Lets keep the international mud slinging out of this, please.

Seth

Quote from: JimD on September 24, 2020, 08:04 PM

I view the push to convert to metric the rest of the world trying to push the U. S. around.  I like the fact we haven't caved.  I also would not try and convince others that want to use metric that it is wrong to do so.  It is arbitrary.  Both systems work.

The reality is that aside from average folks and, perhaps the building trades, US industry, pharma and pretty much everything else went metric a long time ago. But I agree that each person should use the system they prefer in their own personal endeavors.

The problem with letting people do what ever is it holds the rest of us back. Those who just want to be metric are denied by hold out mentality.  It also just hurts us all around because so much caters to those who won't change.  Yes, if people just want to have their inches at home, that would fine.  But roadways need to be in metric, the weather forecast, building materials, all of it.

The continued allowance of customary units gets folks killed, this is heavily seen in medical, where people get overdosed all the time. It should be all metric, but since some people refuse to use metric, and do conversions, people get killed.  The people in these fields should not be allowed to do anything but metric.

Link

Link

So much of this is what you see brought up by folks like myself, things are in metric, but then folks change it to customary at the end to be "helpful" or because that's "what the person is used to".   Stuff like this is all around.

Do you want your kid, grandchild, or yourself killed because folks in the hospital are comfortable in customary units so let them be them?  If people don't use metric in their personal lives, it's less likely they will use it in there professional lives, and now this creates serious problems.

Black & Decker sold workmates in Europe with a "conversion" table on it... with wrong values.

Stanly sold bandmeasures with the length of the body imprinted only in inches. I converted it to metric, measured the tape measure body... and it was off too.

Quote from: Jim_in_PA on September 25, 2020, 07:45 PM

Quote from: JimD on September 24, 2020, 08:04 PM

I view the push to convert to metric the rest of the world trying to push the U. S. around.  I like the fact we haven't caved.  I also would not try and convince others that want to use metric that it is wrong to do so.  It is arbitrary.  Both systems work.

The reality is that aside from average folks and, perhaps the building trades, US industry, pharma and pretty much everything else went metric a long time ago. But I agree that each person should use the system they prefer in their own personal endeavors.

The problem with letting people do what ever is it holds the rest of us back. Those who just want to be metric are denied by hold out mentality.  It also just hurts us all around because so much caters to those who won't change.  Yes, if people just want to have their inches at home, that would fine.  But roadways need to be in metric, the weather forecast, building materials, all of it.

The continued allowance of customary units gets folks killed, this is heavily seen in medical, where people get overdosed all the time. It should be all metric, but since some people refuse to use metric, and do conversions, people get killed.  The people in these fields should not be allowed to do anything but metric.

Link

Link

So much of this is what you see brought up by folks like myself, things are in metric, but then folks change it to customary at the end to be "helpful" or because that's "what the person is used to".   Stuff like this is all around.

Do you want your kid, grandchild, or yourself killed because folks in the hospital are comfortable in customary units so let them be them?  If people don't use metric in their personal lives, it's less likely they will use it in there professional lives, and now this creates serious problems.

Don't forget about the Gimli Glider, an airliner that crash-landed due to fuel shortage because someone pumped xx pounds instead of xx kg's into it.

The funny thing is that journalists all over the place here can't even convert properly when a news story originated in the US. The Dutch 'pond' was a customary name for 500 grams. The US 'pound' [lbs] is not 500 gram but 453,....... gram.

All these units like 'teaspoons' is just something from online recipes that always end in something that isn't edible.

I am not going to convert to metric.  I avoid tools that require me to use metric but I have a domino and I like it.  I have learned to deal with it's use of metric but I still would prefer it had good old fractional inch cutters, depth scale, and fence position scale. 

There is nothing inherently better or more accurate about metric dimensions.  When I worked it was for a multi national with manufacturing in Europe, the U. S. and Japan.  Our drawings could be printed out in either system.  We had to develop rules about rounding and a few other things but it worked fine.  Parts were exchanged between facilities all the time.  Any implication that metric is somehow better is just wrong.  The choice is arbitrary. 

It is not convenient that I need fractional inch sockets and wrenches AND metric tools but I have both so it isn't a big deal at this point.  But for wood working I work in the dimensions I like but I have steel rules with both systems and dial calipers that switch with a push of the button.  I need the metric meaureing tools when making my own domino tenons but don't often use them for anything else. 

I view the push to convert to metric the rest of the world trying to push the U. S. around.  I like the fact we haven't caved.  I also would not try and convince others that want to use metric that it is wrong to do so.  It is arbitrary.  Both systems work.

