Author Topic: RO 90 Review in JLC  (Read 24228 times)

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Offline jobsworth

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  • Festool Baby.....
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2012, 09:27 AM »
You will not be sorry you took that class.

Steve is awesome.

Just get ready to buy a domino when ya get home.

BTW Steve will have bananas , muffins, coffee etc there for breakfast both days and will pick up the tab for lunch both days and dnner the first night.

So for food (unless you snack a lot) will be pretty much covered except for the 2nd nights meal.

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Offline TA455HO

  • Posts: 28
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2012, 11:05 AM »
Thanks for the extra info. That helps a lot. Luckily I already have a Domino so it will have to be something else...question is what.  [scared]
Festool CT36E, TS55EQ, TS75EQ, FS1080, FS1400, FS1900, FS2700, DF500, RO90, RO150, RTS400, LHS225, MFT/3, WCR1000, Compact cleaning kit, Guide rail kit, Tenons and cutters kit
DeWalt D24000 tile saw, DW708 miter saw, DW735 Planer
Porter Cable 24" Omnijig, 2 x 690LR Routers (both with D-handle), 557 Biscuit
Fein Multimaster

Offline jobsworth

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  • Festool Baby.....
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2012, 07:08 PM »
I wrote a review of the Intro to Festool class and just did a search for itand found it.

Ya night want to read it.

buuutttt looking at your list,

im guessing Kapex, boom arm, work center, paralell guides, OF2200 or 1010,

it isnt gonna be cheap buddy believe me
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 07:12 PM by sancho57 »

Offline TA455HO

  • Posts: 28
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2012, 12:53 PM »
I added the work center to my list. Forgot about that one. The wife bought that for me and didn't realize it came with all the shelves and hooks so she bought me what amounts to a second round of everything except the main portion that straps on the CT36. I use almost all of it.

I figured you'd mention Kapex. I sure think about it often. The old DeWalt 708 12" CSM is outside in a breezeway area because of all the dust it makes. It's not generally allowed in the shop. It's not extremely accurate and has no lasers. It has been a work horse, though, and even if I got the Kapex I'd probably keep the DW just for rough work and cutting 6x material.

Parallel guides sound interesting. I've never seen them in action. I have no table saw.

Routers - I've got a soft spot for routers. I've got the two PC 690 routers that I switched to short power cords to use the PC D-handles. I use those with the PC dovetail jig primarily, with a different bit in each one as needed so I don't have to switch or readjust much in a given session. Then I have a fairly old Craftsman Pro 3.5HP in a same era full-height Craftsman aluminum table. I use that for everything up to raising panels. It's got this great spindle lock so it only needs one wrench. And it has a threaded plunge adjustment which moves it up and down in the table without the table itself having any sort of lift. Sort of a neat older system.
Festool CT36E, TS55EQ, TS75EQ, FS1080, FS1400, FS1900, FS2700, DF500, RO90, RO150, RTS400, LHS225, MFT/3, WCR1000, Compact cleaning kit, Guide rail kit, Tenons and cutters kit
DeWalt D24000 tile saw, DW708 miter saw, DW735 Planer
Porter Cable 24" Omnijig, 2 x 690LR Routers (both with D-handle), 557 Biscuit
Fein Multimaster

Offline jobsworth

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  • Festool Baby.....
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2012, 02:33 PM »

In the class Steve will give you a great overview of the tools before you use them, on uses, set up adjustments etc so you will have a good understanding of each of the tools you'll use.

what you'll do in the class is use the TS 55 cut pieces from a sheet of MDF using a cuttlist created by Steve.

You'll the TS 55 and guite rails w/ paralell guides for that.( If i remember correctly).

You'll use the Kapex, for cutting to length, the TS55 and or the Kapex for cutting 45 edges, and the domino for joining the pieces together.

I have a pc 690 with the plunge base and D-handle.

Since I got the 1010 I havent touched the 690, no need to.

Especially when I found how light and easy the 1010 is and the dust collection it provides.

I have a PC 7815 mounted in my router table.

I havent use it very much since I got the 1010 either.

But Ill keep the 7815 and use it solely as a table mounted router.

Im getting rid of the router table and make one tab I can set inbetween my 2 MFTs to save space.

