Author Topic: DF700 vs. DF500  (Read 13505 times)

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Offline feichtpa

  • Posts: 1
DF700 vs. DF500
« on: January 25, 2021, 12:04 PM »
I've been using the DF500 for several years and it's has been a solid machine.  I added a Seneca Domino Plate and that helps with cabinet construction.

I'm considering upgrading to the DF700 but I'm concerned that it is not optimized for 3/4" Stock work like the DF500.

If you've made the change, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks,

Paul

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Offline PeterJJames13

  • Posts: 255
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2021, 12:29 PM »
I'm sure others with more experience will chime in here. But for me - the DF700 is a compliment to the DF500. Not an upgrade.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9998
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2021, 12:51 PM »
But for me - the DF700 is a compliment to the DF500. Not an upgrade.

+1  [big grin]

Online ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2021, 01:48 PM »
I haven't upgraded to the DF700, but have used both machines (and I disagree that the DF700 is as easy to handle as the DF500 which is lighter given my physical size and age, and the large number of mortises I mill on average). The thickness of the work isn't an issue; both can handle 3/4" well. It's the desired depths of the mortises that matter.

For big projects that require deep mortises, heavy doors or big tables, for example, you'll need the DF700. If your plan is to keep on working with 3/4" stock, the switch to a larger joiner won't bring you any added benefits -- unless you aren't happy with the DF500 in certain aspects.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 01:51 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Mike35x95x1

  • Posts: 75
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2021, 02:14 PM »
I haven't upgraded to the DF700, but have used both machines (and I disagree that the DF700 is as easy to handle as the DF500 which is lighter given my physical size and age, and the large number of mortises I mill on average). The thickness of the work isn't an issue; both can handle 3/4" well. It's the desired depths of the mortises that matter.

For big projects that require deep mortises, heavy doors or big tables, for example, you'll need the DF700. If your plan is to keep on working with 3/4" stock, the switch to a larger joiner won't bring you any added benefits -- unless you aren't happy with the DF500 in certain aspects.
100% agree. I own only DF500 and wonder if it’s really possible to mortise thinner materials (18mm or less) with XL domino? I’ve read many disapproving claims...

Sometimes it would be great to have DF700, but for just rare occasions it’s too expensive.


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Offline mkasdin

  • Posts: 476
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2021, 02:49 PM »
I agree it’s too expensive, but if a project or a remodel justifies the cost then it’s worth the outlay of $NAP (North American Pesos). A lightly used 1-2 year old D700 would probably fetch $1,000 or more. It’s one of the tools that’s on the Festool Bucket List. 🪣

I just got my d500 not too long ago, so it will be in (mid) year 2021 that I get a D700
As others have said they compliment each other.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 11:40 PM by mkasdin »

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3885
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2021, 04:01 PM »
I’m fortunate to have both machines. I use the 500 the most by far. The 700 comes out for tables, bed frames, other big stuff. I like the ergonomics of the 700 far better than the 500. I also prefer the 700s connectors over those of the 500. Just my opinion.

If you buy the 700, I recommend buying the full set of cutters and tenons.

Birdhunter

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2021, 06:08 PM »
I agree that they compliment each other, but for a percentage of users, only one might be needed.
I see them as DF500 for sheet goods and cabinets, and the DF700 for larger solid wood projects like doors and table/apron joints.
If you do both, you need both, otherwise stick with the one in for your needs.
I have had a DF500 for 6 years and would like to have a DF700, but I have really only "needed it" 2 or 3 times in that amount of time. I worked-around it with a few more of the smaller tenons, but it wasn't ideal.
As I have said several times, I work in a big cabinet shop, so I don't get to choose what I build, as a hobbyist would. In general, I have to be equipped for nearly any unknown project and big solid wood things just don't happen that often.....still want one though.
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Offline Blues

  • Posts: 167
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2021, 06:37 PM »
Unlike you i got the DF700 first. Just loved it. I also got the rts seneca adapter so i could use it for 3/4 stock.. even 1/2 stock. This was the 1st Festool I purchased. I will never part with it ever. Having said that almost a year ago i picked up the Mafell ddf40 that uses dowels. I must say it is a fantastic tool, extremely precise and is ideally suited for sheet goods. Dowels are cheaper than dominos and you can source them from any where. So these days in my build, i use a combination. I use the domino connectors and dowels for knock down construction. These two machines perfectly compliment each other and address all my joinery needs. I have to say the 700 is very well balanced and the handle is so unique that i don't feel the weight at all. It can be used for fine work for example to build drawers from 1/2" sheet goods using 4mm domino. I believe in spending the least money but having the most option at my disposal. I think ddf40 wins over the 500. The 700 is the ultimate tool.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 06:41 PM by Blues »

Offline mkasdin

  • Posts: 476
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2021, 11:46 PM »
I think for most the D500 is a better machine for starters since it’s less money. The D700 with the Seneca is a nice option, but I felt the heft of the tool was better for dimensional lumber, furniture, doors, gates, outdoor decks, tables, etc. @Blues What was your opinion of the Lamello zeta? I think there process is very nice and it would be a toss up between the DD40 and the Zeta for me?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 11:50 PM by mkasdin »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2084
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2021, 10:49 AM »
I agree that the 500 and 700XL are two different tools with different intended uses; the XL being the tool for larger jobs like beds, large tables, and large media centers. I'm sure that those who have bought adapters for the 700XL and use it for smaller jobs are probably satisfied with its performance for those jobs as well as larger jobs. I personally would never use the 700XL for smaller jobs, adapter or not, especially for 1/2"/12 mm (even for use in 3/4" stock). It's cumbersome and more difficult to hold in place for joints where the area you rest the fence on is small.

