Author Topic: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America  (Read 71800 times)

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Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #300 on: July 02, 2016, 12:46 PM »
Most of the angst over this move would be mitigated with dual scales or continuing to also offer the metric counterparts.

That's exactly right.

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Offline SoonerFan

  • Posts: 451
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #301 on: July 02, 2016, 05:02 PM »
Completely agree.  I am a metric fan having almost completely switched and either of these would be welcome news to me.

Most of the angst over this move would be mitigated with dual scales or continuing to also offer the metric counterparts.

Offline Greg Powers

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #302 on: July 02, 2016, 06:33 PM »
While I'm glad to be able to get some imperial tools, eliminating their metric counterparts is a big mistake. I'm all for folks having a choice which system they want to use.

Exactly! Especially as they are already made in metric as it stands. This is possibly one of the most stupid and most ignorant thing I have seen Festool do for a while! Feel sorry for those in NA who are denied the choice. Not an imperial vs metric debate, but criticism of Festool forcing a change when it would be so easy to offer imperial as an alternative, not an imposed decision and keep the current metric line-up!

It is a very sad dayWhen Festool goes ALL Metric..

I have a lot of money invested in Festool and the Metric system. All my layout tool are Metric. Now any new Festool will be Imperial. Sad.

If Festool is going to move toward Imperial they should still offer a CHOICE for Metric option also. You are leaving a lot of your faithful, early adopters out in the cold.

VERY SAD!!
Greg Powers
Size:XL

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #303 on: July 02, 2016, 07:53 PM »
Quote
Ia vote for a switch from degrees to radians. Pi/4 [smile]

What about calibrating in Shaku and Sun for those of us with a passion for Japanese joinery?

@Eucli I defer to your geometry.


[quote author=]
...
Exactly! Especially as they are already made in metric as it stands. This is possibly one of the most stupid and most ignorant thing I have seen Festool do for a while! Feel sorry for those in NA who are denied the choice. Not an imperial vs metric debate, but criticism of Festool forcing a change when it would be so easy to offer imperial as an alternative, not an imposed decision and keep the current metric line-up!
[/quote]

I doubt it is ignorant, but could be.
More likely is that they see an advantage that we cannot.
It is unlikely that it is throngs of tradies looking to spend money.
It could be as simple as having a better reason for custom pricing structure voluntary by country.

I for one am not overly rule bound and will usually order from overseas to save 30-40%. Having models custom to each country increases manufacturing cost and consumer cost.

Who know why? But there is a reason.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4726
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #304 on: July 02, 2016, 09:03 PM »
I haven't thought much about the parallel guides switching to Imperial since I mostly use the things like a story stick transferring size from the workpiece or a combination square etc. But when I do set the thing by the numbers it's good to have so many options.

Presently there are 500 marks to choose from (150mm to 650mm) and the marks are close enough together that you can hit .5 mm pretty easily. (I wanted more and covered the molded curser with a vernier scale so I can find .1mm)

When the guide changes to Imperial you'll only have 314 marks to choose from and they'll be pretty far apart. If Festool marked the new US Parallel Guide in 1/32" instead of the planned 1/16" marks I'd be tempted to buy one but with so many fewer marks the US version would not interest me even if it cost proportionally less.

Offline erock

  • Posts: 1254
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #305 on: July 02, 2016, 11:04 PM »
Not sure if I'm over reacting to this whole mm/imperial  scale thing......

But, I ordered a Bosch router instead of the OF1010.    I just hope the dust collection with the Bosch is decent.   And for giggles I ordered a Bosch 5" RO sander. 

I received a Bosch catalog in the mail and they've got some nice tools !      [scratch chin]

Eric

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7211
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #306 on: July 02, 2016, 11:26 PM »
Most of the angst over this move would be mitigated with dual scales or continuing to also offer the metric counterparts.

Most...you really think so?

I'd say ALL  [thumbs up]...because it's all about having a choice and this is the most discombobulated decision I've seen from a mature, sophisticated, supposedly intelligent engineering/manufacturing facility ever.

