 30 or so years ago IKEA brought relatively sophisticated European design (though cheaply fabricated) to the American market but it has steadily dumbed the design vocabulary down to vague cheap versions of "traditional" American stuff. Pandering to the lowest common denominator, approximately.

Offline RL

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #186 on: June 23, 2016, 01:31 PM »
The saw scale will change to 1/16" but the rack that actually fixes the depth will remain metric?!

This is simply wrong on several levels.

This is the IKEA-ization of Festool. 30 or so years ago IKEA brought relatively sophisticated European design (though cheaply fabricated) to the American market but it has steadily dumbed the design vocabulary down to vague cheap versions of "traditional" American stuff. Pandering to the lowest common denominator, approximately.

I'm unsure who they are pandering to. It's a joke. I have to believe this is originating from the sales department because it makes no sense from an engineering perspective.

If they had gone fully imperial and changed the detents, clicks etc. as well as just the sticker, then maybe it would make sense. But to change the sticker whilst leaving the underlying machine metric is utter nonsense. It's a hodge-podge of both systems which leaves both sets of users disadvantaged. Now the clicks won't even line up with the sticker marks!

Is it April 1st already?


Offline typeshige

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #187 on: June 23, 2016, 01:32 PM »
Maybe I read it wrong a few pages but, but I thought someone said changes were more than just stickers, but from what has been shown, it looks like just stickers.

i.e. each knob turn is exactly what it was before.

If so, shouldn't we be able to put the sticker we want to use ourselves?

Offline GhostFist

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #188 on: June 23, 2016, 01:59 PM »
Here's something, perhaps a major us distributer has adhered to carrying x number of units in their stores, nationality, giving festool guaranteed sales #'s for the year, on the condition that the products are sold with imperial markings. Festool will branch further away from unified product development,to developing specifically for European and American markets separately in an effort to minimize losses.
Boom! Next is that PRC label on your tools

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #189 on: June 23, 2016, 02:16 PM »
So.

Let's summarize the actual changes.

1.  Festool is essentially doing nothing more than changing the marking sticker on the routers and a plastic marking part on the saws and a marking sticker on the parallel guides. 

2.  Festool is not changing the lead screws on the routers, so the micrometer adjustments are still being made in tenths of a mm.

3. The only real change to the parallel guides is that the scale is being changed.

4.  Festool will not offer metric versions of any of the tools in North America despite the only real changes amounting to stickers. 

5.  Depth changes on tools will present relatively little impact on their use but the parallel guides is the one change that has a fundamental change in the usage of the tool since it's entire purpose is to be a linear measurement stick.

6.  Tools will continue to be sold at super premium prices.

Predicted Impacts.

1.  Having imperial depth markings may result in a slight increase in tools but it will be limited by the fact that super premium pricing is the first thing controlling sales.  Many customers set depths in ways that have little to do with the indicated scale anyway.  The only sales that will result in having imperial depth scales will be to customers who have lots of money, are willing to pluck it down, and have a severe aversion to metric depth scales.  Meanwhile, existing customers who have converted to metric are offended because Festool despite charging super premium prices is too cheap or too stubborn to at least provide a metric retrofit sticker.

2.  Parallel guide substitutes are available in both metric and imperial markings by numerous other companies at lower prices.  Festool will only sell imperial marked parallel guides.  Markings on parallel guides are much more fundamental than depth scales on other tools.   Sales of parallel guides would likely be maximized by offering both versions or at least a conversion sticker.

3.  A good portion of Festool's market is cabinetmaker's both professional and hobbiest.  32 mm systems mean that a good portion of are already using metric.  I don't see Festool picking up a lot of framing carpenters for track saws regardless of depth measurement, dust extractors have nothing to do with this, sanders have nothing to do with this, drills have nothing to do with this.

It makes no sense not to offer metric parallel guides especially considering that people who buy LR32 rails probably buy parallel guides and want them to be metric since LR32 is part of the 32 mm system.  Don't forget the Domino system in this

4.  Festool could probably sell more 1010 and 1400 routers and LR32 sets by making holed tracks standard with track saw packages and MFT tables.  I bet the impact would be greater than
changing the scales to imperial while refusing to provide metric scales.

5.  It was cabinet making, that got me into festools parallel guides and metric.  Since then, I have bought Fastcap metric tape measures, Starrett metric rules for my combination squares and woodpeckers squares in metric.  Festool is missing out on system sales that aftermarketer's are nailing.  Clamps, parallel guides, dogs, measurement, squares, MFT alignment, etc.

Final analysis.

Offering imperial only depth scales and parallel guides will not increase sales of expensive tools that are sold to finish carpenters, furniture makers, cabinetmakers, and premium hobby buyers.  It will not increase sales of expensive tools to framing carpenters or D.I.Y.'s who buy bargain brands at home centers. 

Festool can increase sales by improving the MFT table which suffers from a fence that is too thick for 1/2" (12mm) ply products, a fence that causes a loss of too much cross cut capacity, does not retain fence to rail perpendicularity after height changes due to lack of a Slop Stop like improvement and other needed improvements.  (I realign to a few thoudandths using a dial indicator and Woodpecker's square to obtain sliding table saw quality work), and a clumsy parallel guide system that could easily be modified with cursors for more precise adjustment.

Festools are purchased by me because they allow me to do work to the same degree of precision as a shop equipped with sliding table saws and 32 mm spindle line boring machines.  For a few thousand dollars, I can produce work that a shop containing ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment produces (at a much slower rate of course.).

That's why I bought your tools.  Give me more of that.  Better dust extraction.  Give me more of that.  Look at what happened with the dust extractor sales.  Study that.  Offer a better discount for package deals than a measly 10%.  Drop your pricing a little bit on both the hardware and the replacement items and you will lose less sales to Bosch, Makita, Fein, and now even Dewalt who are starting to get on board with dust extraction.  Offer LR32 ready tracks standard with track saw sales to distinguish yourself from Makita and Dewalt.

Listen to the people who buy your tools now and buy aftermarket tools that are necessary due to your failure to capitalize on the strength and value of your products.


Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #190 on: June 23, 2016, 02:43 PM »
@Paul G    @Michael Kellough

     One of Tyler's pictures shows the TS75 with imperial scale.

     Tyler replied that nothing but the scale markings will change ...... one click will still be one mm.

Seth

Yup, I saw the picture. My question is can I change my metric version to imperial or do I have to buy a new saw.


Aaah, sorry , missed the wording.

Offline TylerC

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #191 on: June 23, 2016, 02:48 PM »
@TylerC Sorry if I missed it, but is there any word yet regarding the details of changing a metric TS75 to imperial?

You haven't missed it. In the next few weeks, we'll begin allowing people to send in their metric tools to have them converted to imperial (for a fee). The whole thing is still getting finalized.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline GarryMartin

  • Posts: 1838
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #192 on: June 23, 2016, 03:21 PM »
@TylerC Sorry if I missed it, but is there any word yet regarding the details of changing a metric TS75 to imperial?

You haven't missed it. In the next few weeks, we'll begin allowing people to send in their metric tools to have them converted to imperial (for a fee). The whole thing is still getting finalized.

There has to be some engineering in this too then surely? You wouldn't send your saw in to get a sticker applied...

No disrespect @TylerC, but this is making no sense and I wonder whether there's been a communication error with regard to the actual changes that are being made. The only thing that would make sense at this point is if components were being changed such that the major adjustments on the tool became Imperial increments.

Can you please check your information?

Offline rizzoa13

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #193 on: June 23, 2016, 03:42 PM »
Oh your forcing imperial on the U.S. customers AND you'll even switch it over for a fee? Im not trying to start trouble but holy junk I feel like I'm being trolled right now.

Offline TylerC

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #194 on: June 23, 2016, 03:50 PM »
@TylerC Sorry if I missed it, but is there any word yet regarding the details of changing a metric TS75 to imperial?

You haven't missed it. In the next few weeks, we'll begin allowing people to send in their metric tools to have them converted to imperial (for a fee). The whole thing is still getting finalized.

There has to be some engineering in this too then surely? You wouldn't send your saw in to get a sticker applied...

No disrespect @TylerC, but this is making no sense and I wonder whether there's been a communication error with regard to the actual changes that are being made. The only thing that would make sense at this point is if components were being changed such that the major adjustments on the tool became Imperial increments.

Can you please check your information?

For some tools (like the track saws) we can just send a sticker. For others (like the parallel guide extensions) it's a big more complicated than just throwing a sticker on top.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline SoonerFan

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #195 on: June 23, 2016, 03:56 PM »
Honestly I keep checking this thread hoping to see all tools will be available in metric going forward.  In other words imperial is an option in NA.  I want a TS75 but timing is not right.  I don't want 55 in metric and 75 in imperial. 

Sort of speechless at this point. 

Offline TylerC

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #196 on: June 23, 2016, 03:56 PM »
Oh your forcing imperial on the U.S. customers AND you'll even switch it over for a fee? Im not trying to start trouble but holy junk I feel like I'm being trolled right now.

No one is forcing you to retrofit their metric tools.

People have been asking us for years to switch to imperial. For all of the people who bought a metric tool and would prefer it in imperial, we're giving them the opportunity to get it in imperial without having to buy a new tool.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #197 on: June 23, 2016, 04:09 PM »
Oh your forcing imperial on the U.S. customers AND you'll even switch it over for a fee? Im not trying to start trouble but holy junk I feel like I'm being trolled right now.

No one is forcing you to retrofit their metric tools.

People have been asking us for years to switch to imperial. For all of the people who bought a metric tool and would prefer it in imperial, we're giving them the opportunity to get it in imperial without having to buy a new tool.

You aren't listening.  Your existing customers are mad because your new tools will only come in imperial.  They have invested in existing tools, they have converted to metric for their own reasons, and they want future access to metric tools.  Your tools are very expensive and yet you won't even consider supplying an inexpensive metric sticker with your future tools.

Do you really think millions of harbor freight buyers are going to buy your tools because of imperial depth settings?

I guarantee you that aftermarketers who currently make imperial scales for your tools will now start making metric scales for your tools.

Kinda silly.

Offline Cochese

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #198 on: June 23, 2016, 04:16 PM »
I think perhaps at this point it might be wise to temporarily close the thread until more details come about. It just invites an opportunity to get mad at incomplete information.

Offline Holmz

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #199 on: June 23, 2016, 04:20 PM »
I think perhaps at this point it might be wise to temporarily close the thread until more details come about. It just invites an opportunity to get mad at incomplete information.

It may be worthwhile for them to know. It is like a free survey.

On the other hand maybe they have done a survey.

