Author Topic: 2 different Festool power cords.???  (Read 9014 times)

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Offline demographic

  • Posts: 667
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2021, 02:49 AM »
Err...yeah...umm...


So this two cords thing is still a gormless idea in my opinion.

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Offline Alex

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Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2021, 03:28 AM »
Give it a rest guys. You are worst than a republican talking to a democrat.

Why would you want to stiffle a polite discussion? You can't handle two people having a different opinion? You're not required to click on the link.

Both Coen and DeformedTree seem very well versed in their own systems. Since this subject has come up multiple times before here I find it interesting to read about and try to understand it better.

 

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 831
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2021, 04:16 AM »
Haha, @Svar You hit the nail [big grin]

Then, I agree with Alex and Cheese, there’s something to learn and to re-fill knowledge in a constructive polite discussion if one dear and have time to read.

So as the English says: Keep calm and carry on.
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Offline Roachmill

  • Posts: 275
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2021, 04:41 AM »
Speaking as someone who holds electricians as masters of both science and dark magic, I do wonder why the two cord thing exists. I'm in one-cord-land and never have I wished for a marginally thinner lead for a smaller tool. If anything, I'd rather have a heavier gauge plug-it cord that would satisfy even their larger handheld machines. Festool may save pennies on thinner leads, but surely that gets knackered by having to manufacture the two sets of fittings, tracking inventory and suchlike. I'm sure they know best  [big grin]

Offline mrB

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Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2021, 05:03 AM »
I was under the impression that the more powerful tools running on 110v in the USA require a thicker cord than we have in 230v land, and that this thick cable could be a bit unwieldy for all day sanding. Hence those tools come with the lighter cord.

Obviously I can’t comment on how unwieldy this thicker cord is and weather or not the decision holds weight.
It certainly mocks the original design’s compatibility/ ease and of use.
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Alex

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Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2021, 05:31 AM »
I just remembered that we do have two cords here in Europe, we also have the stronger and stiffer green PUR cord, though it is an optional purchase and does not come as standard with the tools. I had one for a while, and I totally did not like it because it was so stiff.

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Offline Roachmill

  • Posts: 275
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2021, 06:33 AM »
The HK85 is probably my most power hungry portable tool (rated to 2300W) and it comes hardwired with a 2x1.5 lead. While it's not a limp piece of spaghetti, it's easily manageable (flexibility wise) IMO and I doubt I'd notice the same cable on a sander or anything connected to a hose. But, having to deal with the cord when most other tools take the plug-it lead already attached to a hose, it makes it slightly more of a chore to set up. Same goes for the HL850, RAS180 etc. It's a real 1st world problem  [wink]

Online mino

  • Posts: 193
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2021, 07:05 AM »
The appliances are actually sold with the "Europlug" which is a universal hybrid that works both with "French" and Schuko grounding arrangements.

No the Europlug is the small 2.5A plug that fits many different sockets.
Yeah. True.
It is not the official designation but it is colloquially referred to as such in the IT world and others as "Euro" plug, without the space.

Forgot the 2.5 one is actually officially designated this way..


Give it a rest guys. You are worst than a republican talking to a democrat.
A debate is how people RECONCILE their differences and misunderstandings and jointly achieve a better understanding of things, including each other. Language and the ensuing ability to debate and argue is what allowed Homo Sapiens Sapiens to invent a thing called a plug-it in the first place!

A forum is name for a place to debate and argue. In ancient Greece it was a physical place in each settlement dedicated for this purpose.
Alone, forced to discover/learn everything ourselves from own experience, we would be lost.

Unfortunately with the spread of virtual "social bubbles" on the social networks the societies are losing the ability to debate and argue.

Lets not apply that trend here and keep this a forum in its original meaning.

EDIT:
I sure learned a thing or two about the US system here and even the NL approaches as not all of "Europe" is the same.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 07:21 AM by mino »
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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1243
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2021, 10:27 AM »
The 3 conductor 1.5mm^2 cords on my imported 230V tools are very flexible.  The festool 1.31mm^2 plug it cord with 2 conductors is also very flexible, but I would say not as flexible as the bigger 1.5mm^2 cord, same for the 1.31mm cord on my DDF40.    All are extremely bendy, no one would think twice about them.   The cord on my US spec CT26 is very stiff. Probably more stiff than any cord I have around for anything.

It's not the conductor that drives this (1.31 vs 1.5), it's the insulation.   The US spec plug it cords are 105C, 300Volt insulation.  I have no idea what the Euro cords are because shockingly they don't list the temp rating or the voltage rating on the cord material. If they run very low temp rating wire in the walls there, I suspect this carries over to the cords and those 1.5mm^2 cords have much lower temp rating than they would if they were intended for the US.   Once you lower the temp ratings, cables can be made very flexible without using expensive materials.

I don't think either the 230V cords I have or the plug it cords would do well when it comes to hard environments, abrasion, etc.  The cord Alex pointed out looks like its intended to be used in such environments. That wire type looks to be targeted for areas were abrasion/wet/oils/etc is a concern.  It would certainly be more stiff, and if you are used to much more flexible cords.  I'd probably opt just to have some spare plug it cords around verses using the stiffer cord.  Nice thing with plug-it, a destroyed cable is a quick fix.

Updated: Checked the CT26,  it's a 14AWG/2.08mm^2,  105C/300V cable.   But it's SJTW (PVC), verses the rubber of the other cords.   

Be curious what a OF2200 has for cord, as it's non-removable. Clearly some of the change is when Festool brings stuff to the US, they have to make them legal/safe.  Thus they need to increase the wire size (15As requires 14AWG/2mm^2 cable, 1.5mm^2 for 15/16A is too small/illegal).  For the tools, they can do smaller, but since the CT has stuff plugged into it, then they have to be able to handle full 15A.  Not sure if 105C is a requirement for cords, quick look around the house is only finding 105C cords.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 10:58 AM by DeformedTree »

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2021, 12:08 PM »
For those curious what different parts of the world does.  Legrand has nice document going thru the different systems around the world.  It's a bit light on details and not always consistent, but overall pretty good.   It does have a mistake on the North American system, and refers to it as being 2 Phase, it's not.  They mean split phase.  This confusion is common to folks who live here too.

International Electrical Systems

In the end, no one solves. the problem radically different from the others.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7227
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2021, 12:12 PM »
Nice thing with plug-it, a destroyed cable is a quick fix.

I sincerely disagree here, a bad cord on a normal tool is 5 minutes work to repair for me, while I have to work for an hour to earn a new Plug-it cord. And then go to the shop to buy it.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1902
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2021, 12:20 PM »
Me, checking out this thread, thinking it's about 2 cords:

(Attachment Link)

LOL

Yeah, I'm done with this. There are no winners, and there was no intention on my part to say or claim one was better than the other. They evolved in differently due to different circumstances. Neither system is wrong and both work just fine and are safe when wired correctly.

Will one ever prevail? I don't know. We're still fighting the Imperial/Metric battle so I doubt it will be anytime soon.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 779
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2021, 12:22 PM »
Nice thing with plug-it, a destroyed cable is a quick fix.

I sincerely disagree here, a bad cord on a normal tool is 5 minutes work to repair for me, while I have to work for an hour to earn a new Plug-it cord. And then go to the shop to buy it.

But but but muh warranty  ;)

I like it for other reasons. Like the Germans say; Kein Kabelsalad am die Arbeidsplatz.  [cool]

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 779
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2021, 12:24 PM »
The 3 conductor 1.5mm^2 cords on my imported 230V tools are very flexible.  The festool 1.31mm^2 plug it cord with 2 conductors is also very flexible, but I would say not as flexible as the bigger 1.5mm^2 cord, same for the 1.31mm cord on my DDF40.    All are extremely bendy, no one would think twice about them.   The cord on my US spec CT26 is very stiff. Probably more stiff than any cord I have around for anything.

It's not the conductor that drives this (1.31 vs 1.5), it's the insulation.   The US spec plug it cords are 105C, 300Volt insulation.  I have no idea what the Euro cords are because shockingly they don't list the temp rating or the voltage rating on the cord material. If they run very low temp rating wire in the walls there, I suspect this carries over to the cords and those 1.5mm^2 cords have much lower temp rating than they would if they were intended for the US.   Once you lower the temp ratings, cables can be made very flexible without using expensive materials.

I don't think either the 230V cords I have or the plug it cords would do well when it comes to hard environments, abrasion, etc.  The cord Alex pointed out looks like its intended to be used in such environments. That wire type looks to be targeted for areas were abrasion/wet/oils/etc is a concern.  It would certainly be more stiff, and if you are used to much more flexible cords.  I'd probably opt just to have some spare plug it cords around verses using the stiffer cord.  Nice thing with plug-it, a destroyed cable is a quick fix.

Updated: Checked the CT26,  it's a 14AWG/2.08mm^2,  105C/300V cable.   But it's SJTW (PVC), verses the rubber of the other cords.   

Be curious what a OF2200 has for cord, as it's non-removable. Clearly some of the change is when Festool brings stuff to the US, they have to make them legal/safe.  Thus they need to increase the wire size (15As requires 14AWG/2mm^2 cable, 1.5mm^2 for 15/16A is too small/illegal).  For the tools, they can do smaller, but since the CT has stuff plugged into it, then they have to be able to handle full 15A.  Not sure if 105C is a requirement for cords, quick look around the house is only finding 105C cords.

Conductor does have a role in flexibility. There can be a difference in the amount of strands. Also see;
https://youtu.be/0aoNB6av4x0?t=44

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1243
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2021, 12:30 PM »
Nice thing with plug-it, a destroyed cable is a quick fix.

I sincerely disagree here, a bad cord on a normal tool is 5 minutes work to repair for me, while I have to work for an hour to earn a new Plug-it cord. And then go to the shop to buy it.

That's fair, but I was going with the idea that you have a spare around, swap and keep on working for the day.  No idea of prices of cords vs plug it cords, but I'm pretty sure the plug-it cord cost more.  At the same time, stores don't generally carry replacement cords for tools, I'm not going to go in and see the right cord for a dewalt or such.  I'd have to make a cord, which now if you are doing this in a work environment won't be legal.

Obviously if the plug it end was standard among tool companies, that would help things.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1243
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2021, 12:39 PM »

Conductor does have a role in flexibility. There can be a difference in the amount of strands. Also see;
https://youtu.be/0aoNB6av4x0?t=44

Sure, but in the context of this, there is not likely to be much of a difference in the stranding between the 2.  The insulations on the outside is going to be the dominant factor, maybe how the wires are run inside 2 vs 3 wires.   All are super flexible and no one is going to think much of one over the other.   But you go from the soft rubber to the PVC like the CT26 has, now you have a massive difference.  Higher temp ratings and stiffer wire/cable go hand in hand with addition of a lot of money being what can reverse the trend.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1243
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2021, 02:18 PM »
If you need 3-phase you just contact the power provider and that becomes installed.

Then you get the 207 phase-phase voltage? What do they charge to install that?

Overhere grid companies now charge about 300 bucks to screw in the two missing fuses if you have a single phase connection. (99% of them being wired 3-phase to the home, but single phase to the meter).

208V,   thus why you will see appliances with tables for them showing 208/220/240V on them.   We have the 120/208V and 277/480V system.   

the 120/208V stuff might get used some places liked I mentioned (apartments and such).

Cost to get 3 phase is all over the map.  If you are in an area with 3phase lines running thru it, where it's just a drop from the pole, then it might be free.  Things depend on utility and what you are doing, but getting connected could be free, could cost a couple grand.  Things like if it is an overhead, vs underground, etc will impact things.  Most folks don't have 3phase running by their home, so it's either a non option, or cheaper to by property near a 3phase line vs paying to get it extended to their property.  Soon as you have to start having poles installed, or digging, cost can go thru the roof (10s of thousands).   But if you are in an established neighborhood, getting a house connected is a short bit of work and a little bit of wire, I don't think most utilities even bother charging for that, the cost of the wire and the hour for the installer will be paid for in a few months of bills.  Mine was free for overhead, and a cost per foot cost for underground which varied on if you did direct burial or in conduit, size of service 100A/200A/300A/400A etc.  Adding a pole had a cost per pole if that was needed.  Didn't need a transformer added so no idea how that works.  If you ran your own conduit and they just had to pull it, it was cheaper.  I suspect most utilities will be similar.  Biggest change will be in rural areas where you will have your own transformer, and addition of a pole or 2 is very likely. All the same would apply to 3phase, but again, the key is if it is even an option where you live.  Most folks will not go down that road, and either convert 3phase machinery to 240V, or buy a phase convertor and have it take care of it as it will be cheaper/easier than getting 3phase to their house.

Online mino

  • Posts: 193
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2021, 06:27 AM »
208V,   thus why you will see appliances with tables for them showing 208/220/240V on them.   We have the 120/208V and 277/480V system.   

the 120/208V stuff might get used some places liked I mentioned (apartments and such).

