Author Topic: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm  (Read 10864 times)

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Offline scholar

  • Posts: 127
New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« on: September 15, 2016, 05:55 AM »
Hi

I got delivery of my new RTS 400 REQ Set courtesy of Warren at Toolfest and I have just given it the once over - I thought someone might like a comparison with the old model.

My RTS 400 EQ was one of my first Festools (it says 2003 on the plate, so a lot of water money has passed under the bridge since then...  It has been my favourite sander and, subject to one point*, has been flawless.  I would not see a need to replace it if Festool had not gone and brought out the revised version - the RTS 400 REQ.

[* the one issue I had was that the switch got rather stiff to operate and that annoyed me thinking that it would need a new switch unit - however, having just checked it all over prior to on-selling, I took the top cover off to find that the rocker switch clicks over two pins - a quick clean off of the old grease and a tiny dab of new polyurethane grease means that it is operating better than new!]

Anyway, a comparison of the new and old units:







As can be seen, whilst the two share the same sanding platen (that is good as it means that I can swap over the existing delta base I have when needed to convert it into a DTS), the new unit is a fair bit bigger - taller, and larger handgrip.  In use it feels quite a bit bigger - I suppose one will get used to it, but I am not sure it is an improvement.





The power specs are different - 250w vs 200w - 12,000rpm vs 13,000rpm (the figure of 16,000 refers to the uncontrolled speed should the electronic control fail) but the stroke is the same at a 2.0mm orbit.  In practice it feels quite different - quieter (which is not just due to the lower speed as far as I can tell) but it feels skippier, which I put down to the higher power - it sands effectively, but again I am not sure it feels better (although the reduced noise is good, if not previously considered a problem).  Maybe the larger grip was considered necessary to control the higher power, I don't know.

The dust extraction connection is a trailed new feature and it came supplied with a new hose connector with the new bayonet fitting (I bought an extra one as I needed two and at the time of ordering Warren was unsure whether the new machine would in fact have one):





I should say that I have never had an occasion when the hose has detached from the old sander spigot (it has pulled out from the TS75 before and a bayonet fitting for that would be worthwhile).  The new connection is a tight fit onto the new sander spigot - you can just push it on and it will hold fine, but if you push it fully on and twist to lock, it is immensely secure (probably unnecessarily so).  However, my little trial run identified a problem:



When using the fitting fully pushed home and locked on, the fitting appears to collect dust in the moulded recesses of the two mated fittings - this does not seem to happen if the hose connection is just pushed on halfway as i guess there is a bit of air intake that collects it into the hose.  The amount of dust that is spilled from the two fittings when removing the connector is quite considerable and not very satisfactory in my view (rather inconsistent with Festool standards also).

My old sander came in a Classic Systainer I, but i converted all my tools to T-Loc a while ago; the new sander comes in a T-Loc Systainer II.  I store a selection of sandpaper in both rectangular and Delta pattern, plus the Delta platen, also the hand sanding block that takes the same size rectangular paper.  Here are the two layouts (bear in mind that the old insert was the old Classic one, modified a bit to get it in the T-Loc Systainer):





The new insert is designed for other sanders as well as this one, and there is quite alot of wasted space - with the old layout, I had to keep the dust bag elsewhere to fit everything in, whereas the new layout can accommodate everything including the new dust bag, but then it is the much larger Systainer II.

I never used the dustbag on the original machine, only using vac extraction.  The new trailed reusable dustbag seems to be made of the same material as the reusable bag I have in the CT26 - this is going strong after many uses so I would expect the new sander bag to last well.  It might be something I will use - it will certainly make for quieter sanding without the vac and possibly more manoeuvrable in some situations.

Overall, I am surprised by my initial assessment here - I am really not sure that this is a great step forward.  On the plus side is the additional power (if that was needed) and quieter operation; against that are the more unwieldy dimensions, skippy feel to the sanding action and some question marks over the bayonet hose fitting.

I was going to put the old sander straight on eBay, but I am just reconsidering that now.

Hope that is of interest to someone.


