Author Topic: 2 different Festool power cords.??? (Read 9024 times)

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #30 on:** January 19, 2021, 06:45 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 18, 2021, 07:07 PM

For the big tools like the OF2200, Festool could have given it a 20A plug.

Quote

It doesn't? It has a 15A plug? So the US gets a nerfed OF2200? OF1650?

I don't know about the OF2200, but the old CT22 that we used to have had a 20A plug on it. This made sense to me because you are drawing power for both the CT and the tool plugged into it from the same plug, but is wasn't without it's problems. One of the things that was always supposed to be in the Systainer that stayed with the CT22 was an adaptor so it could be used in places that didn't have 20A outlets. That happened quite a bit.
My new CT26, which is only about a year old, has the much more common 15A plug.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #31 on:** January 19, 2021, 07:11 PM »

Quote from: mino on January 19, 2021, 06:12 PM

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM
Your wiring sounds complicated.
Not really.

For home use, you basically have 2 "gauges" as you would say in the US: (but we use millimeters)
- 1,5 mm2 for the occasional low-current fixed installations (basically lights only)
- 2.5 mm2 for any installations where sockets are installed (as these are 16A by default)

Now, as mentioned, the real technical property of an installation is impedance (to ensure breaker reaction) and temperature generation.

In Europe, we mostly have brick or concrete houses, so heat generation is a moot point: Like totally moot as a wire embedded in concrete or plaster has a very good heat transfer media.

For wood/plaster houses which are rare, there is actually separate, stricter, standards for cabling as the limited heat dissipation in wood buildings is taken into account.

I can see how this can be confusing for a US based person - you standards assume a "wooden house" with all its fire risks while a typical European house would have the installation either embedded in concrete or brick wall, making the standards accommodate that as fire hazard (in the installation itself) is pretty much non-existent and only the endpoints like breaker boxes or sockets are a concern there.

Either way, any qualified electrician is primarily concerned about impedance. And that is more about distance and installation topology than cable "gauge" in practice. Second comes cable cooling/heat generation, but that is usually non-issue outside wooden houses which are rare so have a special standard.

Our electrical code assumes nothing about the construction of the house. Our electrical code concerns the wiring. Sizing is based on the wire, it's insulation. We use the same code for a small basic house, garden shed as we do in a sky scrapper, an industrial plant, bomb shelter, etc. It's all NEC. Generally the residential building code cuts out stuff that doesn't apply to a house, but it's all the same. Most homes don't need to be concerned with explosion proof construction, gigawatts of power transmission, etc.

Most residential is prescriptive, thus there is a clear simple path for stuff, such as particular gauges of a particular type of wire for various applications. Just like framing, plumbing, etc in code. So folks don't have to have an engineer review the design, everyone knows it works. But you can deviate if you want, and then you get into endless tables for all types of wire made, the ampacities for different temperature ratings, when you can use what, de-rates for different applications, so on and so forth.

It's illegal to embed a wire in plaster/concrete/etc. It must be protected in conduit if in masonry material like that. Wiring is either in conduit, or it's not. For electrical power transmission, NM-B, UF (a direct burial in dirt spec), and some SE (service entry) cable is design to be run not within conduit. Everything else is in conduit, the sizing doesn't care what is around the conduit (free air, dirt, concrete, fruit cake). Most residential wiring is not in conduit. Other than the Chicago thing, residential only tends to start going conduit in places like apartment buildings, high rises, etc. You can have a big wire in a big conduit, moving just a few amps, and the conduit is buried in the ground (55F), you can't just say "it's fine, the ground is cold".

We don't look at impedance, there is no point. We don't size our stuff so dangerously. If you have a bad connection, you will notice the lights dim, voltage drops, etc. Breakers will kick. You are either pulling too many amps for the breaker or you're not. It doesn't care what is down stream of it. It's the "weak link" not the wire.

There is only 1 topology, we don't have ring bus's or any of those problematic issues. We have branch circuits, a limited number of items on each circuit. Length of a wire run is almost never an issue. You can only get so far from a panel in a house, and even houses with one circuit wrapping around the house several times, you don't see issues. Wires are sized to handled the amps of the circuit and stay within the temperature limits of the wire. Breakers are sized to protect the wire. If someone has some concern due to distance, they might bump up the size. As mentioned, some folks will just wire everything with 12gauge both for a level of simplicity and extra margin, you can always have a smaller breaker. Hard to access wires later, so often best to install bigger than needed, and then just install a smaller breaker. Common for ranges, ovens, etc. Run 6 gauge so you could support 50-60A, but if someone installs a unit that only needs a 40A breaker, it just means more margin. The cost difference is pretty minimal verses the headaches later.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #32 on:** January 19, 2021, 07:52 PM »

I remember back before polarized plugs in the house where I grew up. The house I live in now had them too until a major remodel in '06.
I still have an old 4 prong phone socket in the kitchen, but it hasn't worked for years.

Bob D. · « **Reply #33 on:** January 19, 2021, 09:37 PM »

"So your common electric water kettle is like 1600W?"

Yours probably is too.

Watts is watts

1600W/120V = 13.3A
1600W/240V = 6.66A

Doesn't use any more power (watts) than a 240v kettle.

One of the reasons for the difference in secondary voltages is that when the power distribution system was first developed here by Westinghouse and Tesla much of the country was still building out and space for the necessary equipment was incorporated into new construction and communities. In Europe most places were already built up and electric systems were added to existing homes and other structures. Your cities, at least what I have seen in many of them, appear to be more tightly packed, much higher population density, leaving little room for transmission and distribution equipment. A higher primary/secondary voltage helps overcome this because the power can be pushed much further down the wire from the last transformer. In NA where there was plenty of room to grow this was not necessary. That and migrating over from Edisons' inadequate DC system which was trying to scratch out a start in New York and New Jersey might have something to do with it too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_currents

The utility that is now ConEd in New York was probably the first electric utility in the World, but surely in North America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_Edison

Also, in NA homes were/are more widely spread out. Running high secondary lines of 4 or 12KV on the lines lets power travel further with less loss. Sending power over great distances requires even higher voltage. We (NA) run some 500KV or even greater voltage lines that send power across multiple states. In the NA some of the 'local' RTOs cover areas almost as large as Europe. The interconnected utilities send power to each other as needed to cover local peak demands, outages, and units that are taken off line for maintenance. Sometimes that power 'travels' 500 miles or more. The PJM Interconnection where I live covers 13 states and Washington DC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PJM_Interconnection .

What's an RTO? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_transmission_organization_(North_America)

Out west in middle America power generation facilities are widely spread out. The European distribution system would not work as well there plus it costs more to build out.

You might find this comparison of the two systems interesting:

https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/north-american-versus-european-distribution-systems

DeformedTree · « **Reply #34 on:** January 19, 2021, 10:19 PM »

Some good points Bob.

Most of US housing stock is post electrification. The rural areas didn't get power till FDR. A good simple wiki page on it REA . You can see there that even in those early days, the basics were locked in. a 60A panel (still common, but now 100A min), a big plug for the range 60A, 20A for kitchen plugs, 15A for lights. For the 1930s, this was pretty good and pretty forward looking. We still wire up 60A plug for range/oven/cooktop, still have 20A plugs for kitchen, still do lights at 15A. We just found more stuff to add over time, thus 200A service being the norm now.

