Author Topic: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?  (Read 2754 times)

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Offline shu

  • Posts: 23
CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« on: May 23, 2020, 09:15 AM »
Hi,

I'm considering a table saw.
As mobility is important to me, I can't consider cabinet saws.
I need to do a bit of everything from framing to fine wood.
It seems I don't have much choice...

Should I consider a CS 70, or should I wait for the new one with saw stop built in? From the very limited information online, I can't find any timing regards when the new saw will be sold in Australia.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 09:17 AM by shu »

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Online Alex

  • Posts: 6431
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2020, 11:44 AM »
Why don't you have much choice? There are more brands sold in Australia besides Festool, right?

But if you mainly want to choose between the 70 and the 80, there  are two things to consider:

1 - The 70 is a pull saw which gives you more options in working than the 80 which is just standard.

2 - The 80 has SawStop protection, which is very nice of course for your safety.

That said, I have the 70, and I feel pretty safe working with it. I love how the pull action gives me options a standard saw does not have. I wouldn't want to be without the 70. I hope they make a CS70 with SawStop in it once.

You can always call Festool Australia with this question to ask when they expect the TKS 80's arrival. 

Online FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 420
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2020, 01:43 PM »
I with Alex here. Consider what you are going to use it for, in all aspects.
There’s weight and bulk too to consider.
TKS 80: 48 kg’s
CS 70: 37 kg’s
(And the CS 50: 22 kg’s)

I have the CS 50, and like Alex I have grown to like it very much. To the point that it is for me a keeper, so if I’m later investing in a cabinet saw if I have the money and space - most likely I’ll keep the CS 50 for its portability and versatility as a pull saw.
In many instances it does also replace the need for a miter saw, just because of the pull saw function. This means I have a miter saw and a table saw in one package if needed.
So does the CS 70, but I doubt the TKS 80 will shine more than a safe “portable” table saw.
As Saw Stop saws are nowhere to be seen here, the TKS 80 is a very interesting semi-stationary and safe table saw. But I wouldn’t want to move it around frequently because of its weight.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Online Alex

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Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2020, 03:40 PM »
The TKS 80 is not 48 kg but 37 just like the CS 70.

My older model CS 70 is 33 kg, and that's heavy enough. No idea why they chose to make these new saws even heavier.

Online FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 420
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2020, 04:16 PM »
You may be right Alex. I have seen conflicting numbers earlier. I happened to just check at my dealers site, as I was in there looking.
Nevertheless it wouldn’t surprise me that the TKS could easily have been heavier than CS 70.
But, at 37 kg it’s heavy enough. Same as my old Bosch, but that one had even more bulk and was cumbersome to carry.

Imagine pull saw internals added to the TKS - it will be heavy if they decide to combine - which I hope too. It would also not surprise me much if there’s a Kapex with Saw Stop in the works as well. I think Festool will maximise every chance of adding SS safety where they can.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Hawkeye0001

  • Posts: 23
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2020, 04:29 PM »
After having worked with the CS 50 for two years now I'd always go for a pull-saw again. The added functionality is definitely something to consider. Over time there have been quite a few cuts that would've been outright dangerous perform on a normal table saw. But thanks to the pull-action of the CS saw they're a complete non-event because the work piece is securely clamped to the saw and your hands and body are far away from the blade. Love it and wouldn't wanna live without it. And if I'm in a pinch it easily replaces my Kapex for miter cuts as well (just not as comfortable and fast, of course).

Offline BiBi WET

  • Posts: 4
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2020, 04:38 PM »

1 - The 70 is a pull saw which gives you more options in working than the 80 which is just standard.



Alex, sorry for my question, but I'm not familiar with English terms concerning woodworking (I live in France): What do you mean by "pull saw"? Does it means you can set the saw blade height from 0 up to 70mm? If yes where do you see it's impossible with TKS80 model? Because on this picture It seems that you can set the height of the blade

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 551
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2020, 04:44 PM »
Is it just me or does it seem unlikely that a Festool table saw with Sawstop tech will be released in Australia for the same reasons that they have made clear that they won’t be introducing this saw in the US? Correct me if I’m wrong but Sawstop is sold throughout Australia, correct?

