Author Topic: CT Cyclone Suction Loss  (Read 5969 times)

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Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 12
CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« on: October 03, 2021, 09:51 PM »
Hey everyone, first post here!  Just yesterday I picked up a brand new CT MIDI and a VE Cyclone for my small guitar building shop.  I picked both up from a local Woodcraft just in case I decided to return the cyclone, as I have read a good bit about the suction loss issues.

Unfortunately, I got everything hooked up today & while I am very impressed by the suction straight out of the MIDI, there is a noticeable drop in suction when going through the Cyclone.  I very much plan on upgrading to a 36mm hose as well, but it seems the percentage of suction loss when using that hose will be even greater if using the cyclone. 

With the layout of my shop, I really, really want the CT Cyclone to work out.  I can't help but suspect the intersections of the black internal components.  There are no gaskets or friction-fit components to speak of & everything just sort of gets pressure from the rubber bump on the underside of the lid.  I understand this is probably to maintain continuity for the anti-static component of the vac, but there must be a solution! 

Has anyone else taken the time to dive into this & try some experimentation to eliminate the suction loss?  I have an airflow meter on order that should get delivered on Tuesday.  I'll probably try making some makeshift foam rubber gaskets for the cyclone assembly to see what happens.  If it works, I'll find a more elegant solution to maintain the anti-static function.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6753
  • No longer in Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2021, 10:10 PM »
Open the top of the cyclone, make sure the baffle is in place and the sealed port is aligned properly.

I have 5 cyclones, no loss to mention out of any of them unless the guts get misaligned when emptying the bin.

Tom

Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 12
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2021, 12:57 AM »
Okay, so my airflow meter came in today & I got to do some testing:

Measured at the end nozzle of my 27mm hose plugged straight into my CT MIDI at full speed, I got a reading of 249 CFM.  Running through the CT Cyclone, the best it could do was 182 CFM.  That's nearly a 27% loss! 

As a former mechanic, I know that even the smallest vacuum leak can cause chaos in a closed system, so I started evaluating.  I took the cyclone assembly apart & there are three very obvious potential vacuum leak points:

Where the 90ยบ arm seats into the lid
The perimeter of the lid
Where the cyclone seats into the Systainer

I went to work with some tape to address these seams & test my results.  However, I had to be careful that some contact remained between the original components, as they are all carbon & that is how it maintains it's anti-static properties.

So then, I wrapped the outer perimeter of the elbow in plumber's tape.  Two full wraps seemed to be all it took to make this more of a friction fit.  Testing with just this modification came in at 200 CFM!  Now only a 19% decrease from plugging straight into the MIDI.  Definitely an improvement, but still not fantastic.

Next, I ran a strip of electrical tape around the edge of the lid.  This yielded 200 CFM again, so no real change there.  Not a big surprise, as the lid feels darn near impossible to move with the vac running.

Lastly, the conical perimeter of the carbon cyclone where it seats into the Systainer.  I ran a strip of electrical tape around the bottom edge of the funnel & that seemed to do the trick.  Testing after this got us up to 214 CFM!  Another win, resulting in only a 14% loss from going straight to the vac. 

The suction at the hose is noticeably improved.  It's not a complicated system, but there seem to be some glaring oversights for being a $375 unit from FESTOOL!  I'll most likely copy / paste this post in an email directly to them to see what they have to say.  Perhaps they'll come out with a retrofit gasket set?  All I know is that for now, I'll be seeking some thin foam gasket material to make my own.


Offline ghhsolutions

  • Posts: 53
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2021, 04:45 AM »
Very interesting results, thanks for sharing. Definitely a quick and easy way to improve the performance. I'll be doing the same to mine today. Keep us updated on your gasket search.

Offline woodferret

  • Posts: 436
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2021, 07:58 AM »
Nice work narrowing down the leaks.  I wonder though if there's a way to keep the antistatic bridging without resorting to wirework given all the 'gaskets'. 

Offline Rick Herrick

  • Posts: 776
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2021, 08:38 AM »
Hi @silence2-38554 Thanks for doing this work, much appreciated.  I would like to duplicate this on my Sys-Vac.  Which air flow meter did you get?  I had an issue with another of my DD set ups and would like to investigate it.

Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 12
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2021, 10:13 AM »
Hi @silence2-38554 Thanks for doing this work, much appreciated.  I would like to duplicate this on my Sys-Vac.  Which air flow meter did you get?  I had an issue with another of my DD set ups and would like to investigate it.

Any of the inexpensive meters off Amazon will work.  I just grabbed the first one that popped up, it was around $25

Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 12
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2021, 10:16 AM »
Nice work narrowing down the leaks.  I wonder though if there's a way to keep the antistatic bridging without resorting to wirework given all the 'gaskets'.

