Author Topic: Dominos for outdoor use  (Read 2741 times)

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Offline HowardH

  • Posts: 1396
Dominos for outdoor use
« on: August 02, 2022, 09:36 PM »
How well will the beech dominos hold up when used outdoors vs. Sipo?  Will they hold up over time? I'm referring to 8x50's. 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2022, 09:40 PM by HowardH »
Howard H
The Dallas Texas Festool Fanatic!

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Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 259
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2022, 10:36 PM »
My understanding is that Beech is terrible outdoors. So, if moisture gets to them, big problem. I bought the Sipo's for an exterior project and continue to use what were left over in interior applications.

Offline James Carriere

  • Posts: 84
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2022, 10:50 PM »
Hi Howard,

Wood can get wet regularly without issue so long as it can dry quickly.  Wood that gets wet and remains wet (think an encapsulated floating tenon that has no natural airflow or weep holes to let moisture drain) will rot.  Beech has no natural resistance to decay whereas Sipo does.  If your project only needs to last a year or two then it really doesn't matter which domino tenons you use as it's been deemed disposable at the time of fabrication.  However, if you want any measurable durability Sipo is the only purchased choice to use.

I am assuming you are asking the question as cost is an issue and you prefer not to buy a full box of Sipo tenons for a single project.  Some independent Festool dealers will split boxes and sell individual long lengths of domino material as a service to their customers as full boxes are costly and you can cut them to the length you need.  You can check with your local dealer to see it this is an option for you if you prefer not to buy a full box of tenons. Alternatively you could make your own out of mahogany if only a handful are needed.  I would not use cedar or redwood despite their natural resistance to decay and the wood is too soft for this purpose.  You could also reach out to the forum to see if someone is willing to sell or gift you some if you only need a few.

Good luck!
James



Offline HowardH

  • Posts: 1396
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2022, 11:58 PM »
I was thinking about using them in some outdoor furniture to supplement and align some miter joints in material made of composite so there is zero chance of them getting soaked through like it they were in wood.  The material has a plastic waterproof wrap. The only possible exposure is the joint which would be glued up using Titebond III. Sipo would be ideal but I would think in this application they would last quite awhile.
Howard H
The Dallas Texas Festool Fanatic!

Mark Twain:  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a letter approving of it." "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything."

mft1080, P1cc, MFT/3, T15, TID-18, RO150FEQ, ETS EC 150, MT55cc, RTS400, CT22, CT36E, 800, 1080, 1400, 1900 rails, OF 2200, OF1400, CSX, C18, VacSys, Vecturo, Domino, Qwas dogs, Parf Dogs, Zobo's, Syslite Uni, CMS GE, Sawstop contractor, PM 1500, Shaper Origin. Felder AF-14

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9880
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2022, 12:45 AM »
Sipo would be ideal but I would think in this application they would last quite awhile.

Well define "quite awhile."  My current definition of that term is having to never touch it again in my lifetime, as time is running out.  [smile]

If I were 40 years old maybe my definition would be something more like not having to revisit it for 20 years. In the end it's all relative however time marches forward at a more rapid pace than we do so what was once "quite awhile" suddenly becomes "something that needs immediate help" and that's not pretty.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3712
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2022, 12:53 AM »
A lot of outdoor furniture that lasts does not use sipo in its joints. Given the additional info. provided, I think beech dominoes used with epoxy glue will be fine.

Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2022, 06:05 AM »
Hei,

Little offtopic.

What wood is sipo('s)?
- leaves or needles...

BR Simo

Offline thudchkr

  • Posts: 202
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2022, 06:55 AM »
Hei,

Little offtopic.

What wood is sipo('s)?

BR Simo

A more proper name is Utile.

“ Sometimes called Sipo Mahogany, or simply Sipo, Utile is in the Meliaceae family, and is somewhat related to the true mahoganies found in the Swietenia genus.”

https://www.wood-database.com/utile/
Clint

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3865
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2022, 07:36 AM »
I built about 10 outdoor benches out of Ipe and used Sipo tenons. They have been in the “wild” for well over 10 years. The joints are still tight. No surface treating sever. Just raw wood.

I think the Sipo tenons were 10-50mm. I swabbed out the mortises with acetone before glueing. I did some with 2 part epoxy and some with TB III. All have lasted. Don’t see any differences. Definitely use TB III as it isn’t messy.

I bought a box of long Sipo stock and cut the tenons to length. Still have a ton left.

What I wished I had done was to seal the cut ends immediately as the Ipe tends to check if not sealed. The checks are very minor and I am probably the only person to notice.
Birdhunter

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2022, 08:07 AM »
You could always make your own dominos from scraps of the same wood used for the project.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6895
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2022, 12:39 PM »
I only have Beech dominos and use them for everything inside outside what ever.

 But then I live in Az where we dont have much moisture.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1404
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2022, 04:01 PM »
If the dominoes are completely encapsulated and waterproof glue was used, I don’t know how the dominoes would even know if they were indoors or outdoors. 

I don’t use dominoes, but I do use dowels and floating tenons.  I’ve used both for screen doors that are exposed to the elements. I’ve never even considered it an issue. The dowels are fully encapsulated and I use Woodworkers III, which is marketed as waterproof.  Additionally, I have a good coat of exterior paint covering all the surfaces (including the joints).  I consider it a non-issue.