Have you considered a Sawstop Jobsite saw (assuming that it is available in Australia)?

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1715
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2020, 04:45 PM »
Snip.
 It would also not surprise me much if there’s a Kapex with Saw Stop in the works as well. I think Festool will maximise every chance of adding SS safety where they can.
If a Kapex with a finger-saving feature came out, I'd be among its first buyers (and I'd resell my current Kapex). The bandsaw finger-saving technology exists (already in use in Australia), and so does SawStop. It's time some good engineer figured out how it could be applied to the mitre saws. ;D

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 744
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2020, 04:54 PM »

1 - The 70 is a pull saw which gives you more options in working than the 80 which is just standard.



Alex, sorry for my question, but I'm not familiar with English terms concerning woodworking (I live in France): What do you mean by "pull saw"? Does it means you can set the saw blade height from 0 up to 70mm? If yes where do you see it's impossible with TKS80 model? Because on this picture It seems that you can set the height of the blade

A pull saw is a variation on a table saw,  basically if it was cross bread with a radial arm saw.   You can use it like a normal table saw, but you can also slide the blade forwards by a handle at the front.  So now instead of pushing the wood thru the blade, you pull the blade thru the saw like you would a radial arm saw (but upside down).

The basic benefit is now you can largely have the function of a tablesaw and a radial arm saw/miter saw in one.  You can cross cut long material that would normally not be easy with a table saw, say a 8ft 2x4,  you don't have to move it, just pull the blade.  Even more useful when you get doing miter cuts.

You can find some videos online, but most really don't show you the big picture usage, they usually have demos with small bits of wood where the real benefit is lost, since you could do those demos with a normal saw.

Add a sliding table on the side and you just have one tool with a ton of versatile cutting options.

I assume they are much more common in Europe, as they all come from there.  In the US they are un-heard of as the only one is the Mafell's and they are very expensive.

Offline BiBi WET

  • Posts: 4
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2020, 05:09 PM »
Thanks for this precision @DeformedTree !

I missed this point and never noticed CS 50 & CS 70 included this functionality!

Online Alex

  • Posts: 6431
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2020, 05:38 PM »
Alex, sorry for my question, but I'm not familiar with English terms concerning woodworking (I live in France): What do you mean by "pull saw"?

Pas de problème, BiBi.

As the English say: Pardon my French.  [big grin]

Les mots "pull saw" signifie la possibilité de tirer la scie par le bois comme ça:


Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 485
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2020, 06:03 PM »
The TKS 80 is not 48 kg but 37 just like the CS 70.

My older model CS 70 is 33 kg, and that's heavy enough. No idea why they chose to make these new saws even heavier.
The set is 60 Kg. Not that you would take it all with you (I guess).


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Online Alex

  • Posts: 6431
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2020, 06:21 PM »
The set is 60 Kg. Not that you would take it all with you (I guess).

You don't have to carry the set all at once. I'd like to see the guy who can, I mean, who has enough hands.  [smile]

The basic unit is 37 kg. My CS70 at 33 kg is not really fun to carry around.

I often take almost all extras with me. Only the slider stays at home, like always. Horrible thing.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1715
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2020, 06:24 PM »
SawStop Jobsite Pro saws (similarly for the Bosch version) are 84 lb - 38kg (with cart 113 lb). Tradespeople who need or want the safety feature and own those saws are fine with such weights in this part of the world. When the old version of the jobsite saws was reduced in price, it was quickly snapped up.

But if weight is the prime or most important consideration, a saw with the SawStop feature or the like may not be suitable.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 06:30 PM by ChuckM »

Offline HowardH

  • Posts: 1245
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2020, 06:40 PM »
what about the Erika?  Mafell makes a 70 and 85mm version.  It's really something else. 
Howard H
The Dallas Texas Festool Fanatic!