Each house having a transformer is normal once you leave town. The other part is no gas service, these areas never had it, never will. A durable, safe, reliable electrical system has always been the priority. And as you mention, we were not trying to retrofit a castle, or a 400 year old building.

No one wants a sensitive, touchy electrical system. It's to be simple, and easy for anyone to work on. A farmer isn't going to call an electrician. This is where items like arc fault breakers got a bad rap, some early ones had some issues, people wanted no part of them.

Safe and Simple, best way to do that is big wires, good insulation on them, low voltages.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #35 on:** January 19, 2021, 11:57 PM »

On the subject of running the OF2200 on a 15A circuit.

2200/120 = 18.33A, yes this is more than 15. But looking at trip curve for a pretty typical breaker found in the US, at 18.33A, it will take about 3-4minutes to kick the breaker. This matches my experience with having too much stuff plugged in a circuit at once, like a microwave plus something else.

I doubt many people will ever find themselves running and OF2200 at full power for over 4 minutes straight. In a CMS configuration, someone might, and that very well is why Festool didn't want folks doing that combination.

You won't over heat the wire in that time frame. The ampacity for 14gauge wire is much higher than that, it's a limit of the insulation on it. The 90C insulation means it could handle 25A, so this is never remotely approached. If you did start pulling those amps, the breaker would kick in less than a minute.

Far as kettles, we just heat water with microwaves.

Coen · « **Reply #36 on:** January 20, 2021, 11:35 AM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM

Far as the plugs, you say it's easy, to shock yourself, yet we don't seam to shock ourselves with them. You have to actively try.

All the cases it does happen it's someone with a US plug, not with a Europlug.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM

Your wiring sounds complicated.

Then you didn't listen well. The whole house here is wired with exactly 4 types of wire;
Blue 2,5mm^2 (Neutral)
Brown 2,5mm^2 (Phase)
Yellow/Green 2,5mm^2 (Earth)
Black 1,5mm^2 (in between switches and individual ligts)

And since I rewired it also black+white stripe (to keep track of what is what with circuits that halve lamps that can be switched from 2-3 spots) and orange for the coupled smoke detectors. In the kitchen is an outlet for 3-phase 16A (11,1 kW); no different gauges needed.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM

For houses, they are almost always done with NM-B (aka romex trade name). It's a PVC sleeved cable. You can do wires in conduit as well, in some areas it's required (Chicago). We don't have to go thru harmonizing, all of north America, the Caribbean, and parts of south America use the NEC (national electric code) and it's been unchanged on the core parts forever.

"Don't have to"... lol it's a mess. You have a whole list of different outlets lol, a list of different gauges of wiring...

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM

Most of house is 14 gauge NM-B. Lights, plugs, etc. For circuits required to be 20A, you use 12 gauge. We also have some limited stuff such as dryers, air conditioners that are general 30A/240V, so run with 10 gauge.

So three different gauges where we use ONE.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM

A few things might go 8 gauge if 40A,

Oh, so four different gauges.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM

and items like stoves, ovens, etc will get 6 Gauge (55Amps).

Oh, five. :O. So electricians on service call have a gigantic amount of different stuff in their van, which then has to be supersized, causing more costs for everyone.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM

These bigger items are almost always 240V, unless they are dual voltage 240/120V like a dryer. Same wire for all, NM-B. 90C rated, 600Volt insulation. It used to be 60C rated, so sizing wise it is still treated as 60C, even though the wire is now higher rating. It was found that heat from light bulbs, combined with increase in insulation decades ago made the 60C rating too low, so they increased it, but didn't want folks changing the wire size. You can't run NM-B in conduit, has to be individual strands, which is the same wire really. Various rules on conduit fill to prevent over heating.

Conduit fill rate is usually about mechanical stresses during installation.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM

Your gauge wire and it's temp rating is simply not legal. Way too unsafe/undersized.

Lol no.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM

You guys are fearing amps because your wire is undersized.

Lol it's not.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM

You would need to be 12 gauge in the US to do 16A with a 60C insulation (but of course 60C insulation is not legal). Our wires don't get hot when running at full amperage.

Probably because your voltage drop is much worse. Losing 2V on a 230V circuit is only about 1% where on 110V circuit it would be 2%. If you want to size for the same percentage loss, you would have to increase cross section four times with 110V vs 230V.

Or you just use inferior stuff with lower temp rating, that is possible too. Otherwise it makes no sense to require 4mm^2 with 16A.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 07:11 PM

Quote from: mino on January 19, 2021, 06:12 PM
Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 01:03 PM
Your wiring sounds complicated.
Not really.

For home use, you basically have 2 "gauges" as you would say in the US: (but we use millimeters)
- 1,5 mm2 for the occasional low-current fixed installations (basically lights only)
- 2.5 mm2 for any installations where sockets are installed (as these are 16A by default)

Now, as mentioned, the real technical property of an installation is impedance (to ensure breaker reaction) and temperature generation.

In Europe, we mostly have brick or concrete houses, so heat generation is a moot point: Like totally moot as a wire embedded in concrete or plaster has a very good heat transfer media.

For wood/plaster houses which are rare, there is actually separate, stricter, standards for cabling as the limited heat dissipation in wood buildings is taken into account.

I can see how this can be confusing for a US based person - you standards assume a "wooden house" with all its fire risks while a typical European house would have the installation either embedded in concrete or brick wall, making the standards accommodate that as fire hazard (in the installation itself) is pretty much non-existent and only the endpoints like breaker boxes or sockets are a concern there.

Either way, any qualified electrician is primarily concerned about impedance. And that is more about distance and installation topology than cable "gauge" in practice. Second comes cable cooling/heat generation, but that is usually non-issue outside wooden houses which are rare so have a special standard.

Our electrical code assumes nothing about the construction of the house. Our electrical code concerns the wiring. Sizing is based on the wire, it's insulation. We use the same code for a small basic house, garden shed as we do in a sky scrapper, an industrial plant, bomb shelter, etc. It's all NEC. Generally the residential building code cuts out stuff that doesn't apply to a house, but it's all the same. Most homes don't need to be concerned with explosion proof construction, gigawatts of power transmission, etc.

We have one norm that covers all, so no difference there.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 07:11 PM

Most residential is prescriptive, thus there is a clear simple path for stuff, such as particular gauges of a particular type of wire for various applications. Just like framing, plumbing, etc in code. So folks don't have to have an engineer review the design, everyone knows it works. But you can deviate if you want, and then you get into endless tables for all types of wire made, the ampacities for different temperature ratings, when you can use what, de-rates for different applications, so on and so forth.

We have the same. There is the norm, that rules all, and there is simplified version based on that which is actually a bit more readable that covers the 99%.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 07:11 PM

It's illegal to embed a wire in plaster/concrete/etc.