Cost to get 3 phase is all over the map.  If you are in an area with 3phase lines running thru it, where it's just a drop from the pole, then it might be free.  Things depend on utility and what you are doing, but getting connected could be free, could cost a couple grand.  Things like if it is an overhead, vs underground, etc will impact things.  Most folks don't have 3phase running by their home, so it's either a non option, or cheaper to by property near a 3phase line vs paying to get it extended to their property.  Soon as you have to start having poles installed, or digging, cost can go thru the roof (10s of thousands).   But if you are in an established neighborhood, getting a house connected is a short bit of work and a little bit of wire, I don't think most utilities even bother charging for that, the cost of the wire and the hour for the installer will be paid for in a few months of bills.  Mine was free for overhead, and a cost per foot cost for underground which varied on if you did direct burial or in conduit, size of service 100A/200A/300A/400A etc.  Adding a pole had a cost per pole if that was needed.  Didn't need a transformer added so no idea how that works.  If you ran your own conduit and they just had to pull it, it was cheaper.  I suspect most utilities will be similar.  Biggest change will be in rural areas where you will have your own transformer, and addition of a pole or 2 is very likely. All the same would apply to 3phase, but again, the key is if it is even an option where you live.  Most folks will not go down that road, and either convert 3phase machinery to 240V, or buy a phase convertor and have it take care of it as it will be cheaper/easier than getting 3phase to their house.
I think this aspect is key why a "European" has difficulty understanding the "advantage" of 60A plugs/cabling at single-phase.

Since here pretty much everything is wired 3-phase on the distribution side, the only place where you see single-phase connections is apartment buildings with central heating where the building is wired 3-phase but individual flats may be single-phase down the line.

If 3-phase @similar to 230/3x400 voltages was ubiquitous, then the 60A plugs and related cable gauges will make much less /economical/ sense and be more of a weird specialty. Exactly as a European may see it (from own perspective).
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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1243
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2021, 10:20 AM »
So the 3Phase here is considered commercial, thus why it has limited availability. It's only for when you have very big loads.  The apartment building example comes up because they tend to be co-located in commercial neighborhoods, the tenants in side notice nothing, as they just see 120V plugs, they don't mess with anything that is 208.

While the cost to get connected to 3Phase here can be all over the map, the cost once connected is very real and very high. You are now a commercial customer, you pay for electricity at a much higher rate. Also just the wiring gets more expensive, the meters, the panels, it gets pricey as now you are using commercial stuff.

If you are an industrial facility with lots of large motors/machines, 3Phase makes more sense.  The 277/480 can be nice just for things like running lights at 277V.  In a residential application, not so much.  Power is still Power no matter how you do it.  You still have large powerful items either way.

The following is an example of something that straddles both worlds, the same item can be connected to 3x 240V circuits, or to all 3 legs of a 208V circuit.  While not common, these are becoming more common as there is a shift to tankless.  Note the 2 biggest units 29 and 36kW.  These are the min size you would need for a small house in the northern half of the country.   1PH or 3PH you still need a lot of power and a lot of amps.  But with the 3Phase unit you loose power because of the lower voltage.  3PH may sound good, but it doesn't work to any benefit. 

WH Spec

Nothing is going to change the wire size situation. And it's just not a real concern. 208,230,240,277V  you are dealing with similar amps, thus similar wire sizes.  For the Same Power in the US, the EU folks pull slightly more amps than the US, if someone is on a 208V setup, then they have more amp draw, or as shown, just loss of power. If US houses suddenly got 277/480, you pull a bit less amps than today on the 277V side of things.

Looking at various places around the world, it looks like most who do 3 phase distribution still just run a single phase to each house, so the end result for homes is no different than the US.  It does look the issues of balancing loads though becomes more of a problem with those systems.  It's not much of an issue here, since it's single phase, and big loads are 240. The small amount of loading from the 120V side naturally works out as the circuits in the home alternate which side they are on.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 10:27 AM by DeformedTree »

Online mino

  • Posts: 193
Re: 2 different Festool power cords.???
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2021, 01:13 PM »
While the cost to get connected to 3Phase here can be all over the map, the cost once connected is very real and very high.
Yeah, makes sense the high-amperage is prevalent if that is the only economical way to get higher load devices to work at sensible costs for the casual residential customer.

That is simply the price one has to pay for having a lower general voltage. It becomes too low for general industrial use, in turn splitting the market.

As 230/400 provides enough power for (light)industrial use, we do not have a separate "commercial" standard on the voltages. Above the 3x400 companies here would be in the "having own 10kV-class transformer" territory with the secondary voltage again 3x400V.
Small businesses are predominantly fine with 3x40A@400V which is the common "big" connection here that is available to residential as well as commercial users as the market is unified on the low voltages aspect.

An interesting discussion indeed.
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