Oh I also think you'll play with the LR 32 system too. Not sure but I think.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 02:35 PM by sancho57 »

Offline Julian Tracy

  • Posts: 529
    • Renovation By Design, Inc.
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2012, 09:40 AM »
I haven't read the review, but have at times wondered about the best way/technique to use a few of my Festool's.  And certainly, the manuals are just about useless, I agree.

But I just can't get over how silly it sounds to suggest you should go to a class to learn the aforementioned list of basic woodworking tasks.

No doubt the Kapex is a great saw (I do not own it yet), but seriously, a few lessons in how to cut to length and perform a 45 degree miter operation??

As for the Rotex90, I have it and in general think it's about the handiest little sander I have.  I've owned the original Multimaster for about 15 years and never cared for it much for sanding.  

The Rotex modes on either the 90 or 150 can get a bit tricky to handle at times, but you adjust the settings and technique and figure it out.

I've no doubt I'd pick up tons of tips and whatnot at a Festool class, and if one was near me, I'd probably pay close to $150 or so to attend.  But to suggest that most users "ought" to attend (to the tune of $500++) to get the best use out of relatively basic power handtools seems a bit ludicrous.

If we were speaking of the large Euro 5-function sliding table shaper/saw/mortisers, etc, maybe I could see a class as a general new owner's 1st step.  But except for those who just like spending their money on Green tools and hanging out with others who are like minded, I can't see it as a prerequisite to efficient operation.

If there's some basic tips and tricks to using the tools - here's an idea -- how having the owner's manual's address it?  Add a section headed: usability, with the all the fancy tips and techniques.

Buy a tool, figure out how to make it do what you need it to do.  If needed, modify or enhance to further tweak it to your needs.  No class necessary, right?

Julian

Edit:  Just read the review.  I have no issues with his writeup of the tool, though I wouldn't have made a point of telling everyone how long it took me to figure out the pad switch...  Sure the Fein tool WOULD be smoother in use, but that certainly doesn't make it as efficient or fast in sanding tight spaces. I think for a short-form review it was fair balanced and in general positive.  I can't see why there's so much discussion surrounding this?  They're TOOLS, not your children!

« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 10:39 AM by Julian Tracy »

Offline ccarrolladams

  • Posts: 1466
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2012, 11:28 AM »
Go get some training to learn efficient ways of using your Festools or do not get such training. That is your choice. You invested a lot of money in your tools. To me it is a wise business decision to invent in tool-specific training.

Before they came to work for me all of my cabinet makers were long-time Festool users. Actually I might be the most recent Festool convert in my shop, since I bought my first TS55 in early 2006. Fortunately my dealer took the time to explain how I could best adapt my experience with conventional circular saws to the plunge/track saw TS55 with its trailing dust extraction hose. Better yet, my dealer holds an open house 2 Saturdays a month. Sure they will write orders during those times, but the main thing is a bunch of very experienced hobby and professional woodworkers get together to share tips about using tools.

Maybe I have custom cabinet competitors who do not take continuing education/training as seriously. That is their loss.

To me Festool is a system, which starts with some really good engineers/designers, has excellent people building and testing the tools at the factory, has many trained dealers and FOG. Certainly a major part of this system is training. I consider Steve Bace and Brian "The Sedge" Sedgeley good friends and the training from them a major competitive edge.

Offline Julian Tracy

  • Posts: 529
    • Renovation By Design, Inc.
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2012, 12:11 PM »
Sorry, but I'm not sure my "dealer" can give me much advice when he's in a store selling and I'm on my job building cabinets from scratch.  Surely that's a generalization, but the majority of dealers are just that, and not craftsman.

But I can definitely see the value of conversating with other users and sharing tips and working techniques - how can that NOT be beneficial?

But the topic wasn't sharing and learning new techniques from your peers on a Sat at the woodworking store - it was spending $500+ and taking a 2-day info-mercial "seminar" and getting worked up to buy $140 vac hoses and $500 extra MFTs to gain more general worksurface in the shop...  That's my contention - that you shouldn't and don't need to figure a 2day seminar into the purchase of these tools to start using them as they were designed. 

Hey - make it a working vacation - I can see that, but I'd rather be at the beach with my kid...

They start having them near me at a reasonable cost - sign me up.  When they start a mini-class in how to excel at using your cxs drill - no thanks.