Cheers


Edit: I didn't mention the new clip-on edge guard that you can see sitting in the Systainer - I never felt a need for one on the old sander as it was very easy to control right up to a sensitive edge.  Maybe the new sander is a bit more aggressive such that the guard will be useful, I don't know - to my mind it just makes it more bulky so is more likely to get in the way.



« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 06:00 AM by scholar »

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Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 615
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2016, 06:41 AM »
Just curious,

In your third photo (showing the back area), what is the circular indentation for just to the left of the cord plug in (where the speed switch was located on the original sander)?

Nice review by the way!
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline scholar

  • Posts: 127
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2016, 07:13 AM »
Just curious,

In your third photo (showing the back area), what is the circular indentation for just to the left of the cord plug in (where the speed switch was located on the original sander)?

Nice review by the way!

If you zoom in you can see that it is an imaginary depiction of the mythical man who reads the manual - ridiculous idea, I know...


Offline Mike B

  • Posts: 73
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2016, 08:49 AM »
Thanks for the detailed review - been looking forward to their release in Oz. I am disappointed it's increased in size somewhat. New hose fitting seems unnecessary as well.
I find myself (re)considering the older model now...

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 555
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2016, 09:22 AM »
@Skolar  If I were in your situation, I’d keep the older RTS and turn it into a DTS permanently.

Nice review, BTW!
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 Mk2 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 EQ · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · Kapex KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer A3 31 Silent Power · Hammer N4400 · Hammer HS950 

Offline David Werkheiser

  • Posts: 92
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2016, 09:34 AM »
Very good review, do not think I will be replacing my RTS400 at this time as its still working well. I am surprised that Festool did not add something to bleed off some of the vacuum, even at the lowest setting of the vac, when you are in the center of a panel, the sander will slow down due to excessive suction and move around errratically.
I have closed off 2 of the center inlet dust ports with tape and it helps, does the new sander still have this problem.
I still really like this sander, I use it mostly for sanding with 320x between finish coats.
David

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4302
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2016, 09:44 AM »
It would be good for Festool to make a variable gate nozzle for the end of the hose similar to the Fein version but with the rubber bit that Festools need.

Online Alex

  • Posts: 6185
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2016, 11:34 AM »
[* the one issue I had was that the switch got rather stiff to operate and that annoyed me thinking that it would need a new switch unit - however, having just checked it all over prior to on-selling, I took the top cover off to find that the rocker switch clicks over two pins - a quick clean off of the old grease and a tiny dab of new polyurethane grease means that it is operating better than new!]

If you still have the sander, open it up again and clean all the grease out. Putting grease inside is a quick way to kill the sander. As the sander heats up during use, so will the grease and it will liquify, going all through the sander's electrical innerts.

To fix the switch action, just brush the two pins with a dremel fitted with a metal wire brush.

Offline scholar

  • Posts: 127
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2016, 11:44 AM »
Alex

I'm pretty sure that there was the remnants of old grease on the pins - they actually pulled out quite easily as did the rocker - the amount of grease I put on the claws on the ends of the rocket was too minuscule to do any harm anyway.

Cheers


Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 280
Availability of RTS 400 REQ
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2016, 12:02 PM »
When will it hit NA?

Continue to share views whether to wait for the REQ or order the EQ now. My old Porter Cable 4x4 needs to be retired.
Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

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"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

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don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Availability of RTS 400 REQ
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2016, 12:20 PM »
When will it hit NA?

Continue to share views whether to wait for the REQ or order the EQ now. My old Porter Cable 4x4 needs to be retired.

We usually get new tools a year to a year and half after Europe.  Since this is a replacement for older models the release date will probably be determined by the amount of the "old" models Festool USA has sitting in their warehouse.  When the old models are gone we'll see the news one here, at least that is my guess.  Who knows how long that will be.

Edited to add: See Cheese's post below on a November ETA.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 02:00 PM by Brice Burrell »
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Online Alex

  • Posts: 6185
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2016, 01:09 PM »
I'm pretty sure that there was the remnants of old grease on the pins - they actually pulled out quite easily as did the rocker - the amount of grease I put on the claws on the ends of the rocket was too minuscule to do any harm anyway.