Same here. Where; wire is something different than cable.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 07:11 PM

It must be protected in conduit if in masonry material like that. Wiring is either in conduit, or it's not. For electrical power transmission, NM-B, UF (a direct burial in dirt spec), and some SE (service entry) cable is design to be run not within conduit. Everything else is in conduit, the sizing doesn't care what is around the conduit (free air, dirt, concrete, fruit cake). Most residential wiring is not in conduit. Other than the Chicago thing, residential only tends to start going conduit in places like apartment buildings, high rises, etc. You can have a big wire in a big conduit, moving just a few amps, and the conduit is buried in the ground (55F), you can't just say "it's fine, the ground is cold".

And not using conduit means a big PITA when something breaks down. Sadly, the NL norm was weakened to be more in line with Ze Germans to allow for cable in plaster...

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 07:11 PM

We don't look at impedance, there is no point. We don't size our stuff so dangerously. If you have a bad connection, you will notice the lights dim, voltage drops, etc. Breakers will kick. You are either pulling too many amps for the breaker or you're not. It doesn't care what is down stream of it. It's the "weak link" not the wire.

Not looking at impedance is just dumb. At any point in the circuit you must be able to achieve a shortcircuit current that exceeds the upper limit of where the magnetic trip of the breaker engages.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 07:11 PM

There is only 1 topology, we don't have ring bus's or any of those problematic issues.

Rings is something crazy from the Brits. I don't think anyone else uses that.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 07:11 PM

We have branch circuits, a limited number of items on each circuit. Length of a wire run is almost never an issue. You can only get so far from a panel in a house, and even houses with one circuit wrapping around the house several times, you don't see issues. Wires are sized to handled the amps of the circuit and stay within the temperature limits of the wire. Breakers are sized to protect the wire. If someone has some concern due to distance, they might bump up the size. As mentioned, some folks will just wire everything with 12gauge both for a level of simplicity and extra margin, you can always have a smaller breaker.

Yeah, because drops become a way bigger issue with 110V

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 19, 2021, 07:11 PM

Hard to access wires later, so often best to install bigger than needed, and then just install a smaller breaker. Common for ranges, ovens, etc. Run 6 gauge so you could support 50-60A, but if someone installs a unit that only needs a 40A breaker, it just means more margin. The cost difference is pretty minimal verses the headaches later.

Access to wiring becomes an issue if you don't use conduit. Good thing in NL it's 99% conduit. Drill a hole in the wrong place? > Pull wires out of conduit, replace. All done in 5 minutes, no need to cut open the wall.

Coen · « **Reply #37 on:** January 20, 2021, 12:05 PM »

Quote from: Bob D. on January 19, 2021, 09:37 PM

"So your common electric water kettle is like 1600W?"

Yours probably is too.

No Bob. I already said the common water kettle here is 2200W. 3000W ones are also available, but the more common 2200W assures it's compatible with ancient 10A circuits too.

Quote from: Bob D. on January 19, 2021, 09:37 PM

Watts is watts

1600W/120V = 13.3A
1600W/240V = 6.66A
Doesn't use any more power (watts) than a 240v kettle.

2200/110 = 20A... RIP compatibility with 15A socket.
2200/230 = 9,6A... works on any circuit, even combined with the toaster on a regular 16A circuit.

Quote from: Bob D. on January 19, 2021, 09:37 PM

One of the reasons for the difference in secondary voltages is that when the power distribution system was first developed here by Westinghouse and Tesla much of the country was still building out and space for the necessary equipment was incorporated into new construction and communities. In Europe most places were already built up and electric systems were added to existing homes and other structures. Your cities, at least what I have seen in many of them, appear to be more tightly packed, much higher population density, leaving little room for transmission and distribution equipment. A higher primary/secondary voltage helps overcome this because the power can be pushed much further down the wire from the last transformer. In NA where there was plenty of room to grow this was not necessary. That and migrating over from Edisons' inadequate DC system which was trying to scratch out a start in New York and New Jersey might have something to do with it too.

With 230V and same cable going to houses you simply need less transformers. I don't know where you visited, but in NL the infra is pretty invisible since about everything <110 kV is under the ground and even some 110 kV is underground. The Germans have more above ground.

Quote from: Bob D. on January 19, 2021, 09:37 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_currents

The utility that is now ConEd in New York was probably the first electric utility in the World, but surely in North America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_Edison

Also, in NA homes were/are more widely spread out. Running high secondary lines of 4 or 12KV on the lines lets power travel further with less loss. Sending power over great distances requires even higher voltage. We (NA) run some 500KV or even greater voltage lines that send power across multiple states. In the NA some of the 'local' RTOs cover areas almost as large as Europe. The interconnected utilities send power to each other as needed to cover local peak demands, outages, and units that are taken off line for maintenance. Sometimes that power 'travels' 500 miles or more. The PJM Interconnection where I live covers 13 states and Washington DC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PJM_Interconnection .

What's an RTO? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_transmission_organization_(North_America)

In NL we import and export to Norway over 500 kV DC cable at the bottom of the sea. Whole of mainland Europe is connected with ~ 380 kV.

Quote from: Bob D. on January 19, 2021, 09:37 PM

Out west in middle America power generation facilities are widely spread out. The European distribution system would not work as well there plus it costs more to build out.

You might find this comparison of the two systems interesting:

https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/north-american-versus-european-distribution-systems

Haha, it says the same thing I posted above; voltage drop is a way bigger issue with 110V as with 230V. So mainly the distribution system was limited in choices by the choice of 110V.

The cost header of that page is just wrong. One-time installation cost might be higher, but then service and longtime costs due to losses add up over time to a giant (relative) advantage for 230V.

This part is also funny;

Quote

Westinghouse engineers contended that both 240/480-V three-wire single-phase and 265/460-V four-wire three-phase secondaries provide cost advantages over a similar 120/240-V three-wire secondary (Lawrence and Griscom, 1956; Lokay and Zimmerman, 1956). Higher secondary voltages do not force higher utilization voltages; a small transformer at each house converts 240 or 265 V to 120 V for lighting and standard outlet use (air conditioners and major appliances can be served directly without the extra transformation).

I have to give credit for one part; 110V incandescent lamps of the same power are more bump-resistant than their 230V nephews. But those lamps are going the way of the Dodo anyway.

SRSemenza · « **Reply #38 on:** January 20, 2021, 12:47 PM »

Soooo, yeeaahh, ....................................... Festool has two different size Plug-It cords in the US.

Seth

DeformedTree · « **Reply #39 on:** January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM »

Coen, you are confusing using the right solution, verses trying to bend everything around using 1 thing. Trying to find ways to make everything work on one gauge wire is down right silly and impractical. Same for the sockets. We could do as you do there. We could get rid of our high current receptacles and hardwire things in, but that would be a step backwards. We could run multiple parallel wires to get the same power to a location without changing wire size, but that's wasteful verses just using the correct size wire. We do have some instances were this is done. Some items with multiple heating elements do this, such as tankless water heaters, they might have 2-3 parallel circuits. Often this is because they are imported products from Europe, so it's just the 3phase design repurposed. Electric heating in HVAC might do similar as well. Sure, we could probably get to 1 wire size, but we don't want to run 6awg for everything.