There is still carbon to carbon contact at all of the problematic areas.  I mention keeping this a priority in the op, as anti static is one of the main reasons I got a Festool extractor to begin with.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2021, 10:43 AM »
    I think some simple improvements to reduce suction loss are great. On the other hand I have not found that in real world use that it is a problem.

   In my personal use of the CT Cyclone I do notice a loss of suction. But I have not had that loss create any significant impact on the DC in actual use. I might get a meter to check out of curiosity and maybe make some improvements from a 'why not' stand point.

   My cyclone is running on a CT33 (older vac model) with a five meter D36 hose going to a 3.5 meter D32/27 (which is swapped to a 3.5 meter D36 for some tools). 8.5 meters of hose total. Had no trouble collecting while routing 1/4" grooves for cabinet backs with the OF1400 a couple days ago.

   I use this set up mainly for routers, 850 planer, and pocket holes. I am sure it will handle sanders since they need less suction. I have not used it for the TS saws. I will have to see if it can keep up with 3/4" dados and the OF2200.

Seth

Offline Rick Herrick

  • Posts: 776
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2021, 11:54 AM »
Any of the inexpensive meters off Amazon will work.  I just grabbed the first one that popped up, it was around $25
Actually that is not always the case, that's why I was looking for a referral to a specific one that we know did work.

Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 12
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2021, 03:01 PM »
Any of the inexpensive meters off Amazon will work.  I just grabbed the first one that popped up, it was around $25
Actually that is not always the case, that's why I was looking for a referral to a specific one that we know did work.

Gotcha.  I grabbed the BTMETER BT-100 on Amazon HERE

Offline lshj

  • Posts: 21
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2021, 05:27 PM »
The CT Midi has the maximum flow of 130 CFM, are you sure 249 CFM is correct?

Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 12
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2021, 07:08 PM »
The CT Midi has the maximum flow of 130 CFM, are you sure 249 CFM is correct?

I caught that in the specs last night haha.  Not sure how / where they're taking their measurements.  I certainly wouldn't take my figures as absolute, but rather a consistent reference in my own personal testing.

Offline Rick Herrick

  • Posts: 776
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2021, 10:39 PM »
Gotcha.  I grabbed the BTMETER BT-100 on Amazon HERE
Thank you.

Offline WillettBarrel

  • Posts: 3
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2023, 06:47 PM »
I had similar issues with suction loss on the CT Cyclone and found this thread very helpful. I wound up running some of my own tests, and thought I'd post some of the results here for anyone else trying to navigate the same/similar issue in years to come.

My setup was a CT 26 with CT Cyclone and Boom arm. I ran the 27 mm hose that came with the Cyclone to the CT 26. I ran the 50 mm hose that came with the boom arm from the Cyclone to the 27 mm hose.

The issues I had included:
a) suction loss over the system that left small debris airborne, where it had been collected prior to Cyclone/Boom Arm install,
b) heavier particles settling in the 50 mm hose and never making it to the Cyclone
c) potential suction loss cause by the dust liner in the cyclone
d) I wanted to upgrade to a 36 mm hose and was worried this would exacerbate the pressure loss across the system. (I was thinking the CT 26 would hold suction force constant, and increasing hose diameter would decrease pressure and similarly air velocity. Spoiler Alert: I clearly only remember enough of my physics class to be dangerous, because that's not how it went down!)

I grabbed a $25 anemometer off Amazon; a different one than previously linked in this thread, but I don't think the model really matters. I used the same instrument for all measurements, so I'll just post relative values.

Plugging the 26 mm hose directly into the CT 26 mm yielded an air speed of 27.7 m/s. The cyclone, 27 mm hose with 90-degree bend, dust liner bag, and 50 mm hose with boom arm extension dropped this all the way down to 9.75 m/s, or a 65% drop in air speed. Again, I think the relative drop is all that matters here, and we can simply say it's significant.

Removing the 50 mm hose from this set up increased air speed by about 10%. Removing the dust liner from the cyclone increased the air speed by another 20%. I tried using the 50 mm hose between the CT 26 and Cyclone, removing the 27 mm hose with 90-degree bend that comes with the Cyclone (still no liner in the cylcone). This set up actually dropped air speed by about 10%. I also applied two wraps of plumbers tape on cyclone parts, as previously mentioned in this thread, and got  roughly the same 10-15% increase in air speed noted by the OP.

I was able to procure a 36 mm hose for the purpose of this test, and duplicated all of these setups, but with the D36x3.5 hose instead of the D27x3.5m hose. The 36 mm hose didn't seem as susceptible to loss over the different configurations. The difference between the initial configuration and going direct to the CT26 with the D36 was still a 40% drop. The other configurations only ever showed about a 5% improvement, which given that I wasn't being too scientific here, should be considered negligible. In general though, it's worth noting the 36 mm hose direct to the CT 26 was roughly 10% improvement over the 27 mm hose plugged directly into the CT 26, and produced higher air speed than the 27 mm hose in every like-for-like configuration.

