Author Topic: Choosing between FSK rail or FS-WA+rail ? (Read 3140 times)

Julto · « **on:** August 30, 2023, 10:09 AM »

Hi everyone,
Hope you are doing great!

Yesterday I finally pulled the trigger on my first Fetool saw, a TS60 with a 1400 rail.
Today I'm trying to figure out if it will be better to use it with a FSK rail or the FS-WA+rail combo,
Would you have some insights regarding the accuracy & repeatibility of one vs the other ?

I'm not a professional, just a hobbyist woodworker, and the intention is to have a kind of do it all saw, replacing as much as possible the need for a separate miter saw and a table saw.
Something like the MFT3 table would work but I just can't justify the expense for now and I think I like the flexibility of the FSK / FS-WA more.

Many thanks!
Julien

squall_line · « **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2023, 11:10 AM »

FSK rails are limited to 670mm; there is no longer rail, and they can't be connected end-to-end.

Depending on the length of FSK rail, you are limited in the angle you can cut in one direction or the other (FSK 250 has less adjustability).

If you're going to be working on long stock or making rip cuts, the FS rail is more flexible. The FSK rail allows you to lift the saw with the rail attached after every cut, but it also REQUIRES you to lift the saw with the rail after every cut.

They both have their uses, it really depends on your needs for the rail more than the accuracy, per se.

Coen · « **Reply #2 on:** August 30, 2023, 12:01 PM »

They each cover completely different use-cases, so I don't see how this can be a dilemma to choose between?

As already said; the FSK rails are limited in length. Also; because of the small area their knobs touch the material it's inherently less accurate than FS-WA/90 + FS/2 rail.

The FSK 670 is designed so you can cut the 590 mm wide OSB sheet (common construction type sheet) goods. It's how I could very quickly build a whole canopy with the HK-85 and FSK 670; cutting the frame (75x200, 50x150) and roofing (59 cm wide) all with the same rail-connected saw.

The FSK rail is however pretty useless for longer sheetgoods. I did cut off one door using HK-85 + FSK rail, but even that had to be cut from two sides as the rail was not long enough.

mrB · « **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2023, 12:36 PM »

If you envisage the saw replacing a mitre saw, for tasks such as chopping a whole load of 2x4 to frame out a build, then the FSK is going to be sooooo much quicker and easier for repeat cuts in good time.
The fact that the rail 'sticks' to the saw makes picking up the tool(s) and moving and setting to the material so much quicker than the alternative.

If your'e just thinking the FSK rail is a good way to set angles for an dozen cuts during the day then the alternative might be a better solution. The FSK rail is acurate for construction purposes, but I wouldn't use (trust it blindly) for my professional furniture projects, I'd mark the material accurately and use a regular rail.

That's my opinion

Peter Kelly · « **Reply #4 on:** August 30, 2023, 12:42 PM »

I wonder how awkward it'd be using a plunge type TS 60 with an FSK rail for cross cutting shorter stock. This system seems like it was optimised for non-plunging HKC type saws.

mino · « **Reply #5 on:** August 30, 2023, 01:32 PM »

Quote from: Coen on August 30, 2023, 12:01 PM

...
The FSK 670 is designed so you can cut the 590 mm wide OSB sheet (common construction type sheet) goods. It's how I could very quickly build a whole canopy with the HK-85 and FSK 670; cutting the frame (75x200, 50x150) and roofing (59 cm wide) all with the same rail-connected saw.
...

A bit of OT, but how practical is the HK 85 with the FSK rail ?
One hand operation feasible ? Were you not longing for a (lighter) HK(C) 55 doing that job ?

Looking for a purely subjective view.

I already have the 380 mm blade Protool CSP 145E for the deep cuts, so thinking if the HK 85 would not be a bit redundant there ... and the CSP 145E can probably handle the HK 85 dado attachment with ease .. erm ..

Julto · « **Reply #6 on:** August 30, 2023, 03:24 PM »

Thanks that helps !

To be more precise the FS-WA I had in mind was the one with multiple angle adjustments (ref 577040), it goes from -60° to +60° like the FSK 670.
Again I may have been missing the obvious, to me it seemed that for some uses in furniture making they had some overlap.
I completely overlooked that the saw stays attached to the FSK, that's food for thoughts indeed.
And small pins on the FSK could also be somehow a limitation to precise positionning.