We don't do as you keep describing since again, it's unsafe, and there is no reason to. Just run the correct size wire. Stop limiting yourself by trying to make everything work back to one thing.

Our wiring isn't hard at all. You are imagining problems that don't exist. We don't have voltage drop issues. We run 240V power to houses, you run 230V power to houses. In the run lengths within a home that are 110V, the voltage drop will not be noticed, also we run properly sized wire. Your wires are too small.

Maybe you have different breakers than us. We use Magnetic-Thermal breakers. You either pull too many amps for too long to trigger it thermal, or you have a short/inrush that trips the magnetic. We have Arc fault breakers that detect arcs and trip them too. We don't test for impedance because it doesn't change if the breaker will trip or not. Any such reliance is flawed. You have just made the system to complicated and sensitive, the impedance isn't going to be static anyway.

Some things in Europe are done well and could be said better than N.A. . Electrical isn't one of them. You will never get the engineers, safety official, etc that create NEC code to head in the direction of Europe.

The elements of what you have over there, exist here, they just aren't commonly used for various reasons. But we aren't going to go lowering temperature ratings on wires, reducing the size of wires, running them at the limits of their capacities. 3 Phase distribution to homes is neat, and we have such systems, they just aren't widespread as there isn't as big of a benefit as some folks think.

We use the right solutions for the problem. Safety rules all in US electrical. Saving a few bucks using smaller wires, yet increasing the fire risk is not something that will happen. Running higher voltages, thus needing even more precautions when it comes to insulation/isolation, verses just pulling some more amps thru a bigger wire is not a change that will happen.

Thru this thread, going back to the 2 cord sizes, it goes back to there being no reason for the smaller gauge cord, was festool just trying to get to a smaller wire size because they thought that was better? Or thoughts on the Kapex saga with saws burning up.

Alex · « **Reply #40 on:** January 20, 2021, 04:01 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

Thru this thread, going back to the 2 cord sizes, it goes back to there being no reason for the smaller gauge cord, was festool just trying to get to a smaller wire size because they thought that was better?

Hmm, you just wrote a whole essay to justify all your different wire gauges, and when Festool has two for their cords it's suddenly bad? Or does that fit within your argumentation that Eurpeans do electricity all wrong? Festool's just trying to adapt to the American market. That's why you get two, and we poor Europeans just get one to keep it simple for us.

SRSemenza · « **Reply #41 on:** January 20, 2021, 04:40 PM »

Quote from: Alex on January 20, 2021, 04:01 PM

Hmm, you just wrote a whole essay to justify all your different wire gauges, and when Festool has two for their cords it's suddenly bad? Or does that fit within your argumentation that Eurpeans do electricity all wrong? Festool's just trying to adapt to the American market. That's why you get two, and we poor Europeans just get one to keep it simple for us.

Except there is no good reason to have to use two different cords to adapt to the US market. The single heavier gauge would do the job. And if the lighter gauge had never existed here, very few if any users would even be thinking or talking about it.

It is just dumb, regardless of the true reason.

Seth

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #42 on:** January 20, 2021, 04:46 PM »

Quote from: Alex on January 20, 2021, 04:01 PM

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM
Thru this thread, going back to the 2 cord sizes, it goes back to there being no reason for the smaller gauge cord, was festool just trying to get to a smaller wire size because they thought that was better?

Hmm, you just wrote a whole essay to justify all your different wire gauges, and when Festool has two for their cords it's suddenly bad? Or does that fit within your argumentation that Eurpeans do electricity all wrong? Festool's just trying to adapt to the American market. That's why you get two, and we poor Europeans just get one to keep it simple for us.

Yup, we only got one, but if we had to have two, that would have been ok too.

Let me give you an example:
Some yrs back I was in the parent group in my boys’ kindergarten, and this particular day we were preparing the kids’ celebration of our national day, right there in the kindergartens kitchen.
We were heating water in a very large pan in order to serve sausages (Hot Dogs) I stood at the range with my back to the other (adults..) who prepared hot water in water boilers to be poured into the large pan when boiling. That’s was ok, until someone thought that 3 boilers works faster.. I suddenly smelled danger; a unmistakable smell of burning plastic from behind me. I quickly turned around and started to move people chatting and not paying attention to what was happening. I soon saw three 2000W+ boilers hooked in series on a short 3 socket extension with wiring meant for a fraction of the load it now carried. The lead just below the receptacle on the wall was dripping plastic from its outer shield... I immediately shouted for people to move away, and carefully pinched two fingers around the socket and carefully pulled it out slowly (same as our Euro socket for Festool here, ungrounded) (these water kettles has ground (Shuko) - and shall not be used on non ground receptacles). It was a very, very close call before someone had touched the wire. I probably saved someone’s health of some kind that day.
But, what was maybe the worst, only one of maybe 6 persons realised the danger. The rest went; oh, ok, and moved on - one even trying to put another of the same poor extensions to replace the one that melted. I just said no!, just put the lead from the kettle directly into the wall receptacle.

So, yeah. If someone directs a proper cord, that’s all ok.

But, FT could have supplied only one cord. But it’s probably a matter of cost - as the the thinnest might be similar or the same as the euro cord, but not the end plug.

mino · « **Reply #43 on:** January 20, 2021, 04:50 PM »

Quote from: Coen on January 20, 2021, 11:35 AM

And not using conduit means a big PITA when something breaks down. Sadly, the NL norm was weakened to be more in line with Ze Germans to allow for cable in plaster...

I really should not got more in this thread, but you are not correct with the "embed in plaster/concrete/masonry" being allowed or even preferred for cost/simplicity reason. I though so first too, but the reason is actually coming from the safety/reliability side. The embedded cables are harder to service, but the embedding is supposed to ensure they never (think hundreds of years) need to be serviced in the first place.

The thing is that a cable placed directly -inside- an inflammable full /not hollow/ wall like concrete or masonry is BETTER and SAFER than anything else. This is because the cable is fully supported, had high-efficiency contact cooling and even should the cable fill decompose over a couple hundred years the mere fact the cable cannot (physically) move will ensure it will still work "as new".

And about the standard you are actually wrong.
There are special installation rules about electric installations over flammable materials. These are still valid in a brick house with embedded cabling, they just do not apply logically.

Sure, they are in the same standard, but my point was that many new as well as old installations in Europe (I am liberal in "Europe", not talking Czech only) simply do not/did not need higher "gauges" as firstly the higher voltage means about 1/4 the heat generation at same appliance power and secondly, if your cable is literally embedded in inflammable material which is a heat-conductor like masonry is, heat becomes a non-issue. One simply designs for impedance.

---

We need to keep in mind that standard are here NOT to make money for copper producers. There are here to set a MINIMUM requirement that fulfills the function and is safe. This is always a balance. US installs are skewed in the "safer voltage" which allows unprotected bare wires in NEAM plugs etc. But pay with a much higher installation material costs and/or higher fire risks. These days (think last 100 years or so) it is only the higher costs.

European installs go more for the efficiency side which gives a generally simpler/cheaper (materially) installs and appliances. Then this is compensated by fully-protected plugs and additional safety precautions. Today this works out very well.