I worked in the semiconductor manufacturing arena for over 30 years and that industry is by far the most knee-jerk, reactionary group of people, because if you crash only 25 wafers in the manufacturing process, that's worth $1+ million dollars and it can/will cost you your job. Yet as whacky as the semiconductor industry could be, they did think through the process thoroughly.
I guarantee this decision has not been thought through to that same level of awareness. It's strictly a marketing driven promise that if you change to imperial scales there will be a XXXX% increase in sales.  Yawn...there's a $600-$700 price differential between You and Them...did you factor that in to your rush to sales picture?

This mistaken marketing position will become obvious when the person that buys the imperial tool, because that's what he/she wants, looks at the imperial scales and salivates because that's what they've always wanted and then attempts to adjust their new imperial tool in metric increments...whoops, that's not what I wanted.

Tragic...opportunity lost.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 11:54 PM by Cheese »

Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #307 on: July 03, 2016, 01:26 AM »

I'd say ALL  [thumbs up]...because it's all about having a choice and this is the most discombobulated decision I've seen from a mature, sophisticated, supposedly intelligent engineering/manufacturing facility ever.

I worked in the semiconductor manufacturing arena for over 30 years and that industry is by far the most knee-jerk, reactionary group of people, because if you crash only 25 wafers in the manufacturing process, that's worth $1+ million dollars and it can/will cost you your job. Yet as whacky as the semiconductor industry could be, they did think through the process thoroughly.
I guarantee this decision has not been thought through to that same level of awareness. It's strictly a marketing driven promise that if you change to imperial scales there will be a XXXX% increase in sales.  Yawn...there's a $600-$700 price differential between You and Them...did you factor that in to your rush to sales picture?

This mistaken marketing position will become obvious when the person that buys the imperial tool, because that's what he/she wants, looks at the imperial scales and salivates because that's what they've always wanted and then attempts to adjust their new imperial tool in metric increments...whoops, that's not what I wanted.

Tragic...opportunity lost.

Everything you said is spot on!

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #308 on: July 03, 2016, 02:20 AM »
Most of the angst over this move would be mitigated with dual scales or continuing to also offer the metric counterparts.

Most...you really think so?

I'd say ALL  [thumbs up]...because it's all about having a choice and this is the most discombobulated decision I've seen from a mature, sophisticated, supposedly intelligent engineering/manufacturing facility ever.

I worked in the semiconductor manufacturing arena for over 30 years and that industry is by far the most knee-jerk, reactionary group of people, because if you crash only 25 wafers in the manufacturing process, that's worth $1+ million dollars and it can/will cost you your job. Yet as whacky as the semiconductor industry could be, they did think through the process thoroughly.
I guarantee this decision has not been thought through to that same level of awareness. It's strictly a marketing driven promise that if you change to imperial scales there will be a XXXX% increase in sales.  Yawn...there's a $600-$700 price differential between You and Them...did you factor that in to your rush to sales picture?

This mistaken marketing position will become obvious when the person that buys the imperial tool, because that's what he/she wants, looks at the imperial scales and salivates because that's what they've always wanted and then attempts to adjust their new imperial tool in metric increments...whoops, that's not what I wanted.

Tragic...opportunity lost.

I understand what you're saying, but considering the allergic reaction some metric zealots have at the mere mention of imperial I'm confident there would still be some who complain even if Festool offered dual scales or continued with both the imperial and metric options. My preference would definitely be towards a dual scale though whenever possible, especially since the mechanical increments will remain metric. The imperial portion of the dual scale would basically act as a reference for imperial thinkers in an imperial culture. As in "I want my track saw set a bit deeper than this 3/4" ply and now I can see it on the scale". The metric portion would correspond to the clicks so folks can still understand where the setting actually is numerically and not some mutant tweener value that doesn't match the imperial scale. The goal being that folks can accept that it is a metric based tool but now find it much easier to integrate into their imperial world. As mentioned previously, it's no different than the speedometer in my vehicle dashboard. I don't at all think in km/h but I am sure glad that dual scale is on my speedo when I visit Canada.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 02:25 AM by Paul G »
+1

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #309 on: July 03, 2016, 02:27 AM »
Not sure if I'm over reacting to this whole mm/imperial  scale thing......

But, I ordered a Bosch router instead of the OF1010.    I just hope the dust collection with the Bosch is decent.   And for giggles I ordered a Bosch 5" RO sander. 

