Author Topic: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)  (Read 1816 times)

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Offline Ray.DuBose

  • Posts: 12
Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« on: October 11, 2019, 10:21 AM »
Hey,

 Ordered a Domino 500 which gets delivered today.  Found the forums here and started reading through and now questioning my choice.   This is my first Festool tool and the main reason was for doing weird shaped frames for stained glass but it is a versatile machine and I can think of a million projects I could use this thing for.  While researching I thought the 700 would be nice as well for large projects.

Ran across a couple post that mentioned the Seneca cutter adapter for the 700 that lets you use everything that the 500 can do down to the 4mm cutter on the 700 and questioning If I should cancel my order and get the 700 and an Adapter.  Any thoughts?

Appreciate any help

Thanks
Ray

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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 10:34 AM »
Could you define "large" and how often you plan to do them?

Think along the line of using a sledgehammer vs a tack hammer, or a truck vs a small car.

I do only furniture projects and the DF500 which is far easier to handle has never failed me.

Before you return the DF500, could you handle a DF700 in person and see how it feels?


Offline Dove_Tail

  • Posts: 14
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2019, 11:04 AM »
Hi Ray,

I have the 700 and the Seneca adapter for smaller cutters.  90% of the time I use it this way.  My results are VERY accurate.

On larger projects, I do make use of the larger cutters, so for me I'm happy with the 700.

Chuck makes a good point, the 700 is a bit of a beast compared to the 500.  So you may want to put hands on one before making the change.  I've gotten used to mine and love the machine.

For vertical work I picked up the TSO Products Bigfoot which is a major improvement over the plastic foot that comes with the Domino.  It works on the 500 and 700 and is great.  Here's a link and you can see my review there.  https://tsoproducts.com/accessories/dbf-45-bigfoot-base-support-bracket-for-festool-domino/

Like all tool purchase decisions, the work you do should determine the tool choice.  Since the 700 is now $400 more than the 500, I'd be sure I needed the 700 before investing that much.

Cheers,
Mark




Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 394
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2019, 11:20 AM »
I couldn't afford both so I too have the 700 w/adapter and it is a beast but has really never been an issue.

(Little over 10 years ago I purchased a 500 and had issues with a slipping fence. Had it repaired but really didn't like the operation of the tool and didn't use it much. Then I bought a 700 in the classifieds here at a great price and really like the rear handle - find it much easier for me to use than the 500. I use it so much now I find myself complaining about the cost of the tenons now.)

Mike

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2742
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 02:32 PM »
I have both machines. The 500 gets 80 percent of the work. I use the 700 for benches, beds,etc big stuff. I think the 700 is just too big (awkward) for small work.
Birdhunter

Offline Blues

  • Posts: 28
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 05:12 PM »
You want the most versatility for the least money. 700 wins.
It's not about how often will you use it. It's that one time you want to use it.. you get short changed. 700 wins.
Seneca adapters really make 700 the go to for universal joinery.
700 is ergonomically better balanced and working with it is effortless.
700 wins hands down.
Recently i picked up the mafell dd40. My go to for small joinery. I still use the 700.. and the thought that there is no job i can't handle is good to have with just 1 tool.
In my opinion the best festool tool is 700xl. It was my first festool. Can't be with out it.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 05:15 PM by Blues »

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 278
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2019, 06:48 PM »
I think the Domino 500 or 700 question is very similar to the arguments people have about buying the 55 or 75 track saws.  Some people rave about how wonderful the big 75 is and how it can do everything.  Just like the 700 people say it can do everything.  But for a professional kitchen cabinet maker who cuts 3/4" plywood and 3/4" face frames 100% of the time, is the bigger, heavier, more awkward, powerful 75 saw better than the smaller, nimbler 55 saw?  I'd say no.  Look at all the furniture in your house.  How much of it is made with 8/4 or 12/4 wood and would need 2", 3", 4" tenons?  Probably almost none.  Looking at all the furniture in my house, the biggest piece of wood used is the 3" square legs on my dining room table.  And it has 3/4" thick apron boards stuck into it.  So nothing in my house uses big thick wood.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2019, 07:31 PM »
Frequency does matter.