As a non prof. speed is not much of a concern and I don't do the same cut all day, but on the other hand if it is going to take time then I would like the result to be as accurate as possible (no visible gaps etc).
Would you say it is better to forget both of them and stick to marking and careful rail positionning ?
Or could the FS-WA (with multiple angles) still get more repeatable cuts than multiple markings & positionnings if we take the time to set it up properly ?

James Carriere · « **Reply #7 on:** August 30, 2023, 04:09 PM »

Hi Julto,

I realize your question was which of the two style of rails should you get as a non professional woodworker, however in your situation you really should consider getting one of each. The FSK rails are fantastic for crosscuts and you have indicated a MFT table is not in your near future so you will need an easy and reliable way to cut smaller rails and stiles, legs, etc. to length. Doing this with a standard FS rail is possible but not very practical. For the above purposes I would consider the 420 FSK as it will easily manage the smaller crosscuts and still provide the possible squaring of smaller panels. As others have indicated the FSK rail is not capable of cutting full sheets due to its limited length. Thus a FS rail would still be required. With both rail types, your final accuracy is dependent upon how will you set up and operate the tools. Both can give reliable square cuts with proper attention and technique. As mrB pointed out, blind trust in the tool can result in less than perfect results. With that said, both systems can deliver professional results despite the FSK being typically more considered for carpentry rather than fine furniture.

Coen · « **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2023, 05:26 PM »

Quote from: mino on August 30, 2023, 01:32 PM

Quote from: Coen on August 30, 2023, 12:01 PM
...
The FSK 670 is designed so you can cut the 590 mm wide OSB sheet (common construction type sheet) goods. It's how I could very quickly build a whole canopy with the HK-85 and FSK 670; cutting the frame (75x200, 50x150) and roofing (59 cm wide) all with the same rail-connected saw.
...
A bit of OT, but how practical is the HK 85 with the FSK rail ?
One hand operation feasible ? Were you not longing for a (lighter) HK(C) 55 doing that job ?

Looking for a purely subjective view.

I already have the 380 mm blade Protool CSP 145E for the deep cuts, so thinking if the HK 85 would not be a bit redundant there ... and the CSP 145E can probably handle the HK 85 dado attachment with ease .. erm ..

Very practical. Maybe even more so than a mitre saw on that job. It's hard to bring 4 meter long 75x200 beams to the mitre saw. It's easy to bring the FSK-attached HK-85 to the beam. Yes, one hand is possible. No I didn't want a 55, because I needed to cut 75mm thick beams and slice out a 75mm deep rebate on a 150x150 pole to put the 75mmx200 on top of. The HK 85 is the lightest that can do that on rail.

I don't have the dado attachment. I have no use for it. I have no 380mm monster either.

I bought both HK 85 and FSK-670 (separately) on the used market. That came with the bonus of a smaller Systainer

, although it was still my first T-Loc 5 systainer. There are a lot of FSK-250's and FSK-420's for sale, not so many FSK-670's. I got it with the bag too. Rebating the 150x150 poles could also be done for at a time using the FSK-670

mino · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2023, 05:38 PM »

@James Carriere
Sorry, but putting the FSK rails - with the two rubbery contact points - in the same accuracy category as the FS-WA (which has a 30+cm reference surface) is just ... incorrect. That is not even getting to the fact of the TS60 being a plunge saw, not a fixed-depth circular saw where the FSK turlly shines. For carpentry.

@Julto
1) If you needed to ask, you do not want the FSK. You may get it later on ... if you go around (ab)using the TS60 for some carpentry work. But keep in mind the FSK is a carpentry tool. Not a cabinetry tool. Nough said.

2) If you have only one 1400 rail, next step is to get the 800 mm FS/2 rail for shorter cuts.

3) After that, get the Festool FS/2 accessories set with the FS-WA, the clamps, the joning rods etc. :
https://www.festool.com/products/guide-systems/guide-rails/577157---sys3-m-137-fs2-set

That set includes almost all you need, and nothing more. And all that for a very good bundle price.