I received a Bosch catalog in the mail and they've got some nice tools !      [scratch chin]

Eric

@erock I'll be really interested to know what you think of the Bosch routers .. did you go for the one with the digital display? .. https://www.bosch-professional.com/gb/en/gof-1250-lce-34966-ocs-p/ .. or the NA equivalent obviously [wink]

They really seem to have got the accessories sorted out too!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 02:29 AM by Kev »

Offline andy5405

  • Posts: 406
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #310 on: July 03, 2016, 02:37 AM »
I was quite surprised when I first read this thread and have since thought about it. It isn't exactly a massive inconvenience as the scales being talked about on most of the tools affected are only a guide and accurate measurements are normally achieved by other means anyway.

Also I'm guessing Festool have thought this one through. They wouldn't go to the trouble and expense of creating different tools if they didn't anticipate a significant return on their investment. If the rest of the market place is imperial then it makes complete sense for Festool to fall in line with what the majority of other manufacturers are doing. The metric die hards shouldn't be blaming Festool because a country of significant size still relies on an antiquated measuring system. An island mentality always has it's disadvantages and as a Brit I'm well qualified to say that!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7211
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #311 on: July 03, 2016, 09:04 AM »
...and not some mutant tweener value that doesn't match the imperial scale.

it's no different than the speedometer in my vehicle dashboard. I don't at all think in km/h but I am sure glad that dual scale is on my speedo when I visit Canada.

I like the mutant tweener phrase... [thumbs up]

Referencing your speedometer, if Festool manufactured autos, on their feel-good American/Canadian version, the speedometer would read in MPH but when you pushed the button for instant mileage, that would only show kilometers per liter.  [eek]

Offline Drich

  • Posts: 198
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #312 on: July 03, 2016, 10:24 AM »
I just had a idea how to stick it to festool. When these hit the stores everybody go out and buy one then return it with in the 30 day period and state the reason if for the lack of a metric scale and flood them with returns. That should get their attention. What else can one do? The only way they will listen is if it cost them cash.

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2057
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #313 on: July 03, 2016, 10:40 AM »
So here is something you can do. Ask Tyler for the head of Festool USA's name and email or office address and write a letter. Physical letters are a very effective way of getting someone's attention. The thought and care to go and either hand write, type or print the letter takes time, as does putting a stamp on it and getting it to the USPS.

I am fairly certain that Tyler has shared the comments made on this and other threads but it may be falling on deaf ears. If the head honcho gets 100 letters in his lap in a week, someone will notice.

In full honesty, I will not be writing a letter about this because it isn't impacting me or making me upset. If this is the final path they have chosen, and I am not happy about it, I would walk to another manufacturer for future tools.

Keep calm and metric on my friends!

Cheers. Bryan.


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People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline webfarmer

  • Posts: 81
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #314 on: July 03, 2016, 03:24 PM »
This decision is like Apple Macintosh deciding to use Windows 10.  I'm appalled.  "It's a system" rings hollow.

Offline Construct

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #315 on: July 03, 2016, 07:35 PM »
I just had a idea how to stick it to festool. When these hit the stores everybody go out and buy one then return it with in the 30 day period and state the reason if for the lack of a metric scale and flood them with returns. That should get their attention. What else can one do? The only way they will listen is if it cost them cash.

Please don't do this. It won't have the effect you desire, and it's a huge waste of time and resources for people throughout the supply chain. It's also unrealistic to expect that more than a handful of people would actually do this.

If you're upset, send feedback directly to Festool. Don't abuse their generous return policies with a vague hope that your complaint will somehow carry more weight.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #316 on: July 04, 2016, 03:51 AM »
I just had a idea how to stick it to festool. When these hit the stores everybody go out and buy one then return it with in the 30 day period and state the reason if for the lack of a metric scale and flood them with returns. That should get their attention. What else can one do? The only way they will listen is if it cost them cash.

Please don't do this. It won't have the effect you desire, and it's a huge waste of time and resources for people throughout the supply chain. It's also unrealistic to expect that more than a handful of people would actually do this.

If you're upset, send feedback directly to Festool. Don't abuse their generous return policies with a vague hope that your complaint will somehow carry more weight.


Simpler is buying an MT55...  [big grin]
Or if one somehow likes the FT tracks  [blink], then a Makita.

