Author Topic: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America  (Read 71801 times)

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Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 914
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2016, 12:45 PM »
There are 3 countries not  using the metric system. Liberia, Myanmar and the US.
There are 23 officially recognized countries in NA. All are officially metric but only the US refuse to change even though Federal construction projects are mandated to be done using metric and the Auto industry is in the process of standardizing to metric to remain consistent with their autoplants around the world.

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Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2016, 12:48 PM »
PS - If you're not happy about this, call Festool - 888-337-8600, option 3, fill out this form: http://www.festoolusa.com/contact/ or comment on their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Festool/?fref=nf

The only way they will possibly adjust their direction is by feedback...

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2016, 12:50 PM »
I haven't read all the posts here, so sorry if any of these points have been made...

Sorry, but I am not on the "happy" bandwagon regarding Festool's announcement to ONLY offer their tools in the US as imperial only! This is just going to make it frustrating to add a new "imperial" tool for those of us that have a large investment in their current tools. Imagine having two routers with metric and a new one in imperial. Using an imperial TS55 with metric parallel guides...

If this was a marketing/sales problem for Festool in the US, they should have "added" imperial while retaining metric. Or. like the TS55 REBQ, offer a second scale as a sticker. Sadly, I don't think Festool thought this out!

One last thought - people who buy Festool tools know exactly what they are getting and "buy" into a system. Their tools are different - quality, engineered, precise - and German. Most of us are smart and sophisticated enough to use their tools - if they are trying to "bring" more customers into the fold, using imperial isn't the barrier for new sales, it's cost. But that's a whole other topic...

@RVHernandez it would seem that the current loyal Festool NA customer base is not a major factor in their planning. Obviously speculation on my part, but the points you've made would make anyone in the middle of investing in Festool potential collateral damage of their changes.


Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2016, 01:00 PM »
While adding support for imperial measurements does make some business sense and may increase the customer, removing metric support alienates the existing base.

Exactly, on point!

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2016, 01:01 PM »
So .. what are these "imperial-dominant" countries - outside of North America?

Of course I'm referring to the US and Canada. I phrased it as such because the point isn't that you (and others) don't live in North America; it's that you don't live in countries where imperial is the standard.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 914
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2016, 01:02 PM »
Did you know that all Dewalt tools are developed fully in metric and that 90% of Black & Decker's documentation in metric. Non-metric are for old tools.

Offline JD2720

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2016, 01:04 PM »
I'm so glad I live in Australia.

If this story isn't a joke, Festool US management certainly is a joke.

Then why does it matter to you what products are available for sale in North America.

Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2016, 01:07 PM »
Surely your marketing folks have not concluded that there is 0.00245% increase in sales potential by catering to the US Imperial prejudice?

RMW

No, I think the conclusion was a 0.00254% increase

That would be a 1/400% increase in the US - LOL

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2016, 01:12 PM »
@RVHernandez it would seem that the current loyal Festool NA customer base is not a major factor in their planning. Obviously speculation on my part, but the points you've made would make anyone in the middle of investing in Festool potential collateral damage of their changes.

We're trying to find a balance. If our current customers didn't matter, I wouldn't be responding to this thread. However, growing and reaching new craftsmen matter as well.

The reality is that most of our NA customers already have lots of imperial tools. Even if they prefer metric, imperial is hard to avoid in NA.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2016, 01:13 PM »
As an aerospace engineer working on advanced flight structures in the US I welcome this news.  I use Imperial units every day and I never use metric.  Having my Festools with Imperial scales would be fantastic.

All the complaining from woodworkers about the US not using metric is laughable. 
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline GarryMartin

  • Posts: 1838
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2016, 01:21 PM »
Will this change in any slow the introduction of new tools to NA even further given the additional engineering that it seems is required to change from a default metric design to an Imperial one?

Offline jdm5

  • Posts: 105
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2016, 01:23 PM »
I also think this is a massive mistake. Offering imperial versions, as an option - yes; Removing the metric versions completely - ridiculous.


+10000 - as an American who immediately moved to metric for woodworking, this is a big mistake.  Give us 'more worldly' Americans the choice of staying with the world's measuring system vs forcing an anachronism on us.

Is a barleycorn really the best unit of measure?