Along the set, also get the FS-WA/VL extension as it is a bargain for the price and will get handy with no MFT-ish table:
https://www.festool.com/accessory/577041---fs-wa-vl

Now, all that said, there is a catch. Isn't it always ? The FS-WA is an excelent piece .. BUT ... do keep in mind the detents are only approximate. That is absolutely fine for various non-right angles and still better than what you will get with the FSK. Except for 90˚, there you need absolute precision and the detents (any detents) just cannot provide that. What this means, is it a bad square ? Nope. Not at all.

The FS-WA is the best square hobby woodworker's money can buy for the FS/2 system. BUT one needs to have a calibration square to go along for those exact 90°cuts. So, move over to TSO product webpage and get their MTR-X to go along your FS/2 accessories system. While overe there, do look seriously at their parallel guides system. Heh.

-------------
I know, above is a lot to digest ... still, for your original use case: FS-WA all the way, and that in the FS/2 accessories set. Hope it serves you well!

Julto · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2023, 06:32 PM »

Lots of insights, thanks that's much appreciated !
I'll need to sleep on it, indeed I do not have the clamps yet so the set would make sense and hopefully if going the FS-WA route I could fit one of my squares on it for calibration (not that the multipurpose TSO one is not appealing but that definitely comes at a cost)

HighlandMarine · « **Reply #11 on:** September 01, 2023, 05:39 PM »

Mino covered everything very well along with some other great responses. Personally, I have all the accessories listed above along with the TSO GRS set, really get a lot of use out of these as well. Also hope you picked up the LR32 rail.

alltracman78 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 03, 2023, 05:15 AM »

I'm going to have to disagree to some extent here. I can accurately cut to fractions of a degree (1/4*) with the FSK rails.
It does take some finesse; I returned my first FSK 420 because it wasn't perfectly square. The second one wasn't either, so I filed down a bit of the nub. I did the same with my FSK 670 ( I don't own the middle one, seems superfluous to me).
It's not hard to judge position between the degree marks for the fraction.

You do need a straight edge on the wood.
It's also best for crosscutting and has obvious width limitations.
For important cuts I also mark the angle.
The FSK rails are SO much more stable on thinner pieces because you have the two nubs to brace with. Many times I don't need a clamp with them where I would if I used the FS rails.
I don't have a TS60 but I wouldn't think the plunge would be a problem, just plunge ahead of the cut.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned (in this thread); the FSK rails ONLY work with the HK saws and the TS60. They won't work with the TS55 or the TS75, if you end up getting one down the road.

I don't own an FS WA so I can't compare to that. I do know it's a lot more expensive, especially with add ons. So if you're trying to decide where to put your money it may be cheaper to measure and mark a line vs the whole FS WA setup (time/convenience vs money)
I would guess the FSK rails are better for crosscutting while the FS WA is better for longer cuts.

If I had to choose one rail type I would definitely choose the FS rails over the FSK simply because the FS rails are much more versatile in many many ways. But the FSK rails are fantastic at the specific job they do.

Quote from: mino on August 30, 2023, 01:32 PM

A bit of OT, but how practical is the HK 85 with the FSK rail ?
One hand operation feasible ? Were you not longing for a (lighter) HK(C) 55 doing that job ?

Looking for a purely subjective view.

Very practical. If all you're cutting is thin stuff the HK 55 is obviously more convenient. But if I had to choose between the HK 55 and the HK 85 I would take the HK 85 hands down. The HK 55 won't even cut 1 1/2 inches at a 45* bevel. The HK 85 will cut much thicker material. Not to mention it will cut up to a 60* bevel vs 50*? for the HK 55.
It's obviously heavier, and there is a big difference in moving the HK 55 with the FSK 420 vs the HK 85 with the FSK 670. Definitely doable though.

Coen · « **Reply #13 on:** September 03, 2023, 08:06 AM »

Quote from: alltracman78 on September 03, 2023, 05:15 AM

[...]
You do need a straight edge on the wood.

That isn't present on construction lumber, hence my comment. It's not that the FSK isn't square, it's the tiny knobs that will be mislead by a non-straight (/non-smooth) edge in a way the FS-WA won't.