JT

Offline ccarrolladams

  • Posts: 1466
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2012, 01:16 PM »
Sorry, but I'm not sure my "dealer" can give me much advice when he's in a store selling and I'm on my job building cabinets from scratch.  Surely that's a generalization, but the majority of dealers are just that, and not craftsman.

But I can definitely see the value of conversating with other users and sharing tips and working techniques - how can that NOT be beneficial?

But the topic wasn't sharing and learning new techniques from your peers on a Sat at the woodworking store - it was spending $500+ and taking a 2-day info-mercial "seminar" and getting worked up to buy $140 vac hoses and $500 extra MFTs to gain more general worksurface in the shop...  That's my contention - that you shouldn't and don't need to figure a 2day seminar into the purchase of these tools to start using them as they were designed. 

Hey - make it a working vacation - I can see that, but I'd rather be at the beach with my kid...

They start having them near me at a reasonable cost - sign me up.  When they start a mini-class in how to excel at using your cxs drill - no thanks.

JT

The characteristic of a Festool End User Class as an "infomercial" verges on the tort of defamation of business and professional reputation. That is so not what Steve Bace and Brian Sedgeley are all about.

As I always say, I will successfully run my business according to accepted business principles, expanding on my own education and experience. You are most welcome to run you business as you see fit.

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3740
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2012, 06:40 PM »
I would have no intention to spend a few hundred $$$ for classes to use any woodworking tools.  For me, WW'ing is just a hobby.  If i am going to spend money on classes and seminars, it would have to be for some landscaping classes.  there are a whole lot of new bugs and weeds that I need to learn about.

CC, you are right when discussing the do/do not problems of WW'ing classes when talking to the professionals.  I do the same for my business.  So far, there are Brice,Paul Half Inch Shy, Rick Christofferson and Jerry Work who give excellent reviews and instructions that I can see from right here at my computer while sipping a glass of wine or a cold one.

For me, it is a matter of close budgeting just to be able to afford the tools for WW'ing. I enjoy using the tools and will continue to spend more for Festoys and then stuggle to figure how best to put them to work.  I've always been a good observer. The extra $$$ for classes is an expense i just cannot budget for.  I am sure i am not alone.
Tinker

Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2012, 07:06 PM »
This may sound like semantics, but I wouldn't pay a cent to learn how to use a specific tool from any manufacturer. I would consider attending a course on how to achieve a particular end result.

I believe this situation is different for resellers - they require expertise to demonstrate and support (but training costs need to be part of the commercial relationship).

So ....

Learn to use your Festool Domino ... This should be covered with free material.

Learn to make a chair with your Festool Domino ... I'd pay for that, expecting to take a chair home!

Further, I wouldn't expect either Festool or a reseller to teach me basic skills - maybe just some pointers on how ad where to develop them.

Offline Tom Bellemare

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  • Festool demo's & personal service in Central Texas
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2012, 08:47 PM »
Kev:

I don't teach basic skills because the people, to whom I sell Festool tools, already have them.

I do, however, address how best to use the myriad of Festool offerings to achieve the magic, "Faster, Easier, Smarter". It isn't always obvious. Just as in coding, it isn't always obvious to write terse, more effective code with proper "hooks" until you've done or seen it before.

I have taught a lot of people on 3 continents how to do their jobs more efficiently/effectively and have learned something from most of them in the process. I have also struggled in silence when I knew the person 20 feet away could help me figure something out. I struggled mostly because of pride but also because of insecurity. Insecurity that I would be exposed...

A position that I adopted a couple of decades ago is that I am proud of what I know and can figure out and I am prouder when I can get those around me to help complete my knowledge with theirs.


Tom

Offline wood pulp

  • Posts: 288
  • Each another's audience...
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2012, 10:05 PM »
Further, I wouldn't expect either Festool or a reseller to teach me basic skills - maybe just some pointers on how ad where to develop them.

Actually, like in my business, I am an Account Manager for a large corporation.  I often host and teach continuing ed for my customers.  For two reasons, I am more valuable to them and provide them and their staff with something tangible they can pass on to their customers...education.