The US has already caved. About 60 years ago the inch was defined as being 25.4mm, the yard was defined as being exactly 0.9144 m and the pound was fixed at 0.45359237 kg. So in fact all Imperial is now is a conversion factor on top of metric to confuse things to the maximum and to sell more Allen keys.  And to charge more for US college textbooks I guess.

I suggest we strike a deal; we get busy copying some amendments from your constitution for general adoption here while you implement the metric system; best for everyone 

Then there are tons.  It shouldn't be hard, but in the end, the whole world needs to retire all versions of "ton", as it takes so much work to hope you are all talking the same thing. 

I most of the world ton means only one thing - 1000kg. Most people never even heard about anything else (long ton, short ton, UK ton).

Quote from: DeformedTree on September 26, 2020, 09:19 PM

Then there are tons.  It shouldn't be hard, but in the end, the whole world needs to retire all versions of "ton", as it takes so much work to hope you are all talking the same thing. 

I most of the world ton means only one thing - 1000kg. Most people never even heard about anything else (long ton, short ton, UK ton).

I've never found a good conclusive answer, the biggest issue I see come up is usage of Tonne, people in the US tend to think that is what everyone calls 1000kg, un-aware that for everyone else it's a ton.  But some research implies other places use the word Tonne, but I'm skeptical based on experience.

Quote from: DeformedTree on September 26, 2020, 09:19 PM

Conversion table stuff being wrong is common.  As has been brought up before, the US does not us Imperial System and never has.  The US uses the US System of Customary Units.  Most are the same, but some are not.   This is why Festool calling their US tools with inch labeling is Imperial is just so silly.  They are for the US, but not Customary?  Just shows the sorts of confusion that happens.

There are a couple of countries left that use the imperial measuring system and a few more who understand it and use it in parallel, none of them call it  "Customary" or  "Standard"

Linear measurements are identical in US Customary, US Standard and imperial.

So changing to the word "Customary" to satisfy your desire for conformity to US usage (though is it "Standard") will significantly add confusion to other markets. Not to mention that grey imported items will probably still be imperial or metric, so how does that help?

Because Imperial, either the system or the word is not used in the US.  The only item people are possibly aware of is they may have heard of an imperial gallon and know it's some over sized gallon used in Europe.  Since Festool started labeling North American stuff as Imperial I have seen people here and some other woodworking related places start to use "imperial" but it's not used elsewhere.  If you told someone something is in Imperial, few people in the US would know what you are talking about.  Typically in the US our system is just called "standard" (ironic, yes), or "inch", if you are more automotive focused it it may be referred to as SAE.  Folks won't generally call it Customary, but that is officially the system.   Also you might find folks calling is IPS (inch pound second), but not often.  Using a word not used in a country that you are targeting is just odd. It shows Festool didn't research it very well.  It would have made far more sense for them to just call them "Inch". If they were targeting inch marked tools globally, sure go for imperial, but they were targeting the US, and lumping Canada in with us. Festool stuff only comes from Festool, and any stuff people bring in thru unofficial channels is metric, since it's the only way to get metric Festool now.

Companies label/name things to suite a country. Thus why things like products, or say cars often get different names in different countries either because people in that country won't understand the name, or a conflict, or just doesn't work well.  When you make something for just one country you make sure it works well there. Nissan goes thru the hassle to have a Nissan Qashqui in the whole world including Canada, but call it a Rouge Sport in the US.

Chrysler's are labeled "Imperial", not tools. 

Quote from: DeformedTree on September 26, 2020, 11:09 PM

Quote from: Svar on September 26, 2020, 10:07 PM

Quote from: DeformedTree on September 26, 2020, 09:19 PM

Then there are tons.  It shouldn't be hard, but in the end, the whole world needs to retire all versions of "ton", as it takes so much work to hope you are all talking the same thing. 

I most of the world ton means only one thing - 1000kg. Most people never even heard about anything else (long ton, short ton, UK ton).

I've never found a good conclusive answer, the biggest issue I see come up is usage of Tonne, people in the US tend to think that is what everyone calls 1000kg, un-aware that for everyone else it's a ton.  But some research implies other places use the word Tonne, but I'm skeptical based on experience.

Than this is your lucky day. As an official spokesperson of the metric world, which comprises 95% of the global population, I'm giving you a conclusive answer. Ton means 1000 kg. Obviously it's spelled and pronounced differently in different languages. We are not going to retire this term, which we use all the time, just because US and UK invented several other tons for their internal use and are confused now.

Well having lived through a Dang Metric conversion in the mid 70's I can tell you that a ton for us was 2000lbs. and a tonne was 1000kg. At that time it was not a simple changeover and there was mass confusion and backlash. Exposure to metric was minimal in the school system with most of it in science classes. Today the trades are still taught in standard/imperial measurement at trade school and building materials are bought in the same measurement. While it is believed that because metric is used by more people its better that doesn't mean its better in many individual situations. The bottom line is easy is what you have been brought up with and use constantly. To use both systems you still have to have a brain that understands math well. Understanding fractions and decimal conversion is also key. Only when the system is completely changed to metric that makes sense not just a conversion from standard will the system be its best.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonne#:~:text=The%20tonne%20(%2Ft%CA%8Cn,0.984%20long%20tons%20(UK).