Alternatively it doesn't make a lot of difference to people understanding metric to convert to inches, or to just use a stick-on metric label.

It is hard to justify complaining that FT are not as common and also complain that they want to serve imperial(ist) users.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 03:54 AM by Holmz »

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #317 on: July 04, 2016, 09:48 AM »
I just had a idea how to stick it to festool. When these hit the stores everybody go out and buy one then return it with in the 30 day period and state the reason if for the lack of a metric scale and flood them with returns. That should get their attention. What else can one do? The only way they will listen is if it cost them cash.

Please don't do this. It won't have the effect you desire, and it's a huge waste of time and resources for people throughout the supply chain. It's also unrealistic to expect that more than a handful of people would actually do this.

If you're upset, send feedback directly to Festool. Don't abuse their generous return policies with a vague hope that your complaint will somehow carry more weight.


Simpler is buying an MT55...  [big grin]
Or if one somehow likes the FT tracks  [blink], then a Makita.

Alternatively it doesn't make a lot of difference to people understanding metric to convert to inches, or to just use a stick-on metric label.

It is hard to justify complaining that FT are not as common and also complain that they want to serve imperial(ist) users.
No one is complaining about festool serving imperial users. They are complaining that festool will no longer serve metric users even though the tools are still metric and festool still produces metric tools.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #318 on: July 04, 2016, 10:08 AM »
Well, I suspect (but don't know) that we will hear more in the next few days from Festool.  Until then please continue posting your thoughts and comments in a constructive, polite manner like you have been doing.

Peter

Offline Stoli

  • Posts: 354
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #319 on: July 04, 2016, 10:35 AM »
Without getting into which system is better, the thing that really surprises me is that there will be a horribly combined system: imperial scales, but metric lead screw (at least on the 1400) with 0.1mm detents.  Most people can work in one system or the other, but combining them seems crazy.
DF500; OF1400; ETS125; CXS; installer Kit;  Kapex

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #320 on: July 04, 2016, 10:52 AM »
Without getting into which system is better, the thing that really surprises me is that there will be a horribly combined system: imperial scales, but metric lead screw (at least on the 1400) with 0.1mm detents.  Most people can work in one system or the other, but combining them seems crazy.

This raises a very important go to market issue. If your product is specific, people can make a like or don't like decision .. then they either buy it or they don't. If your product is confusing, people simply don't buy it. All of Festool's hype is about "the System". I doubt very few people here invested in an expensive Festool track saw without looking into what else was offered and how it all hung together.

The thing that really concerns me I suppose is what Festool NA perceive their average prospective customer to be in terms of intelligence and forethought ... or do they simply believe that there's a massive untapped market for people that don't care as much about tool precision and just want to buy expensive green track saws and routers that aren't covered in "confusing metric gibberish" ??

The crystal ball looks ominously cloudy on this ...

Offline Greg Powers

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #321 on: July 04, 2016, 12:36 PM »

This raises a very important go to market issue. If your product is specific, people can make a like or don't like decision .. then they either buy it or they don't. If your product is confusing, people simply don't buy it. All of Festool's hype is about "the System". I doubt very few people here invested in an expensive Festool track saw without looking into what else was offered and how it all hung together.


The system will no longer exist for current METRIC users. After all we all bought into a SYSTEM. Now that SYSTEM is being taken away and replaced with a IMPERIAL SYSTEM.

Sad day...
Greg Powers
Size:XL

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #322 on: July 04, 2016, 01:45 PM »

The system will no longer exist for current METRIC users. After all we all bought into a SYSTEM. Now that SYSTEM is being taken away and replaced with a IMPERIAL SYSTEM.

Sad day...

Based on the announcement I'd argue there is no imperial system being put in place and the system built around metric is being (partially) obscured in NA. It's a bizarre kludge to say the least.
+1

Offline slalom

  • Posts: 37
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #323 on: July 04, 2016, 02:06 PM »
For my needs, the track saw should stay in metric as most veneer ply that I am able to buy is metric, only the construction grades (HK saw?) seems to be imperial.

