Author Topic: 168mm vs. 160mm saw blades for CSC SYC 50  (Read 1960 times)

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Offline ElectricFeet

  • Posts: 220
168mm vs. 160mm saw blades for CSC SYC 50
« on: May 18, 2023, 04:37 PM »
I am (soon to be “was”—selling to a friend) an owner of an HKC 55 and I now own a TSC 55 KEB, which I bought relatively recently. The 160mm diameter / 1.8mm kerf blades are compatible and I own quite a few — for various materials and cut-types.

I see that the TS60 uses a 168mm diameter / 1.8mm kerf blade and I get why Festool want to go that little bit further with depth.

I just splurged on a CSC SYS 50 and I have mixed feelings about the saw blades being 168mm. It’s great that the tablesaw will go that little bit further, but I have several 160mm blades I would like to use in it.

I see no reason why I shouldn’t use the 160mm blades in the CSC SYS 50 — with the caveat that I might want to add 4mm to measurements, rather than calibrating to the new blade size (because otherwise the machine might(?) try to raise itself too high (though I’m sure it’s cleverer than that)).

But the manual says:
Quote
Only use saw blades with the following dimensions:
– Saw blades according to EN 847-1
– Saw blade diameter 168 mm
– Cutting width 1.8 mm
– Locating bore 20 mm
– Standard blade thickness 1.2 mm
– Suitable for speeds of up to 9500  rpm

so I thought I’d bounce it around here first.

The main point is that I really want to be able to use the same blades in both the TSC55K and the CSC SYS 50 wherever possible, as it’s costly having 2 of everything.

Any advice?

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Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 796
Re: 168mm vs. 160mm saw blades for CSC SYC 50
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2023, 05:11 PM »

Advice? Not really - just empathising.

I do this for a living and I have 22 x 160mm TS55 blades in a constant cycle of being used or being resharpened. I bought a TS60 (which is great), but my issue is that unlike the 160's where there a bunch of crazy-cheap aftermarket alternatives, the 168mm blade is still OEM only - at £70 a pop. Extortionate - to the extent that the new saw which was intended to replace my old TS55, only gets brought out when it's desperately needed for cutting material whose thickness slightly defeats the TS55. I'm paying £12 a blade for the aftermarket 160's and they are 100% as good as the OEM's. Identical in every conceivable respect. It's almost not worth paying £8 to have them resharpened.

Offline woodferret

  • Posts: 537
Re: 168mm vs. 160mm saw blades for CSC SYC 50
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2023, 07:01 PM »
I'll stop buying rip and universal blades for my TS55 when the CSC comes in.  I might keep a cheap 3rd party oshlun for the rare occasional rip.  Hence I'm not concerned about having 2 of each blades.  The only overlap would be the crosscut blades - but thats fine.  General advice is not to minmax consumables.  If you're in the situation of job-work that'll occasionally leave you with only one of the two tools onsite, then min-maxing blades will leave you at risk of having the required blade 'in the other tool'.

Offline ElectricFeet

  • Posts: 220
Re: 168mm vs. 160mm saw blades for CSC SYC 50
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2023, 06:40 AM »
General advice is not to minmax consumables.  If you're in the situation of job-work that'll occasionally leave you with only one of the two tools onsite, then min-maxing blades will leave you at risk of having the required blade 'in the other tool'.

Fully agree and I don’t normally worry too much about the cost of consumables.

I'll stop buying rip and universal blades for my TS55 when the CSC comes in.
This gets to the heart of the issue: I have a couple of blades that I will probably never use again on the TSC 55K, as I will do all rips on the CSC.

My Question is more whether I can use the 160 blades in the CSC — given the electronics involved in raising /lowering the blade and the automatic calculations for angles etc. I guess I will have a choice of adding 4mm to all heights in my head or recalibrating to the height to the new blade. The former is dodgy, as I will make misktaes. I worry that if I do the latter, it might try to extend the blade further than it should and break something. Though I imagine that Festool has already thought of that scenario — and the re-calibration may even be there for precisely this purpose.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1425
Re: 168mm vs. 160mm saw blades for CSC SYC 50
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2023, 06:51 AM »
Below is a universal advice/statement. Not Festool-specific.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The safety aspect is, that a blade which is heavier (thicker disc), wider or has a bigger diameter, or, in general, was not tested with the saw, may: *)
- damage the saw
- create a safety hazard

This means, as far as the pure mechanical load on the saw goes, anything which is same or lower diameter and has same or lower (disc) thickness and the disc thickness is supported by the blade securing mechanism and has same or lower kerf and has same arbor and is rated to same or higher speed is generally considered safe to use in a rotating tool like a saw.

This is why most professional tools do not limit the user to specific blade diameters but have "up to" stated in documentation. The trick there is those are professional tools which only qualified professionals (are allowed to) use. These professionals are required/expected to be trained/qualified to not use an incompatible/unsafe blade-tool combination. In those case the tool maker is *not* obliged to tell the user how to use the tool - the user is supposed to have formal qualifications for that already in place.

Aand here comes the "issue":
Festool (Makita, Bosch..) sells to BOTH the professional and the consumer markets. Thus *all* their documentation must meet the stricter "consumer market" standards where the tool is expected to be used by a non-trained or at most semi-qualified person. Thus the documentation cannot leave such safety-critical decisions to the user.
Of course, the user may override/ignore the documentation, BUT then Festool cannot be held liable for any consequences. Be they tool damage, or, critically, an injury.

To reiterate. Above is not Festool-specific. This is how *all* the tool makers which span both the consumer and the professional markets are forced to operate. And that is also why Festool cannot allow users on this semi-official forum to propagate non-approved/tested tool use. Such advice being tolerated here could be construed as "being encouraged by them" in common law .. with all the legal consequences.

For my own: I use all kinds of blades in my TSC 55 and other saws, following the physics limitations mentioned above. BUT, I am a physicist by degree ... so lets say I fall into the "qualified" group on this able to make my own decisions, on my sole responsibility.

Hope helps.

*)Even 0.0001% probability of such meets that "may" and is a no-go for the tool maker vis-a-vis the consumer-focused documentation.

EDIT: Added the that a thinner (disc) blade is not safe also when the blade securing mechanism does not support such thin blades.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2023, 07:02 AM by mino »
The Machine has no brain. Use Yours!

Offline woodferret

  • Posts: 537
Re: 168mm vs. 160mm saw blades for CSC SYC 50
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2023, 09:22 AM »
I worry that if I do the latter, it might try to extend the blade further than it should and break something. Though I imagine that Festool has already thought of that scenario — and the re-calibration may even be there for precisely this purpose.

All engieers are trained use limit stops with servos.  We either home one good limit and soft-code the opposite or put in another limit stop on the other end.  There should be no way one grinds past the hardware even if we set the zero position somewhere in the middle.  Absolute limits are kept separate from datums.

TLDR - you should be fine recalibrating zero to a smaller diameter blade even if it diffs a large amount.

Offline ElectricFeet

  • Posts: 220
Re: 168mm vs. 160mm saw blades for CSC SYC 50
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2023, 12:39 PM »
Thank @mino and @woodferret for helping me come to the conclusion that the 160 blades are probably OK in the CSC SYS 50.

However, I've just seen the circular saw blade FAQ on this page, which says:
Quote
Can the 160 mm saw blades also be used on the TS 60 K?
No, the TS 60 K is designed exclusively for the 168 mm diameter saw blades.

This tells me that they will almost certainly say the same thing for the CSC.

So I've decided life is too short to mess around recalibrating etc. I'll just buy new -- not minmaxing my consumables, as @woodferret suggests.

Thanks for all the replies.