If I had a moving business, I would own a truck, a big one. But I don't own any truck because it is big, won't fit into my garage and its running costs are much higher (gas, insurance, etc.). The last time (6 years ago) I needed a truck, I rented one. I would own a truck if I could use it often enough.

I have used both the DF500 & 700, but I did not find them the same in terms of ease of handling, and that's why I suggest that the OP try out the DF700. No woodworkers I personally know, including three Festool showroom staff members, who handle both machines day in and day out think the DF700 is just as comfortable to operate as the DF500 when lots of mortises are cut. 

While I can use a sledgehammer for all my hammering needs, I own 4 different sizes of hammers.

If I ever need a joint that my DF500 couldn't handle (even with double or twin mortises)? I would go with a mortise & tenon joint....

Try using a DF700 to cut a three-way mitre joint (8 of them on narrow stock with small registration area) as shown in the photo. When doing three-way mitre joints, good enough is not enough. It calls for dead precision.



« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 07:46 PM by ChuckM »

Offline VirTERM

  • Posts: 55
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2019, 09:02 PM »
Frequency does matter.

If I had a moving business, I would own a truck, a big one. But I don't own any truck because it is big, won't fit into my garage and its running costs are much higher (gas, insurance, etc.). The last time (6 years ago) I needed a truck, I rented one. I would own a truck if I could use it often enough.

I have used both the DF500 & 700, but I did not find them the same in terms of ease of handling, and that's why I suggest that the OP try out the DF700. No woodworkers I personally know, including three Festool showroom staff members, who handle both machines day in and day out think the DF700 is just as comfortable to operate as the DF500 when lots of mortises are cut. 

While I can use a sledgehammer for all my hammering needs, I own 4 different sizes of hammers.

If I ever need a joint that my DF500 couldn't handle (even with double or twin mortises)? I would go with a mortise & tenon joint....

Try using a DF700 to cut a three-way mitre joint (8 of them on narrow stock with small registration area) as shown in the photo. When doing three-way mitre joints, good enough is not enough. It calls for dead precision.
I agree 100%, unless you are building huge doors or beds on a daily basis, 500 will serve you very well. I recently built a large dining table for my daughter. That was a single case when I would appreciate the 700. I end up using double 10mm dominos and the table is rock solid.

Offline Jim_in_PA

  • Posts: 88
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2019, 10:05 PM »
I bought the 700 because it was appropriate for the majority of the work I intended to use it for, but I also got the Seneca adapter to have the ability to use the small Dominos if I felt the need. If I suddenly started to use a lot of the small stuff, I'd fine a way to get the 500 simply because of the weight and size that's already been mentioned. For occasional use, the 700 with the adapter is just fine, but it would get wearying for constant support of the small stuff. IMHO, of course...other's view may and likely will differ sometimes.
----
ETS 150/3, Rotex 150, OF1010, OF1400, Trion PS 300, TDK-12, CT-22, MFT 1080, TS55, Domino XL DF 700, 8' track, (2) 55" tracks

SCM MiniMax S315WS, FS350, MM16, Camaster Stinger II SR-44 CNC

Offline Ray.DuBose

  • Posts: 12
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2019, 12:00 AM »
These are all valid points, There is a woodcraft around the corner that has both the 500 and 700 I can handle and will go check them out tomorrow

I'm a home hobbies so several of my tools have to pull double duty and they will mostly be used only in my shop.  I'm not a high production guy at all and if I stay with the 500 and need something larger I probably wouldn't ever go buy a 700 and would just cut tendons with a router or by hand.  If I ran a business and made money with this I could see buying two tools.  All my work is occasional work :)

Seems some of you are perfectly fine with the 700 running smaller bits and stock which is encouraging.  Think I will just have to handle it and see how it feels.

Appreciate the input.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6609
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2019, 12:32 AM »
Approach this matter with what you view your major projects in the future will be. Will they need to use the #4, #5 #6  or will they need to use the #12 & #14 Domino. The #8 & #10's in the middle are just  common ground.

The 500 is made for small/medium stuff while the 700 is made for big stuff. The 700 is a handful, nice but not necessarily your go-to machine. As Birdhunter said, the 500 is also my go-to machine for 80% of my needs. The 700 fills the other 20%. If 80% of your needs are fulfilled with the 500, there's no need to purchase the 700 with all of its added bulk. The machine then becomes a compromise.