Per Wikipedia:

An Anglo-Saxon unit of length was the barleycorn. After 1066, 1 inch was equal to 3 barleycorns, which continued to be its legal definition for several centuries, with the barleycorn being the base unit.[10] One of the earliest such definitions is that of 1324, where the legal definition of the inch was set out in a statute of Edward II of England, defining it as "three grains of barley, dry and round, placed end to end, lengthwise".[10]
Drank the green Kool-Aid...gave up counting long ago.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2016, 01:26 PM »
Will this change in any slow the introduction of new tools to NA even further given the additional engineering that it seems is required to change from a default metric design to an Imperial one?

If there's effort, there's cost .. and you can imagine that cost is not going to be reflected as a price increase to the very market they're trying to exploit.

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #73 on: June 22, 2016, 01:35 PM »
Will this change in any slow the introduction of new tools to NA even further given the additional engineering that it seems is required to change from a default metric design to an Imperial one?

Good question. No, it shouldn't. This adjustment is pretty simple, so it shouldn't release product release timelines.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline JD2720

  • Posts: 1127
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #74 on: June 22, 2016, 01:37 PM »
I have been using Festool for about ten years. I never used metric before I started using Festool. I never complained to Festool about the metric markings, I just worked around scales being metric. Some users made & sold imperial scales for Festool tools.

Festool announces that they are going to make tools, sold in America, with imperial markings to match the preferred measuring system measuring system in this market. So the rest of the world screams that the world is coming to an end because of this change.

This change is not going to make me go out & replace my metric marked tools with imperial versions. I see nothing the says any one will be required to replace their tools because of this change.

Look to me like an opportunity for some to make some extra money. If you believe the demand for metric marked tools will be in high demand, buy up the current stock of metric marked tools & resell them when their value skyrockets.

I still fail to see why the measuring system that is used in the United States matters to the rest of the world. 

   

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2298
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2016, 01:37 PM »
After reading this whole thread during my lunch hour, it seems easy to point out that if this whole affair doesn't work out as Festool intended, they can always go back to what they offered before in Metric scales, or maybe throwing in the odd Imperial scale as a spare sticker when you buy the tool like on the track saw.
 There's nothing dire here, just a marketing change that can always be undone if need be. The tools will probably still come off a retailers shelf or warehouse like they did when only Metric scales were the norm.
 The Dust Collection ability and features of each tool are what draw me to them, not what Scale of measurement they have on them.   [popcorn]
 
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2016, 01:38 PM »
If there's effort, there's cost .. and you can imagine that cost is not going to be reflected as a price increase to the very market they're trying to exploit.

Prices are remaining the same.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 1990
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2016, 01:41 PM »
76 replies in 4:44, or 1/225 seconds, errr.... make that 1 per 3 & 24/32 minutes.

This is fun.  [popcorn]

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2016, 01:44 PM »
Then why does it matter to you what products are available for sale in North America.

@JD2720

If Festool for NA operated completely (design, manufacture, finance) in isolation I wouldn't give a fig. Demands and changes from NA send ripples through an international organisation like, Festool .. and Festool isn't a massive company. Consequently new product development takes longer and products become more expensive. Normally a wider market has the potential to improve a product. We don't see this with Festool from an "outside of NA" perspective. All we see is demands for 110V non metric tools.


Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2016, 01:46 PM »
If there's effort, there's cost .. and you can imagine that cost is not going to be reflected as a price increase to the very market they're trying to exploit.

Prices are remaining the same.

Exactly what I'm saying ...

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2016, 01:51 PM »
If there's effort, there's cost .. and you can imagine that cost is not going to be reflected as a price increase to the very market they're trying to exploit.

Prices are remaining the same.

Exactly what I'm saying ...

Got it. Misread your post. There's minimal cost difference with this change. Shouldn't have much of an impact on price/cost.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline cred

  • Posts: 9
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2016, 01:53 PM »

4. It's interesting that many of the harshest responses have come from people outside of NA. Obviously, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but it will be interesting to see how the majority of craftsmen in imperial-dominant countries respond. The non-FOG response to this so far as been largely positive.

But, I still don't see the need to alienate those of us in NA using Festool produced metric tools in the hopes of attracting more customers with imperial offerings.  You'll be driving your existing customers (who you already know do support Festool) to other manufacturers.

Offline WastedP

  • Posts: 353
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2016, 01:55 PM »
I purchased my TS 55 on the recon sale, and it came with the imperial scale sticker.  I can work either way, but I was looking forward to getting an OF 1400 some day and working straight metric.  Will stick-on scales be available for routers as well?

It will be tough getting used to calling my RO 125 a RO 4.92126.  I am guessing this is going to really mess with the LR 32 set.