Offline Wooden Skye

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #200 on: June 23, 2016, 04:22 PM »
Closing this thread I don't think is necessary, but if questions come up, I think we should give @TylerC the opportunity and time to get the answers, not speculate.  I just want to say that Tyler is getting slammed for doing his job and presenting announcements to this group.  Tyler in my opinion you are doing a good job, keep it up.

So the general rule of thumb was to add 5 or 6 mm to compensate for the rail, what is the new recommendation?  5 mm is equal to .19 inches.
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline Cochese

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #201 on: June 23, 2016, 04:24 PM »
Closing this thread I don't think is necessary, but if questions come up, I think we should give @TylerC the opportunity and time to get the answers, not speculate.  I just want to say that Tyler is getting slammed for doing his job and presenting announcements to this group.  Tyler in my opinion you are doing a good job, keep it up.

So the general rule of thumb was to add 5 or 6 mm to compensate for the rail, what is the new recommendation?  5 mm is equal to .19 inches.

It was more about that. Bit unfair for Tyler to be the messenger that others shoot.

Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #202 on: June 23, 2016, 04:38 PM »
You aren't listening.  Your existing customers are mad because your new tools will only come in imperial.  They have invested in existing tools, they have converted to metric for their own reasons, and they want future access to metric tools.  Your tools are very expensive and yet you won't even consider supplying an inexpensive metric sticker with your future tools.

Do you really think millions of harbor freight buyers are going to buy your tools because of imperial depth settings?

I guarantee you that aftermarketers who currently make imperial scales for your tools will now start making metric scales for your tools.

Kinda silly.

Exactly!

Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #203 on: June 23, 2016, 04:42 PM »
Closing this thread I don't think is necessary, but if questions come up, I think we should give @TylerC the opportunity and time to get the answers, not speculate.  I just want to say that Tyler is getting slammed for doing his job and presenting announcements to this group.  Tyler in my opinion you are doing a good job, keep it up.

So the general rule of thumb was to add 5 or 6 mm to compensate for the rail, what is the new recommendation?  5 mm is equal to .19 inches.

I don't think anyone here has attacked @TylerC - he is just doing his job here.

Offline Wooden Skye

  • Posts: 1165
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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #204 on: June 23, 2016, 04:49 PM »
Closing this thread I don't think is necessary, but if questions come up, I think we should give @TylerC the opportunity and time to get the answers, not speculate.  I just want to say that Tyler is getting slammed for doing his job and presenting announcements to this group.  Tyler in my opinion you are doing a good job, keep it up.

So the general rule of thumb was to add 5 or 6 mm to compensate for the rail, what is the new recommendation?  5 mm is equal to .19 inches.

I don't think anyone here has attacked @TylerC - he is just doing his job here.

I didn't say he is being attacked, but he is taking the brunt of the backlash.  I know his job is to be the voice of Festool on here, but he didn't make this decision, he is just putting it out there.
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #205 on: June 23, 2016, 04:53 PM »
Closing this thread I don't think is necessary, but if questions come up, I think we should give @TylerC the opportunity and time to get the answers, not speculate.  I just want to say that Tyler is getting slammed for doing his job and presenting announcements to this group.  Tyler in my opinion you are doing a good job, keep it up.

So the general rule of thumb was to add 5 or 6 mm to compensate for the rail, what is the new recommendation?  5 mm is equal to .19 inches.

Sorry, but I totally disagree.

1.  Festool's rep tells us that the change to imperial only is being made and that only imperial will be offered.
2.  FOG'ers complain about not being allowed to have a choice.
3.  Festool's rep says choice can't be allowed because there are too many changes to the tools and it would be too expensive to offer a choice.
4.  Then festool's rep shows us pictures and makes statements that tell us only the scales on the routers are being changed and not lead screws on the micrometer adjustments.
5.  Festoolers are now frustrated by a bad choice and possible misinformation from Festool's rep.

At least  two FOG'ers blame other FOG'ers for Festool's rep botching the information roll out and saying he is doing his job when really we are confused due to his statements.  If Festool's rep didn't know what Festool is actually doing, then perhaps he should have waited until he understood what Festool was doing.  I don't see why we should be blamed for reacting to information then having the information changed on us and then rereacting.




Offline Wooden Skye

  • Posts: 1165
  • My little girl was called home 12-28-15
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #206 on: June 23, 2016, 05:11 PM »
Closing this thread I don't think is necessary, but if questions come up, I think we should give @TylerC the opportunity and time to get the answers, not speculate.  I just want to say that Tyler is getting slammed for doing his job and presenting announcements to this group.  Tyler in my opinion you are doing a good job, keep it up.

So the general rule of thumb was to add 5 or 6 mm to compensate for the rail, what is the new recommendation?  5 mm is equal to .19 inches.

Sorry, but I totally disagree.

1.  Festool's rep tells us that the change to imperial only is being made and that only imperial will be offered.  Festool's right as a company.
2.  FOG'ers complain about not being allowed to have a choice. Do you get a choice for everything you buy?
3.  Festool's rep says choice can't be allowed because there are too many changes to the tools and it would be too expensive to offer a choice.  Again Festool's choice, but I agree with you that alternatives could be presented to customers at very minimal cost.
4.  Then festool's rep shows us pictures and makes statements that tell us only the scales on the routers are being changed and not lead screws on the micrometer adjustments. There were also pictures of the track saw, but if no changes to micro adjust that should be done would be an issue.
5.  Festoolers are now frustrated by a bad choice and possible misinformation from Festool's rep.  I don't like the change either, but Tyler should be given the time to get the right answers, even if that takes time so no misinformation is given.

At least  two FOG'ers blame other FOG'ers for Festool's rep botching the information roll out and saying he is doing his job when really we are confused due to his statements.  If Festool's rep didn't know what Festool is actually doing, then perhaps he should have waited until he understood what Festool was doing.  I don't see why we should be blamed for reacting to information then having the information changed on us and then rereacting.  I agree this could have and should have been handled better, for example, after it was announced, a senior member of management or engineering should have chimed in to provide the right answers.  I would guess management went to Tyler and said please announce on the FOG not grasping that the forum would react they way it did.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 05:13 PM by Wooden Skye »
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline promark747

  • Posts: 477
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #207 on: June 23, 2016, 05:15 PM »
The whole thing seems very un-Festool.  For all the issues over the years with products not getting UL approval (or Festool not wanting to go through the process), it seems ironic to introduce an "imperial" saw where the internal gradations are actually in metric.  Not that it really matters for safety, but I can't help but wonder whether that could get a manufacturer in trouble. Some schmuck will claim he injured himself because the depth setting said 1" but in reality the saw was set to 27 mm.

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #208 on: June 23, 2016, 05:18 PM »
Oh your forcing imperial on the U.S. customers AND you'll even switch it over for a fee? Im not trying to start trouble but holy junk I feel like I'm being trolled right now.

No one is forcing you to retrofit their metric tools.

People have been asking us for years to switch to imperial. For all of the people who bought a metric tool and would prefer it in imperial, we're giving them the opportunity to get it in imperial without having to buy a new tool.

You aren't listening.  Your existing customers are mad because your new tools will only come in imperial.  They have invested in existing tools, they have converted to metric for their own reasons, and they want future access to metric tools.  Your tools are very expensive and yet you won't even consider supplying an inexpensive metric sticker with your future tools.

Do you really think millions of harbor freight buyers are going to buy your tools because of imperial depth settings?

I guarantee you that aftermarketers who currently make imperial scales for your tools will now start making metric scales for your tools.

Kinda silly.

His post was complaining about offering to convert existing metric tools. Not liking that we're switching to imperial is fine. (And, yes, I am listening.) Not liking that we're including an additional optional service is something else.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #209 on: June 23, 2016, 05:42 PM »
I appreciate the personal encouragement from a few of you, but I'm fine. Yeah, the last two days haven't been fun, but my job isn't to have fun. This is about you all. It isn't about me.

If there are things that I haven't answered yet or haven't been clear enough about, I apologize. The answers about retrofitting tools are vague because the process hasn't been completely finalized yet.

To be honest, I knew that there would be some negative reactions on the FOG. You all are our most passionate and long-time customers, and you're more likely to be committed to metric than other craftsmen. I completely understand that some of you aren't happy about this, and you're entitled to that.

I don't mind criticism. It makes Festool better. I'd just ask that you give us the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean that you have to like this decision, but please appreciate that we're trying -- sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing, sometimes TBD -- to do what's in the best interest of a wide variety of people (current customers, new/potential customers, dealers, and ourselves to name a few). It's a tricky balancing act, and I'm sure that you can relate to that in your own work or personal lives. This decision was made because SO many people over the years have asked us to do so. We can't please everyone.

How about this for a plan:
If you have a specific question, please ask by the end of tomorrow (Friday). If it's a question that you've already asked that hasn't been (thoroughly) answered, feel free to ask again. I'll be traveling all next week with several other people involved in this decision and transition. During the trip, I'll try to get as many answers and clarifications that I can.

We'll be traveling to Germany, so please be patient if I'm slow to post answers. Due to the combination of jetlag and a jam-packed itinerary, I can almost guarantee that I won't be on the FOG much.

We don't necessarily need to shut this thread down after tomorrow night, but let's try to generally wrap it up then -- at least until I return with your answers. Sound fair?
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #210 on: June 23, 2016, 05:56 PM »
If only the sticker is changing, it should be easy and cost effective to offer both imperial and metric.  That is something a premium tool manufacturer would do.
Each dealer could order whatever he felt that he could sell.

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #211 on: June 23, 2016, 05:57 PM »
Oh your forcing imperial on the U.S. customers AND you'll even switch it over for a fee? Im not trying to start trouble but holy junk I feel like I'm being trolled right now.

No one is forcing you to retrofit their metric tools.

People have been asking us for years to switch to imperial. For all of the people who bought a metric tool and would prefer it in imperial, we're giving them the opportunity to get it in imperial without having to buy a new tool.

You aren't listening.  Your existing customers are mad because your new tools will only come in imperial.  They have invested in existing tools, they have converted to metric for their own reasons, and they want future access to metric tools.  Your tools are very expensive and yet you won't even consider supplying an inexpensive metric sticker with your future tools.

Do you really think millions of harbor freight buyers are going to buy your tools because of imperial depth settings?

I guarantee you that aftermarketers who currently make imperial scales for your tools will now start making metric scales for your tools.

Kinda silly.

His post was complaining about offering to convert existing metric tools. Not liking that we're switching to imperial is fine. (And, yes, I am listening.) Not liking that we're including an additional optional service is something else.

Again, you are not listening.  His post said. "Oh your forcing imperial on the U.S. customers AND you'll even switch it over for a fee? Im not trying to start trouble but holy junk I feel like I'm being trolled right now."

He can clarify for himself, but I think it highly more likely that his statement, "forcing imperial on U.S. customers" is a reference to the fact that you stated the tools in question would be offered in Imperial ONLY despite the fact it's a sticker change.

I think it makes a lot more sense that he is upset that he will not be able to buy metric scaled metric tools in the future then your interpretation that he thinks he would be forced to send in tools for conversion.  He is most likely pointing out the absurdity that Festool offers a service to rescale metric scaled metric tools already purchased to imperial scaled metric tools for a fee but won't include a simple sticker to keep a metric tool metric.  I also believe he is flabergasted (trolled in his words) that Festool is so tone deaf that existing customers who purchased expensive tools as part of a system really never wanted metric in the first place when they bought their tools and they really don't want metric now.

Even if that's not what he thinks, it is what several other's have stated and it's exactly what I think.  We are expressing our opinion.  You may ignore that opinion.  But I will make sure that you correctly understand what that opinion is rather than assuming we have some other opinion to be ignored.

Offline Eoj

  • Posts: 16
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #212 on: June 23, 2016, 06:07 PM »
@TylerC  , The Kapex UG extensions are currently sold with metric scale . Will we see a change over to imperial ?

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 587
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #213 on: June 23, 2016, 06:28 PM »
Im not going to quote it because it's s long post but hurricane whisperer just nailed exactly what I meant by my post to a letter. It's just wrong that you are forcing a change to metric on us and them have the balls to offer to switch tools over to imperial for a fee.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #214 on: June 23, 2016, 06:43 PM »
Lets make sure we are focusing on the topic and not getting into arguments with each other.

Seth

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #215 on: June 23, 2016, 07:04 PM »
Since Tyler supplied photos we now know Festool has dumbed down the tools for the American market. Instead of mm increments (~1/25") new tool buyers will only get 1/16" increments.

So changing a sticker from metric to imperial is "dumbing down"?

What if the sticker had both units?

I have tools with both.  Are they dumbed down for Americans?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 07:07 PM by Ajax »
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #216 on: June 23, 2016, 07:06 PM »
Some of you have asked about what increments and markings will be on the scales. I thought it might be easier to show than to tell. Here images of some of the new scales. Hopefully this will answer some questions. (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

Very nice.  I might now consider a Festool router.  Adding the imperial scale makes it even more attractive for me.
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4726
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #217 on: June 23, 2016, 07:19 PM »
Ajax, the saw depth adjusts in mm and will continue to do so after the metric scale is replaced with 1/16" markings. That is just wrong.

The solution you suggest does sound good to me. I have added marks for standard material thicknesses to my saws so if Festool changed the saws to such a dual scale I wouldn't complain.

Some of the tools don't have enough room to legibly host dual scales. For those Festool should supply both scales and instructions on how to switch.

The scale on the router is so relative (depends on the bit and how it is inserted into the collet) so the scale could be attached in such a way that it is easy to remove and replace.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #218 on: June 23, 2016, 07:23 PM »
Yes, dual scales would be ideal where possible, kinda like my trucks spedo.
+1

Offline Mismarked

  • Posts: 139
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #219 on: June 23, 2016, 07:37 PM »
  I for some reason am more comfortable with depth adjustments in Imperial, but after having used Festool products for a while, I now prefer length measurements in millimeters for accuracy even though I still think better (without a calculator) in inches.
   I might never have purchased my first Festool (TS 55) if the dealer hadn’t told me I could easily change it to Imperial with a sticker, as I had never used metric before.  Before the first use, I put the Imperial sticker on it.
   I later bought the parallel guides, the LR32, and a few sets of the AZ drawers, which have plans in metric and precise holes specified in millimeters.  My first projects were homemade Sysports and some wall cabinets, and as a result I started using metric when drawing stuff in Sketchup, so all of these components worked better as a system.
   Even then, I never removed the Imperial sticker from the TS 55.  It is easier for me to do a rough depth estimate with the Imperial sticker and fine tune it by sight.
   My guess is that if a beginning woodworker in the US sees a Festool TS for the first time and it has Imperial measurements, he/she would be more inclined to give it a close look.  If it can be changed to metric in less than a minute with a sticker, that seems like a fairly minor issue.
   I have the OF 1400 and would probably prefer depth adjustments in Imperial, but metric has worked just fine to date.
   As for the planer, I probably wouldn’t get the HL 850, but my Dewalt planer has Imperial thickness measurements.  Would not want to change that to metric even if I could.
   On the parallel guides, though, it does seem surprising not to continue to offer metric as an option, or at least let the NA dealers decide whether to stock both.  If as a new woodworker I decided to make my first project a couple of shop cabinets fitted with AZ drawers, it would be extremely confusing to download Festool’s plans with cabinet dimensions in metric, drawer slides with holes spaced in millimeters and holes spaced in 32 millimeters, and then pull out the parallel guides with Imperial measurements.  I guess you could purchase a metric set from overseas and not really care about a warranty on that particular product, but what a pain, and maybe no 30 day return policy.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 930
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #220 on: June 23, 2016, 08:08 PM »
Ajax, the saw depth adjusts in mm and will continue to do so after the metric scale is replaced with 1/16" markings. That is just wrong.

The solution you suggest does sound good to me. I have added marks for standard material thicknesses to my saws so if Festool changed the saws to such a dual scale I wouldn't complain.

Some of the tools don't have enough room to legibly host dual scales. For those Festool should supply both scales and instructions on how to switch.

The scale on the router is so relative (depends on the bit and how it is inserted into the collet) so the scale could be attached in such a way that it is easy to remove and replace.

Did not think about the indents not lining up, which is probably why the TS switch is described as being more difficult. For through cuts being a little 1/16" (or even 1/8") makes no difference. There probably are uses that require an exact depth.

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #221 on: June 23, 2016, 08:47 PM »
Since Tyler supplied photos we now know Festool has dumbed down the tools for the American market. Instead of mm increments (~1/25") new tool buyers will only get 1/16" increments.

So changing a sticker from metric to imperial is "dumbing down"?

What if the sticker had both units?

I have tools with both.  Are they dumbed down for Americans?

Metric Festool routers are marked in 1 mm increments, then the micrometers are marked in 1/10 of a mm increment.  Imperial marked Festools will be marked in 1/16" increments (.063" vs .039" for a 1 mm increment) and the micrometers will still be marked in 1/10 mm increment since the screw pitch is the same.  So, you won't have a real idea of where you are in a consistent measurement system.  I consider this dumbing down.

My Woodpecker lift has 32 TPI lifting lead screw.  It is calibrated in with marks in parts of an inch and in thousandth.  One full revolution is a 1/32".  I can set zero, then dial in a depth and nail it.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 08:50 PM by Hurricane Whisperer »

Offline shaun.mcc

  • Posts: 100
  • DIY, Chronic Tool Addict.
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #222 on: June 23, 2016, 09:09 PM »
I agree with hurricane...and I'm still not convinced nor am I happy.

See this post a few years ago from another forum...the last post is poignant.

http://www.talkfestool.com/vb/miscellaneous/1553-has-festool-caused-you-switch-metric.html

We customers are passionate about these tools and therefore we are speaking up before a mistake is made that is more difficult to undo or alter...we do pay a premium and I would expect festool to take care of their customers demand. I get not wanting two sets of inventory...perhaps figure a better way or forget this nonsense. My opinion is that this really dumbs the tools down that were designed for mm. Surely the Germans don't like this.
CT 36 HEPA • ETS 125  • TS 55 REQ • RO150 • LR32 • Kapex KS120 • UG Cart and EXT  • Parallel Guide & Extensions • Domino XL DF 700 Set • OF1400 EQ Plunge Router • MFT/3 Table

Offline robertgreen94

  • Posts: 24
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #223 on: June 23, 2016, 09:11 PM »
Ok Tyler, here is a question.  I buy a router, currently in metric.   It breaks, and is required to be sent back for repair.   One of the repair items is the scale.  Will be fixed with a metric scale, or converted to metric?
Also thank you for what you are doing, glad it's you and not me :)
If the uk gets out of Europe, do you plan to offer imperial there also?

Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 738
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #224 on: June 23, 2016, 11:01 PM »
Wow.  Get sidetracked on other things for a day or two and look what happens to the fog.

Personally, I am stodgy and work in inches.  When stick on imperial scales were offered on eBay for a few tools I happily bought them.  That being said I understand that some have made the conversion and this is an issue for them.  I would add my vote to those that have suggested dual imperial/metric scales.

Having lived through the new coke debacle one of the issues was that it was a revolutionary change.  People, for the most part, are set in their ways.  While Coke's marketing studies told them that people liked the taste of new coke better the change went against their loyal customer base.  An evolutionary approach of offering new coke under another name wouldn't have created backlash and new coke might have taken over "coke classic" in the long term. 

Dual scales is the evolutionary approach. 

My $.02

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7211
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #225 on: June 23, 2016, 11:03 PM »
I fully understand that Festool has done their marketing research and they have determined that a lot of chips are being left on the table because they don't offer imperial scales on some of their tools. This point was shared with me several months ago while talking with a Festool employee. However my response to him was "Does Corporate really think that a simple imperial scale on a TS will convince the outliers that spend $100-$150 for a circ saw to cough up $660-$780 for a saw with an imperial scale? Especially a $700 saw (average) that still is adjusted in increments of a millimeter. I think that's the major disconnect in this conversation.

I think it behooves Festool to re-circle the wagons and ask these many requesters what their position would be if an imperial scale was added to the tool while the adjustment mechanism remained in millimeters. If these potential purchasers are so dependent on an imperial scale...they are also probably that dependent on an imperial adjustment method, otherwise they would be willing to adapt.
 

Offline erock

  • Posts: 1254
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #226 on: June 23, 2016, 11:38 PM »

If Festool Germany knew that North America primarily used imperial measurements, then why didn't they use imperial scales from the beginning of introducing Festool to the North American market?    All this junk could have been avoided years ago.

I'm not happy with this move or a couple of Festool USA pervious decisions.    Like others, I've  changed the way I measured my projects when I started using the Festool system.  I've invested a good amount of money in woodpecker and other  tools so I could measure in millimeters.   I've thought about adding an OF1010 or OF2200 to my line up.  I'm not going to fall for the pressure to buy a tool just so I have  a millimeter scale.  My OF1400 and TS55 are out of warranty.  If they should fail on me, I'm taking a good long look at other tool manufactures.     Changing the scale to imperial to potentially sell a few more tools to new customers while forgetting about the system you have in place just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

So you sell a new TS55 with the imperial scale to a new Festool customer.  He likes the saw.  Wants to buy a Domino, which will have a millimeter scale....he now has to work with both measurements or is forced to convert his measurements or wing it.    I'm sure that will lead to some interesting future FOG threads.   

Seneca has provided guys with imperial gauges for the Domino.  Someone has printed imperial scales for the routers and track saw.  Was this move really necessary?    Really?   