Overall, the 230V/400V 3-phase system IS superior on the pure technical/efficiency level. This is as simple as it gets as physics is a b*** and does not leave room for interpretation.

BUT, when we look at the overall solution to the problem - "how to deliver power to the point of consumption" - then NEITHER system is superior as both take different trade-offs to achieve the same general level of service and safety.

This was not so in the past, but is today. Especially with ubiquitous fully grounded installs with no PEN and RCDs being prevalent even where not mandated.

I would argue, that the 110V/240V system WAS superior on the safety side up until about the 50s/60s when the actual protection measures we have today were either not available or were not mandated.

Today, the safety aspect is a non-issue on either system which leaves the efficiency only and slants the weights in direction of the 230/400 system.

My (last) 2 cents.

Alex · « **Reply #44 on:** January 20, 2021, 04:57 PM »

Quote from: SRSemenza on January 20, 2021, 04:40 PM

Except there is no good reason to have to use two different cords to adapt to the US market. The single heavier gauge would do the job. And if the lighter gauge had never existed here, very few if any users would even be thinking or talking about it.

It is just dumb, regardless of the true reason.

Yeah, I know Seth, I was just poking a bit of fun at DeformedTree's defense of the American system as more diverse while to me it seems unnecessarily complicated, just like the thing with the two Festool cords. Maybe it can be done, but sometimes you have to ask why you should? Too complicated is not always a benefit.

Quote from: FestitaMakool on January 20, 2021, 04:46 PM

I soon saw three 2000W+ boilers hooked in series on a short 3 socket extension with wiring meant for a fraction of the load it now carried. The lead just below the receptacle on the wall was dripping plastic from its outer shield...

But, FT could have supplied only one cord. But it’s probably a matter of cost - as the the thinnest might be similar or the same as the euro cord, but not the end plug.

I thought you had more or less the same 220 volt system as in Germany and Holland. Your breaker should never allow a pull of 6000+ watts. A 16 amp breaker on 220 only allowes a maximum of around 3600 watt. Something was seriously wrong with that system there.

As for the cord, I don't get it either. That little bit of extra coper in the cord should be of no significance. Like, a few cents on a $400 tool.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #45 on:** January 20, 2021, 05:35 PM »

You’re right Alex, I think it’s exact the same system. A 16Ah circuit shall not carry more than 3600 Watts. It was a 16Ah circuit, I notified the staff about it and asked them to have it checked.
Some boilers can vary the draw, it could have been luck that they pulled differently, but I lean towards a circuit breaker fault. I did not get any feedback on my concern, but I should have persuaded so in retro perspective.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #46 on:** January 20, 2021, 06:54 PM »

I'm sure it would turn into either a logistics problem or one more reason for the haters to complain about the cost of the tools in the first place, but why not sell the tools without the cord at all? It would only ever be an issue with the first one. You retailer would just ask if you need one. Get the higher amp rated one in the first place and never think about it again.
As I have said before, one of the first things I do with a new tool is take the plug-it cable out of the Systainer and store it with the other 8 or 10 that I already don't use.
Part of the beauty of the system is the plug-it cable's ability to swap between tools, so you really are only ever using one. So why own one for each tool?
Ok, maybe an extra one for the Kapex, since it's stationary, or one of the bigger routers, if it's table mounted. Either way, you only buy the amount you actually use.
I do really wish the RAS115 was plug-it.

Coen · « **Reply #47 on:** January 20, 2021, 07:12 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

Coen, you are confusing using the right solution, verses trying to bend everything around using 1 thing. Trying to find ways to make everything work on one gauge wire is down right silly and impractical.

No, it's actually not silly and also very practical. Below 1,5mm^2 you reach the area where you don't want to get smaller because stuff breaks too easily from mechanical stresses. Go just 1mm^2 up and you're already fine for just about everything in a household. That leaves the cooktop. Use 3-phase and voila; everything works just fine with 2,5mm^2. Minimal amound of different wires in the van.

What you do is bend everything to fit in 110V. And as it turns out... it's rather impractical.

Also; how is using one gauge now impractical but Festool using two different gauges impractical at the same time? (Thx @Alex )

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

Same for the sockets. We could do as you do there. We could get rid of our high current receptacles and hardwire things in, but that would be a step backwards.

Use 230/400 and voila; all those problems are gone because a 15A socket will be fine for about everything.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

We could run multiple parallel wires to get the same power to a location without changing wire size, but that's wasteful verses just using the correct size wire. We do have some instances were this is done. Some items with multiple heating elements do this, such as tankless water heaters, they might have 2-3 parallel circuits.

The waste is not in the European system. Let's figure it out; a 11 kW heater here is connected with 3-phase 16A, requiring a grand total of 4 wires (to include earth). But let's be fair; almost always the neutral is used too, so five wires of 2,5mm^2. Rolls of 100m of those fit in a Systainer IV with room to spare...

You connect the 11 kW heater in a 50A circuit requiring what? 3x16mm^2? So per meter length you use almost 4x the copper. Your voltage losses will be 2,2 as small, but current being 3 times as high you still lose 50% more in the wiring. Soooo... it won't fit in the same 19mm conduit (3/4" if you like..), it uses 4x the copper and has 50% more losses. Tell me again what is more wastefull?

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

Often this is because they are imported products from Europe, so it's just the 3phase design repurposed. Electric heating in HVAC might do similar as well. Sure, we could probably get to 1 wire size, but we don't want to run 6awg for everything.

I am not saying you have to use 1 wire size. My point is that your mess with different wire sizes is a consequence of using the wrong voltage. If you switch over to 230V and 3-phase, the wire size issue will just melt away.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

We don't do as you keep describing since again, it's unsafe, and there is no reason to. Just run the correct size wire. Stop limiting yourself by trying to make everything work back to one thing.

What we do is perfectly safe. In addition to that the van can be one meter shorter / lower, leading to less "traffic accidents".

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

Our wiring isn't hard at all. You are imagining problems that don't exist.

Well, two different gauges being a problem was the whole reason for this topic. So is it a problem or not?

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

We don't have voltage drop issues. We run 240V power to houses, you run 230V power to houses. In the run lengths within a home that are 110V, the voltage drop will not be noticed, also we run properly sized wire. Your wires are too small.

You do know that for same power transported with half the voltage you need four times the wire cross section to get the same relative voltage drop.... right? So that works out to 10mm^2 for you where we use 2,5mm^2. Seems you are using too small wires!

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

Maybe you have different breakers than us. We use Magnetic-Thermal breakers. You either pull too many amps for too long to trigger it thermal, or you have a short/inrush that trips the magnetic.

Same here.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

We have Arc fault breakers that detect arcs and trip them too. We don't test for impedance because it doesn't change if the breaker will trip or not.

Lol your logic is flawed. If your circuit is a long run and you live far from the transformer, your circuit impedance will rise. Especially if you use a breaker that allows for higher inrush currents (magnetric trip lower limit raised)... it can be hard to actually be able to achieve the magnetric trip with a short circuit. I'll give you an example;
In the 1970's home of my brother the circuitimpedance on his side in a kitchen outlet is 0,35 Ohms. Max fault current is 650A. Now run it to some shed... and voila; your max fault current might be <500A meaning the use of C50 breaker is not allowed.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

Any such reliance is flawed. You have just made the system to complicated and sensitive, the impedance isn't going to be static anyway.