My recommendations, for anyone else considering these different set up options:
a) If you're worried about large chips and how often you swap CT bags, then you can likely accept the pressure dorp and the Cyclone is a great option. But if you're in a situation where small debris collection is just as, if not more, important, you may want to consider skipping the Cyclone. The long-life bag may be a better investment to consider.
b) If you do go with the Cyclone, adding some plumbers tape to the internals is a must. It's a five minute fix that really does have a notable impact on performance
c) The Cyclone seems to operate slightly better without the dust liner installed. Though, it's probably a wash after the plumbers tape fix, particularly if you're mostly concerned about large chips.
d) The 50 mm hose from the boom arm offers additional reach, but otherwise only seems to impede system performance
e) The 36 mm hose doesn't sacrifice air speed or pressure. In fact, it only  seems to upgrade performance regardless cyclone or other setup factors. (I'm sure there are other threads that dive deeper into this particular subject.)

Hope someone finds this useful down the line!
TID 18, PDC 18, TS 55, TS 75, OF 1400, MFK 700, PS 420, OSC 18, HL 850, DF 500, ETS EC 150/5, RO 90, RO 150, CT 26, CT Boom Arm, D26x7M, CT SYS, VAC SYS SE 1/2, VAC SYS Accessory Set, LR 32, MFS 700, SE HL, CMS GE Set, CMS PS 300, CMS TS 75, LA CS 50, MFH 1000, Parallel Guides, Ratchet Set, Workshop Cleaning Set, CT Wings, BHC Drilling Dust Nozzle, SYS 4 Sortainer, SYS MFT, SYS A-Z

SYS LITE Duo (Returned), CT Cyclone (Sold)

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 457
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2023, 07:36 PM »
In general and I have never seen the cyclone being discussed here cyclones work at separating the debris from the air because they are inefficient and slow the air down. Never calculate CFM using an anemometer, it simply doesn't work and requires very accurate placement to even get the same air speed results when making changes. In bigger ducts they don't work at all unless a jig is made to place it accurately as air flow speed across the duct is affected by the inside walls and is nowhere like linear and it is always turbulent at the duct entry for all ducts.   

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 728
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2023, 06:41 AM »

I run a CTL26 and a CT-VA-20. For 95% of the time the cyclone's hooked up and it works great. For anything more critical (e.g. cutting slate or ceramic tile with a Hilti diamond slitter) I'll unhook the CT-VA and run to the CTL26 direct.

The best of both worlds .......

Offline WillettBarrel

  • Posts: 3
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2023, 02:14 PM »
In general and I have never seen the cyclone being discussed here cyclones work at separating the debris from the air because they are inefficient and slow the air down. Never calculate CFM using an anemometer, it simply doesn't work and requires very accurate placement to even get the same air speed results when making changes. In bigger ducts they don't work at all unless a jig is made to place it accurately as air flow speed across the duct is affected by the inside walls and is nowhere like linear and it is always turbulent at the duct entry for all ducts.

In general, you don't need to slow the air down to create mass separation. I agree less heavy mass will separate at lower speeds. But you do need high air speed to collect low mass debris. So, as others have mentioned, it really depends on your application.

As for calculating CFM ... well, I didn't. Nor did I need to. I only needed to see relative changes, so the anemometer worked just fine for the application.

As I said, hopefully someone else will find this helpful. If that's not you, no worries! Have a great time in the shop!
TID 18, PDC 18, TS 55, TS 75, OF 1400, MFK 700, PS 420, OSC 18, HL 850, DF 500, ETS EC 150/5, RO 90, RO 150, CT 26, CT Boom Arm, D26x7M, CT SYS, VAC SYS SE 1/2, VAC SYS Accessory Set, LR 32, MFS 700, SE HL, CMS GE Set, CMS PS 300, CMS TS 75, LA CS 50, MFH 1000, Parallel Guides, Ratchet Set, Workshop Cleaning Set, CT Wings, BHC Drilling Dust Nozzle, SYS 4 Sortainer, SYS MFT, SYS A-Z

SYS LITE Duo (Returned), CT Cyclone (Sold)

Offline darita

  • Posts: 441
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2023, 06:18 PM »
Just FYI, I know you didn't ask this, but I use and Oneida 2.5 DIY DD and notice little or no loss.  I had tried a Dustopper and did notice loss, that's why I switched to the Oneida.  It's not as convenient as the Festool, but it sure does work.