Eric

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 280
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #227 on: June 23, 2016, 11:58 PM »
Question/Suggestion for Tyler:

All the equipment noted as being available in Imperial bear a suffix: "IMP" with the exception of:

495717   201182      Parallel Side Fence
495718   201183      Parallel Guide Extension

These items do not have moving machine parts;, they have only scales:

The LR32 system is not being changed. The Parallel Side Fence and the Parallel Guide Extension is mostly used in the field with the LR32 system. Therefore, during your busy schedule in Germany, it seems to me that you could make an appeal to practical Yankee logic and coax the company to offer:

495717   201182      Parallel Side Fence-IMP
495718   201183      Parallel Guide Extension-IMP

495718   201183      Parallel Side Fence-MET
495719   201184      Parallel Guide Extension-MET

While you are at it, you might suggest they offer the same 10% discount as they do on dust-systems on buying the LR32 system and the Fence and Guide extension as one unit. Sales tracking is likely to show these being bought together.

Second Question:

Are the adjustments in 1mm increments being maintained as you described? The math escapes me.

Third Question

Discuss fee and shipping costs for company conversion of existing equipment. Who pays for return shipping and what are the fees and how long will a conversion take? Where will it be done?

Fourth Question:

Imperial drill bits and Imperial router bits?

Thanks,

Have a nice trip. Torches and pitchforks likely await your return from Dr. Festool's castle....
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 12:31 AM by clark_fork »
Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #228 on: June 24, 2016, 12:30 AM »
Well ... Here you go ... When someone in the US as pro Festool as @erock voices a negative Festool NA should really take a big deep breath and re-examine their thinking. Eric's pro Festool videos have driven up Festool sales around the world and now he's questioning buying more Festool tools.

Congratulations on a major screw up Festool, hope you have the intelligence to admit your mistakes and fix it. Sticking your head in the sand and carrying on down this path will not be very clever.

Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 572
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #229 on: June 24, 2016, 12:46 AM »
Wow, lots of emotion in this one.
I also have adopted the metric system ,and so far so good.

 I think the move is not a great one ,but I also don't have think festool is stupid.
 My only concern is the router adjustments , in my small understanding of metric ,
the "new" router will have less fine adjustment .

Good luck Festool.
It certainly won't keep me from new tools , but it is a strang move.
Most folks seem to be against it , perhaps they will listen.
Charlie

Offline richk

  • Posts: 52
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #230 on: June 24, 2016, 12:54 AM »
+1 to erock's comments. My sentiments exactly.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2745
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #231 on: June 24, 2016, 01:27 AM »
@TylerC

The solution out of this mess for Festool USA  is -

. Leave all current NA products Metric.
. When the HK55 and 85 reach NA release them in both Metric and Imperial.

This will provide the framers and carpenters with the Festool Imperial/Metric products they need and want, and provide the finish carpenters, cabinet and furniture makers and experienced hobbiests with their Metric tools. Tools which, if this Thread is any guide, they apparently want now and in the future.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:32 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
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Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #232 on: June 24, 2016, 01:38 AM »
Funny thing is to me that Festool NA were in a perfect situation to drive adoption of the Metric system and use the pitch as another driver for selling their tools. I'd be very curious about recent senior Festool roles changes ...  [eek]

Offline Runhard

  • Posts: 814
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #233 on: June 24, 2016, 01:40 AM »
What is this world coming to?  [bite tongue]

This seems very odd to me and I agree with most of the negative post about this change, not that my opinion matters to Festool. I doubt that by adding an imperial scale to a $700 metric tracksaw is going to generate a huge jump in sales.

This new decision along with the annual price increases have really changed my perception of Festool. At first I thought that I was buying into a system of high quality tools that should last for many years as a want-to-be hobbyist, but I'm not too sure anymore.

I also don't understand how it would be too expensive to offer both metric and imperial. They obviously already make and import the metric tools and they are planning on importing new imperial tools, so how would a shipment of 100 metric and 100 imperial tracksaws cost more to import and sell than 200 imperial tracksaws?

If anything I think that offering some tools metric only and others imperial only would cause confusion and frustration. I'm glad that I have already purchased more tools than I probably would ever need. I feel sorry for those just getting started with their Festool collection and will now have to buy imperial tools if they decide to continue investing in the "system".

At the end of the day these are just tools and there are plenty of options when looking to purchase a woodworking tool.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 09:16 AM by Runhard »
Daniel

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #234 on: June 24, 2016, 02:08 AM »
High drama thread of the year!

  [crying]
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #235 on: June 24, 2016, 03:47 AM »
Closing this thread I don't think is necessary, but if questions come up, I think we should give @TylerC the opportunity and time to get the answers, not speculate.  I just want to say that Tyler is getting slammed for doing his job and presenting announcements to this group.  Tyler in my opinion you are doing a good job, keep it up.

So the general rule of thumb was to add 5 or 6 mm to compensate for the rail, what is the new recommendation?  5 mm is equal to .19 inches.

It is 6-mm (1/4), and the Bosch is 5-mm.

If they offered the saw with the ability to fit on the Bosch rail, it would be an improvement (IMO).

Offline FishyD

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #236 on: June 24, 2016, 05:07 AM »
As a recent adopter of the Festool system (just drills and jigsaw for now), this change seems completely out of line with what seems to me to be a pillar of the Festool system: consistency. To summarize (based on current information): only some of the lineup will offer imperial scales and those that do will actually only be half imperial because detents and thread pitches of micro-adjustments and presets will still be in mm which at 1/25" doesn't line up with the imperial system. As an engineer who works to establish standards with companies outside the U.S., I am comfortable working with either system but pick one! When you think about it, these new imperial tools are a perfect analogy for the status of the U.S.'s defacto unit system: a completely disjointed mess that is far less effective than either of the unit systems by themselves.

I have been saving up for a big Festool purchase to include the TS55, CT-36 and OF-1400 to jump feet first into the entire system. I guess I'll have to either purchase them now (unlikely) or perhaps not at all. I will not have one of the most expensive saws on the market that has two unit systems on the same adjustment, while at the same time partially justifying my purchase because of the consistency and simplicity this system offers. I hope either good news comes back that Festool has fully committed to Imperial in NA or that metric tools will still be available; for those of use that prefer metric or think having a combination imperial and metric on the same tool and across the line in absolutely insane from an consistency standpoint.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 10:29 AM by FishyD »

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #237 on: June 24, 2016, 09:23 AM »
In the vein of purchase decision making in light of the change. I had planned on purchasing a Carvex kit and a OF1010 in August.
I had also planned on finally get a Kapex and the UG cart in January.
The Festool Blog mentioned that the UG measurements will switch to imperial. I would not like that.
I am 45 minutes from a dealer, can anyone tell me if the UG markings are easily replaceable? I never took the time to notice.
If not I will probably forgo the Carvex and get the UG extensions only, sans cart, getting the cart with the Kapex in January.
Any information would be appreciated.

I concur with erock. I made a $4000 initial purchase about 4 years ago, and never looked back. I am an advanced DYIer, as a former remodeling contractor, and moderately skilled furniture maker. Made the switch to metric and am glad I did.
Thanks in advance for the information on the UG markings.
M__

Offline Runhard

  • Posts: 814
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #238 on: June 24, 2016, 09:50 AM »
In the vein of purchase decision making in light of the change. I had planned on purchasing a Carvex kit and a OF1010 in August.
I had also planned on finally get a Kapex and the UG cart in January.
The Festool Blog mentioned that the UG measurements will switch to imperial. I would not like that.
I am 45 minutes from a dealer, can anyone tell me if the UG markings are easily replaceable? I never took the time to notice.
If not I will probably forgo the Carvex and get the UG extensions only, sans cart, getting the cart with the Kapex in January.
Any information would be appreciated.

I concur with erock. I made a $4000 initial purchase about 4 years ago, and never looked back. I am an advanced DYIer, as a former remodeling contractor, and moderately skilled furniture maker. Made the switch to metric and am glad I did.
Thanks in advance for the information on the UG markings.
M__

246585-0

My scale doesn't seem to be able to be removed easily but what you could do is add a scale to the adjacent edge of the profile. I'm pretty sure that I've seen a picture on here of someone doing that.

Daniel

Offline Rustys

  • Posts: 39
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #239 on: June 24, 2016, 10:25 AM »
As a recent adopter of the Festool system (just drills and jigsaw for now), this change seems completely out of line with what seems to me to be a pillar of the Festool system: consistency. To summarize (based on current information): only some of the lineup will offer imperial scales and those that do will actually only be half imperial because detents and thread pitches of micro-adjustments and presets will still be in mm which at 1/25" doesn't line up with the imperial base 12 system. As an engineer who works to establish standards with companies outside the U.S., I am comfortable working with either system but pick one! When you think about it, these new imperial tools are a perfect analogy for the status of the U.S.'s defacto unit system: a completely disjointed mess that is far less effective than either of the unit systems by themselves.

I have been saving up for a big Festool purchase to include the TS55, CT-36 and OF-1400 to jump feet first into the entire system. I guess I'll have to either purchase them now (unlikely) or perhaps not at all. I will not have one of the most expensive saws on the market that has two unit systems on the same adjustment, while at the same time partially justifying my purchase because of the consistency and simplicity this system offers. I hope either good news comes back that Festool has fully committed to Imperial in NA or that metric tools will still be available; for those of use that prefer metric or think having a combination imperial and metric on the same tool and across the line in absolutely insane from an consistency standpoint.

I agree, I just made my initial purchase and planned on jumping into Metric with more purchases. Now I'm hesitant and may just purchase another brand. Metric is much better and I like how everything in Festool line integrates. Now it will be a mess with some being imperial and some metric. I would like the ability to choose. Just one input from a new customer that may not stay. Luckily I'm still in my 30 days.

Russ

Offline Throwback7r

  • Posts: 294
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #240 on: June 24, 2016, 10:50 AM »
I am with the guy that asked about service? Also, I work with my festools every day so I use metric every day.  With that being said ,creating a system that allows you to work smarter and more efficiently, does not really work well when some your tools are Metric and one or two of them are imperial. Since you will be offering to convert metric tools to imperial will you offer to change the imperial tools to metric, and if not why not? Please help me understand how this will create a system that allows you to work smarter and more efficiently if we have to switch between 2 measuring systems?