Mark Twain:  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a letter approving of it." "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything."

mft1080, P1cc, MFT/3, T15, RO150FEQ, MT55cc, RTS400, CT22, CT36E, 800, 1080, 1400, 1900 rails, OF 2200, OF1400, CSX, C18, Vecturo, Qwas dogs, Parf Dogs, Zobo's, Syslite Uni, CMS GE with router plate. Mafell DDF40, Sawstop contractor, PM 1500

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1884
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2020, 07:35 PM »
The set is 60 Kg. Not that you would take it all with you (I guess).

You don't have to carry the set all at once. I'd like to see the guy who can, I mean, who has enough hands.  [smile]

The basic unit is 37 kg. My CS70 at 33 kg is not really fun to carry around.

I often take almost all extras with me. Only the slider stays at home, like always. Horrible thing.

I have a love/hate relationship with the slider myself, Alex. I keep telling myself I will design a new slider myself. I would like to have the guides be one above the other, alongside the saw. I think the newer CS50 is like this.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Online FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 420
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2020, 08:31 PM »
The set is 60 Kg. Not that you would take it all with you (I guess).

You don't have to carry the set all at once. I'd like to see the guy who can, I mean, who has enough hands.  [smile]

The basic unit is 37 kg. My CS70 at 33 kg is not really fun to carry around.

I often take almost all extras with me. Only the slider stays at home, like always. Horrible thing.

I have a love/hate relationship with the slider myself, Alex. I keep telling myself I will design a new slider myself. I would like to have the guides be one above the other, alongside the saw. I think the newer CS50 is like this.

That was one of the reasons I went for the CS 50. But then again, my needs where portability and fairly compact set up.
The sliding table and rigidity of it for the CS 70 seems great. But it screams stationary.
I have a similar set up as the slider for CS 70 on my Metabo/Elektra Beckum Secanta, only this slider is even bigger, and has support legs. It is great, but it stays in my shed. It is movable and can be transported in a normal passenger car (station wagon) but it’s not portable.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Online Alex

  • Posts: 6431
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2020, 01:18 AM »
The sliding table and rigidity of it for the CS 70 seems great. But it screams stationary.

Indeed, it screams stationary, it is sooo big, it's terrible on the move. And in all the years I own my CS70 now I never really needed to use it anyway, it is just this big contruction beam taking space in my attic.

Online FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 420
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2020, 06:50 AM »
That’s a shame Alex! You should let it get a workout every now and then.
Let me know if you ever decide to part with it though.

@shu
The new TKS 80 is listet AS available in June both in Australia and New Zealand.
If you do get the CS 70, be sure to pick up the “EBG” version which has the new legs, widening leg support, wheels and feet among other new features. Unless you get a very good deal on the older version. Same for the CS 50 if you ever opt for that as well.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline shu

  • Posts: 23
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2020, 07:39 AM »
Thanks guys for the reply.

Why don't you have much choice? There are more brands sold in Australia besides Festool, right?

I'm a full-time designer and part-time builder. I need to do a little bit from framing to furniture, across my home, a warehouse 30 min away, and a couple of job sites occasionally.
This means I don't have the luxury or enough experience to fine-tune equipment every time after moving.
So I need something with good accuracy and mobility.
Please let me know if I have any other more affordable options.



...I have the 70, and I feel pretty safe working with it. I love how the pull action gives me options a standard saw does not have. I wouldn't want to be without the 70. I hope they make a CS70 with SawStop in it once.


Frankly I'm a bit disappointed that the saw stop was not built based on CS 50/70.

---

@FestitaMakool Thanks, I didn't realise the weight is a key factor until you mentioned it.

---

...And if I'm in a pinch it easily replaces my Kapex for miter cuts as well (just not as comfortable and fast, of course).