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 457
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2023, 07:00 PM »
In general and I have never seen the cyclone being discussed here cyclones work at separating the debris from the air because they are inefficient and slow the air down. Never calculate CFM using an anemometer, it simply doesn't work and requires very accurate placement to even get the same air speed results when making changes. In bigger ducts they don't work at all unless a jig is made to place it accurately as air flow speed across the duct is affected by the inside walls and is nowhere like linear and it is always turbulent at the duct entry for all ducts.

In general, you don't need to slow the air down to create mass separation. I agree less heavy mass will separate at lower speeds. But you do need high air speed to collect low mass debris. So, as others have mentioned, it really depends on your application.

As for calculating CFM ... well, I didn't. Nor did I need to. I only needed to see relative changes, so the anemometer worked just fine for the application.

As I said, hopefully someone else will find this helpful. If that's not you, no worries! Have a great time in the shop!

My point was how cyclones work not the air speed as that will still be high but slightly slower at the exhaust. Air/debris separation is affected by the cone height ratio and that is another bag of worms.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 2195
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2023, 11:10 AM »
Needs to be said I use my CTM 36 at max power rarely

I think that might be the reverse of 99% of users who run it full-power except when sanding.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4694
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2023, 11:22 AM »
By default when I use the CT15 in the auto mode, the suction power goes max as soon as the tool is turned on. To dial it down for sanding, I need to use the manual +- button. For belt-sanding, I do leave it at the max setting.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 12:06 PM by ChuckS »

Offline darita

  • Posts: 441
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2023, 04:04 PM »
Needs to be said I use my CTM 36 at max power rarely

I think that might be the reverse of 99% of users who run it full-power except when sanding.
I could guess, but why should one reduce suction for sanding?

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4694
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2023, 04:25 PM »
Using too much suction is like pushing the sander too hard on the surface while sanding, with less dust extracted in time, and more chances to leave swirl marks behind.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 04:28 PM by ChuckS »

Offline zapdafish

  • Posts: 621
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2023, 10:10 PM »
I'd check the plastic bends inside the cyclone, its possible for a chip to get jammed in there. It's happened to me a few times when sucking up hand plane sweepings.
Pronouns: festool, festools

Offline zapdafish

  • Posts: 621
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2023, 10:14 PM »
Needs to be said I use my CTM 36 at max power rarely

I think that might be the reverse of 99% of users who run it full-power except when sanding.
I could guess, but why should one reduce suction for sanding?

You want to use little force and let the sander do the work. High suction pulls the sander into the workpiece like a suction cup. At least thats the way I understand it.
Pronouns: festool, festools

Offline darita

  • Posts: 441
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2023, 10:00 AM »
Just want to say, great thread.  I'm learning a lot.  I always use the DD 2.5 at full suction, however now I'll use less suction while sanding.  Thanks all for the info.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 2195
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2023, 02:19 PM »
Needs to be said I use my CTM 36 at max power rarely

I think that might be the reverse of 99% of users who run it full-power except when sanding.
I could guess, but why should one reduce suction for sanding?

Like others already said; with vac too high it sucks the sander to the surface it's sanding, like having too much pressure on the sander. This results in a poor result. Of course it's sander dependent. On belt sanders it works differently. But with a RTS 400 with CTL on full power... you can just stick that on the wall (when turned off) and walk away.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 2835
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2023, 05:10 PM »
But with a RTS 400 with CTL on full power... you can just stick that on the wall (when turned off) and walk away.

You are aware that I'm going to have to test that now don't you? I have to see it
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55,FS800, FS1080, FS1400/ LR32, FS1900, FS 2424/ LR32, FS3000
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RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
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Offline bkillam

  • Posts: 1
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2023, 09:21 PM »
I purchased a CT-VA 20 on Monday and have been working on trying to understand how and why Festool would release such a poor product.  After spending $400 on the unit, I should not have to modify it with plumbers tape.  I am using a CT 48E HEPA connected to various tools like a Kapex, Domino, and various sanders.  I also use it for site and shop cleanup and was hoping to reduce the number of filter bags that I am using.  I have been testing the unit the past few days and am finding way too much "passing through" the CT-VA 20 and still a significant loss of suction even when the CT 48 is on max power.  I honestly just think the design is flawed and the "cyclone" does not have enough depth to allow the particles/dust/chips to truly separate.  On very fine shavings, they don't seem to stop in the CT-VA 20 collector and flow right in to the bag.  Shavings from my Festool Planer fill bags quickly and unfortunately the CT-VA 20 is not helping.  Improved suction will help with shop cleanup tasks but will make the separation less effective in the current design.  Has any one come up with a solution or is the best solution to use a Dust Deputy that has better flow and separation?  I appreciate any insight from this community before I return the CT-VA 20.  I'm a Festool advocate and have many tolls from them but this one just feels like it misses the mark.....