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Offline QuailRider43

  • Posts: 84
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #241 on: June 24, 2016, 01:12 PM »
Jebus H. Tap-dancing Christo!  [eek]  Canadian here.  I've invested thousands in Festool, and will likely spend thousands more in the future... and I will NOT purchase an imperial-only Festool product.  EVER!  Imperial is a horrible throw-back that I've happily abandoned wherever possible.  I understand the desire to crack the US market, but please give your users a choice.  Just include a dual scale, or a swap-able imperial scale or dial as an option.  How hard can it be to allow both units?  If you really want to crack the US market, how about just lowering your prices and improving availability?   [mad]

Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 483
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #242 on: June 24, 2016, 01:14 PM »
If only the sticker is changing, it should be easy and cost effective to offer both imperial and metric.  That is something a premium tool manufacturer would do.
Each dealer could order whatever he felt that he could sell.

@TylerC I agree with this.  Please consider.
Vijay Kumar

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 9196
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #243 on: June 24, 2016, 01:26 PM »
Just a note ...... it looks from the pictures Tyler posted that we are not really talking about a sticker, at least for the saws. It looks to me like the scales are printed on the tool plastic.

Seth

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #244 on: June 24, 2016, 01:51 PM »
Just a note ...... it looks from the pictures Tyler posted that we are not really talking about a sticker, at least for the saws. It looks to me like the scales are printed on the tool plastic.

Seth

But still a very cheap and interchangeable part, nonetheless?

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #245 on: June 24, 2016, 02:21 PM »

To be honest, I knew that there would be some negative reactions on the FOG. You all are our most passionate and long-time customers, and you're more likely to be committed to metric than other craftsmen. I completely understand that some of you aren't happy about this, and you're entitled to that.

Perhaps this was a worse reaction than you anticipated? I don't see many happy folks here at all. I haven't seen the positive reactions in the wider industry, but I wonder do they know that this is a change of labeling only and things like the track saw depth clicks are still metric along with other tools that won't be changing resulting in a necesary metric/imperial hodgepodge.

I don't mind criticism. It makes Festool better. I'd just ask that you give us the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean that you have to like this decision, but please appreciate that we're trying -- sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing, sometimes TBD -- to do what's in the best interest of a wide variety of people (current customers, new/potential customers, dealers, and ourselves to name a few). It's a tricky balancing act, and I'm sure that you can relate to that in your own work or personal lives. This decision was made because SO many people over the years have asked us to do so. We can't please everyone.

How about this for a plan:
If you have a specific question, please ask by the end of tomorrow (Friday). If it's a question that you've already asked that hasn't been (thoroughly) answered, feel free to ask again. I'll be traveling all next week with several other people involved in this decision and transition. During the trip, I'll try to get as many answers and clarifications that I can.

We'll be traveling to Germany, so please be patient if I'm slow to post answers. Due to the combination of jetlag and a jam-packed itinerary, I can almost guarantee that I won't be on the FOG much.

We don't necessarily need to shut this thread down after tomorrow night, but let's try to generally wrap it up then -- at least until I return with your answers. Sound fair?

I doubt my questions will be answered substantively but here goes:

-Why didn't Festool pursue a dual scale strategy where ever possible?
-If no dual scales are offered, what actually makes it so insurmountable to offer both the metric and imperial versions for sale?

'It's just too hard' isn't a substantive answer. Places like Woodpecker do it all the time.
+1

Offline Hunter

  • Posts: 27
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #246 on: June 24, 2016, 02:51 PM »
In the hopes that this decision can still be changed: I think this is a short sighted mistake.

Objectively, Metric is simply a better system.  A system of measurement where all units are divisible by 10 is simply more rational and less error prone.  The rest of the world didn't switch to metric over time because it was fun, it switched because it's better. Even in the US, precision and scientific fields have moved or been moving to metric for a while now.  I know there are plenty who either legitimately haven't been touched by this trend or have managed to ignore it, but the trend is there.  Every year more stuff is done in metric, not less.

Personally, I was raised using the imperial system.  Good old feet and inches... But my woodworking has improved since/because I switched.  It's so much easier to operate in mm.  Quick, what's half of 53" 7/32.... Heck the fraction part alone is annoying and 53.21875 would be easier to work with. But I can divide 1352mm in half without even using fingers (or toes).  Even when people give me initial measurements in inches, I just convert and round to the nearest even millimeter (and I do mean "even", as in "ends with an even number").  That works great, and the slight loss in initial measurement accuracy never matters because people who give imperial measurements never expect better than 1/8" accuracy anyhow. Heck, even my sheet goods in the US are normally metric despite the labeling... 3/4" ply never measures exactly 3/4" but for giggles check it with a metric tape and you'll see why (19mm).

Please keep Festool precise, uniformly standard, and metric.  Please keep supplying, or being willing to supply, the imperial overlay stickers for people who want it.

I simply will not buy another woodworking tool that is imperial.  I purposely chose every tape, stick, rule, and square in metric and will not go back. If Festool doesn't support this here in NA then I will possibly import, but more likely will find another brand that will. I do love my Festools, and am so very glad that I already have most of the tools mentioned, otherwise I would right now be contemplating how to move immediately away from Festool. What I would not do is buy an imperial Festool, so if you want to cater to me or anyone like me then you should expand the current TS55REQ system (optional labels) to the other tools and not force a backwards step on people who don't want it.

Hopeful regards,
  Hunter
TS-55R, D-500, OF-1400, LR-32, CSX, MFT/3, CT-36, 3000 rail

Offline epicxt

  • Posts: 427
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #247 on: June 24, 2016, 03:00 PM »
Count me as another person in opposition to this move by Festool. Being in the US basically meant that to use the tools offered by Festool effectively one had to embrace the metric system in our work. I'm disappointed that Festool has taken this stance to not offer continued availability of certain tools in metric, and the ones that are being changed to Imperial are actually a mish-mash of the two systems, or "Imperi-metric". ;)
I support their desire to make offerings that can have a broader market appeal in the US, but am dead set against doing that by abandoning the users that established their foothold here.
Personally, I think that the better step is to offer both, as has been stated before, and also put more effort into making the tools that we need available here. Also, expanding Imperial sized router accessories or importing more metric router bits would go a long way. I do a lot of mortising using the mfs system and am often frustrated by the lack of metric spiral bits or imperial copy rings for the 1400. I know that the copy rings are offered in Imperial sizing for the 2200, but can't seem to locate them for the 1400.

Anyway, hats off to you, @TylerC for weathering the storm. It seems a lot of this uproar could have been avoided by polling the user base before moving ahead with such a broad policy.
n = number of Festools I've got.  (n + 1) = Festools I want

Offline Master Carpenter

  • Posts: 110
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #248 on: June 24, 2016, 03:38 PM »
I've only scanned half of this thread so I apologize if this is off.

Which scale used doesn't matter much to me because I can work in both equally well. It's not that hard and don't see it as a big deal. I can understand wanting to keep all tools on the same system thou, when I build cabinets its metric day and the tape I use only has metric on it, the rest of the time I work in imperial.

 What I want for scales on my tools is a digital readout like my calipers. If festool is as great as there marketing tells us, I think that level of precision is missing. I don't use calipers all the time, but when precision matters, it's the best way.  I'd be able to quickly measure my material and set my tool to exactly what I want. And most calipers have a button to go from metric to imperial fractions to imperial decimal.

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2816
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #249 on: June 24, 2016, 05:11 PM »
@1951CorrectCraft - I was in the store yesterday looking at the tools. The UG cart has stick on metal tape.  You could pull it off, use some solvent to remove the adhesive and replace it with a Starrett stick-on tape cut at the right location on the scale.  Starrett offers it in both left and right reading versions, in Imperial and in combination Imperial and metric.   

I think the same tape might work on the parallel guides.

It's under $10 for each side.  Seems like Festool and Starrett should be talking. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:13 PM by neilc »

Offline Keifer

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #250 on: June 24, 2016, 08:02 PM »
So, after this change to Imperial fails to generate substantial additional sales in NA, how long will it be until I can purchase my Metric tools again?

Offline JimD

  • Posts: 442
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #251 on: June 24, 2016, 08:55 PM »
I realize I am in the minority on this forum but I prefer Imperial measurements and it was one of the reasons I bought a DeWalt track saw and not a Festool (price was also a significant factor).  If I have a choice, and we generally do, I do not buy metric.  Not because I can't work with it but because I don't want to.  I've been making sawdust for over 40 years and I do not want to change.  There are more than a few people like me in North America.

But I would have no issue with a saw coming with both scales, and wouldn't even mind swapping to my preferred imperial scale.  I think a stick on scale is cheesy and I wonder about accuracy and longevity.  But a real scale I could install would be just fine.  I think putting both scales in the box would be smarter for Festool.  It seems like their prices would support the extra part. 

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 479
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #252 on: June 24, 2016, 09:05 PM »
The idea of the metric scales being a bigger impediment to sales than the price reminds me of the joke about someone thinking that scented toilet paper would be the answer to bathroom odors.

Actually I am sure that Festool will probably have many more additional customers than customers lost. I want an HKC and I prefer to use batteries I already have as spares. I do not think that depth setting will be as important in cut off uses. Setting the depth well past the board thickness is easy to do in imperial or metric.

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #253 on: June 24, 2016, 09:37 PM »
I realize I am in the minority on this forum but I prefer Imperial measurements and it was one of the reasons I bought a DeWalt track saw and not a Festool (price was also a significant factor).  If I have a choice, and we generally do, I do not buy metric.  Not because I can't work with it but because I don't want to.  I've been making sawdust for over 40 years and I do not want to change.  There are more than a few people like me in North America.

But I would have no issue with a saw coming with both scales, and wouldn't even mind swapping to my preferred imperial scale.  I think a stick on scale is cheesy and I wonder about accuracy and longevity.  But a real scale I could install would be just fine.  I think putting both scales in the box would be smarter for Festool.  It seems like their prices would support the extra part.

I'm with you.  I do everything in imperial.  I could do metric but I choose not to.
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline Mike B

  • Posts: 73
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #254 on: June 24, 2016, 09:46 PM »
The parallels between this move by Festool USA and the Brexit situation are interesting; Both could be seen as capitulation to simplistic/nationalistic desires rather than continuing the pursuit of integrated excellence (in some way).

Sad to see Festool USA abandoning those brave metric journeymen who made Festool USA what it is...

Personally, the solution of offering to convert tools (for more profit) to imperial tools is so alien to me, it feels like offering to send in a tool to have it broken. Which it kinda is if you believe in the Festool system. ;-)

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 615
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #255 on: June 25, 2016, 03:22 AM »
@1951CorrectCraft - I was in the store yesterday looking at the tools. The UG cart has stick on metal tape.  You could pull it off, use some solvent to remove the adhesive and replace it with a Starrett stick-on tape cut at the right location on the scale.  Starrett offers it in both left and right reading versions, in Imperial and in combination Imperial and metric.   

I think the same tape might work on the parallel guides.