If 80% of your work centers around 7-8 foot outside doors...then the 700 is your choice.


Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1463
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2019, 05:19 PM »
Approach this matter with what you view your major projects in the future will be. Will they need to use the #4, #5 #6  or will they need to use the #12 & #14 Domino. The #8 & #10's in the middle are just  common ground.

The 500 is made for small/medium stuff while the 700 is made for big stuff. The 700 is a handful, nice but not necessarily your go-to machine. As Birdhunter said, the 500 is also my go-to machine for 80% of my needs. The 700 fills the other 20%. If 80% of your needs are fulfilled with the 500, there's no need to purchase the 700 with all of its added bulk. The machine then becomes a compromise.

If 80% of your work centers around 7-8 foot outside doors...then the 700 is your choice.
In my experience the seneca adapter allows to use the 700 for the <8mm dominos with results of the same precision, smartly clamping the workpieces (in a way that resulty in in bigger reference faces for the fence) helps tough.

While I agree that the 500 might be more fun with the 4/5/6 mm cutters when doing production work on a daily basis as of the lower weight of the 500.... I think your 80:20 view is flawed: simply from my need for 12/14mm dominos (and the 14mm connectors) being above absolute zero I only have the choice of having only a DF 700 or or having both machines - as there is no way for the 500 to use the bigger cutters.

And as my supply of money is (regardless of it allowing me a good life in the meantime) limited I picked the option that costs 1k€ less than the other, a decision I'm quite happy with but that (as of the above) might be revised should I start to do <8mm dominos on a daily basis in a production scenario. Till then I'll continue to spend the saved money on material that I can turn into dust, shavings and (hopefully) nice things.

Offline Corey P.

  • Posts: 21
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2019, 01:42 PM »
I was back and forth between the 500 and 700 as well.  Ended up ordering both, and tested for a couple weeks.  While the 700 is a bit unwieldy in comparison to the 500, the Seneca kit really does it make it the overall winner.  I returned the 500.  Haven't had a single problem using the 700 to do 5mm tenons.  Going to try some 4mm this weekend for a project. 

700 with the adapter gives you the most versatility and bang for your buck.

Offline rmhinden

  • Posts: 215
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2019, 08:21 PM »
To add to this topic, I have been using my 700 with the Ramon Valdez dock, Seneca 500 adapters and Dock Plate XL, and TSO Big Foot support Bracket.  It it is an excellent combination for making a lot of mortices in smaller pieces.   This is nice in cases where the 700 might be challenging due to its size.  It's very repeatable.     

Here are some pictures of the setup and the base for a new coffee table I am making out of white oak.   I used 12mm dominos for the legs and top supports, 8mm for the lower side supports, and 5mm for the slats on the bottom.   All were done in the dock except for the lower side supports. 


Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2019, 09:57 AM »
I would echo one question from a previous poster - What do you consider large? The 500 can do larger projects with multiple tenons where added strength is needed. It just isn't suitable for furniture like beds, tables, large outdoor projects (like arbors, pergolas, etc.).

I always look at tools from the standpoint of what they are designed to do. While the 700, with 500 adapters, can do the smaller projects, that is not what it is designed to do. If most of your projects are going to be using 4mm, 5mm, or 6mm Dominos, the 700 would be unwieldy and more difficult to use accurately on the smaller wood parts.

If you are mostly going to use 8mm or 10mm, with some larger (12mm or 14mm), then maybe the 700 with the Seneca adapter may work for you. It's always a dilemma, especially because the Dominos are very expensive. . . . But, regardless, the Domino is worth it. It is probably my favorite tool ever; certainly about the most versatile and easy to use tool in my shop.
Randy

Offline JimD

  • Posts: 404
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2019, 02:09 PM »
I recently purchased a 700 and a full range of cutters, all but the 12mm it came with are CMT.  I bought the "off brand" cutters for the same reason I did not get both a 500 and 700.  I will spend more in the next week or so on the house than both would cost but I can't see spending my money this way.  I have tried the little cutters with the Seneca adapter and I don't see where it is difficult to handle in the slightest.  My 700 sits on a shelf below my DeWalt track saw and looks small by comparison.  I realize it is bigger than a 500 but it is not a really big tool. 