No, they don't come with grease from the factory. I've opened up quite a number of these sanders by now to clean or repair them, including some stuck switches, and the pins never have grease on them. But you can find a combination of rust and sanding gunk on those pins, and that makes the switch stick.

I once bought two of these sanders, defective, in the hope I could repair them, only to find out somebody had greased them up inside, just a small amount, but due to liquification of the grease everything inside was coated with a thin layer of grease. Literally every part.

Anyway, no point to go deeper into this. Nice review and have fun with your new sander.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6595
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2016, 01:13 PM »
When will it hit NA?

Slated for November...around the same time as the SYS Rock.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 01:16 PM by Cheese »

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 615
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2016, 06:55 PM »
It would be good for Festool to make a variable gate nozzle for the end of the hose similar to the Fein version but with the rubber bit that Festools need.

Or, like the one they include with the Hand Sanding Blocks, that I use with the HSK D21.5 5m hose.
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4302
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2016, 07:53 PM »
It would be good for Festool to make a variable gate nozzle for the end of the hose similar to the Fein version but with the rubber bit that Festools need.

Or, like the one they include with the Hand Sanding Blocks, that I use with the HSK D21.5 5m hose.

Looks like that is part of the tool rather than the hose. Hope they make a compact hose fitting.

Offline Cheese

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Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2016, 10:00 AM »
Looks like that is part of the tool rather than the hose. Hope they make a compact hose fitting.

If I remember correctly, I've removed that bypass adapter from the sanding block from time to time. It's a simple push/pull friction fitting.

Edit...I just looked on Ekat and the fitting is called a bypass vent, part number 706 927, $14.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 10:14 AM by Cheese »

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2016, 11:24 AM »
If I remember correctly, I've removed that bypass adapter from the sanding block from time to time. It's a simple push/pull friction fitting.

Edit...I just looked on Ekat and the fitting is called a bypass vent, part number 706 927, $14.

Okay, you've removed it, then what? [tongue]  I assume you are saying it fits on other tools??
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Cheese

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Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2016, 05:24 PM »
Okay, you've removed it, then what? [tongue]  I assume you are saying it fits on other tools??

I can remember removing it but I can't remember the reason I removed it.  [eek] [eek]

Probably to try fitting it to something else, not sure, that was probably 3 years ago. [smile]

Offline TSO Products

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Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2016, 08:32 PM »
very well done and useful review! much appreciated.

About excessive suction: I experienced that when I started with this sander years ago and solved the problem with a commercially available rubber adapter (no brand) between the hose and the sander - then just drilled bleed air holes into the adapter - problem solved.
Hans
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Offline scholar

  • Posts: 127
Re: New RTS 400 REQ vs Old RTS 400 EQ ....hmm
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2016, 08:08 AM »
An update:

I have submitted some further comments on the new Cleantec hose connector here http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/new-cleantec-hose-connectors/ I am no more enamoured.

I tried the RTS 400 with the supplied dust bag, rather than the vacuum. My experience was that this does make life a bit quieter, because you do not have the noise of the vac.  However, whilst the bag does collect a fair quantity of dust, the dust collection efficiency is seriously compromised - in 20mins or so usage, off and on, I was very uncomfortable with the dust I could feel at the back of my throat and a fair bit of dust was deposited on the workpiece. Here are a couple of pics (I was sanding the edge of this 40mm chipboard worktop for final scribing to a rough wall - the sander worked fine btw).




The first pic shows more problems with the new style bayonet spigot and the second shows the dust left on the workpiece - when using the vac extraction, there is zero detectable dust deposited on the workpiece and no physical discomfort from dust. I noted earlier that I never used the old style bag on the original RTS 400 EQ, so I do not have a comparison with that.

Dust collection always was one of Festool's key points and it was the first thing that got me into the concept of a designed tool system - suffice it to say that I shall not be using the sander without vac extraction and I would not recommend it.

Cheers

« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 08:13 AM by scholar »