Offline SS Teach

  • Posts: 286
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2016, 02:02 PM »
Once I got into Festool I decided to go metric. It is much so much easier. I agree include a conversion sticker with the tools. One came with my TS 55 R. Seems like  very simple solution.
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Offline promark747

  • Posts: 477
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2016, 02:24 PM »
While stickers or dual scales can be helpful, they are not a fully satisfactory solution as the depth adjustment mechanism is made in either metric or imperial...so putting an imperial sticker or a dual scale on a TS55 doesn't magically make the gradations 1/32".

Offline promark747

  • Posts: 477
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #85 on: June 22, 2016, 02:35 PM »
Maybe the MFS will be reborn in imperial?  [wink] [wink]  [big grin]

Offline typeshige

  • Posts: 17
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #86 on: June 22, 2016, 02:36 PM »
Will this change in any slow the introduction of new tools to NA even further given the additional engineering that it seems is required to change from a default metric design to an Imperial one?

Good question. No, it shouldn't. This adjustment is pretty simple, so it shouldn't release product release timelines.

Can't there be a way to make kits to swap between the two measurement systems? I'd gladly pay extra for this.

Or offer metric as a special order item.  I know Festool USA must have done a lot of market research but nothing like having both options available to show which one actually sells better.

Please reconsider!!!

six-point socket

  • Guest
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #87 on: June 22, 2016, 02:51 PM »
Hi!

I really like Festool and because of that I wish Festool North America the best of luck with this endeavor/ business decision, from the bottom of my heart!  [smile]

Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline AIPDX

  • Posts: 119
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2016, 03:15 PM »
Sounds like Festool is trying to find its path in this market and struggles with figuring out what the end users want. Clearly, when a seasoned woodworker in the US considers buying his first Festool tool, he may think - not only it is very expensive, it is also in units which do not match anything in my shop and which I do not know how to use. I can see the idea behind this change, Festool wants to eliminate obstacles for promoting its tools in the US to a wider group of end users. But implementation does not sound right.

I grew up in Europe before moving to the US some 20 years ago. I worked for a national lab in the US for a long time. Everything in Europe is metric, everything in science (also in the US) is also metric. So I became "bilingual" in units. It is funny how it works in my head. I learned how to use imperial units, but anything below 1/8" is a struggle, both when it comes to reading it off the scale and to adding fractions. I use metric whenever I can for everything that requires precision better than 1/8", but I typically find myself using imperial for measurements that do not require precision better than 1/8 or 1/4 of an inch - just because readings off the measuring tape are smaller in inches and easier to remember.

For better or for worse, when it comes to lumber, when it comes to router bits, when it comes to drill bits (if they are not Festool), when it comes to standard dimensions of kitchen cabinets, etc., one has to deal with imperial units. This is where nightmare starts. Try to calculate by how much to offset a fence for routing with a 5/8" bit using a metric scale, and try doing it without a calculator. Set up a domino with metric scale for a 3/4" wood to cut right in the middle. It is not about using an outdated system of units which almost no other country in the world uses, it is about making it work within the existing "ecosystem" around us. Having access to imperial units on Festool tools can lead to a significant simplification of work flow.

The problem which I see with this decision is that while  tools with imperial scales will fit better into the US reality,  the existing Festool ecosystem will start breaking apart. It is OK when every tool uses the same units. However it can only get worse if it becomes a mix and match. The last thing we want is to have a units mismatch between Festool tools. We want them to be either "bilingual" or easily switchable depending on the task.

A revolutionary decision  would be to implement either a dual scale when possible, or a digital display when dual scale is impossible. Imagine how nice it would be to have a digital depth display on a router or track saw. It would be super easy to reset it to a zero plunge/cut depth, very easy to read, and very easy to switch from digital to metric and back.

The decision to change about 8 tools to imperial while keeping the rest in metric can only create confusion and dissatisfaction... If they started offering metric, the way forward is to attract imperial users who are not ready to convert or can't convert because of the work that they are doing, while keeping the metric customer base happy.

Festool appears to lack a roadmap and could better research its customer base and market.



Offline Duck76

  • Posts: 25
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #89 on: June 22, 2016, 03:20 PM »
Another unhappy Canuck here.  While I can work in both systems, the metric system is much easier and it is the official system of measurement here in Canada. 

I can understand the position to offer imperial tools to the US market but please don't force the rest of us to do the same!

Or maybe it's just a ploy to boost sales this quarter by triggering a rush to buy the remaining metric tools in stock?