I don't have a mitre saw yet. And a pull saw might postpond the need for me to invest one [embarassed].


The set is 60 Kg. Not that you would take it all with you (I guess).


Oops. I reckon a trolley is a must.


That was one of the reasons I went for the CS 50. But then again, my needs where portability and fairly compact set up.
The sliding table and rigidity of it for the CS 70 seems great. But it screams stationary.
I have a similar set up as the slider for CS 70 on my Metabo/Elektra Beckum Secanta, only this slider is even bigger, and has support legs. It is great, but it stays in my shed. It is movable and can be transported in a normal passenger car (station wagon) but it’s not portable.

Is the 20mm additional cutting depth only marginal benefit, instead of essential?
I mean, if one has a cabinet saw in his shop and a job site saw in his van, that job saw is more likely to be 50. But if one can and only can have one saw, would it better to be 70?

@shu
The new TKS 80 is listet AS available in June both in Australia and New Zealand.
If you do get the CS 70, be sure to pick up the “EBG” version which has the new legs, widening leg support, wheels and feet among other new features. Unless you get a very good deal on the older version. Same for the CS 50 if you ever opt for that as well.

Thanks!

Online FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 420
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2020, 08:54 AM »
In regards of power, the CS 70 has what I’ve learned plenty.
The CS 50 actually has too, as one I know who has a TS 55 and a CS 50 he tells that the CS 50 has more plenty more torque when ripping. Which is natural as they can fit a larger and heavier motor probably with more windings, in regards to a portable plunge saw. It will also come down to the wood and of course the right blade.

For bevel cuts the CS 70 shines on cutting depth in thicker 2x material. As it actually cuts through. An important thing to consider.

So for power and cutting depth the CS 70 shines.
If you are only doing thicker wood as framing/construction at a less frequent basis, a cheap small table saw (or indeed a HK 85) will do as there’s not the same need for precision. I did the decision to get the CS 50 for finer work and keep other saws for construction work.

That said, the CS 70 is the best all rounder [wink]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Online Alex

  • Posts: 6431
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2020, 09:45 AM »
Let me know if you ever decide to part with it though.

No, I can't break up the set.

Offline Hawkeye0001

  • Posts: 23
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2020, 10:06 AM »
Is the 20mm additional cutting depth only marginal benefit, instead of essential?
I mean, if one has a cabinet saw in his shop and a job site saw in his van, that job saw is more likely to be 50. But if one can and only can have one saw, would it better to be 70?

Depends a bit on what you do with it.
From my experience I'd opt for a bigger saw if you
  • do a lot of beveled cuts (anything over about 4cm material thickness becomes iffy)
  • work with plywood sheets larger than 60cmx120cm (too unwieldy and unstable on the small slider table)
  • work a lot with rough sawn lumber
  • don't need to carry it around a lot

I do cabinetry with it and have no cabinet saw simply for lack of space. But so far I've always found other ways to cope with those limitations, e.g. using my TSC 55 + rail to break down the larger sheet good items or rough lumber.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1651
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2020, 01:37 PM »
If a Kapex with a finger-saving feature came out, I'd be among its first buyers (and I'd resell my current Kapex). The bandsaw finger-saving technology exists (already in use in Australia), and so does SawStop. It's time some good engineer figured out how it could be applied to the mitre saws. ;D
WTF are you doing with your Kapex to be afraid about your fingers? Please use the hold-down clamp so you can stop worrying.

Apart from that: an instant blade stop sawstop-style could not work on a kapex as it would push the blade into the workpiece. Possibly a purely electronic version (that reverses polarity at maximum power till the blade is at a standstill) could work to prevent the worst.


Offline BiBi WET

  • Posts: 4
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2020, 05:05 PM »
Alex, sorry for my question, but I'm not familiar with English terms concerning woodworking (I live in France): What do you mean by "pull saw"?

Pas de problème, BiBi.