No, if it's cold it will be higher by a few %. Other than that you still don't seem to understand circuitimpedance

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

Some things in Europe are done well and could be said better than N.A. . Electrical isn't one of them. You will never get the engineers, safety official, etc that create NEC code to head in the direction of Europe.

Less complicated world needs safety officials. Just tell me again how multifunction testers were not a thing in the US yet are in Europe?

And from what I can find... the USA loses a multiple of lives each year (yes, also relative to population) to electrocution compared to NL.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

The elements of what you have over there, exist here, they just aren't commonly used for various reasons. But we aren't going to go lowering temperature ratings on wires, reducing the size of wires, running them at the limits of their capacities. 3 Phase distribution to homes is neat, and we have such systems, they just aren't widespread as there isn't as big of a benefit as some folks think.

You are the only one who keeps bringing up temperature ratings of wire. Did you yet realize that a 110V circuit requires FOUR times more copper to have the same power losses? Power lost = heat produced. Perhaps now then you understand heat is not really an issue here.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

We use the right solutions for the problem. Safety rules all in US electrical.

Aaaah! So that is why you cut off the notches of thinner gauge cords?

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM

Saving a few bucks using smaller wires, yet increasing the fire risk is not something that will happen. Running higher voltages, thus needing even more precautions when it comes to insulation/isolation, verses just pulling some more amps thru a bigger wire is not a change that will happen.

Thru this thread, going back to the 2 cord sizes, it goes back to there being no reason for the smaller gauge cord, was festool just trying to get to a smaller wire size because they thought that was better? Or thoughts on the Kapex saga with saws burning up.

There is as much a need for the smaller gauge cord as there is for the D27 hose even though the D36 hose exists.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #48 on:** January 20, 2021, 07:12 PM »

Quote from: mino on January 20, 2021, 04:50 PM

US installs are skewed in the "safer voltage" which allows unprotected bare wires in NEAM plugs etc. But pay with a much higher installation material costs and/or higher fire risks. These days (think last 100 years or so) it is only the higher costs.

European installs go more for the efficiency side which gives a generally simpler/cheaper (materially) installs and appliances. Then this is compensated by fully-protected plugs and additional safety precautions. Today this works out very well.

This was not so in the past, but is today. Especially with ubiquitous fully grounded installs with no PEN and RCDs being prevalent even where not mandated.

I would argue, that the 110V/240V system WAS superior on the safety side up until about the 50s/60s when the actual protection measures we have today were either not available or were not mandated.

Today, the safety aspect is a non-issue on either system which leaves the efficiency only and slants the weights in direction of the 230/400 system.

How are you deciding the European setup is safer? Europe drags behind N.A. on electrical safety by a lot.

GFCI (RCD in your guys speak), the US had is starting in the 1960s, with usage of it expanding to more locations since. From online, it looks like it didn't start in a lot of Europe till the mid 80s, some places the 90s.

AFCI (arc fault), the US has had it for 20 years now, looks like in Europe it is just starting and is largely optional.

Tamper resistant outlets, Looks like some of Scandinavia has them, but not others.

mino · « **Reply #49 on:** January 20, 2021, 08:17 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 07:12 PM

How are you deciding the European setup is safer? Europe drags behind N.A. on electrical safety by a lot.

GFCI (RCD in your guys speak), the US had is starting in the 1960s, with usage of it expanding to more locations since. From online, it looks like it didn't start in a lot of Europe till the mid 80s, some places the 90s.

AFCI (arc fault), the US has had it for 20 years now, looks like in Europe it is just starting and is largely optional.

Tamper resistant outlets, Looks like some of Scandinavia has them, but not others.

By 110/240 system (typo, should be 120/240) I mean the US system - i.e. it was indeed safer mainly due to the lower voltage to ground as well as the widespread use of RCDs.
I think the RCDs were much sooner widespread in the US as they work as a fire-proofing first and foremost. In most of Europe fire-proofing the installation was not such a concern due to the prevalent construction materials, so it was not even recommended in many countries not to mention mandated. Bricks just do not burn when faced with a higher temperature and neither does concrete.

The thing is, I actually remember as a kid we had a few electrical "fires" in our wall sockets when they were reaching their end of life.This was - incredibly - seen as almost a non-issue as the wall was concrete, the socket was a thermo-stable plastic which does not burn and the socket internals were ceramic ... So it just made unpleasant odor and was fixed with no real urgency. Inherent safety has its benefits. Same way exposed plugs are mostly fine at 120V ...

For context:
In Czechoslovakia something like "wooden house" was considered a "cottage in the woods" category and seen as "not suitable for normal living". This was historical and was so during the last several hundred years or so. This was natural as with no AC existing a house with a low thermal mass would be un-livable during summer 30C+ and un-heatable in winter -20C. And when you have no new-built wooden houses or even plans to make them, you do not need to concern yourself with them in your standards and economics can take precedence. Just make a special rule for retrofitting such houses (e.g. mandate use of full-metal earthed conduits). Especially as raw materials for wires need to be imported and were rare after the wars (both first and second WW, basically), unlike in US.

Ref. wooden houses, this is slowly changing, but still a (modern) wooden house is considered mostly the bottom 10% of the market as AC is still considered an (unnecessary) luxury. People tend to rather invest in more thermal mass so summers cannot heat up a house easily (40cm brick walls or 20cm concrete being the norm) and insulation takes care of the winters...

Today RCDs came down in price, so started being mandated for their safety aspects. This means the overall safety level of the whole system is now balanced/equivalent between US and Europe new installs. But that was not always so in the past indeed.

About European sockets.
Mostly it is the French/German(Schuko) systems both of which have recessed sockets so you cannot touch the active wires while plugging the cable. The are exceptions - Swiss and Italians systems. But most of Europe is on the French/Schuko system which differ really only on the ground connector placement. The appliances are actually sold with the "Europlug" which is a universal hybrid that works both with "French" and Schuko grounding arrangements.

Coen · « **Reply #50 on:** January 20, 2021, 08:27 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 07:12 PM

Quote from: mino on January 20, 2021, 04:50 PM
US installs are skewed in the "safer voltage" which allows unprotected bare wires in NEAM plugs etc. But pay with a much higher installation material costs and/or higher fire risks. These days (think last 100 years or so) it is only the higher costs.

European installs go more for the efficiency side which gives a generally simpler/cheaper (materially) installs and appliances. Then this is compensated by fully-protected plugs and additional safety precautions. Today this works out very well.

This was not so in the past, but is today. Especially with ubiquitous fully grounded installs with no PEN and RCDs being prevalent even where not mandated.

I would argue, that the 110V/240V system WAS superior on the safety side up until about the 50s/60s when the actual protection measures we have today were either not available or were not mandated.

Today, the safety aspect is a non-issue on either system which leaves the efficiency only and slants the weights in direction of the 230/400 system.

How are you deciding the European setup is safer? Europe drags behind N.A. on electrical safety by a lot.