It's under $10 for each side.  Seems like Festool and Starrett should be talking.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ELMRIZI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&p;smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER;sc=1&

https://www.amazon.com/Starrett-SM412WMERL-Adhesive-Graduation-Interval/dp/B00ELMR2OK/ref=pd_sim_328_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=513hKER5XzL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&psc=1&refRID=RMVJT4RSD1C85K1Q3QCB
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 03:27 AM by McNally Family »
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #256 on: June 25, 2016, 03:33 AM »
Well the European dress sizes are also different from the US. If you get a chance to hug someone in an Eu size 8 you just about slap yourself on the back, whereas a US size 8 is says "8" but it is different.

I am not sure it applies 100%, to woodworking tools... but most fellas seem to do fine with either, once they understand the system. ;)

Offline SoonerFan

  • Posts: 451
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #257 on: June 25, 2016, 09:01 AM »
This thread has mentioned the New Coke analogy a couple of times.  I for for one hope Festool Leadership read that case study in business school and like Coke reverses a decision which angered the faithful.

Imagine the joy among the loyal FOG users if Festool said:

1.  We heard you loud and clear --- metric will continue to be an option in NA
2.  We are sorry and did not realize the move would solicit this much concern
3.  In additional to all current tools being available in metric we will begin providing NA access to all tools currently available in the UK

I can dream can't I?  Seriously even If I had to special order and wait longer so Festool USA does not have to inventory both tools that would be fine with me.  Like many others I now have lots invested in metric tools, tape measures, rules and squares.  My forthcoming Incra table is also going to be metric.  With the exception of a TS75 which I want cannot justify at this time I will have what I need.  However when something new and game changing like the Domino comes along I am sure I will want metric with the warranty.

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 196
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #258 on: June 25, 2016, 09:11 AM »
I've got a pretty good idea instead of wasting there time on this leave the tools the way they are and get of there ass and figure out what's going on with all the burned up kapex's.

Offline slalom

  • Posts: 37
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #259 on: June 25, 2016, 09:25 AM »
Interesting thread- I am sorry to hear about the change as the movement to SI makes sense. At least in Canada where metric is a legal measure the continuation of two systems is an unnecessary expense. As some have said, many products (plywood) are imperial in all dimensions except the most important - thickness. We really have messed this up. Seriously, my car tires are metric in width but the wheels are imperial.  This is almost as crazy as Brexit.

Speaking of which following Brexit will England go back to imperial lumber? Perhaps shillings too.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #260 on: June 25, 2016, 09:28 AM »
Lets not make this into a Brexit topic.

Thanks,

Seth

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #261 on: June 25, 2016, 09:31 AM »
Lets not make this into a Brexit topic.

Thanks,

Seth

However "Imperial" came from the origional imperialists...

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7211
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #262 on: June 25, 2016, 09:38 AM »
I am not sure it applies 100%, to woodworking tools...but most fellas seem to do fine with either, once they understand the system. ;)

 [thumbs up]    Funny     [thumbs up]
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 10:35 AM by Cheese »

Offline Steve Rowe

  • Posts: 829
  • Teach them safety when they are young.
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #263 on: June 25, 2016, 10:27 AM »
The outcry either for or against the change is somewhat surprising to me.  I did not buy Festool because of the metric system.  I actually converted to metric long after my first Festool purchases and my change was driven by using the 32mm system for cabinets.  After several years of just using it for cabinets, I switched everything to metric.  Changing these tools to US customary units will not drive away but the dual scale option does make a lot more sense.  It is clear to me that Festool is making this change to have more appeal to the general US market.

This is a bit tongue in cheek but; what's next? - public demand to change the model numbers from TS55 to TS2-3/16 and the TS75 to TS3?


Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #264 on: June 25, 2016, 10:38 AM »
This thread has mentioned the New Coke analogy a couple of times.  I for for one hope Festool Leadership read that case study in business school and like Coke reverses a decision which angered the faithful.

Imagine the joy among the loyal FOG users if Festool said:

1.  We heard you loud and clear --- metric will continue to be an option in NA
2.  We are sorry and did not realize the move would solicit this much concern
3.  In additional to all current tools being available in metric we will begin providing NA access to all tools currently available in the UK

I can dream can't I?  Seriously even If I had to special order and wait longer so Festool USA does not have to inventory both tools that would be fine with me.  Like many others I now have lots invested in metric tools, tape measures, rules and squares.  My forthcoming Incra table is also going to be metric.  With the exception of a TS75 which I want cannot justify at this time I will have what I need.  However when something new and game changing like the Domino comes along I am sure I will want metric with the warranty.

I currently have an incra fence in imperial and recently found out it can be converted to metric.

I will be converting it to metric so it works in compliment to the parallel guides and everything else I'm doing.

Imagine that,  incra and woodpeckers and other USA manufacturers make imperial and metric tools while FESTOOL makes metric tools but won't let us have them because they know we really only wanted imperial scales on metric tools.

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #265 on: June 25, 2016, 11:34 AM »
Lets not make this into a Brexit topic.

Thanks,

Seth

Your right.  It's a Metrainer thread, unless your Festool and then it's a Metrexit thread.

P.S.  In another thread, long long ago, you recommended Jen Brand foam brushes.  I tried them and they were great.  Thanks.  The cheap ones are floppy and come off the handle.  The Jen brand have better quality foam, a better interior support and better attachment to the handle.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 12:15 PM by Hurricane Whisperer »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #266 on: June 25, 2016, 11:53 AM »
Lets not make this into a Brexit topic.

Thanks,

Seth

Your right.  It's a Metrainer thread, unless your Festool and then it's a Metrexit thread.

Metrexit...now that there is funny  [thumbs up]
+1

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3929
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #267 on: June 25, 2016, 07:21 PM »
Methinks someone at Festool has "gone tappy", as my dear, sweet, bald-headed dad used to say (as in "got tapioca for brains").  I, for one, went metric with no regrets, and now Festool has taken a step into the dark ages.  I'm delighted that I already own all the requisite metric Festool goodies, but sympathize with those remaining to conquer the divide. 
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4726
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #268 on: June 25, 2016, 09:11 PM »
Methinks someone at Festool has "gone tappy", as my dear, sweet, bald-headed dad used to say (as in "got tapioca for brains").  I, for one, went metric with no regrets, and now Festool has taken a step into the dark ages.  I'm delighted that I already own all the requisite metric Festool goodies, but sympathize with those remaining to conquer the divide.

It is hard to believe Germans would think it's okay to slap an Imperial scale on a metric tool, so maybe they did go tappy.

I'll just go ahead and apologize for stereotyping Germans.

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 280
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #269 on: June 26, 2016, 12:03 PM »
 I was impressed with Festool's  uphill marketing strategy challenge when I looked over the latest WOOD magazine supplement on shops. There was virtually no evidence of track saws, or MFT items. Festool is for the elite and there is little evidence this will change. I acknowledge the use of Festool on This Old House but this is a rarified level of exposure that is not seeping into the shops of Mr. and Mrs America.

In the latest Wood Magazine, there is an article on sanders. Festool took "Top TooL" honors with the ETS EC 125/3EQ, However, reading left to right the prices tell the story: Craftsman $80, DeWalt $80, Festool=$385,Hitachi $80, Makita, $85, Makita $100.

To paraphrase from the political olden days, it is not the unit of measure.... metric or imperial...

It's the pricing, stupid!

Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2745
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #270 on: June 26, 2016, 06:50 PM »
@clark_fork as have some others, correctly states that the real issue is market penetration and price.

Price is an international issue that Festool just does not get. In Australia where fixed pricing/retail price maintenance is generally illegal, Festool is the ONLY company, yes only company (not just tool company)  to have been granted permission to fix its prices. This caused much angst down here as readers of the 'One for the Aussies' may recall. And we do not enjoy the same level and amount of after sales services and features enjoyed in NA, the UK and Europe.

However, if you in NA wish Festool USA to continue offering its current level of after sales service and generally higher manufacturing standards how much can the price be reduced before there needs to be a reduced after sales service? How far does the price have to fall before German/European manufacture is considerably replaced by more from Asia or South America?

Apart from not proceeding with this decision, Festool should tighten its margins a little. Perhaps an advertising campaign around no price increases next year. And does Festool US have reps actually visiting work sites like some other companies and dealers do. A big truck outside a dealership is well and good, but reps need to get in amongst the wood dust and chips and show how it does not have to be there on site. Park that truck on some new housing estates, or within industrial estates with high concentrations of joinery and kitchen shops.

Advertise and promote Metric tools as a feature, not a problem.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 07:09 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Steve-Rice

  • Posts: 291
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #271 on: June 26, 2016, 07:16 PM »
If I remember correctly, I bought by TS55 REQ about 2 1/2 years ago.  It came with an Imperial sticker which was easily applied over the the metric depth of cut scale.  So effectively, I had the choice of metric or imperial way back then.  Moving to Imperial for the track saws seems like a non-event to me as that option was always there.

Offline petersd

  • Posts: 35
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #272 on: June 27, 2016, 09:04 AM »
Hi, just joined the forum.

I have been deciding what tools to buy as looking to get into woodworking. And a couple friends/coworkers highly recommend Festool.
I have done a fair amount of research and watched a lot of reviews. When I first thought about the tools I was worried about everything being metric. Then i worked on building a fence for the yard and realized how metric was just simpler to work with.

So I was working on a list of metric measuring tools and of course a bunch of the Festool equipment. (was looking at a CT 36, TS 55, parallel guides, 1400 Router, domino 500 to start. Then a couple tables, sanders and the list never ends.)

So I am on the verge of making a rather substantial purchase. Especially with the Canada dollar.
Then I read about the tools changing to imperial measurement. I can see why and can appreciate the change.

But I wish they would still give us the option to order tools and accessories in both metric and imperial.

For everyone who has metric tools and has adjusted to the metric measurement kinda ends in a poor situation that any new tools or accessories they purchase will not be in the same measurement and will cause difficulties.

I am now on the fence weather I should wait till the imperial tools roll out or buy what I think I'll need now and hope there is a future metric option. I would have been very disappointed if I had purchased a bunch of metric tools and then go to add more tools and the measurement system was changed.

Just adding my opinion and thoughts in hope of retaining metric tools in Canada at least.

Thanks
Daryl

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3569
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #273 on: June 27, 2016, 11:00 AM »
Hi, just joined the forum.

I have been deciding what tools to buy as looking to get into woodworking. And a couple friends/coworkers highly recommend Festool.
I have done a fair amount of research and watched a lot of reviews. When I first thought about the tools I was worried about everything being metric. Then i worked on building a fence for the yard and realized how metric was just simpler to work with.

So I was working on a list of metric measuring tools and of course a bunch of the Festool equipment. (was looking at a CT 36, TS 55, parallel guides, 1400 Router, domino 500 to start. Then a couple tables, sanders and the list never ends.)