Similarly, does rebar rust after being encased in concrete? 

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2022, 05:59 PM »
"Similarly, does rebar rust after being encased in concrete? "

Most definitely does, especially if near brackish or salt water.

It's one of the problems with the thousands of bridges across the country that are failing.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1682
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2022, 08:17 AM »
Hi Howard,

Wood can get wet regularly without issue so long as it can dry quickly.  Wood that gets wet and remains wet (think an encapsulated floating tenon that has no natural airflow or weep holes to let moisture drain) will rot.  Beech has no natural resistance to decay whereas Sipo does.  If your project only needs to last a year or two then it really doesn't matter which domino tenons you use as it's been deemed disposable at the time of fabrication.  However, if you want any measurable durability Sipo is the only purchased choice to use.

I am assuming you are asking the question as cost is an issue and you prefer not to buy a full box of Sipo tenons for a single project.  Some independent Festool dealers will split boxes and sell individual long lengths of domino material as a service to their customers as full boxes are costly and you can cut them to the length you need.  You can check with your local dealer to see it this is an option for you if you prefer not to buy a full box of tenons. Alternatively you could make your own out of mahogany if only a handful are needed.  I would not use cedar or redwood despite their natural resistance to decay and the wood is too soft for this purpose.  You could also reach out to the forum to see if someone is willing to sell or gift you some if you only need a few.

Good luck!
James

The 8x50 in SIPO are already available in blisterpacks of 100.

Offline smorgasbord

  • Posts: 77
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2022, 04:33 PM »
This is an interesting discussion - I know there were similar discussions back in the day when biscuits reined supreme.

To rot, the domino's moisture content will have to reach a 20% threshold and that might activate the wood-rotting fungi. But, then again, is there enough oxygen inside the joint to feed the fungi? See https://thecraftsmanblog.com/what-causes-wood-rot/ for instance.

And then, if you're using a glue like Titebond III, and used enough, isn't the domino pretty well encapsulated by the glue? So, between the wood around the domino and the glue that soaked into the domino I would think that the conditions for wood rot might be relatively rare.

That said, the cost/effort to get/make spiro or other species tenons isn't that much. Maybe better safe than sorry, but that might depend on your project's expected lifetime.

Offline Muttley000

  • Posts: 32
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2022, 09:35 PM »
What about making your own out of white oak?  Very hard, decently rot resistant, and readily available in most of the US anyway.
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Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3865
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2022, 07:13 AM »
I'm not seeing the logic in looking for alternatives to Sipo considering the time and materials cost of building a project.
Birdhunter

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1404
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2022, 09:26 AM »
I understand that dominoes are compressed (like biscuits) and expand when they absorb the water from the glue.  So even if the water was to penetrate to the domino, there would be no space to allow water to accumulate.

I suppose you could make your own dominoes out of Douglas fir, which has very good exterior properties. My Douglas fir deck, built in 1953 needed replacement in 2002—so about 50 years of service.  Decent outdoor lifespan for a modestly priced grade of lumber.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9880
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2022, 09:48 AM »
I'm not seeing the logic in looking for alternatives to Sipo considering the time and materials cost of building a project.

I'm with you 100%...for most of us, I doubt that we'd go through more than 200 of the Sipo 8mm Dominos in an entire year, that's $100. And if it's 100 Sipo's per year, that's only $50.

I can agree with the theoretical argument that once the Domino is inserted into its sarcophagus and sealed with TB III or epoxy, nothing should be able to attack it or deteriorate it. That makes sense, but there must be a reason that Festool made a conscious decision to offer an alternative material. I doubt that decision was made in a vacuum.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1404
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2022, 10:13 AM »
Which came first, the Sipo or the KD hardware?  For KD this may make more sense.

It seems (from the Festool blurb) that the Sipo does not expand noticeably when exposed to glue and therefore will not telegraph through lumber or plywood. 

I am trying to imagine that occurring. It seems no more likely than it happening with 1/2” diameter dowels, and I have never seen that happen with dowels.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3712
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2022, 11:41 AM »
I buy the regular beech tenons in their bulk packs by the quantity of 500 to 1800 depending on the size. I can, of course, make them on the table saw and the router table with a round over bit from scraps (oak, walnut, cherry or sepele, my go-to lumber). But my interest lies in furniture and cabinetmaking, and that's where I want most of my shop time spent on, not on making tenons.

However, if I only needed the Sipo just once or twice, I'd hesitate in spending $100 on it, seeing, say, 90% of its stock collecting dust in the next 10 years. In that case, I'd be willing to make my own rot-resistant tenons from, for instance, walnut or white oak scrap. Or I may just take my chance with the "epoxy-soaked" beech dominoes! [tongue]
« Last Edit: August 05, 2022, 11:43 AM by ChuckS »

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3865
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2022, 11:48 AM »
My application involving Sipo was building 10 outdoor benches of Ipe. Very expensive wood, but my main concern was the safety of people sitting on the benches after the benches had been outdoors for many years. If buying Sipo got a margin of safety, however small, the cost was worth it. I check the benches occasionally to ensure they are solid and safe. They are.
Birdhunter

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1682
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2022, 02:14 PM »
"outdoor" also varies based on location

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1326
Re: Dominos for outdoor use
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2022, 04:29 PM »
I hate doing things twice or failures so I would never use anything but the sipos outdoors.