I actually do own both but have rarely used the 700XL. I intended on building a very large media storage unit that my wife wanted but have never gotten to it. I've use the 700XL for 2 other projects, but really could have found a way to use the 500 for those also. I would never consider the 700XL an upgrade to the 500. The 500 is an amazing tool all on its own, which has allowed me to create projects which I may never have attempted otherwise because of the difficulty of making joints. I think the 700 XL is also an amazing tool, but it is not intended to replace the 500, but made to do the same job as the 500, just in larger projects. Unless you intend to migrate to larger jobs, I think the money you would spend on a 700XL could be put to other, more productive uses.
Randy

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2021, 05:35 PM »
I think for most the D500 is a better machine for starters since it’s less money. The D700 with the Seneca is a nice option, but I felt the heft of the tool was better for dimensional lumber, furniture, doors, gates, outdoor decks, tables, etc. @Blues What was your opinion of the Lamello zeta? I think there process is very nice and it would be a toss up between the DD40 and the Zeta for me?
The Lamello Zeta P2 is a fabulous tool too. I use it in many situations along with the DF500. They work great in situations were clamping is difficult. Large assemblies, wall panels etc.  I use the Clamex and the Tenso, depending on the situation. Dominos are great for alignment, but they won't pull an assembly together like they can.
I'm in a bit of a unique case though. Many of the things I build have to be disassembled for shipping to a jobsite. Then they get reassembled by someone else. It is rare that I go out to do the install, but I try to make them as easy to put back together as possible.
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OF1010F
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RO90
RO125
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TS75
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Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3885
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2021, 05:47 PM »
The obvious answer to this endless debate on 500 vs 700 is to buy both. That’s what my Festool dealer told me.
Birdhunter

Online ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2021, 06:20 PM »
The obvious answer to this endless debate on 500 vs 700 is to buy both. That’s what my Festool dealer told me.

Hahaha. It always feels good when we can convince someone to spend their money away. Getting both should work for most Festool fans where budget is not a hurdle. But I must say I'm one of the exceptions while I can afford to have both as a hobbyist.

The only reason I'm not having two DFs is that I hate to see a good tool sitting idle in my shop. May be 5% of my furniture builds, if not less, could justify the use of an XL, but I feared that soon I'd resell it. (For the record, I made a small profit when I sold my TS75 and CT26.)

This tool philosophy of mine is why I keep looking around in my shop, trying to find and sell dormant or surplus tools that see little use -- especially when I get a new tool that duplicates some of the functions of an existing one.

Cases in point: Once I got skilled in the DF500, I immediately sold my Delta benchtop mortiser and biscuit joiner. My Dewalt miter saw was gone as soon as the Kapex was set up and tuned. And after building a planing jig for use with my thickness planer, I sold my jointer, too.

I also find that if I have just enough tools, I tend to develop expertise in each one of them because of constant use, while finding new uses of them, too. I'm pretty sure if I had had a DF700 around when I built my nook table, I wouldn't have bothered to learn about twin tenons and how they could help in my projects.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 09:02 PM by ChuckM »

Offline SoonerFan

  • Posts: 542
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2021, 10:23 PM »
I have the DF500 and like it a great deal. I have had it for about five trouble free year now.  I have had a few occasions I needed the 700 but found another option given the cost.  I have a good use case for the 700 coming later this year (large 8/4 oak desk build).  I am temped to order a 700.  I sort of think if I had it more uses would come along. 

Offline shed9

  • Posts: 499
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2021, 07:32 AM »
I was kind of on the opposite end of this situation, having the XL700 and then getting the DF500 although it's not as simple as that. I originally bought both machines a number of years back but went on to sell the DF as I figured the XL was suffice for my needs. I regretted selling the DF as soon as it went out the door and recently repurchased a new DF.

As others have pointed out above, I found I reached for the DF more than the XL even if they were both a relevant fit to the job. The XL feels like a better machine but when you're cutting a lot of mortises then the DF is probably easier on your arms. I also wouldn't consider the XL an upgrade to the DF either, it is suitable for different jobs and different ways of working. If you don't build larger items then the DF is perfect, but if you do a mix of mortising sheet / cabinetry and large project then both probably makes sense. You can get a Domiplate for the XL which will handle sheet but then you ned the RTS adapter and you could argue that that eats into the budget of owning both machines as opposed to one.

Long story short - if the DF does what you want, there is no merit in 'upgrading' to the XL. If you want the convenience of the DF but feel you would benefit from the additional capacity of the XL then buy an XL as well, not instead.


Offline gunnyr

  • Posts: 309
    • Compass Custom Creations
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2021, 07:49 AM »
Happy Friday!

I have both a trim hammer and a framing hammer.  I tend to use my trim hammer the most....... [big grin]

I have had the DF500 for several years, there have been times when I might have liked the DF700 but not often enough to justify the purchase.  I appreciate those that have pointed out that they are complementary tools, the 700 is not an 'upgrade'.  Much like my trim hammer was not an upgrade from my framing hammer; different sizes of the same tool.
Semper Fi,
Jeff

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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9998
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2021, 10:00 AM »

I have both a trim hammer and a framing hammer.  I tend to use my trim hammer the most....... [big grin]


Great analogy...so easy to understand.  [big grin]

Online ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2021, 10:46 AM »

I have both a trim hammer and a framing hammer.  I tend to use my trim hammer the most....... [big grin]


Great analogy...so easy to understand.  [big grin]

I've seen people use big half-ton trucks and small SUVs for comparing the two joiners, but as woodworkers, we certainly can relate better with this hammer illustration!

Offline zachjowi

  • Posts: 108
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2021, 10:12 AM »
had the 500 but needed to add the 700 for making a bed. Can't be bad to have both!

Offline Ebuwan

  • Posts: 120
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2021, 11:26 PM »
I have only the 700 (was I think my second Festool tool?)

I bought the Seneca Woodworking RTS-500 cutting adapter for the 700, and it allows me to cut the smaller mortises with the bits for the 500 no problem. Did a whole bunch of spindles that were less than 3/4" thick for a stair railing.

I haven't run into anything that needed a 500 size domino that the 700 gave me hassle for; maybe there are some specific use cases you would have to use a 500, but i've never run into one yet.

Offline Getmaverick

  • Posts: 198
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2021, 09:22 AM »
I skipped the 500 all together and bought the 700. I went with the lamello zeta p2 to compliment it. Now i have the best of both worlds. [big grin]

Offline jussi

  • Posts: 420
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2021, 01:02 PM »
If I can use the 500 I almost always opt to using it over the 700. Especially if it’s a smaller piece.  I usually only resort to the 700 if I need the extra depth or larger tenons

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1398
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2021, 02:35 PM »
How about a different path, buy a Mafell DDF40 to go with it.  If you need something bigger than the DF500 dominos, you can go to a 12mm dowels on the DDF40, plus you have a tool for doing 32mm cabinets. There is also a DD40P which can do 16mm dowels.

Offline Blues

  • Posts: 167
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2021, 03:35 PM »
How about a different path, buy a Mafell DDF40 to go with it.  If you need something bigger than the DF500 dominos, you can go to a 12mm dowels on the DDF40, plus you have a tool for doing 32mm cabinets. There is also a DD40P which can do 16mm dowels.

Exactly what i did.  King of the hill is 700. I use it with the connectors. For all other smaller builds it's the very accurate ddf40. Dowels are cheap.. i also use pre glued dowels. At times i use 23 gauge pins to secure the build.  Just perfect and quick. 

Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 687
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2021, 04:01 PM »
I think for most the D500 is a better machine for starters since it’s less money. The D700 with the Seneca is a nice option, but I felt the heft of the tool was better for dimensional lumber, furniture, doors, gates, outdoor decks, tables, etc. @Blues What was your opinion of the Lamello zeta? I think there process is very nice and it would be a toss up between the DD40 and the Zeta for me?
I think the two machines are very different in they’re application ,
The DD40 ,like the Domino,is a alignment tool,where as the Zeta is a clamping / alignment tool.
I really like the Zeta and want to get one,but I think the combo of the DD40 and 700 Domino is a great choice.

I currently have a 500 Domino and would like to add a Lamello Zeta to the mix.
Charlie


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Offline Jim_in_PA

  • Posts: 268
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2021, 05:50 PM »
ADDING the Domino 700XL to do the heavier work isn't a horrible thing IF you have the work for it.

For me, I only have the 700XL and have never really used the smaller sub-8mm Dominos to-date, although I have the means to do so with the Seneca adapter and Festool cutters. I use the system for heavier/bigger jobs as I rarely do cabinetry and when I do, I'm perfectly happy with screws and glue.
----
ETS 150/3, Rotex 150, OF1010, OF1400, Trion PS 300, TDK-12, CT-22, MFT 1080, TS55, Domino XL DF 700, 8' track, (2) 55" tracks

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Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2022, 08:50 PM »
ADDING the Domino 700XL to do the heavier work isn't a horrible thing IF you have the work for it.

For me, I only have the 700XL and have never really used the smaller sub-8mm Dominos to-date, although I have the means to do so with the Seneca adapter and Festool cutters. I use the system for heavier/bigger jobs as I rarely do cabinetry and when I do, I'm perfectly happy with screws and glue.

Apologies for resurrecting this older thread. I have been waiting for a df500 but I can't help but think maybe I should just go pick up the df700 Virtually anything I do 3/4 and smaller is glued and screwed or joined with dovetails or finger joints. I am working with predominately 4/4 and 8/4 hardwoods now or some softwoods but mostly hardwoods. Cherry, Maple, Black Walnut, Bubinga, and it's all between 4/4 and 9/4 in thickness. Tables, shelves, doors, I like heavier shelves I am tired of sheet goods in my house. And I think the store's idea of double dominoes is ok I think I would rather have larger dominoes. Is my way of thinking off? I do have an origin if I want smaller holes now and then I can make a jig for the of144 if I need repeated quickness or the origin itself for one-offs. Any thoughts from you all would be appreciated. But I am inclined to step up to the DF700 and have been tossing this thought around since I decided on the DF500 but it wasn't available in the store but on order so I am waiting. They had the DF700 and it might fit my needs better. I just don't want this to be a case of just being impatient. Thanks everyone.
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3885
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2022, 09:29 PM »
The 700 sounds reasonable based on the work you do. Suggest buying the full assortment of tenons and cutters.
Birdhunter

Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2022, 09:59 PM »
I have almost pulled the trigger on it a couple of times over the last week. I did like the idea of double tenons but I just can't come to terms with the smaller tenons. I am not convinced I would use them at all. I have also discovered I like working on bigger projects with larger thicker wood. Thanks again!
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 618
    • In The Woodshop
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2022, 10:21 PM »
ADDING the Domino 700XL to do the heavier work isn't a horrible thing IF you have the work for it.

For me, I only have the 700XL and have never really used the smaller sub-8mm Dominos to-date, although I have the means to do so with the Seneca adapter and Festool cutters. I use the system for heavier/bigger jobs as I rarely do cabinetry and when I do, I'm perfectly happy with screws and glue.

Apologies for resurrecting this older thread. I have been waiting for a df500 but I can't help but think maybe I should just go pick up the df700 Virtually anything I do 3/4 and smaller is glued and screwed or joined with dovetails or finger joints. I am working with predominately 4/4 and 8/4 hardwoods now or some softwoods but mostly hardwoods. Cherry, Maple, Black Walnut, Bubinga, and it's all between 4/4 and 9/4 in thickness. Tables, shelves, doors, I like heavier shelves I am tired of sheet goods in my house. And I think the store's idea of double dominoes is ok I think I would rather have larger dominoes. Is my way of thinking off? I do have an origin if I want smaller holes now and then I can make a jig for the of144 if I need repeated quickness or the origin itself for one-offs. Any thoughts from you all would be appreciated. But I am inclined to step up to the DF700 and have been tossing this thought around since I decided on the DF500 but it wasn't available in the store but on order so I am waiting. They had the DF700 and it might fit my needs better. I just don't want this to be a case of just being impatient. Thanks everyone.

I have the DF500 and am not considering the DF700, possibly ever. Like you, I work with hard woods and predominantly 3/4” thicknesses. I am far more into traditional joinery than mechanical fasteners, and prefer good old mortice-and-tenons and dovetails, both cut with hand tools. As a result, should I build something as large as a door or a large table (both of which I have done and see more in the future) requiring heavy-duty joinery, I would simply use a hand-made/machined M&T joint. Hence no DF700.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on joinery, hand tools, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2022, 10:54 PM »
Yes and that is my approach currently. I wonder how much more efficient I can be with the DF either of them. I want to get more efficient. Perhaps this is not the path, I predominately just edge glued panels 3/4 and under with a biscuit to help alignment but lately, the biscuits don't fit right, they all seem too narrow and they don't do any aligning at all just waste my time. Everything moving forward is 4/4 or bigger. This would only be for panels. All other techniques are large mechanical hand cut or jig cut joints. That said if the 700 can save me some time I do not have to do all hand-cut joints. I like to be able to break down the tables so I use wedges or pins I can knock out. It is a large enough cost that I need to be sure I am buying something I will use. Thanks for the help.
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9998
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2022, 08:39 AM »
Pull the pin on the DF 700 and give it a good workout for 30 days, nothing to lose there.  [smile]

I used biscuits for years but once I purchased & used the DF 500, the biscuit jointer went down the road within a couple of days. Good riddance...like your experience, the biscuits were more work than they were worth. At the time that's the best that was offered, but time has moved on.

Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2022, 09:12 AM »
The funny thing is the biscuit joiner worked great for years until I needed more biscuits. I can't find a decent biscuit anywhere and maybe the joiner is getting some slop making the hole wider. But it's gone already A novelty I hope I can share with grandkids someday, hey look at this silly thing we used to use unless I scrape it for the motor, there are always uses for a solid motor. Now I just use chisels and routers to make what I want. Will this process be faster once I figure it out? I have never used the 30 return in this case that might be the best choice. Thanks for reminding me. My local store has one and only one. I won't be able to get there until Thursday and if it is still there I will consider it a sign if not I'll pass. When I can't make up my mind I leave it to fate or the luck of the draw.
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2022, 03:26 PM »
Thanks, everyone. I went in for it today but the DF700 sold before I got there. So they are going to put the next one that comes in on hold and I did tell them I wanted the domino systainer with it. Is the Connector systainer worth getting? I have never liked the knock-down stuff in the boxed desks and such that we get at local stores but I am guessing Festools is probably a much higher quality? But I don't know that let me know what you think if you have the time. On a bright note they did have the pl850 so I now have the planer for a project I am starting. I'll share in the projects area once it gets going. Thanks again!
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Offline Jim_in_PA

  • Posts: 268
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2022, 05:05 PM »
Both size of the Connector system are very worthy for anything knock down or that needs to be final assembled on-site due to size or clearances. Festool did a really good job designing both sizes for sure. That said, don't buy those things until you have an actual application for them.
----
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Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2022, 05:59 PM »
Thanks! I'll pass on those for now any current big project is in my own home so everything I need is already here for constructing bar tops and tables.
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2022, 06:16 PM »
I did essentially the same, but not voluntarily. I had a DeWalt biscuit joiner for years, but as soon as I got the DF500 it just sat in the case totally abandoned. It was destroyed in a fire, thus the involuntary part, and I didn't see the need to replace it. The DF500 was one of the first things replaced.
If I absolutely had to cut biscuit slots, I could put the regular blade into the Lamello Zeta. I do have one, but never used it. I haven't used any of the Festool connectors because of the Zeta too.
I have seen them in use, but never done it myself.
I have thought about getting a DF700 for years, but just never pulled the trigger. Apparently I don't actually need one? I'd still like to have it though, I'm close enough to retiring that I may never do it.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation
MFT clamps set
Installers set
Centrotech organizer set

Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 276
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2022, 07:14 PM »
I had the 500, but sold it to buy the 700 - it's a much better tool in every way, except weight. But, you get used to it very quickly. I have the Seneca plate and cutter adapter, so I can use the 6mm cutter for exposed domino joints on drawer boxes.
I still find biscuits to be very handy.
I use a Mafell doweller for cabinet work.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3885
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2022, 07:34 AM »
I find there are two types of tool buyers. One type buys a tool when he/she has an immediate need and cannot do the job without that tool. The second type, a new tool they can imagine a need for somewhere in the future and places an immediate order. The second type cruises the woodworking shows and stores just to look and often returns with a treasure.
Birdhunter

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2022, 08:35 AM »
I had the 500, but sold it to buy the 700 - it's a much better tool in every way, except weight.

 ...

I use a Mafell doweller for cabinet work.
The DF500 is a cabinet maker's tool.

So your choice there was not really DF500 vs. DF700 but it was DF500 versus Maffel DD40.

A completely different discussion and - for a pro - it makes a lot of sense to lean on the DD40 between the two for bulk work and add DF700 to tag along where the DD40 cannot be used.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2022, 08:53 AM »
I find there are two types of tool buyers. One type buys a tool when he/she has an immediate need and cannot do the job without that tool. The second type, a new tool they can imagine a need for somewhere in the future and places an immediate order. The second type cruises the woodworking shows and stores just to look and often returns with a treasure.

Quilty as charged for both!
My usual scenario is to start a project get tired of doing the same thing over and over and look for a faster way, find it in a new tool only to find it isn't there and I have to order and by the time I get it I waded through the slow old process, but its there for the next time.

I find I still hesitate to pull the trigger on an expensive tool but I am also disappointed it wasn't there. I doubt I will get anything I was going to use it for done before it arrives so I will use it soon but sadly that's because I found some 18" floor trusses flexing when a person walks across that section of floor. There were water leaks so now flooring comes out to inspect the subfloor then fix or tackle the trusses themselves, most likely a combination of both. The original contractor installed a broken one and scabbed a 2x4 8" long along the broken part. I hate it when people take the easy way out on a new build now 14 years later it's that much more of a pain. I digress sorry.

I am anxious for the store to get the 700 that says something!
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1498
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2022, 10:03 AM »
The second type, a new tool they can imagine a need for somewhere in the future and places an immediate order. The second type cruises the woodworking shows and stores just to look and often returns with a treasure.

Well, this is the Festool Owner's Group, after all, not the Festool User's Group.   [cool]

Offline sawdustinmyshoes

  • Posts: 113
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2022, 11:31 AM »
I’ve considered the 700 but have never felt shorted with the 500, even on larger pieces.  I’ve used the 500 for all the joinery on larger pieces as well as chairs.  I just double them when appropriate.  The trestle table is 6’ in length and assembled with all 10mm tenons.  The chairs are a mix of all tenon sizes, but mostly 10mm for the seat rails.  Plunge depth is a limiting factor compared to the 700.  But I haven’t experienced any issues with the chairs, and I’ve had diners that weighed 200+ (90kg). I’ve also had a chair that has had near daily use of 10+ years with no issues (the finished chair in the one in-process photo).  That said, I’m currently building a round table with 6/4 and 8/4 ash using 10mm and am ready to build another set of accompanying chairs using the same joinery.  I’m considering buying the 10mm tenon stock in extended lengths and cutting to size, allowing me to gain that extra 3mm of depth that the plunge mechanism of the 500 provides for (28mm vs 25mm for the stock tenon sizes of 10 x 50 mm). 

Although the 700 does have features that I would like, it is just to heavy/bulky for me compared to the 500, and I’m not getting any younger.  I’ve used the 500 in many odd ways of holding that I doubt I could with the 700.  Good luck with whatever you choose.

Online ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2022, 11:57 AM »
Snip. Plunge depth is a limiting factor compared to the 700.  Snip.

I faced the same dilemma about the depth when I built a set of 6 chairs. To err on the safe side, I wanted to use 10x 80 (shop-made) tenons instead of 10x50 for one particular joint in each chair. My solution was to use a simple drilling guide/10mm drill bit, and make the 10x50 mortises deeper:



So far, out of all the domino projects I've done (about two dozen of them), I've used the poor man's DF700 twice.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 12:20 PM by ChuckS »

Offline sawdustinmyshoes

  • Posts: 113
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2022, 02:36 PM »
Snip. Plunge depth is a limiting factor compared to the 700.  Snip.