So I am on the verge of making a rather substantial purchase. Especially with the Canada dollar.
Then I read about the tools changing to imperial measurement. I can see why and can appreciate the change.

But I wish they would still give us the option to order tools and accessories in both metric and imperial.

For everyone who has metric tools and has adjusted to the metric measurement kinda ends in a poor situation that any new tools or accessories they purchase will not be in the same measurement and will cause difficulties.

I am now on the fence weather I should wait till the imperial tools roll out or buy what I think I'll need now and hope there is a future metric option. I would have been very disappointed if I had purchased a bunch of metric tools and then go to add more tools and the measurement system was changed.

Just adding my opinion and thoughts in hope of retaining metric tools in Canada at least.

Thanks
Daryl

I am fairly certain that if Festool does not provide stickers, they would be available from either your favourite retailer, the ekat either in NA, Europe or from a third party accessory provider. I am fairly certain the packaging in Canada will have to be in metric so including a metric sticker shouldn't be that much more of a problem. My understanding is our tools are distributed from Festool US so we will be shipped tools from the US that as of this announcement will be marked in imperial units.
I believe the answer for the end users and for retailers managing currency fluctuations etc. is for Festool Group GmbH & Co. KG to export tools directly from Germany to Canada. This is unlikely to happen as our market is not large enough.
I wonder if this would affect CSA approval, but most tools available here are available in imperial only or metric etc. it's probably not an issue.
At the end of the day for me this decision signals the movement of Festool from an engineering (innovation) driven company to a marketing driven company. Unfortunate, but inevitable. Marketing via research and finance depts (ROI) is now dictating what features products should have. As they grow, this is the curve of most manufacturing companies, and is well documented in several well written business books.
I imagine it will be some time before Festool is managed as a cash cow (finance) and eventual decline in quality but the affects of creative destruction are compressing that time line annually.

Tim

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #274 on: June 27, 2016, 11:34 AM »
Hi, just joined the forum.

I have been deciding what tools to buy as looking to get into woodworking. And a couple friends/coworkers highly recommend Festool.
I have done a fair amount of research and watched a lot of reviews. When I first thought about the tools I was worried about everything being metric. Then i worked on building a fence for the yard and realized how metric was just simpler to work with.

So I was working on a list of metric measuring tools and of course a bunch of the Festool equipment. (was looking at a CT 36, TS 55, parallel guides, 1400 Router, domino 500 to start. Then a couple tables, sanders and the list never ends.)

So I am on the verge of making a rather substantial purchase. Especially with the Canada dollar.
Then I read about the tools changing to imperial measurement. I can see why and can appreciate the change.

But I wish they would still give us the option to order tools and accessories in both metric and imperial.

For everyone who has metric tools and has adjusted to the metric measurement kinda ends in a poor situation that any new tools or accessories they purchase will not be in the same measurement and will cause difficulties.

I am now on the fence weather I should wait till the imperial tools roll out or buy what I think I'll need now and hope there is a future metric option. I would have been very disappointed if I had purchased a bunch of metric tools and then go to add more tools and the measurement system was changed.

Just adding my opinion and thoughts in hope of retaining metric tools in Canada at least.

Thanks
Daryl

Out of those tools, only the saw, the router, and the parallel guides matter as far as the backwards imperial only march.  I would buy the saw and router now.  I would look to one of the aftermarketer's for parallel guides now or at your leasure.  Some of the aftermarketers use Incra products in their guides which are availble in imperial and metric.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
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  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #275 on: June 27, 2016, 11:41 AM »
The ultimate fix ........ no scale at all, and no detents. It's a zen thing  [not worthy]  [smile]

Seth

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #276 on: June 27, 2016, 12:27 PM »
Rarely use the scales anyway. When setting router depth, set it to some actual gauge or thickness. Only reason I use the saw gauge is to make sure I don't cut through my MFT. I've adjusted to the Domino metrics, but just know where to set it for certain jobs. So, the gauges aren't really crucial. Don't even know why they would change or why anyone get upset over the possibility of changing them.
Randy

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2745
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #277 on: June 27, 2016, 05:49 PM »
The ultimate fix ........ no scale at all, and no detents. It's a zen thing  [not worthy]  [smile]

Seth

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values



@SRSemenza   [smile]
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 05:59 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Throwback7r

  • Posts: 294
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #278 on: June 27, 2016, 07:13 PM »
I guess no one will answer questions about this any more.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4726
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #279 on: June 27, 2016, 08:23 PM »
I guess no one will answer questions about this any more.

Tyler is out of town. Read his reply #211 on page 8.

Offline Drich

  • Posts: 198
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #280 on: June 29, 2016, 02:04 PM »
Well time to throw my 2 cents worth in. This is the dumbest thing yet from Festool. It's all about someone's job justification. The need to come up with so new and great idea that will sell more tools. I bought in to this system a little over a year ago because of watching Eric's video on you tube. I have spent major cash on this system including the woodpecker metric tools to convert over and now you say no more. tell you what  Festool you are not the only show in town. I want metric and if I can't get it with out jumping through your hoops my cash is leaving.  I was wanting to give mafell a try this might be a reason to jump ship. Sorry if I hurt someone's feelings but man open your eyes.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3569
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #281 on: June 30, 2016, 10:15 AM »
I guess no one will answer questions about this any more.

Just send a message to Festool via the website.
They will get back to you there.
The answers may not be the ones you want to hear but such is life.
Tim

Offline Flatsawn

  • Posts: 195
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #282 on: July 01, 2016, 08:27 PM »
The ultimate fix ........ no scale at all, and no detents. It's a zen thing  [not worthy]  [smile]

Seth

OH.... like Olivia Newton John so artfully sang "feel your way" [big grin]

If this measurement adjustment is in fact implemented after all of these concerns posted, what chance do you guess a fix is already under way on the Kapex issue?

Mark

Offline GhostFist

  • Posts: 1556
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #283 on: July 01, 2016, 09:01 PM »
While I agree that festool should offer both scales. I'm certain they will see an increase in sales by offering imperial.


Offline Samo

  • Posts: 590
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #284 on: July 01, 2016, 09:25 PM »
While I agree that festool should offer both scales. I'm certain they will see an increase in sales by offering imperial.

This is the bottom line.
It's The FOG!  Just rotate the screen.

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 615
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #285 on: July 02, 2016, 12:17 AM »
While I agree that festool should offer both scales. I'm certain they will see an increase in sales by offering imperial.

An increase due to people rushing to get Metric versions while they are still available.....

Actually, I agree with your theory, which is easily validated by seeing how well the imperial version of the ZOBO bit sets sold, which are difficult to find now, as compared to the readily available metric set.

The fact dealers were offered additional discounts for placing larger orders for the existing metric product, in order to clear the warehouse inventory prior to the Imperial transition, certainly increased sales at the wholesale level.

I would have rather seen them offer existing customers who started their Festool collection in metric, a coupon to purchase metric tools they still needed, rather than providing additional discounts to dealers willing to increase their orders, but not passing on the savings to the customers themselves.

GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline PreferrablyWood

  • Posts: 916
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #286 on: July 02, 2016, 01:37 AM »
I'm Canadian living in Scandinavia, when I grew up the Metric system was being implemented. I Talk to my bro about projects and use metric dimensions, and he wants me to covert it to Imperial, so I guess it's still pretty prevalent also in Canada. I like Imperial too in a way it seems easier to visualise dimensions in a system based on human dimensions . The numbers group together in bunches 3/16, 3/8, 3/4. The Main sport Football, uses yards, the 50 yard dash,,

Being in Scandinavia I have the metric system, but it's fun to work with my old Imperial tape..

I'm sure this is not a bad business idea. Limiting to one or the other reduces the inventory needed, and confusion when ordering. The US market uses imperial and is 10 times greater than the Canadian, so I guess that decides it too..
Vecturo OSC, BHC SDS, RO 150, 850 HL E Planer rustic head standard head angle fence, MFS 400x2, MFS extensions MFS VB 700 x 1 MFS VB 1000 x 2 . CMS GE, sliding fence, VB and 2x VL extension tables, OF 2200, Accessory Set ZS OF 2200 M,36mm 5m antistatik hose, CMS OF+ CMS TS 75 insert modules. SYS-MFT Fixing-Set,  3.5m sleeved hose, Syslite duo, Sys 4 sort 3 x3, Sys Roll, Sys 1 Box x2 , classic Sys 3-Sort 4, classic Sys 3 Sort 6 x2, Sys Cart x3 Systainer 4 x2  as toolbox with selfmade inserts Systainer 5 as toolbox with insert.
Festool 18V HKC 55 Li 5.2 EB Plus FSK 420,FSK 250, Extra blade for the HKC 55 W32.TI 15, CXS 2.6 Ah version, RO 90 DX, PDC 18/4 plus DC UNI FF depth stop chuck,AD 3/8 square socket holder FF chuck, Centrotec Bits; -->Bit holder and bit selection BHS 65 CE TL 24x, ,Bradpoint DB WOOD CE SET ,Zobo (Forstner) D 15-35 CE-Zobo SET ,Masonary/stone bits DB STONE CE Set,Extender BV 150 CE, Countersink QLS D2-8 CE Hook turner HD D18, end centrotec<--.  TS 75 EBQ, PSC 420, OF 1010, RS 300 EQ, CTL Midi, MFT 3, Parf dogs x2pair +Bench dogs x2pair, FS 1080, FS 1900 .  will get Domino DF 700 XL,  CMS insert BS 120 Belt sander.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #287 on: July 02, 2016, 04:19 AM »
I'm Canadian living in Scandinavia, when I grew up the Metric system was being implemented. I Talk to my bro about projects and use metric dimensions, and he wants me to covert it to Imperial, so I guess it's still pretty prevalent also in Canada. I like Imperial too in a way it seems easier to visualise dimensions in a system based on human dimensions . The numbers group together in bunches 3/16, 3/8, 3/4. The Main sport Football, uses yards, the 50 yard dash,,

Being in Scandinavia I have the metric system, but it's fun to work with my old Imperial tape..

I'm sure this is not a bad business idea. Limiting to one or the other reduces the inventory needed, and confusion when ordering. The US market uses imperial and is 10 times greater than the Canadian, so I guess that decides it too..

Thank you for ordering a Festool track saw sir. Would you like that with imperial or metric scales?

Really confusing ... I'd have to engage a solicitor to help me work out such an amazingly complex issue [blink] [big grin]

Festool NA have made a massive blunder and need to fix it before they become a laughing stock. Competitors will get a lot of milage out of this! ... it's probably already being written into their anti Festool marketing material.