Oh really? Are you counting Russia under Europe as well? Turkey perhaps? Where are your sources?

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 07:12 PM

GFCI (RCD in your guys speak), the US had is starting in the 1960s, with usage of it expanding to more locations since. From online, it looks like it didn't start in a lot of Europe till the mid 80s, some places the 90s.

Once again; what do you count under Europe? The former parts of the Soviet Union?

Rcd's are mandatory in NL since 1975.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 07:12 PM

AFCI (arc fault), the US has had it for 20 years now, looks like in Europe it is just starting and is largely optional.

Cause we have less need for it to begin with because of half as big currents.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 07:12 PM

Tamper resistant outlets, Looks like some of Scandinavia has them, but not others.

Lol. The Scandinavian countries use the same Schuko outlet as used in many other European countries. The shutters are not mandatory in most though but are often used in places with low-placed outlets in a kid-rich environment.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #51 on:** January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM »

Cutting out the nonsense, we know very much how wire sizing works here. Again, you are getting hung up on trying to make them as small as you can or that buying/installing bigger gauge wire is some horrible burden. You also keep forgetting that for most the stuff you are talking about we are 240V, no change in wire size happens as it's all ready the same voltage (higher actually). We are powering stuff that is 240V and big amps. We use 240V for the same reason, it reduces amps, but what we are powering is much more powerful. 120V is used for lights and plugs, the stuff wired with 12 and 14 gauge wire, just like how you guys have 2 size wires for lights and plugs. We could say we use less than you since we tend to use romex, so we aren't buying individual wires in different colors, but that's just getting silly. A spool of 12/2 and a spool of 14/2 and you are good to go for almost the entire house.

When we are using 10, 8, 6 gauge wire, it's 240V applications. We also do use the 12 and 14 for 240V stuff too (common for base board heat). There is no magical change in wire size. And sizing wire is about the rise in temp of the wire due to it's insulation. We aren't constraining ourselves to 110V, we use it where the need for 240V is almost non-existant, and the safety benefit of lower voltage wins out. Sure, 240V makes it easier to run a large router in the living room, not going to sell folks on getting rid of 120V.

Big loads are 240V, somehow the seams to keep getting missed. If someone has oven, furnace, etc and it is 240V/60A, folks don't want to run 4 separate 15A runs to it. We go parallel when we have loads over 100A because you hit a limit of the breakers. So you have to start splitting it up, but that just isn't common, and when you can just grab the right size wire and be done with it, there is no issue.

You don't have wide spread use of large electrical appliances in homes there. Not everything is easy to break up the loads. An electric car charger wants 240V/50A, not 3Phases. That just means you will have to add more electronics to the charger to get it to something the car accepts. Same for other devices. And it's not like the runs with 10, 8, 6AWG are long. Most are short as there is only a couple of them going to the same places, like the kitchen, or utility room, all of which are close to the electrical panel. If someone has a small home, that is natural gas dependent, guess what? They might have only 12 and 14gauge wiring in the whole house. As they might not have electrical circuits for range/cooktop/oven/AC/furance/Hot Water Heater/etc. Problem is those houses will need to be upgraded in one form or another as gas service is eliminated.

I have nothing against 230/240V power. I'd be fine with us being all 240V power. But to act like there is something terrible wrong or problematic with 120V is silly. It works very well. Same with 3 phase distribution, it's nice, works well if I have a lot of large motors to power. But it hardly changes anything in the big picture, power is power at the transmission level. Both systems work perfectly well. There is zero chance of the USA and all the other countries with the same system changing, there just is no economic reason for that change. There is no overall technical reason for going with one over the other. If the world was starting over, there would be debates on which way to go.

What matters is the systems being able to handle the future, which is pure electric. The USA, Canada are well positioned as more of our homes are in a better position to handle the increased electrical demands as we put much bigger electrical services into our homes.

Quote from: Coen on January 20, 2021, 07:12 PM

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM
We use the right solutions for the problem. Safety rules all in US electrical.

Aaaah! So that is why you cut off the notches of thinner gauge cords?

What does this mean?

Coen · « **Reply #52 on:** January 20, 2021, 08:34 PM »

Quote from: mino on January 20, 2021, 08:17 PM

The appliances are actually sold with the "Europlug" which is a universal hybrid that works both with "French" and Schuko grounding arrangements.

No the Europlug is the small 2.5A plug that fits many different sockets.

The fullsize plug that is compatible with both German and French outlets is the hybrid CEE 7/7 plug.
This thing;

The hole for the French pin-earth and the metal strips on the side for the German earthing clips.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #53 on:** January 20, 2021, 08:53 PM »

Quote from: mino on January 20, 2021, 08:17 PM

By 110/240 system (typo, should be 120/240) I mean the US system - i.e. it was indeed safer mainly due to the lower voltage to ground as well as the widespread use of RCDs.
I think the RCDs were much sooner widespread in the US as they work as a fire-proofing first and foremost. In most of Europe fire-proofing the installation was not such a concern due to the prevalent construction materials, so it was not even recommended in many countries not to mention mandated. Bricks just do not burn when faced with a higher temperature and neither does concrete.

The thing is, I actually remember as a kid we had a few electrical "fires" in our wall sockets when they were reaching their end of life.This was - incredibly - seen as almost a non-issue as the wall was concrete, the socket was a thermo-stable plastic which does not burn and the socket internals were ceramic ... So it just made unpleasant odor and was fixed with no real urgency. Inherent safety has its benefits. Same way exposed plugs are mostly fine at 120V ...

GFCI was for safety with water, not fire. It started with pool heaters, spread to bathrooms, then kitchens, then basements (anything considered damp/wet). It's pretty close to being on almost all circuits, not there yet. It doesn't do anything for fire, it's just to protect you from becoming the circuit when your toaster falls into the bathtub with you in it.

AFCI has more to do with fire. The concern being small arcing that takes time to cause a fire, like putting a nail in a wall into a wire (there are plenty of things protecting this from happening, but still), this might just slightly damage a wire, and not cause an instant arc, or event to kick a breaker. As of the latest code revisions, it's mandatory on all 120V circuits. It probably will go to 240V stuff before long.

We build all forms of construction of homes here, but again, that doesn't drive the electrical code. Knob and tube got eliminated early on (it had issues), but when folks began insulating homes, it was an issue as the wires couldn't handle the retained heat. As was mentioned, the temp rating on the wires is key, and why it has been increased over time here.

As far in a junction box won't cause a house fire, the boxes are non-combustable, combustable materials can't be exposed to it where it comes thru the wall. If something causes an event in a box, you can get something like you mention, a flash and such, but thats it. Insulations are generally speaking non-combustable, most need some level of fire protecting covering over them (foam especially). There are rules on how much device and wires goes into any size box to prevent over heating, just like running thru conduit, code ensures there is adequate air space to prevent over heating. The wires won't cause a fire, as you have the protection device (fuse/breaker), they can't get to a hot enough temp to damage the insulation on them.

Coen · « **Reply #54 on:** January 20, 2021, 09:08 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

Cutting out the nonsense, we know very much how wire sizing works here.