I faced the same dilemma about the depth when I built a set of 6 chairs. To err on the safe side, I wanted to use 10x 80 (shop-made) tenons instead of 10x50 for one particular joint in each chair. My solution was to use a simple drilling guide/10mm drill bit, and make the 10x50 mortises deeper:

(Attachment Link)

So far, out of all the domino projects I've done (about two dozen of them), I've used the poor man's DF700 twice.

Thanks, Chuck!  That's a great idea.

Online woodferret

  • Posts: 183
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2022, 05:07 PM »
I heard trusses and DF700 and straight up went Nope.

Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2022, 05:57 PM »
I heard trusses and DF700 and straight up went Nope.

Don't worry I am not using a DF700 to repair floor trusses. No, that is what got in my way of building out a semi-midevil kitchen project which I will use the DF700 on! Apologies for the confusion.
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Online woodferret

  • Posts: 183
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2022, 07:32 PM »
Ah, that's comforting to hear.  As for real old skool kitchens now it makes sense why you went with the DF700.

Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 276
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2022, 07:53 PM »
I had the 500, but sold it to buy the 700 - it's a much better tool in every way, except weight.

 ...

I use a Mafell doweller for cabinet work.
The DF500 is a cabinet maker's tool.

So your choice there was not really DF500 vs. DF700 but it was DF500 versus Maffel DD40.

A completely different discussion and - for a pro - it makes a lot of sense to lean on the DD40 between the two for bulk work and add DF700 to tag along where the DD40 cannot be used.

Still doesn't change the fact (for me) that the 700 is a far better engineered tool. Easier to plunge, MUCH better locating pins, better fence system, on/off switch in a better location, top handle, etc, etc. It's a shame it's so expensive. I don't mind the weight, but when you pick up the Mafell or Lamello, you realise how much weight you've been slinging around!
For cabinet work only, the 500 is an 'ok' choice, but for general wood joining it's fine, just not as good as the 700 [smile]

Offline bullseye

  • Posts: 4
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2022, 07:57 PM »
The second type, a new tool they can imagine a need for somewhere in the future and places an immediate order.

I feel attacked!   [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

Just bought a P1CC which I won't need until later in the year. But I needed it to grace my garage as soon as possible!


I faced the same dilemma about the depth when I built a set of 6 chairs. To err on the safe side, I wanted to use 10x 80 (shop-made) tenons instead of 10x50 for one particular joint in each chair. My solution was to use a simple drilling guide/10mm drill bit, and make the 10x50 mortises deeper:

So far, out of all the domino projects I've done (about two dozen of them), I've used the poor man's DF700 twice.

I'd had an idea of using a router to do a similar thing of extending the depth. Anyone tried that?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 08:01 PM by bullseye »

Online woodferret

  • Posts: 183
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2022, 08:55 PM »
I'd had an idea of using a router to do a similar thing of extending the depth. Anyone tried that?

I contemplated that once too but you'd need a stubby mortise bit with bearing and you'd get at most another 28mm.  I didn't go through with it as i need the 70mm depth.  Its also got issues if your mortise is on the end of a long beam, taller than a bench height.  At this point, we're deadly close to making a custom horizontal bore jig for a 1/2 plunge router ;)

Online ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2022, 09:06 PM »
Snip.
I'd had an idea of using a router to do a similar thing of extending the depth. Anyone tried that?

If a drill bit with a guide can deepen Domino mortises, I see no reason why it can't be done with a router. I'd start with something like this:



All that's needed is a plunge router with a fence or a guide and two stops to control the travel.

Needless to say, if one plans to do projects that require the DF700 most of the time, one should get a DF700, not a DF500 in the same vein that the DF500 should be the choice if the DF700's drilling capacity is not needed for the majority of projects to be undertaken.

Offline Ebuwan

  • Posts: 120
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2022, 10:07 AM »
I have both.

I did a full kitchen cabinet build last year, using the domino method that Sedge shows in videos, and at that time i did NOT have the 500.

I used the Seneca adapter with the 700 to get 5mm and 6mm domino mortises.

Lets just say, the 700 does the job, but after a few panels, and having to switch between holding vertical, horizontal over and over, MAN the 700 gets heavy. I'm not old and not small either.

I bought the 500 a couple months later, and I wish I had it for the cabinet build, my elbow would have thanked me. As mentioned earlier in this thread, i use the 500 way more now that I have it, but when you need the 700 ya need the 700 (tables, beds, etc).

Online ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2022, 10:40 AM »
If Festool released a DF600 covering tenon sizes from 6mm to 10mm (x80mm), I'd sell my DF500 (weight: 7 lb) and get it, assuming its weight being 7 to 8 lb or so (DF700 is 11.4 lb).
« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 10:43 AM by ChuckS »

Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2022, 10:52 AM »
I have both.

I did a full kitchen cabinet build last year, using the domino method that Sedge shows in videos, and at that time i did NOT have the 500.

I used the Seneca adapter with the 700 to get 5mm and 6mm domino mortises.

Lets just say, the 700 does the job, but after a few panels, and having to switch between holding vertical, horizontal over and over, MAN the 700 gets heavy. I'm not old and not small either.

I bought the 500 a couple months later, and I wish I had it for the cabinet build, my elbow would have thanked me. As mentioned earlier in this thread, i use the 500 way more now that I have it, but when you need the 700 ya need the 700 (tables, beds, etc).

Yep I agree, I am so fed up with normal cabinets that I convinced my wife, this is for my own home, That I'm redoing everything in the house with Cherry. It is all ruff sawn 4/4 up to 9/4. These will be similar to what a person might see in a D&D game video. Big, strong, and capable of holding up the roof in a pinch! One section will actually be a wall in front of a pantry with a unit that swings in. I have yet to work that out and is a topic for another thread. I think in my case the DF700 will be the correct choice. I hope some of the DR's I know will want some custom work when they see these!
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2022, 01:27 PM »
Picked up the DF 700 today. It doesn't seem as unwieldy as it was made out to be. Seems very solid and well built. But between the domino box and the DF box it was pushing what I am currently allowed to carry so I won't be using it for a couple more weeks.
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 131
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2022, 08:48 PM »
Picked up the DF 700 today. It doesn't seem as unwieldy as it was made out to be. Seems very solid and well built. But between the domino box and the DF box it was pushing what I am currently allowed to carry so I won't be using it for a couple more weeks.

Congrats on the new baby! I actually really like the DF700 and find it easier to manage than the 500. For me it gives a more stable hold and action, whereas the 500 kinda feels like pushing a biscuit joiner/grinder.

Absolutely love them both, but I definitely prefer using the 700 over the 500.

Offline jcrowe1950

  • Festool Dealer Affiliate
  • *
  • Posts: 223
    • Woodcraft Chattanooga, TN
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2022, 10:22 PM »
Picked up the DF 700 today. It doesn't seem as unwieldy as it was made out to be. Seems very solid and well built. But between the domino box and the DF box it was pushing what I am currently allowed to carry so I won't be using it for a couple more weeks.

    I think this may have been discussed earlier but the D500 was the first Domino and lessons were learned when designing the D700. The barrel grip nature of the D500 can tempt the user to grab the tool like a jigsaw, but that can introduce upward or downward tilt, which is suboptimal. The D700 is more "ergonomically" correct in that the D handle becomes an extension of the user's lower arm and it makes optimal plunging easier. I agree with the individual who commented on the pins on the D700 being remarkably useful. Further, with the D700, the extra wide setting was eliminated because mostly nobody ever used it. It was tight + 10mm....whereas the loose setting is tight + 6mm. However, if one owns both, the weight of the D500 makes it a great choice for those applications where it is most useful....cabinets and drawers for sure. One other quick subject, I have had a chance to play with the D14 knockdown connectors and they are massively impressive.....limited applicability but boy are they strong....
Festool Specialist at Woodcraft, Chattanooga, TN

Latest Festool purchase...Rotex 150.

Online ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2022, 10:33 PM »

Snip.  Further, with the D700, the extra wide setting was eliminated because mostly nobody ever used it.
Snip.

The DF700's heavier weight, considered a negative by some, has one positive ring to it: When mortising in the vertical position, the machine doesn't move as easily as the DF500.

Not too many people use the extra wide setting on the DF500, because not too many are aware of its good uses. See some examples here: https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/do-you-use-4mm-slots-or-4mm-dominoes-another-use-of-4mm-domino-slots/

Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2022, 09:07 PM »
thanks @luvmytoolz I am a bit disappointed as I got stuck working again after several weeks of laying low. So this weekend I hope I will be productive with the 700. Seriously can't wait to start playing with it. All my limited living restrictions are gone in two more days and I can ease back into life! My shop keeps calling me!

Guys and Gals it is nice to see those who prefer it. I was only on the fence while I learned the uses and for what I am doing lately and moving forward it just made more sense. I am tossed up on adding the adapter for smaller dominos or when the time comes adding the 500. That will have to wait for awhile. I need this to pay for itself first!
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

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Offline jhuh63tango

  • Posts: 75
    • J's Tidbits
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2022, 01:35 PM »
But for me - the DF700 is a compliment to the DF500. Not an upgrade.

+1  [big grin]
+1  [big grin] [big grin]

Offline smorgasbord

  • Posts: 118
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2022, 04:16 PM »
If Festool released a DF600 covering tenon sizes from 6mm to 10mm (x80mm), I'd sell my DF500 (weight: 7 lb) and get it, assuming its weight being 7 to 8 lb or so (DF700 is 11.4 lb).

Yeah, when I saw the numbering scheme that Festool was using my first thought was that they were allowing for (not necessarily planning for) an in-between tool.

For me, it's kind of mechanics socket sets. I mostly grab my ⅜" set that goes from 6mm to 19mm, but there are times I want either the ¼" set (5mm to 15mm) or the ½" set (10mm to 24mm) instead. And even though the ¼" set only goes two sizes smaller than the ⅜" (5.5mm and 5mm), the shallower sockets and shorter/lighter ratchet make a difference sometimes. And same for the ½" set - sometimes you need that extra leverage/beefiness.

Now, if I could afford or were somehow restricted to having just one set, I'd naturally choose the ⅜" since it would cover probably 90+% of what I do, and there are adapters to run other sockets.

What Festool has done is give us the equivalent of ¼" socket set and a ½" socket set. That makes it hard to choose when you can only have one.

What I think is going to be interesting is that when the patents expire and DeWalt or Bosch or Mafell can sell domino mortise making machines, what size(s) will they choose?  For instance, a middle-sized tool that can go down to 6mm and up to 12mm might be the sweet spot, even if plunge depth were restricted to 50mm or even 40mm. Of course, different woodworkers may have different sweet spots.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2022, 04:51 PM »
...
I expect Festool to make a "refresh" of the DF500 either some time after competition comes with their versions. To get some more edge on the competition, possibly incorporating some addl. patented features for added value.

Either way, a DF500 gen 2 is -IMO- on the cards in the next 5 years or so.

DF700 is here to stay the same way the TS75 stood with us all those years while we are on a 3rd gen TS55. Too low-volume to warrant a refresh anytime soon.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 131
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2022, 09:16 PM »
...
DF700 is here to stay the same way the TS75 stood with us all those years while we are on a 3rd gen TS55. Too low-volume to warrant a refresh anytime soon.

I'd be curious on the sales stats for the DF700 (and the DF500), I suspect they may be a lot higher than most people would think. Hugely popular tool.

Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2022, 10:44 PM »
The equipment store I buy at had one for a couple months then I went on to get it and it was gone. They ordered a couple more and I got one and the other was gone in a couple of days. I think the TS75 is higher as well. They got three in and they were all gone in a couple of weeks, of course just before I went in for one!
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 343
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2022, 12:00 AM »
If Festool released a DF600 covering tenon sizes from 6mm to 10mm (x80mm), I'd sell my DF500 (weight: 7 lb) and get it, assuming its weight being 7 to 8 lb or so (DF700 is 11.4 lb).

Yeah, when I saw the numbering scheme that Festool was using my first thought was that they were allowing for (not necessarily planning for) an in-between tool.

For me, it's kind of mechanics socket sets. I mostly grab my ⅜" set that goes from 6mm to 19mm, but there are times I want either the ¼" set (5mm to 15mm) or the ½" set (10mm to 24mm) instead. And even though the ¼" set only goes two sizes smaller than the ⅜" (5.5mm and 5mm), the shallower sockets and shorter/lighter ratchet make a difference sometimes. And same for the ½" set - sometimes you need that extra leverage/beefiness.

Now, if I could afford or were somehow restricted to having just one set, I'd naturally choose the ⅜" since it would cover probably 90+% of what I do, and there are adapters to run other sockets.

What Festool has done is give us the equivalent of ¼" socket set and a ½" socket set. That makes it hard to choose when you can only have one.

What I think is going to be interesting is that when the patents expire and DeWalt or Bosch or Mafell can sell domino mortise making machines, what size(s) will they choose?  For instance, a middle-sized tool that can go down to 6mm and up to 12mm might be the sweet spot, even if plunge depth were restricted to 50mm or even 40mm. Of course, different woodworkers may have different sweet spots.

I like your socket set analogy.  Personally, I use the 1/4" socket the most.  Most of the bolts I work on are small.  And the small 1/4" ratchet is much easier to maneuver.  I of course also have 3/8" and 1/2" sockets too.  1/2" is rarely rarely rarely ever used.  I have a lot of 1/2" sockets but many have never ever touched a bolt head.  As for an intermediate Domino, I think a 6-12mm and 40 or 50mm depth would be a great intermediate tool.  Cover the best of both Dominoes.  6mm would work OK on 1/2" thick wood.  40 or 50mm depth mortises would make strong enough tables or doors.  Unless you are making a building, you don't need 70mm depth mortises of the 700.  A Domino 600 with 1/4" to 1/2" thick tenons (6-12mm) and 1 5/8" or 2" long tenons (40 or 50mm) would be the sweet spot for loose tenons.

Can't wait until Makita, Bosch, Milwaukee, Dewalt come out with a Domino 600 in a couple years!!!!!!!!!

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 131
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2022, 12:13 AM »
Given the DF700 can do 8-14mm slots from 0mm to 70mm deep depending on the cutter, the only thing missing is the ability to do 4, 5, and 6mm slots, so a Seneca adaptor would be the best option to cover all bases if you really wanted the option but didn't want to spring for 2 machines, a proper Festool adaptor would be good, but I think as they'd be cutting their own lunch that one's unlikely.

I recently did some testing with my 500 and 700, and measured the slot widths as per below:
 
DF500    N             M            W
4mm      16.5        21.5        25
5mm      19           24           28.5
6mm      20           25.5        29.5
8mm      22           27           31.5
10mm   24           29           33.5

DF700    N             W
8mm      21.5        24.5
10mm   23.5        26.5
12mm   25.5        28.5
14mm   27.5        30.5

I plan on making some extra wide dominos in various sizes, as sometimes that would be quite handy as opposed to extra slots which may not always be practical. So it would be nice if the 700 had the same 3rd width option as the 500, which would bring the 14mm slot to 40mm wide for example.

Online ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #68 on: September 05, 2022, 01:43 AM »
For me, there has never been an issue of width or thickness with the DF500, but depth. I could always make mortises of whatever width/thickness by overlapping the cuts, and then use shop-made tenons of the desired width and thickness. But a simpler solution is to use double tenons or twin tenons depending on the orientation, or both if applicable.

So if a DF600 could not cut much deeper mortises than the DF500 already does, its added value would be minimal to me, and there would be no point for me to get it. 50mm deep is just 25mm on each mating side; even adding 10mm to the final depth (30mm on each side) wouldn't be good enough for my kind of needs.

So max 65mm/70mm milling depth for the DF600...or else.

Edit: 70mm refers to the total depth.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2022, 10:30 AM by ChuckS »

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #69 on: September 05, 2022, 08:50 AM »
For me, there has never been an issue of width with the DF500, but depth. I could always make mortises of whatever width by overlapping the cuts, and then use shop-made tenons of the desired width. But a simpler solution is to use double tenons or twin tenons depending on the orientation.

So if a DF600 could not cut much deeper mortises than the DF500 already does, its added value would be minimal to me, and there would be no point for me to get it. 50mm deep is just 25mm on each mating side; even adding 10mm to the final depth (30mm on each side) wouldn't be good enough for my kind of needs.

So max 65mm/70mm milling depth for the DF600...or else.

Agreed, at least mostly. I would be happy with 50mm.

It would actually be kind of cool see them make a bigger bit for the DF700 too, maybe 16mm?

I like the socket set analogy too.  I have gotten along with my minimal 3/8" drive set in the cabinet shop for a couple of years. I recently upgraded to the Festool socket and driver set. Coincidentally enough, it is all 1/4" and 1/2" drive. Same thing, hit both ends and let the overlap be, rather than a middle set.
As it was, I needed extremes both ways. I have been working on an old Whitney 177 table saw and required sockets larger than the 22mm I had, plus the longer ratchet. The 3/8" set has always been a bit overkill for the smaller end.

The equipment store I buy at had one for a couple months then I went on to get it and it was gone. They ordered a couple more and I got one and the other was gone in a couple of days. I think the TS75 is higher as well. They got three in and they were all gone in a couple of weeks, of course just before I went in for one!

I think you are right, to some degree anyway. I would imagine they sell more of the DF700 than most would think, but some of that has been driven by the recent shortages? TS75 and Vac Sys, too.
When things get perceived as "hard to get", people jump on all of the stock available sooner than they would have. This makes it worse.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
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CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
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Online ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2022, 10:15 AM »
Snip.

I recently did some testing with my 500 and 700, and measured the slot widths as per below:
 
DF500    N             M            W
4mm      16.5        21.5        25
5mm      19           24           28.5
6mm      20           25.5        29.5
8mm      22           27           31.5
10mm   24           29           33.5

Snip.

Some readings are slightly different from what is given in the user manual (add cutter's size to table):


Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #71 on: September 05, 2022, 10:24 AM »
...
I like the socket set analogy too.  I have gotten along with my minimal 3/8" drive set in the cabinet shop for a couple of years. I recently upgraded to the Festool socket and driver set. Coincidentally enough, it is all 1/4" and 1/2" drive. Same thing, hit both ends and let the overlap be, rather than a middle set.
As it was, I needed extremes both ways. I have been working on an old Whitney 177 table saw and required sockets larger than the 22mm I had, plus the longer ratchet. The 3/8" set has always been a bit overkill for the smaller end.
...
I think this has to do with the 1/4" set being in the same class as 1/4" hex bits, so is kinda an extension of that system.

E.g. I almost never use 1/4" ratchets yet I use the sockets widely. Either with a "screwdriver" handle or with a drill driver while my 1/4" ratchets collect dust.

For the 1/2", I pull it out only for heavy work, and then 1/2" is preferable to 3/8. As for "single set", well, I have 1/2" sockets all the way from 8mm to 40mm or so.

If my "main" set was 3/8, I would still need a 1/2" set as 3/8" is just too weak for the heavy work. Got one old 3/8" chinese set somewhere, not remember ever using it.

The whole 3/8" world is to me The Professional's space, where the reduced weight is worth it for the main set. And a secondary heavy 1/2" on hand is a non-concern.


====
I believe with the DF series it is the same. A "middle" option would be the tool of choice for Pros who KNOW their needs and can handle the very-small as well as very-big tasks that it could not handle via other means.