Festool in the UK deal with the same tools in 240V and 110V and these are REAL differences, not just a label. The UK seem to cope and it's a much smaller market than the US and it deals with many, many, many more tools in the range. But wait, there's more ... the service department has to deal with these variations too [eek] [eek] [eek]

I can't wait to see the wave of complaints from people new to Festool, complaining that the detents and adjustments on the saws and routers don't work properly [sad] ... and that all of the accessories and the other tools are "incompatible" [embarassed]





Offline PreferrablyWood

  • Posts: 916
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #288 on: July 02, 2016, 04:35 AM »
I'm Canadian living in Scandinavia, when I grew up the Metric system was being implemented. I Talk to my bro about projects and use metric dimensions, and he wants me to covert it to Imperial, so I guess it's still pretty prevalent also in Canada. I like Imperial too in a way it seems easier to visualise dimensions in a system based on human dimensions . The numbers group together in bunches 3/16, 3/8, 3/4. The Main sport Football, uses yards, the 50 yard dash,,

Being in Scandinavia I have the metric system, but it's fun to work with my old Imperial tape..

I'm sure this is not a bad business idea. Limiting to one or the other reduces the inventory needed, and confusion when ordering. The US market uses imperial and is 10 times greater than the Canadian, so I guess that decides it too..

Thank you for ordering a Festool track saw sir. Would you like that with imperial or metric scales?

Really confusing ... I'd have to engage a solicitor to help me work out such an amazingly complex issue [blink] [big grin]

Festool NA have made a massive blunder and need to fix it before they become a laughing stock. Competitors will get a lot of milage out of this! ... it's probably already being written into their anti Festool marketing material.

Festool in the UK deal with the same tools in 240V and 110V and these are REAL differences, not just a label. The UK seem to cope and it's a much smaller market than the US and it deals with many, many, many more tools in the range. But wait, there's more ... the service department has to deal with these variations too [eek] [eek] [eek]

I can't wait to see the wave of complaints from people new to Festool, complaining that the detents and adjustments on the saws and routers don't work properly [sad] ... and that all of the accessories and the other tools are "incompatible" [embarassed]
You would be surprised how dumb the world is getting..
I thought the UK 24i0V and 110V system seems really just plain weird but again it's how things are has some logic to it so yes it exists..I note it and get on with my life..
The complaints about the detents? They are mostly fore angles, not for length in millimeters though it's on the Dominos, so yes for that machine it is a problem.The track saw has the indicator for with and without track saw use, this will surely be adjusted for..

Now they have decided on this switch to imperial in North America, I for one thought to offer an olive branch in what seems to have developed into a storm of complaints and company bashing, which always puts me in a bit of an agro state of mind..So I can come with a counter view almost a gut response..Expect it!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 04:41 AM by PreferrablyWood »
Vecturo OSC, BHC SDS, RO 150, 850 HL E Planer rustic head standard head angle fence, MFS 400x2, MFS extensions MFS VB 700 x 1 MFS VB 1000 x 2 . CMS GE, sliding fence, VB and 2x VL extension tables, OF 2200, Accessory Set ZS OF 2200 M,36mm 5m antistatik hose, CMS OF+ CMS TS 75 insert modules. SYS-MFT Fixing-Set,  3.5m sleeved hose, Syslite duo, Sys 4 sort 3 x3, Sys Roll, Sys 1 Box x2 , classic Sys 3-Sort 4, classic Sys 3 Sort 6 x2, Sys Cart x3 Systainer 4 x2  as toolbox with selfmade inserts Systainer 5 as toolbox with insert.
Festool 18V HKC 55 Li 5.2 EB Plus FSK 420,FSK 250, Extra blade for the HKC 55 W32.TI 15, CXS 2.6 Ah version, RO 90 DX, PDC 18/4 plus DC UNI FF depth stop chuck,AD 3/8 square socket holder FF chuck, Centrotec Bits; -->Bit holder and bit selection BHS 65 CE TL 24x, ,Bradpoint DB WOOD CE SET ,Zobo (Forstner) D 15-35 CE-Zobo SET ,Masonary/stone bits DB STONE CE Set,Extender BV 150 CE, Countersink QLS D2-8 CE Hook turner HD D18, end centrotec<--.  TS 75 EBQ, PSC 420, OF 1010, RS 300 EQ, CTL Midi, MFT 3, Parf dogs x2pair +Bench dogs x2pair, FS 1080, FS 1900 .  will get Domino DF 700 XL,  CMS insert BS 120 Belt sander.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #289 on: July 02, 2016, 04:52 AM »
...
I note it and get on with my life..
The complaints about the detents? They are mostly fore angles, not for length in millimeters though it's on the Dominos..
...

Ia vote for a switch from degrees to radians. Pi/4 [smile]

Offline PreferrablyWood

  • Posts: 916
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #290 on: July 02, 2016, 04:59 AM »
...
I note it and get on with my life..
The complaints about the detents? They are mostly fore angles, not for length in millimeters though it's on the Dominos..
...

Ia vote for a switch from degrees to radians. Pi/4 [smile]

Get out the slide rules
Vecturo OSC, BHC SDS, RO 150, 850 HL E Planer rustic head standard head angle fence, MFS 400x2, MFS extensions MFS VB 700 x 1 MFS VB 1000 x 2 . CMS GE, sliding fence, VB and 2x VL extension tables, OF 2200, Accessory Set ZS OF 2200 M,36mm 5m antistatik hose, CMS OF+ CMS TS 75 insert modules. SYS-MFT Fixing-Set,  3.5m sleeved hose, Syslite duo, Sys 4 sort 3 x3, Sys Roll, Sys 1 Box x2 , classic Sys 3-Sort 4, classic Sys 3 Sort 6 x2, Sys Cart x3 Systainer 4 x2  as toolbox with selfmade inserts Systainer 5 as toolbox with insert.
Festool 18V HKC 55 Li 5.2 EB Plus FSK 420,FSK 250, Extra blade for the HKC 55 W32.TI 15, CXS 2.6 Ah version, RO 90 DX, PDC 18/4 plus DC UNI FF depth stop chuck,AD 3/8 square socket holder FF chuck, Centrotec Bits; -->Bit holder and bit selection BHS 65 CE TL 24x, ,Bradpoint DB WOOD CE SET ,Zobo (Forstner) D 15-35 CE-Zobo SET ,Masonary/stone bits DB STONE CE Set,Extender BV 150 CE, Countersink QLS D2-8 CE Hook turner HD D18, end centrotec<--.  TS 75 EBQ, PSC 420, OF 1010, RS 300 EQ, CTL Midi, MFT 3, Parf dogs x2pair +Bench dogs x2pair, FS 1080, FS 1900 .  will get Domino DF 700 XL,  CMS insert BS 120 Belt sander.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4726
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #291 on: July 02, 2016, 09:05 AM »

The complaints about the detents? They are mostly fore angles, not for length in millimeters though it's on the Dominos, so yes for that machine it is a problem.The track saw has the indicator for with and without track saw use, this will surely be adjusted for..

Now they have decided on this switch to imperial in North America, I for one thought to offer an olive branch in what seems to have developed into a storm of complaints and company bashing, which always puts me in a bit of an agro state of mind..So I can come with a counter view almost a gut response..Expect it!

As a reasonable fellow that is what you would expect but it is not what Festool is doing. They are simply replacing millimeters scales with 1/16" scales. The track saws have depth adjustment racks of 1 mm spaced teeth. Those same teeth will remain but will be misrepresented by 1/16" markings.

That is the worst example. Next is the router. The metric threaded fine depth adjustment screw will remain, but the overall depth scale will be changed from millimeters to 1/16" marks.

This bastardization of well engineered tools in order to cater to narrow minded carpenters is not what we expect from Festool. But, I guess they did their homework...

"No one in this world, so far as I know-and I have searched the record for years, and employed agents to help me-has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people."   HL Mencken

Offline FishyD

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #292 on: July 02, 2016, 09:29 AM »
Exactly! The issue is not the move to imperial (which I am neutral on, even though it does seem a bit backwards), it's the disjointed implementation. Only SOME of the tools will switch and the ones that do will be scale tapes only, nothing mechanical will change. The detents/racks on the track saws and the fine adjustments on the routers will still be in mm. An $800 saw where the pre-sets don't correlate to the scale beneath it...One of the things that really sold me on the saw and router were the fine adjustments (and the correlation of these to actual measurements)

Couldn't agree more Michael, in bringing themselves down to the lowest common denominator Festool has really taken a step backwards into a configuration nightmare. It doesn't make any sense that a company that prides themselves on being a "systems" approach to woodworking tools would bless off on half of the system using a different measurement system while simultaneously breaking the other half with scales that don't match their corresponding mechanical adjustments.

This kind of thing seems completely out of line for a German company in my opinion. I can't help but think some U.S. marketing guy got his way on this one to increase next FY's sales numbers. Who cares about the fact that you have alienated some of your most dedicated customers that switched measurement systems entirely just to better use your tools and created chaos is a fairly harmonious tool system, if sales are up...that is all that matters.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #293 on: July 02, 2016, 09:44 AM »
Most of the angst over this move would be mitigated with dual scales or continuing to also offer the metric counterparts.
+1

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #294 on: July 02, 2016, 09:49 AM »
Well I just checked the cars's speedo and it has two scales. SI (metric) and Imperial.
They had stickers to convert the metric TS55 to Imperial, and I suspect that stickers can comvert them back to Metric.

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 615
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #295 on: July 02, 2016, 10:13 AM »
Most of the angst over this move would be mitigated with dual scales or continuing to also offer the metric counterparts.

I certainly agree with both your points.  Regarding the "metric counterparts", they are still available for now at least, and I'm certain that they will continue to be for a little while anyway (from those dealers that accepted the additional discount to increase their order quantity for the remaining metric versions). 

Not wanting to risk missing the Metric Parallel Guide set, whose scale is utilized to measure length, I have already purchased that.  I am now getting ready to purchase a track saw and router, once I make a final decision on which model will serve me best.

So, in the short term, the solution to this problem is to get them while you can.  Of course, the financial aspect of accelerating Festool purchases, would never come at a good time.  I certainly have made adjustments to purchase what I need, while it is available.   

One way to mitigate the immediate expense is to postpone purchasing any accessories you would have otherwise purchased at the same time.
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline Stoli

  • Posts: 354
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #296 on: July 02, 2016, 10:16 AM »

Ia vote for a switch from degrees to radians. Pi/4 [smile]

Now you've really done it -- we should be arguing how tau is better than pi
DF500; OF1400; ETS125; CXS; installer Kit;  Kapex

Offline Euclid

  • Posts: 216
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #297 on: July 02, 2016, 10:21 AM »
Quote
Ia vote for a switch from degrees to radians. Pi/4 [smile]

What about calibrating in Shaku and Sun for those of us with a passion for Japanese joinery?