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tonne

Slightly OT

I was born a year before the metric system came in NZ 1969. I remember as a kid in Dad's car with stickers on the dash for KMH lol. Body/ scale  weight was Stone (British influence?) and we always had a pound of butter.

I get where everyone gets use to the system they are familiar with. Funny thing in the metric world, there are 3 measurements I still use imperial and can never change after 52 years - TV sizes, Babies born weight (no problem with weight of children and adults in metric) and persons height (although in the last 3-4 years I'm starting to visualise metric).

After the 3 years reading forums and watching youtube I now know 3/8, 5/8, 1/2, 3/4 inch (I always knew an inch) to metric almost instly . Geez it was hard times until I put a chart up in front of monitor LOL

The bottom line is that there is no "best" system.

I'm all for whatever you are comfortable with. However, a coherent system of units (SI) is not equivalent to a non-coherent one (US customary). And I'm not using "coherent" here is a random adjective, look it up.
If you just measuring cabinets, it doesn't matter (other than you might get good at fractions), but as a consistent system used in every walk of life one is objectively better than the other.
Saying they are equivalent is like saying that Latin numeral system is equivalent to base-ten positional one (Hindu-Arabic). Although I'm sure there was much resistance when Fibonacci popularized the latter in Europe (hey, the Romans ruled the world for 600 years while using their numbers, and they were fine ).

It's not about what an individual is comfortable with. I don't care what folks do on a personal level.  The issue is getting the US metric so that we match the rest of the world and can interchange freely.  Having inch based stuff forced on us for no reason other than some people not wanting to change is the problem. I want to live a life and be able to do things, buy things, etc the same as anyone else in the world. Not be stuck with using stuff I don't want just because a group of people in this country refuse to change.

The medical thing is real. People using the "comfort" excuse is the very problem. If folks can understand the problems here, they never will, and that is the heart of the problem.

Metric is here to stay, even in the US, everything slowly moves that way or has been there for decades.  No, inch based stuff is not "just as good".  Lets just get this done.

I'm not trying to force anyone to use metric in their personal lives.  But the when you leave your house, the world around you needs to be metric like everyplace else on the planet. Plenty of countries have a mix of old and new, the UK is clearly one. But folks there clearly understand when you are doing something in your professional capacity, or government, etc, it's metric.  The US doesn't have to look any further than Canada.   Roadsways are in metric, commerces, etc metric.  But clearly people in their personal lives still talk in feet and inches, etc.

Get that step done, then we can work on phasing out the last of N.A. specific inch base building materials as an example.  Get things like plumbing to be the same as the rest of the world.

I was 'educated' in only metric (SI units in general) as the UK had formally adopted it in 1965 (when I was 9). At school it was SI units everywhere - except amusingly in our carpentry classes! Our teacher was quite old and clearly had no intention of changing.

A few 'imperial' measurements still linger, most common examples......
full sheets of ply etc. They are sold as 1220 by 2440, which is of course the 4'x8' ( a size introduced by the Portland Manufacturing Company in 1905).
sink waste water pipes
plumbing threads
Road distances & speeds, although we do buy fuel in litres.
Wind speeds for some reason, but we have switched to Celsius for temperature.
Screen sizing, especially tv's.

I learnt to also use imperial from my Dad as I helped him around the house. But having learnt metric first - I found, and still do, imperial really difficult to work with!

I think apart from those aged 70+ we mostly think and work metric in the UK, but I don't know how we are going to change the few remaining instances of imperial measurements.

I was studying why my various bench planes feel 'different', and a key factor was in the adjustment sensitivity - WoodRiver (US) use a M6 1mm pitch thread, whilst the Lie Nielsen (US) and Clifton (UK) use 1/4"-20 UNC at 1.27mm pitch.

I drive a 2016 Mustang, which is fully metric, but RHD. To me its signature sound is the V8 firing sequence - of which I believe there are 13 different sequences in use around the world. "Vive la difference"!

"No sane person would do that math in customary units, and you certainly would not risk lives to a lb-mass, lb-force debacle."

I've worked in the aerospace industry for 20 years doing mathematical modeling of flight structures and aerodynamics.  I use Imperial units every day.  I also teach college courses in Vibrations and Dynamics.  I rarely have the students use SI units.  The first day I teach them about consistent mass units, so what you cite above about a "debacle" is silly.  There's too much drama in some of these statements.  It's about knowing what you are doing.  I'm sure somewhere around the world someone is doing similar things that I am doing, but in SI units.  I'm cool with that.

I'm partly amused and partly annoyed with these annual "Metric or Bust" threads.  People make things into way bigger issues than they need to.  Just get a different ruler or get a calculator and make the conversion.

I switch back and forth, depending on the nature of the project.

 - Imperial gets used for things which require human proportions which I'm trying to work out and with and for anything which requires division into thirds, sixths, twelfths and so forth --- if things get finely detailed I'll break out a PostScript ruler which has 72 PostScript points per inch

 - metric gets used for toolpaths on my CNC, and anything where measuring is unlikely to align with Imperial units

I hate working with metric for publishing --- I'd give my interest in heck for a nickel every time I've gotten a template from Europe in metric which had the columns and gutter measurements so that a two column ad width didn't equal 2 columns + gutter width, consequence of not being able to divide things neatly into measures other than tenths.

The industry I use to work in is nuclear power.  The most common fuel rod diameter in the world is 0.374 inches which is 9.5mm.  All our U. S. customers talked in inches and our European and Asian customers talked mm.  We used fuel tubes from a European supplier and a U. S. supplier interchangably.  We exchanged a lot of other parts too.  When I say the units of measure are interchangable I am speaking in part on that experience.  The consequences of significant errors could hardly be bigger than with nuclear power.  There have been zero significant issues traced to units of measure (and unlike most industries, any error gets a root cause investigation).

All you are saying when you call U. S. standard measurements incoherent is that you find them illogical.  I wouldn't use them either if that was true in my case.  But you saying they are illogical (to you) doesn't affect my opinion, I prefer them.

Another reason everything has not changed is the lack of sufficient benefit to justify the cost.  Drain lines for tubs are 2 inch and sinks and showers are 1.5 inches.  Changing to metric means changing a bunch of building codes and dies to make the plastic tubing and fittings.    When you are done, what benefit do you get to justify the cost?  European suppliers can more easily supply?  That obviously isn't getting us there.  The same thing is true for plywood sheet sizes and lumber sizing.  It could be changed but where is the benefit to justify the cost?

I don't think anyone is talking about going back to legacy systems and re-designing them.  It's well known that many fields that have systems in use that span decades back aren't going to change legacy systems (and for good reason).  Thus why aerospace hardware is still heavily inch, defense hardware same, with newer stuff metric.  Nuclear power is another good example.

What is the point is get everyone switched over, so new stuff going forward is metric.  Most places are going to follow the same basic rules, old stuff is inch, and everything done on it stays that way. New stuff is metric.  Sometimes old stuff gets carried forward, it is what it is.  Sometimes old stuff gets new stuff added to it, thus the new stuff may be done in inch, but also it may be metric because all the bits for the new stuff are metric. Just because stuff is old, doesn't mean it isn't metric (lots of folks get surprised when working on really old stuff to find it is metric, even long before the metric conversion days).  Also just because it's old and in inches, doesn't mean support documentation/math wasn't done in metric.

The core issue is those who use old stuff as an excuse not to change, it means we never get converted over, and new stuff gets made in inches, it just kicks the problem forwards.  Very often those who say Inch is fine, or claim it's how they work are in a bubble. They really want to think what they say is the case, but don't realize how much down stream or parallel to them work in metric and the problems it causes.  I'm sure many of us have worked in businesses where things get converted back and forth multiple times as it works thru the processes of the company/suppliers/customer/etc as everyone has their own idea how things are done, or what is preferred.  Folks tend to make decisions/statements based on what they like/what works for them, not the bigger picture.  Which gets back to the US being less than 5% of the world, with major industries being full metric, and the shift to metric continuing (there is not growth in Inch usage).  This is where personal preferences doesn't matter. It's about matching up to the world and everything around. 

On drain pipes, far as I know, Europe uses the same sizes at N.A.  they label them different, but dimensions are the same.  Where things become issues are supply.  Their supply lines are mm, where we have the CTS sizes (nominal plus 1/8").  When PEX came, it should have been left as is, there would have been a natural conversion to metric sizes. Then everything that is made globally for plumbing/heating/cooling could be used directly.  As is, you have a very real conversion problem.  Money was spent to re-invent pex and the related bits to match up to the ODs of legacy copper systems, so now anything supply plumbing brought to the US market has to be re-designed/re-tooled for the US market, which cost a lot of money, which is spread across a much smaller market (5% vs 95% planet).  Verses having just made some metric to inch adapters decades ago to interface old to new. 

On drain pipes, far as I know, Europe uses the same sizes at N.A.  they label them different, but dimensions are the same.

The US uses drainpipes in 32mm, 40mm, 50mm, 75mm, 110mm? (Outer diameter)