Quote from: alltracman78 on September 03, 2023, 05:15 AM

[...]
Very practical. If all you're cutting is thin stuff the HK 55 is obviously more convenient. But if I had to choose between the HK 55 and the HK 85 I would take the HK 85 hands down. The HK 55 won't even cut 1 1/2 inches at a 45* bevel. The HK 85 will cut much thicker material. Not to mention it will cut up to a 60* bevel vs 50*? for the HK 55.
It's obviously heavier, and there is a big difference in moving the HK 55 with the FSK 420 vs the HK 85 with the FSK 670. Definitely doable though.

Compared to bringing the HK-85 + FSK to a 75x200 beam the weight savings is monstrous compared to bringing said beam to a mitre saw.

mino · « **Reply #14 on:** September 03, 2023, 03:14 PM »

Quote from: Coen on September 03, 2023, 08:06 AM

Quote from: alltracman78 on September 03, 2023, 05:15 AM
[...]
You do need a straight edge on the wood.
That isn't present on construction lumber, hence my comment. It's not that the FSK isn't square, it's the tiny knobs that will be mislead by a non-straight (/non-smooth) edge in a way the FS-WA won't.

To add:

One also needs hardwood with the two-nibs design of the FSK - the small contact points on the FSK will easily create a 0.01" "dip" in softwood at the contact point .. which will be enough to skew the angle. In carpentry, a non-issue. In cabinetry, a deal breaker easily.

Coen · « **Reply #15 on:** September 03, 2023, 03:38 PM »

As long as both contact points create the same dent, the angle isn't skewed.

mino · « **Reply #16 on:** September 03, 2023, 03:44 PM »

Quote from: Coen on September 03, 2023, 03:38 PM

As long as both contact points create the same dent, the angle isn't skewed.

Did not think of that!

/a really good one!

lwoirhaye · « **Reply #17 on:** September 03, 2023, 08:03 PM »

I haven't used my FSK rail in awhile so I don't remember exactly but when I got it it wasn't square. I trust a TSO square more. There are other squares out there and for cabinet making I'd trust them more than the FSK.

alltracman78 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 07, 2023, 10:19 PM »

Quote from: Coen on September 03, 2023, 08:06 AM

Quote from: alltracman78 on September 03, 2023, 05:15 AM
[...]
You do need a straight edge on the wood.

That isn't present on construction lumber, hence my comment. It's not that the FSK isn't square, it's the tiny knobs that will be mislead by a non-straight (/non-smooth) edge in a way the FS-WA won't.

Same thing goes for the FS/WA. Or any square. If the edge isn't straight the angle will be off.
Sometimes the longer straight edge of the WA or other square will overcome that, sometimes the 2 separate "nubs" of the FSK can do things a straight edge can't, like bridge a bump or imperfection a straight edge will get caught on.
Nothing is perfect.

Quote from: Coen on September 03, 2023, 03:38 PM

As long as both contact points create the same dent, the angle isn't skewed.

Exactly! Though I doubt it would create any kind of divot very often.
Plenty of soft wood isn't all that soft. And there's no need to ram the rail into the wood. The rail isn't that heavy or aggressive.

Coen · « **Reply #19 on:** September 08, 2023, 07:29 PM »

Quote from: alltracman78 on September 07, 2023, 10:19 PM

Quote from: Coen on September 03, 2023, 08:06 AM
Quote from: alltracman78 on September 03, 2023, 05:15 AM
[...]
You do need a straight edge on the wood.

That isn't present on construction lumber, hence my comment. It's not that the FSK isn't square, it's the tiny knobs that will be mislead by a non-straight (/non-smooth) edge in a way the FS-WA won't.
Same thing goes for the FS/WA. Or any square. If the edge isn't straight the angle will be off.
Sometimes the longer straight edge of the WA or other square will overcome that, sometimes the 2 separate "nubs" of the FSK can do things a straight edge can't, like bridge a bump or imperfection a straight edge will get caught on.
Nothing is perfect.

Quote from: Coen on September 03, 2023, 03:38 PM
As long as both contact points create the same dent, the angle isn't skewed.

Exactly! Though I doubt it would create any kind of divot very often.
Plenty of soft wood isn't all that soft. And there's no need to ram the rail into the wood. The rail isn't that heavy or aggressive.

Bumps tend to be knots that can be taken out before the cut (but then still leave a problem for the FSK rail) Small depressions / cuts / tear-out is more common with wood, all solved with the longer edge of FS-WA.