My Festool dealer constantly has the Festool rep in to host classes or demo days.  They are a bit more involved than, hello my name is and this is a sander.  I have learned a lot about the tools and how to usefully apply them to different applications.  I value this and it is a big part as to why I buy from him and buy Festools.  The tools are pricey but I value a lot of the free continuing classes I have received.  However, I would not pay $$ to fly somewhere and take a class on power tools.  That being said, this is a hobby for me.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2012, 02:23 AM »
Kev:

I don't teach basic skills because the people, to whom I sell Festool tools, already have them.

I do, however, address how best to use the myriad of Festool offerings to achieve the magic, "Faster, Easier, Smarter". It isn't always obvious. Just as in coding, it isn't always obvious to write terse, more effective code with proper "hooks" until you've done or seen it before.

I have taught a lot of people on 3 continents how to do their jobs more efficiently/effectively and have learned something from most of them in the process. I have also struggled in silence when I knew the person 20 feet away could help me figure something out. I struggled mostly because of pride but also because of insecurity. Insecurity that I would be exposed...

A position that I adopted a couple of decades ago is that I am proud of what I know and can figure out and I am prouder when I can get those around me to help complete my knowledge with theirs.


Tom

That's exactly how I expect a professional Festool reseller to act.

This is the right tennis racquet for you ... it's you size, excellent for top spin, etc ... Not "this is how you play tennis". Those are the lessons you pay for!

Kev

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3960
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2012, 08:04 AM »

I have taught a lot of people on 3 continents how to do their jobs more efficiently/effectively and have learned something from most of them in the process. I have also struggled in silence when I knew the person 20 feet away could help me figure something out. I struggled mostly because of pride but also because of insecurity. Insecurity that I would be exposed...

A position that I adopted a couple of decades ago is that I am proud of what I know and can figure out and I am prouder when I can get those around me to help complete my knowledge with theirs.


An admirable position, Tom.  Like you, I learned a long time ago to look for better ways to do things, and to be open to helping others do things better; even competitors.  One day they might be partners and remember that I helped them along, and return the favor.  I also remember how I felt when being denied knowledge by others that were trusted to help me to grow up.  Eventually, I began to suspect that they didn't have the knowledge to respond appropriately to my questions. 

As for the Festool training, I have never minded taking a couple of days off and driving to Lebanon (or flying to Henderson) to be educated on far better ways to do things.  Every time I've had the privilege of attending one of the classes, I've come away with a far better understanding of how to use a Festool product to my advantage.  While Sedge and Steve are the best instructors on the planet, I've also learned tons from other attendees. 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3740
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2012, 02:45 PM »
Kev:

I don't teach basic skills because the people, to whom I sell Festool tools, already have them.

I do, however, address how best to use the myriad of Festool offerings to achieve the magic, "Faster, Easier, Smarter". It isn't always obvious. Just as in coding, it isn't always obvious to write terse, more effective code with proper "hooks" until you've done or seen it before.

I have taught a lot of people on 3 continents how to do their jobs more efficiently/effectively and have learned something from most of them in the process. I have also struggled in silence when I knew the person 20 feet away could help me figure something out. I struggled mostly because of pride but also because of insecurity. Insecurity that I would be exposed...

A position that I adopted a couple of decades ago is that I am proud of what I know and can figure out and I am prouder when I can get those around me to help complete my knowledge with theirs.

Tom

When I started my landscaping business, i decided to use natural organic methods.  Almost nobody else in my immediate area was doing that.  I was doing a lot of things much differently than any of my competitors.  As time went on, several of those competitors realized what I was doing (word of mouth advertising only/I don't even have a sign on my trucks) and started asking questions about my methods.  I was always very willing to take time to explain and as far as I was concerned, teach. My wife, at first, thought I should not show my competitors, but eventually, she realized that "what goes around, comes around"  those guys will help me when i need a hand or advise about occasions when i need to do things their ways.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline jobsworth

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  • Festool Baby.....
Re: RO 90 Review in JLC
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2012, 12:02 AM »
I continually endeavor to upgrade my skills. I take finishing classes, I take business classes all about running my business more efficiently and providing the best product for my customers.

When I took the festtool classes it was thie same thing. Steve said at the very beginning of the class that most people only use about 50% of a tools potential.

When I finished the class I learned he was correct.

No he didnt each everything about a tools capability. But he gave me the tools to be able to expand the application of each tool.

I found them very helpful and insight full.

In the area of basic cabinent making it was a good refresher course.

I feel it was money well spent.