Author Topic: CT Cyclone Suction Loss  (Read 1450 times)

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Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 6
CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« on: October 03, 2021, 09:51 PM »
Hey everyone, first post here!  Just yesterday I picked up a brand new CT MIDI and a VE Cyclone for my small guitar building shop.  I picked both up from a local Woodcraft just in case I decided to return the cyclone, as I have read a good bit about the suction loss issues.

Unfortunately, I got everything hooked up today & while I am very impressed by the suction straight out of the MIDI, there is a noticeable drop in suction when going through the Cyclone.  I very much plan on upgrading to a 36mm hose as well, but it seems the percentage of suction loss when using that hose will be even greater if using the cyclone. 

With the layout of my shop, I really, really want the CT Cyclone to work out.  I can't help but suspect the intersections of the black internal components.  There are no gaskets or friction-fit components to speak of & everything just sort of gets pressure from the rubber bump on the underside of the lid.  I understand this is probably to maintain continuity for the anti-static component of the vac, but there must be a solution! 

Has anyone else taken the time to dive into this & try some experimentation to eliminate the suction loss?  I have an airflow meter on order that should get delivered on Tuesday.  I'll probably try making some makeshift foam rubber gaskets for the cyclone assembly to see what happens.  If it works, I'll find a more elegant solution to maintain the anti-static function.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6459
  • No longer in Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2021, 10:10 PM »
Open the top of the cyclone, make sure the baffle is in place and the sealed port is aligned properly.

I have 5 cyclones, no loss to mention out of any of them unless the guts get misaligned when emptying the bin.

Tom

Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 6
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2021, 12:57 AM »
Okay, so my airflow meter came in today & I got to do some testing:

Measured at the end nozzle of my 27mm hose plugged straight into my CT MIDI at full speed, I got a reading of 249 CFM.  Running through the CT Cyclone, the best it could do was 182 CFM.  That's nearly a 27% loss! 

As a former mechanic, I know that even the smallest vacuum leak can cause chaos in a closed system, so I started evaluating.  I took the cyclone assembly apart & there are three very obvious potential vacuum leak points:

Where the 90ยบ arm seats into the lid
The perimeter of the lid
Where the cyclone seats into the Systainer

I went to work with some tape to address these seams & test my results.  However, I had to be careful that some contact remained between the original components, as they are all carbon & that is how it maintains it's anti-static properties.

So then, I wrapped the outer perimeter of the elbow in plumber's tape.  Two full wraps seemed to be all it took to make this more of a friction fit.  Testing with just this modification came in at 200 CFM!  Now only a 19% decrease from plugging straight into the MIDI.  Definitely an improvement, but still not fantastic.

Next, I ran a strip of electrical tape around the edge of the lid.  This yielded 200 CFM again, so no real change there.  Not a big surprise, as the lid feels darn near impossible to move with the vac running.

Lastly, the conical perimeter of the carbon cyclone where it seats into the Systainer.  I ran a strip of electrical tape around the bottom edge of the funnel & that seemed to do the trick.  Testing after this got us up to 214 CFM!  Another win, resulting in only a 14% loss from going straight to the vac. 

The suction at the hose is noticeably improved.  It's not a complicated system, but there seem to be some glaring oversights for being a $375 unit from FESTOOL!  I'll most likely copy / paste this post in an email directly to them to see what they have to say.  Perhaps they'll come out with a retrofit gasket set?  All I know is that for now, I'll be seeking some thin foam gasket material to make my own.


Offline ghhsolutions

  • Posts: 23
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2021, 04:45 AM »
Very interesting results, thanks for sharing. Definitely a quick and easy way to improve the performance. I'll be doing the same to mine today. Keep us updated on your gasket search.

Offline woodferret

  • Posts: 135
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2021, 07:58 AM »
Nice work narrowing down the leaks.  I wonder though if there's a way to keep the antistatic bridging without resorting to wirework given all the 'gaskets'. 

Offline Rick Herrick

  • Posts: 599
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2021, 08:38 AM »
Hi @silence2-38554 Thanks for doing this work, much appreciated.  I would like to duplicate this on my Sys-Vac.  Which air flow meter did you get?  I had an issue with another of my DD set ups and would like to investigate it.

Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 6
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2021, 10:13 AM »
Hi @silence2-38554 Thanks for doing this work, much appreciated.  I would like to duplicate this on my Sys-Vac.  Which air flow meter did you get?  I had an issue with another of my DD set ups and would like to investigate it.

Any of the inexpensive meters off Amazon will work.  I just grabbed the first one that popped up, it was around $25

Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 6
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2021, 10:16 AM »
Nice work narrowing down the leaks.  I wonder though if there's a way to keep the antistatic bridging without resorting to wirework given all the 'gaskets'.

There is still carbon to carbon contact at all of the problematic areas.  I mention keeping this a priority in the op, as anti static is one of the main reasons I got a Festool extractor to begin with.

Offline SRSemenza

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  • Posts: 9734
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2021, 10:43 AM »
    I think some simple improvements to reduce suction loss are great. On the other hand I have not found that in real world use that it is a problem.

   In my personal use of the CT Cyclone I do notice a loss of suction. But I have not had that loss create any significant impact on the DC in actual use. I might get a meter to check out of curiosity and maybe make some improvements from a 'why not' stand point.

   My cyclone is running on a CT33 (older vac model) with a five meter D36 hose going to a 3.5 meter D32/27 (which is swapped to a 3.5 meter D36 for some tools). 8.5 meters of hose total. Had no trouble collecting while routing 1/4" grooves for cabinet backs with the OF1400 a couple days ago.

   I use this set up mainly for routers, 850 planer, and pocket holes. I am sure it will handle sanders since they need less suction. I have not used it for the TS saws. I will have to see if it can keep up with 3/4" dados and the OF2200.

Seth

Offline Rick Herrick

  • Posts: 599
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2021, 11:54 AM »
Any of the inexpensive meters off Amazon will work.  I just grabbed the first one that popped up, it was around $25
Actually that is not always the case, that's why I was looking for a referral to a specific one that we know did work.

Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 6
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2021, 03:01 PM »
Any of the inexpensive meters off Amazon will work.  I just grabbed the first one that popped up, it was around $25
Actually that is not always the case, that's why I was looking for a referral to a specific one that we know did work.

Gotcha.  I grabbed the BTMETER BT-100 on Amazon HERE

Offline lshj

  • Posts: 19
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2021, 05:27 PM »
The CT Midi has the maximum flow of 130 CFM, are you sure 249 CFM is correct?

Offline silence2-38554

  • Posts: 6
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2021, 07:08 PM »
The CT Midi has the maximum flow of 130 CFM, are you sure 249 CFM is correct?

I caught that in the specs last night haha.  Not sure how / where they're taking their measurements.  I certainly wouldn't take my figures as absolute, but rather a consistent reference in my own personal testing.

Offline Rick Herrick

  • Posts: 599
Re: CT Cyclone Suction Loss
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2021, 10:39 PM »
Gotcha.  I grabbed the BTMETER BT-100 on Amazon HERE
Thank you.