My next project is a bedroom set and I will need the larger tenons for this project.  My last project was a crib and I used the 14mm cutter to make large tenons for the headboard and footboard.  I think it is important to remember that the 500 is limited in both width and depth of cut.  A 1 inch deep mortise is just not deep enough for me to feel comfortable for many furniture joints.  The 2 3/4 deep mortises made by the 700 seem like they are plenty for furniture.  I also do not like the idea of using lots of the pre made tenons.  I prefer to just make them in the width I need for the project.  It takes very little time with a planner and typically I can use scrap.  I like the money savings but my little shop also lacks the space to store huge quantities of tenons.  I always have some little scrap to use up. 

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2019, 03:03 PM »
Snip.  I think it is important to remember that the 500 is limited in both width and depth of cut.  A 1 inch deep mortise is just not deep enough for me to feel comfortable for many furniture joints. 

It is never a wise move to buy a cheaper or smaller tool that doesn't meet your functional needs, of course. Using a DF500 to do a project that requires a stronger joint that can only be provided by a DF700 is not advisable. One wouldn't buy a TS55 to do the job of a TS75.

But the DF 500 is not limited in its width or thickness as you can use double/twin tenons. If you cut your own tenons, you can get whatever widths/size of mortises by making overlapping mortises using the widest setting/adjusting the fence setting. As for the depth, from tables to cabinets to benches, none of my builds have ever failed. Chairs? That would be one of my next DF500 projects.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 03:18 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1463
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2019, 04:10 PM »
But the DF 500 is not limited in its width or thickness ...

His point is that of the 500 being limited in both width and depth of cut, the difference between the plunge depths of the 500 and 700 is nearly factor 3.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2019, 04:46 PM »
I was pointing out only the depth, not the width (implying not both), was an issue. In fact for me, even the depth is not an issue if I need deeper mortises as I have a means to deepen them after milling them with a DF500, but that is a different story. (And my solution, though less efficient, is far far cheaper than paying the difference between the 500 and 700 plus the cost of a Seneca set.)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 04:51 PM by ChuckM »

Offline VirTERM

  • Posts: 55
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2019, 08:50 PM »
Done with double 10/50 dominos, still rock solid after a year...305856-0

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2019, 09:04 PM »
When we build furniture with loose tenons, the size of the tenon alone does not determine everything. How well the fit the joint itself is, how other components (e.g. braces, stretchers, back panels, etc.) are used, and how the glue-up is done also affect the structural strength. Before the DF700 was released, everyone (owners of DF500, that's) was using the DF500 to build things with great results.

I'd definitely buy a DF700 if I am to go for building big entrance doors, huge workbenches and the like. But none of them are on my "to-do" list in the foreseeable future. I'm only a furniture maker.


Offline JimD

  • Posts: 404
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2019, 07:36 PM »
Since my last post, I have started a queen sized bed based upon Woodsmith Classic Cherry Bed plans.  They call for 1/2 by 4 inch by 1.5 inch mortise and tenon joints for the headboard and footboard.  A 500 won't do that.  Would little 1 inch deep joints work?  Probably.  But I increased them to 2 inches deep and trippled 12 mm dominos to get the same 6 square inches of area.  No way to get to six square inches of joint with 1 inch depth since the rails are only 5.5 inches tall.  If you skimp on the shoulders on the top and bottom you could maybe get to 5.5 inches.  Would that work?  Probably.  But I like to build stronger than required, no lighter and hope it doesn't fail. 

I don't think most chair joints are too heavily stressed but the back leg joint to the support under the seat would be a concern with mortises only 25mm deep.  But the plans I use probably only call for 1.25 inches deep so the 500 is probably OK for the chairs I make.  But it cannot do what the plans call for on the bed. 

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Domino Question (using 700 with adaptor for 500)
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2019, 07:42 PM »
Very large or heavy-built beds sure will benefit from bigger joints offered by the DF700. The DF500 can handle ordinary beds that are properly designed. This Korean woodworker shared an example, using the DF500:
https://www.webstagramsite.com/media/B2OyXzSA_EE

Bed: https://www.webstagramsite.com/media/B3-3O07ARVn

Many Ikea beds are built with dowels and metal brackets. Dominoes used with brackets will be stronger than the dowel version, I'm relatively sure.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 07:59 PM by ChuckM »