As the English say: Pardon my French.  [big grin]

Les mots "pull saw" signifie la possibilité de tirer la scie par le bois comme ça:



Your French is better than my English! 👍

Merci pour les explications !




Offline shu

  • Posts: 23
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2020, 07:45 AM »
In regards of power, the CS 70 has what I’ve learned plenty.
The CS 50 actually has too, as one I know who has a TS 55 and a CS 50 he tells that the CS 50 has more plenty more torque when ripping. Which is natural as they can fit a larger and heavier motor probably with more windings, in regards to a portable plunge saw. It will also come down to the wood and of course the right blade.

For bevel cuts the CS 70 shines on cutting depth in thicker 2x material. As it actually cuts through. An important thing to consider.

So for power and cutting depth the CS 70 shines.
If you are only doing thicker wood as framing/construction at a less frequent basis, a cheap small table saw (or indeed a HK 85) will do as there’s not the same need for precision. I did the decision to get the CS 50 for finer work and keep other saws for construction work.

That said, the CS 70 is the best all rounder [wink]

In the limited construction work I get involved in, it barely gets thicker than 45mm. and my TS / HKC 55 seems more than enough.
It's the fine wood work that might need deeper cutting depth in my case. I have saved lots of 65mm slabs [big grin]  But they may need a TS 75 I guess. Is that right?


Depends a bit on what you do with it.
From my experience I'd opt for a bigger saw if you
  • do a lot of beveled cuts (anything over about 4cm material thickness becomes iffy)
I do have lots of 40mm / 65mm raw slabs. But I may not start to use them in the foreseeable future.
  • work with plywood sheets larger than 60cmx120cm (too unwieldy and unstable on the small slider table)
Most of the plywood sheets I work are 120cm x 240cm. But am I right I just simply use track saw?
  • work a lot with rough sawn lumber
Not now but surely in 5 years time.
  • don't need to carry it around a lot
Definitely need to carry it around a lot.
[/list]

I do cabinetry with it and have no cabinet saw simply for lack of space. But so far I've always found other ways to cope with those limitations, e.g. using my TSC 55 + rail to break down the larger sheet good items or rough lumber.

Now after considering the points you guys listed, I tend to go for CS 50. Not because I don't need a larger one, it's just the chance that I would need the additional cutting depth and power is rare, at least for now. And the additional weight is too much for a site saw.
And lumber cutting, when I eventually do a lot of it, would be most likely happening in a shop, and in a good number of years later.
The money saved from 70 to 50, may be given to a HK85?

Online FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 420
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2020, 04:30 PM »
Given that you may not need the additional depth for a while, your everyday back will probably thank you if you choose the CS 50. A HK85 would be a very portable companion for tougher jobs. It is more powerful than a TS 75. It can be used free hand, with standard FT rail, and indeed the FSK rails - which I think are brilliant! You’re on to monster saws if you want to cut 4x material anyway. And the HK 85 does cut all the way to 60° at 47mm depth, and 62mm at 45°

When I saw, and lifted both the 70 and 50 side by side, I found the CS 50 more modern, and very tempting as I had struggled moving in and out with my late Bosch GTS 10 XC.
The day I have room and money for a cabinet saw, my CS 50 will still be kept for those times I need it close or have it with me. Adding UG Wings or KA-KS and/or the MW 1000 extension table you’ll have a very competent setup, and even the sliding table is also compact enough to bring along for those occasions.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Hawkeye0001

  • Posts: 23
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2020, 05:27 PM »
One thing that just crossed my mind and I hadn't seen mentioned yet: with the CS 50 be prepared to be stuck with Festool's selection of saw blades. The 50 doesn't use a normal 30mm arbor hole but a proprietary one with a starshaped hole! Just be aware of that fact and take a look at the offered blade selection before you purchase your saw.

Offline shu

  • Posts: 23
Re: CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2020, 03:43 AM »
That's a good point @Hawkeye0001
@FestitaMakool Have you find this a problem to seek exclusive blades for 50?