Offline Ivan T

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #324 on: July 04, 2016, 03:58 PM »
During my use of the Festool Router and Festool Track Saw I do not recall ever having used the metric scale to set the depth of the final cut and relying on that to be exactly what I needed. I adjust the TS blade to extend past the bottom of the material I am cutting. For a dado I would do test cuts to get my final depth of cut.  For deeper cuts I may do a shallow cut first and then do a finish cut, but the scale is not that important to do this. When I use the Router I use the scale to make multiple plunge depths but my final depth is decided by where I have the turret stop positioned.
I think in Imperial so I put an imperial sticker on my TS 55s. I know the thickness of the material I am cutting, I add for the guide rail thickness and add some so the blade protrudes through the material. It is easier to look at an imperial scale and then add a 1/4 or 3/8 inch and do the cut.
Most of the people I know are Imperialist and would rather see an imperial scale. I think Festool has made a change we Imperialist will appreciate.
I use Senaca Parellel Gides with Imperial Measurements.
I'm just out here cutting wood and enjoying my Festools.

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 908
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #325 on: July 04, 2016, 05:48 PM »
I ran into this in the South Park City Museum, in the school house museum building.  Yes, it's the South Park of TV fame, and so the claim to ultimate authority must be taken with a modicum of skepticism.  However, the quote reinforces the idea that metric vs. imperial can take on the aura of a religious war.

Just so that viewing this post would not be seen as a total waste of time, I'm also including a picture of the 1880's drill press that they have in the carpenter's shop  [eek].

247336-0

247338-1

« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 05:53 PM by HarveyWildes »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4726
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #326 on: July 04, 2016, 07:37 PM »
Referring to the blackboard...

We want our Freedom Inches back!

Oh wait, I've got it backwards or something... [huh]

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #327 on: July 04, 2016, 10:23 PM »
During my use of the Festool Router and Festool Track Saw I do not recall ever having used the metric scale to set the depth of the final cut and relying on that to be exactly what I needed. I adjust the TS blade to extend past the bottom of the material I am cutting. For a dado I would do test cuts to get my final depth of cut.  For deeper cuts I may do a shallow cut first and then do a finish cut, but the scale is not that important to do this. When I use the Router I use the scale to make multiple plunge depths but my final depth is decided by where I have the turret stop positioned.
I think in Imperial so I put an imperial sticker on my TS 55s. I know the thickness of the material I am cutting, I add for the guide rail thickness and add some so the blade protrudes through the material. It is easier to look at an imperial scale and then add a 1/4 or 3/8 inch and do the cut.
Most of the people I know are Imperialist and would rather see an imperial scale. I think Festool has made a change we Imperialist will appreciate.
I use Senaca Parellel Gides with Imperial Measurements.
I'm just out here cutting wood and enjoying my Festools.

@Ivan T

This is the bit I just seriously don't get .. you don't really care about the scale, yet you'd prefer imperial. You have a lot of fellow NA FOGgers here that use the metric scale effectively in their workflow - regardless of the people you "know".

Wouldn't you "prefer" that Festool continued to service their loyal metric Festool customers as well as possible future imperial / hybrid customers? .. or do you like the idea of Festool NA screwing with North Americans that have had the audacity to use and embrace the metric system?

This is a serious question .. because I can't comprehend why even the people that want to have imperial scales on their Festool tools would want to see the people that want and currently use metric scales screwed over? Wouldn't the considerate thinking be to pressure Festool to offer both and say as much regardless of your specific preference?

 

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #328 on: July 05, 2016, 01:11 AM »

...
Wouldn't you "prefer" that Festool continued to service their loyal metric Festool customers...
...

Really once they have purchased it then that is done and dusted, and the new customer is next.

As to buying FT for quality, it is generally safe, but it can be questionable for any specific tool.
I am thinking about the plunge saws and rails, and jigsaws. It is not 100% clear that they are far and away "the best", but they quality.

Then there are people wanting tools that already exist to be peddled by Festool.
So if they have a psychologist and marketing person they may be better off than just having an engineer. Basically many just want to get a festool even if something else exists abs is just as good.

What's wrong with ...

Do you think Festool will make a better one as they always claim?


It's not GREEN! ;)

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #329 on: July 05, 2016, 01:51 AM »

Really once they have purchased it then that is done and dusted, and the new customer is next.

There's also return customers to consider
+1