Still not sure it makes sense - what DF500 lacks is depth, and I am not sure they could achieve, say, 50mm depth without making the tool bulkier. I see more likely Festool releasing 6mm cutters for the DF700. We need to remember that even with the exclusivity, the DF series market is not that big to sustain three tools.

What would be practical, though, is a DF500 gen 2 that can handle, say, 40mm depth. Still keeping it far-enough from a DF700 but improving slightly to better cover the middle ground.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2022, 10:29 AM by mino »
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Online ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2022, 10:41 AM »

Snip.
Still not sure it makes sense - what DF500 lacks is depth, and I am not sure they could achieve, say, 50mm depth without making the tool bulkier.

Snip..]
I don't expect Festool to release another DF given the fact that the patent is to expire in a couple years. I'm pinning my hope on other manufacturers which may see a gap, and after 2024 produce a clone joiner that is not just an exact copy of the DF500 in terms of mortising capacity.

Look at Bosch's finger-saving saw that isn't an exact copy of SawStop.

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 343
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #73 on: September 05, 2022, 04:01 PM »
For me, there has never been an issue of width or thickness with the DF500, but depth. I could always make mortises of whatever width/thickness by overlapping the cuts, and then use shop-made tenons of the desired width and thickness. But a simpler solution is to use double tenons or twin tenons depending on the orientation, or both if applicable.

So if a DF600 could not cut much deeper mortises than the DF500 already does, its added value would be minimal to me, and there would be no point for me to get it. 50mm deep is just 25mm on each mating side; even adding 10mm to the final depth (30mm on each side) wouldn't be good enough for my kind of needs.

So max 65mm/70mm milling depth for the DF600...or else.

Edit: 70mm refers to the total depth.

The current DF500 cuts 28mm depth in each piece of wood.  56mm total depth.  Thus maximum 50mm Domino loose tenons.  The 500 gives you a little slop for the extra glue at the bottom of the mortise.
The current DF700 cuts 70mm depth in each piece of wood.  140mm total depth.  Thus maximum 140mm Domino loose tenons.

Currently Festool sells the 8mm Domino loose tenons in 40, 50, 80, 100mm total lengths.
Currently Festool sells the 10mm Domino loose tenons in 50, 80, 100mm total lengths.
The 12 and 14mm Dominoes come in 100 and 140mm total lengths.  And the 14 also comes in 75mm total length too.  Odd.
I am ignoring the 750mm lengths of tenon stock that you can cut to any length you want.  Only looking at ready to use Domino lengths.

So Festool is already making the Dominoes to handle a medium machine that can cut 40 or 50mm depth cuts.  Thus total loose tenons of 80 or 100mm.

You said "even adding 10mm to the final depth (30mm on each side) wouldn't be good enough for my kind of needs."
The hypothesis stated previously was a medium Domino cutting 40 or 50mm depths.  Totals of 80 or 100mm.  Currently the DF500 cuts depth of 28mm for total Domino length of 50mm.  The medium Dominoes suggested previously would add an extra 12 or 22mm of depth.  Total lengths would increase from 50mm Domino on the DF500 to 80 or 100mm on the imagined medium Domino.  You would go from a 1 inch (25mm) Domino in each piece of wood to a 1 5/8" (40mm) or 2" (50mm) Domino in each piece of wood.  Right in the middle of the 70mm (2.75") DF700 and the 50mm (1") DF500.

Will Festool do this medium Domino?  Probably not since they already have both extremes covered with the 500 and 700.  But it sure seems like a perfect sweet spot for Makita, Bosch, Dewalt, Milwaukee when the patents expire.

Offline smorgasbord

  • Posts: 118
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2022, 07:44 PM »
Given the DF700 can do 8-14mm slots from 0mm to 70mm deep depending on the cutter, the only thing missing is the ability to do 4, 5, and 6mm slots, so a Seneca adaptor would be the best option to cover all bases if you really wanted the option but didn't want to spring for 2 machines, a proper Festool adaptor would be good, but I think as they'd be cutting their own lunch that one's unlikely.

I own the DF700 and the Seneca adapter. I bought both the DF500 and DF700 domino sets, so that gave me a full set of cutters (actually some overlap).

Note that the RPMs of the DF500 and DF700 are different. The DF700 rotates more slowly, which makes sense considering it's turning larger diameter bits. So when you mount the smaller diameter cutters on the DF700, you should take the plunge more slowly than you would otherwise.

I do agree that doubling up dominos can help with strength, but I also believe that, like you would do with true mortise and tenon joints, for real strength you often want to do deeper than the DF500 can do, especially if you're using 8mm or 10mm dominos. For most of my work, that's a real advantage for the DF700, which is why, again, I think a DF600 that didn't support the 4mm or 5mm sizes but add the 12mm, and could plunge 50mm deep would be great. Maybe some caveat about not plunging 50mm deep with the 6mm bit, or design the bit with some kind of depth stop at 20mm.


Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2393
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2022, 03:28 PM »
I bought my 500 first as it was the only size available, but actually kept running into wanting a larger version of it over the years. Then the 700 arrived. I bought it, and while yes, it would not be fun to have to do thin material with it all the time, it sure is nice to have its different ergonomics and larger capacity of cutting and depth.
Regarding any Domino 500 Version 2.0, it will be interesting to see what is shown whenever it finally arrives in the coming years.
 About the only thing I don't like on my 500 is the spring loaded alignment tabs/'fingers'. I'd like to be able to lock them out at times when doing a longish mortise. I've taped them closed a few times with Painters tape, so there's that method. [scratch chin]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Online ChuckS

  • Posts: 3801
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2022, 03:44 PM »
You can lock the paddles away with an Allen key. The user manual covers that step.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 03:48 PM by ChuckS »

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2393
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #77 on: September 20, 2022, 03:44 PM »
You can lock the paddles away with an Allen key. The user manual covers that step.
(Attachment Link)
I missed that step. Thanks for the picture and info!!!
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline smorgasbord

  • Posts: 118
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2022, 05:55 PM »
Found this new video on YouTube:


If you can ignore the crude jokes, it actually presents a good case for which one to get.

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 131
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2022, 09:48 PM »
I think the case is to get both! ;-)

Seriously though, how impressive is the chair at the end?

Offline Bertotti

  • Posts: 368
Re: DF700 vs. DF500
« Reply #80 on: Today at 01:39 AM »
Found this new video on YouTube:


If you can ignore the crude jokes, it actually presents a good case for which one to get.

That was hilarious! But also quite informative and that chair is very cool!
I want to populate SD with trees because I miss the forests of the river bottoms.