Yeah, well, you kinda have to because not knowing it will be a bigger risk in your system. In NL you can use one general rule for residential; all circuitbreakers 16A and all wiring 2,5mm^2.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

Again, you are getting hung up on trying to make them as small as you can or that buying/installing bigger gauge wire is some horrible burden.

Copper ain't free. That is why the core of your pennies is now Zinc.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

You also keep forgetting that for most the stuff you are talking about we are 240V, no change in wire size happens as it's all ready the same voltage (higher actually). We are powering stuff that is 240V and big amps. We use 240V for the same reason, it reduces amps, but what we are powering is much more powerful. 120V is used for lights and plugs, the stuff wired with 12 and 14 gauge wire, just like how you guys have 2 size wires for lights and plugs.

Hehe lol. On that two sizes for lights; Since 1968 when we adopted the European wire color standard we had the rule that switches wires had to be black or gray. Since the only switched thing in a home is lights and 1.5mm^2 was allowed for that it became logic to buy the black wire in 1,5mm^2. That rule might change, also allowing brown, but black 1.5mm^2 will probably still persist because if you are pulling wire you still need the extra roll.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

We could say we use less than you since we tend to use romex, so we aren't buying individual wires in different colors, but that's just getting silly. A spool of 12/2 and a spool of 14/2 and you are good to go for almost the entire house.

Almost... so not really. Did you see the Youtube clip of the wire Systainer?

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

When we are using 10, 8, 6 gauge wire, it's 240V applications. We also do use the 12 and 14 for 240V stuff too (common for base board heat). There is no magical change in wire size.

You brought up the list of wire sizes, not me.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

And sizing wire is about the rise in temp of the wire due to it's insulation. We aren't constraining ourselves to 110V, we use it where the need for 240V is almost non-existant, and the safety benefit of lower voltage wins out. Sure, 240V makes it easier to run a large router in the living room, not going to sell folks on getting rid of 120V.

You actually are constraining yourself, just like with the imperial system, but keep making excuses not to change. And I get it; change is hard. That is why the UK is stuck with the most lousy rail loading gauge while the US could learn from the UK's mistake and has way bigger loading gauge. In some sense you could say Europe learned from the 110V mistake in the US.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

Big loads are 240V, somehow the seams to keep getting missed. If someone has oven, furnace, etc and it is 240V/60A, folks don't want to run 4 separate 15A runs to it.

Neither do we. We run a single 3-phase circuit. 5x2,5mm^2 in 19mm conduit, good for 11 kW. Specific for NL we cheated and have a handicapped version (for homes with single-phase connection) where we run 2 single circuits in parallel for 7,4 kW. I actually just installed one in my brother's home a week ago. Now he has a 7,4 kW induction cooktop.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

We go parallel when we have loads over 100A because you hit a limit of the breakers. So you have to start splitting it up, but that just isn't common, and when you can just grab the right size wire and be done with it, there is no issue.

So many how different types of wire does the residential service electrician have in his van?

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

You don't have wide spread use of large electrical appliances in homes there. Not everything is easy to break up the loads. An electric car charger wants 240V/50A, not 3Phases.

Really? The Tesla's here are charged with 3-phase. There are some single phase 32A cars, these are annoying for the typical NL home installation.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

That just means you will have to add more electronics to the charger to get it to something the car accepts.

Yeah, because one tiny part of the globe sticks to a standard from 2 centuries ago

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

Same for other devices. And it's not like the runs with 10, 8, 6AWG are long. Most are short as there is only a couple of them going to the same places, like the kitchen, or utility room, all of which are close to the electrical panel. If someone has a small home, that is natural gas dependent, guess what? They might have only 12 and 14gauge wiring in the whole house. As they might not have electrical circuits for range/cooktop/oven/AC/furance/Hot Water Heater/etc. Problem is those houses will need to be upgraded in one form or another as gas service is eliminated.

We had mandatory 19mm conduit to the kitchen since ages. But I think they scrapped it a few years ago. But more recently new homes aren't even connected to the gas network and of 99% that don't have the empty conduit you go through the crawl space. That's the route used in my brother's home too, since his kitched moved from the original 1970's spot.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

I have nothing against 230/240V power. I'd be fine with us being all 240V power. But to act like there is something terrible wrong or problematic with 120V is silly. It works very well.

Yet all these topics complaining about the two gauge cords, the plugs on the CT, the power rating of the outlet on the CT etc. suggest otherwise.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

Same with 3 phase distribution, it's nice, works well if I have a lot of large motors to power. But it hardly changes anything in the big picture, power is power at the transmission level. Both systems work perfectly well. There is zero chance of the USA and all the other countries with the same system changing,

There are actually very few countries that use 110V

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

there just is no economic reason for that change. There is no overall technical reason for going with one over the other. If the world was starting over, there would be debates on which way to go.

Maybe that has something to do with the time you see as reasonable to get a return on investment.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

What matters is the systems being able to handle the future, which is pure electric. The USA, Canada are well positioned as more of our homes are in a better position to handle the increased electrical demands as we put much bigger electrical services into our homes.

That just means more possibily to install wastefull ways of heating. Like resistive instead of heatpump. Or with too little insulation.

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 08:31 PM

Quote from: Coen on January 20, 2021, 07:12 PM

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 20, 2021, 03:20 PM
We use the right solutions for the problem. Safety rules all in US electrical.

Aaaah! So that is why you cut off the notches of thinner gauge cords?

What does this mean?

Cutting off tabs of the ends of thinner cords is definitly not "Safety rules all".

Bohdan · « **Reply #55 on:** January 20, 2021, 09:19 PM »

Give it a rest guys. You are worst than a republican talking to a democrat.

Cheese · « **Reply #56 on:** January 20, 2021, 10:23 PM »

Quote from: Bohdan on January 20, 2021, 09:19 PM

Give it a rest guys. You are worst than a republican talking to a democrat.

Well unfortunately...they’re both Democrats...not a bad thing...

But I still love each full-throated proclamation. And you do have to admire that each has a full-throated declaration of their position.

I’d say let the debate go on...

US 240V vs EU 230V

Cheese · « **Reply #57 on:** January 20, 2021, 10:46 PM »

Personally, I have no issues with the power distribution in the US. It works and it works well.The normal 240 vac comes in on the main pole to every house and I can direct it to whatever outlet I need to. If I need 120 vac I can also direct that to whatever outlet I need. Pretty simple...240 comes in and you make a decision if you need 120 or 240 power, you direct it to the outlet you need. Drama over , pretty simple.

If you need 3-phase you just contact the power provider and that becomes installed.

Coen · « **Reply #58 on:** January 21, 2021, 12:29 AM »

Quote from: Cheese on January 20, 2021, 10:46 PM

If you need 3-phase you just contact the power provider and that becomes installed.

Then you get the 207 phase-phase voltage? What do they charge to install that?

Overhere grid companies now charge about 300 bucks to screw in the two missing fuses if you have a single phase connection. (99% of them being wired 3-phase to the home, but single phase to the meter).

Svar · « **Reply #59 on:** January 21, 2021, 12:47 AM »

Me, checking out this thread, thinking it's about 2 cords: