Author Topic: CMS-TS 75 alignment  (Read 3007 times)

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Offline elheebo

  • Posts: 3
CMS-TS 75 alignment
« on: February 25, 2016, 08:51 AM »
Hi All,
I have the CMS-TS 75 inserted into a MFT/3-VL, which is attached to an MFT/3 table. I'm being a bit picky, but the blade of the saw is out of alignment (when fully extended) by about 0.5mm, with respect to the CMS-TS. Does anyone know of a method to change the alignment of the TS 75, when it is mounted into the CMS-TS 75? I can't find anything in the manual to address this issue.
Any help appreciated!

Chris

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Offline JakobProgsch

  • Posts: 25
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2016, 11:50 AM »
I thought about this too recently. I figured a simple way would be to put "stacks" of duct tape at fitting locations on the bottom of the cms module to micro adjust the contact surfaces with the saw.
I haven't tried it yet though.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6192
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2016, 04:19 PM »
I'm not sure if I understand what the issue is. But have you adjust the jibs? The ones used to center and adjust the slop of the TS on the guild rail?

Offline KescoNY

  • Posts: 130
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2016, 04:41 PM »
There should be 2 clear plastic strips on the cms table.  Putting just a few layers of packing tape over those strips usually helps making the plate fit tighter to the table. I noticed a better alignment with a tighter fit.

I have never tried this method on my VL but several times on the GE. 

Hope that helps
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Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 2073
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2016, 09:20 PM »

Hi All,
I have the CMS-TS 75 inserted into a MFT/3-VL, which is attached to an MFT/3 table. I'm being a bit picky, but the blade of the saw is out of alignment (when fully extended) by about 0.5mm, with respect to the CMS-TS. Does anyone know of a method to change the alignment of the TS 75, when it is mounted into the CMS-TS 75? I can't find anything in the manual to address this issue.
Any help appreciated!

Chris

Chris,  are you saying that if you put the fence against the blade, that the front or back of the blade is about .5mm off the fence?  If so you will need to loosen the lock knobs that hold the 75 to the plate. Not much, just enough to bump and move things a bit. If the back of the blade is .5 out away from the fence, it might not make it as big of a deal from the other way around.

If you are talking about things being out in another axis, please clarify.

What fence are you using with this setup?

Cheers. Bryan.
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2016, 02:20 AM »

Hi All,
I have the CMS-TS 75 inserted into a MFT/3-VL, which is attached to an MFT/3 table. I'm being a bit picky, but the blade of the saw is out of alignment (when fully extended) by about 0.5mm, with respect to the CMS-TS. Does anyone know of a method to change the alignment of the TS 75, when it is mounted into the CMS-TS 75? I can't find anything in the manual to address this issue.
Any help appreciated!

Chris

Chris,  are you saying that if you put the fence against the blade, that the front or back of the blade is about .5mm off the fence?  If so you will need to loosen the lock knobs that hold the 75 to the plate. Not much, just enough to bump and move things a bit. If the back of the blade is .5 out away from the fence, it might not make it as big of a deal from the other way around.

If you are talking about things being out in another axis, please clarify.

What fence are you using with this setup?

Cheers. Bryan.

I first thought blade to table (perpendicular) .. but yes, it needs clarification!

Shouldn't we be talking in degrees of alignment, not mm?

If I was cutting something 70mm thick that was 0.5mm wider at the top compared to the bottom I wouldn't call that "picky", I'd call it misaligned.

Offline elheebo

  • Posts: 3
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2016, 12:26 PM »
Sorry I wasn't more clear. What I mean is that when the TS-75 is placed into the CMS-TS module, the blade is not perfectly parallel to the series of grooves on the top of the CMS-TS.
I am using a precision plate (on an MFT/3) with Incra LS positioner (like Bryan), so yes, I can tweak the fence just slightly, to make it parallel to the blade, but I was hoping that there was a reliable way to start ff with the TS-75 perfectly parallel to the CMS-TS module that holds it.

Offline JakobProgsch

  • Posts: 25
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2016, 01:33 PM »
The toe in adjustment procedure would apply I guess. The toe in for track usage is annoyingly the wrong way around when used in the cms. It pushes the stock into the fence. I reduced the toe in to the minimum that still gave me clean cuts on the track for that reason.

Offline elheebo

  • Posts: 3
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2016, 03:31 PM »
Hi Jakob,

Could you please explain the toe-in adjustment procedure for the TS-75?

Many thanks,

Chris

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 444
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2019, 07:10 PM »
To answer Jakob's question (but, at this point, more for posterity's sake) the toe-in procedure for the TS 75 can be found on page 22 of the "Guided Circular Saw Supplemental User's Manual".

I will also take the opportunity to say that it's a shame that the two holders that clamp the saw to the CMS TS "retaining panel" (to use Festool's terminology) don't feature an allowance to either automatically (via some sort of deliberate asymmetry) counteract the effect of proper track saw toe-in and apply toe-in in the proper direction as is suitable for when the saw is mounted upside down in the CMS or provide for some easy adjustability to allow the user to dial-in the recommended toe-in (whatever that recommended toe-in is for the CMS TS). Instead, the guidance is apparently to adjust the ripping fence (be that the supplied miter fence or the optional CS 50/CMS full length fence a.k.a the LA-CS 50/CMS Part# 492095) to account for the saw's toe-in (making the rip fence/stopper parallel to the blade). This works, though a problem arises if the rip fence in use is the miter fence and if the sliding table is installed since this change in alignment will become a misalignment when the miter fence is moved over onto the sliding table. This, I suppose, is a good reason to buy and make use of the full length rip fence (assuming it is aligned properly). 

The topic of toe-in in relation to the CMS TS modules has come up before (here and here and here and here and here and here and, most recently, here) so it's unfortunate that there's never been any official guidance issued by Festool. Obviously, no one wants to have to (nor should they be expected to) adjust the toe-in on their saw every time it's in or out of the CMS table. Therefore, it would be worthwhile for Festool to chime in with the preferred method for ensuring proper toe-in when the saw is moved back and forth between the track and the CMS. What say you @Phil Beckley?

Now there are those among us that don't buy the argument that toe-is even necessary. Maybe they have a point, I don't know. I just know that the confusion and postulating surrounding this issue deserves an official response.   

FWIW I've checked and the manuals that come with the TS 55 and TS 75 as well as those that accompany the two versions of CMS modules are all silent on the topic as is (for obvious NAINA reasons) the US-produced "Guided Circular Saw Supplemental Manual". I also re-watched the scant few videos that Festool has produced that deal with the CMS bench saw variation but none of those address this issue either.         
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 07:14 PM by TinyShop »
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [nos], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h], Walko 4 MKII (NL) [nos], Festool MFS 400 w/add-on 700 profiles & router slide (DE) [n]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [nos] new old stock   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6192
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2019, 10:38 PM »
Im not exactly sure if readjusting the toe in is necessary. When you look at the Euro way of doing things. They run the fence just past the first gullets of the blades of their table saws so they are only cutting off the front teeth. You can however adjust the CS50 fence to accomidate the toe in by losening the 4 allen bolts at the front of the fence on the bottem side. One losened the fence will swing easily to adj for the toe kick.

Anyway here is the UK standard for setting a table saws fence. I ca only assume it is the same with the rest of the EU

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

See figure 2A

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2402
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2019, 08:02 AM »
I've adjusted the bases on all four my TSs, no toe in allowed, same as all three tablesaws.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2088
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2019, 03:41 PM »
I've adjusted the bases on all four my TSs, no toe in allowed, same as all three tablesaws.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
I do the same. I don't see a single benefit of toe-in. In most cases there is no "keeper" and "waste" pieces. They are both "keeper" pieces. Add to that using a sled or moving fence to the right of the blade for some operations and toe-in becomes pointless.

Offline tedzap

  • Posts: 20
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2020, 03:24 PM »
I know this thread is a year old, but when looking for info I came across it...   so still relevant I suppose, and thought I would throw out my experiences.

I have the standalone CMS-GE.

When I installed my TS75 into the CMS top, I found that stock would bind when I pushed it through.   After doing a plunge cut test, I found my cut wasn't square in both toe an tilt.   

I first squared up the miter so that the blade was perpendicular to the base using the two stop screws.

When I went to adjust the toe-in I realized that *my* TS75 didn't have the 4 screws on the base to adjust the toe (as described in the TS55 supplemental manual).   What I surmised was that the four bolts that held the quick-miter adjusters down would likely serve the same purpose (from the top).  By loosening these I was able to to square the blade to my track.

All good...   However, when I put the saw back into the CMS table, I was still not parallel with the grooves in the CMS top.    For the short term, I skewed the fence to be in line with the blade.

After this project I am going to see if I can adjust the toe-in to get the blade parallel with the CMS top.   It won't be in line with my track, but I plan to primarily use this saw in the CMS.





Offline tedzap

  • Posts: 20
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2020, 10:43 AM »
so you measure from the blade to the edge of the saw housing?    Those paolini rules are great.


Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6192
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2020, 10:47 AM »
heres what I ended up doing. I got this from a ex well known festool employee/ trainer.   useing the protractor head/ fence that came with the saw/CMS andwhile in mounted in the CMS.

1) raise the blade to the highest position it can go.

2) Make sure that the fence is set the european way meaning the rear of the fence should be about where the rear of the saw blade is.

2) loosen the knobs that allow you to move the in and out to the blade. Take the fence  butt it up to the saws blade. Not hard to wear you move the blade but hard enough wear the fence is firmly against the blade. Then tighten the knob that allows you to move the fence in and away from the blade.


3) loosen the knob that adjust the angle of the fence, pull the little black spring loaded button up and loosen the 2 allan head cap screws.

4) while the fence is tight against the blade take single a post it note place it between the tooth of the rear saw blade and the fence.

5) while holding the fence tight against the blade and the post it between the tooth and fence, tightened the 2 allan /cap screws, place the black spring loaded button into place and push down on it to assure its all the way down and tight the knob on the protractor head.

6) move the fence back away from the blade  remove the fence from the v channel on the CMS and reinstall it move it tight against the saw blade to check if the adjustment is correct do it a couple of times just to be sure the alignment wont change.

7) make a couple of practice cuts if your happy with the results cool if not re-adjust.

Pretty much the same process if yer using the CS 50 fence, just loosen the 4 allan / cap screws under the fence head and just.

Also one thing that does keep going out of adj is the blade staying at 90 degree to the table. I use a small woodpeckers try angle to check its alignment ad re adjust. the festool rep told me I should adjust the stops 90 degree on the saw to avoid having to check and adjust the blade.

I havent done that as I periodically use my ts 75 for cutting on a guide rail and dont want to mess with that adjustment.

Anyway thats what I did.

Your millage may vary

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1705
Re: CMS-TS 75 alignment
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2020, 04:09 PM »
In case you also have the sliding table: start with aligning the blade to the slider table, then do the fence.