Festool Owners Group
FESTOOL DISCUSSIONS => Festool Tool Reviews => Topic started by: jools on June 12, 2015, 04:57 AM
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Took delivery of the HKC 55 this morning in a 90 year sys4. This is the bare unit as I have plenty of batteries from the drills which are only 4.2 but seem to work fine. Also received all three rails in 250, 420 and 670 lengths. First impressions are very good. Very quiet is the first thing that strikes and the weight which is good at 4 kilos with battery.
First cuts where cutting 47 x 195 c16 flooring joists to length. Measure length, set stops to 0 degrees, line up splinter guard and cut. Clean cut and the saw went through no problems. The rail numbers refer to length of cut so used the 250. I cut 11 in total with no change in battery life indicator. Next cuts where in t&g 22mm chipboard flooring. Again no problem for the saw and 670 rail. Made 8 cuts so far and the battery indicator still shows full.
The only things of note so far are lack of dust extraction which after the ts55 and Kapex is a shock but this is a first fix tool and the 2 small rails will not fit in the same bag so gonna have to buy another. The bag is however very well padded to cope with the stops which stick out. Really looking forward to using this in the next couple of weeks and happy to answer any questions
Kind regards
Jools
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It doesn't have dust extraction as an option? I missed that during all the other convos about this saw.
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The only things of note so far are lack of dust extraction
Bit confused by that comment. Clearly there's a dust extraction port...
[attachimg=1]
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I'll hazard a guess it didn't come with a bag .. ?
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Yes there's a dust extraction port and it fits the midi fine but I'm up on a scaffold so it's not available. I usually cut every thing on the ground but as I work alone going up and down all the time is a pain. Not sure if the TSC bag would fit although the elbow twists off to reveal the same fitting I think. No dust bag is supplied in the basic kit may be different in the others
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The TSC55 bag fits, it's the same part number.
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... bearing in mind Festools reputation for dust collection, it's a surprise and a shame the bag is not included with the saw - first fix or not.
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Yes it is 500393 and about £30 pounds. I will have to order one up when I get the additional rail bag.
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Not sure if the TSC bag would fit
OK. Makes more sense now. Yes, the TSC bag fits - it's a standard option for the HKC 55.
SB-TSC dust collector bag; Order no. 500393
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If Festool USA wanted an amateur woodworker to make a video showing the use of the HKC and other Festools in the construction of a garden shed, I volunteer.
This summer please. I will return it when done. I promise.
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can it be used left handed as there is no right hand support on the base
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I wouldn't really recommend using left handed. I'm right handed so everything feels natural for me. When people who are left handed have picked it up and used it left handed thier hands end up getting crossed over. A lad I worked with who is left handed had difficulty using left handed. When I've got him to use right handed he managed a lot better
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Where did you get it from? I have been told up to 4 weeks for delivery.
John..
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Got mine today from FFX, only ordered 2 days ago as my French supplier could not deliver until August. Won't have a chance to try until Tuesday... feels good quality though.
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Where did you get it from? I have been told up to 4 weeks for delivery.
John..
@neth27 -Try http://www.powertool-supplies.co.uk/ (http://www.powertool-supplies.co.uk/) - cheapest in UK and very reliable.
~WW
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Where did you get it from? I have been told up to 4 weeks for delivery.
John..
@neth27 -Try http://www.powertool-supplies.co.uk/ (http://www.powertool-supplies.co.uk/) - cheapest in UK and very reliable.
~WW
Thats where i ordered it from [big grin]
John...
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I went to the Toolfair in Manchester on Thursday, and they had them there and for sale on the Festool stand - they only had 4 of them, though! Thursday was the first day & I was there fairly early; don't know how many were left by Friday...
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whats it like using it free hand ? are there good accurate marks on the base to use freehand ? the rail looks very cumbersome and expensive. and does it take one or two 18v batts?
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whats it like using it free hand ? are there good accurate marks on the base to use freehand ? the rail looks very cumbersome and expensive. and does it take one or two 18v batts?
One 18v battery.
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Got mine today, one thing i will say is you need very small hands to use it comfortably. My knuckles are crushed against the side [sad]
john...
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that is a shame John, did you get to try it before you ordered it?
Received mine today from N&B, luckily I have small hands so feels nice to me. I did expect it to be a bit more compact but am happy with the saw as it is.
What's up with the blade that comes as standard with it? It has TS55 and TSC crossed out so is that blade not compatible with those saws? (I don't own either of them yet but interested if it was compatible).
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What's up with the blade that comes as standard with it? It has TS55 and TSC crossed out so is that blade not compatible with those saws? (I don't own either of them yet but interested if it was compatible).
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It is one of the issues that i believe stops a lot of people investing into festool saws, CS 50, ts 55, and now the hk 55 all use differant sized blades, as does the ts 75, cs 70 and the sym 70 so you need to spend a lot of money kitting out each saw with blades, why not have one size 55 and one size 75, good for festool but i see it as entrapment and profiteering
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philphilop:
The sales rep was not too happy about this. The kerf on the HKC55 blades are thinner (1,8mm?) than on the other Festool plunge saw blades and they are not deemed "compatible".
It is very easy to mistake the new blades for the old ones so I predict a lot of confusion and angry customers the following year...
It should be a different color packaging and very easy to tell them apart.
To further add to the confusion the aluminium/metal sheet cutting blades are 2,2mm so there are thicker blades available for the HKC55 but when you use them you cut the strip down a little more as well.
I am not sure how well this saw will work as a plunge saw for kitchen sinks (my Mafell KSS300 works "ok") but it does seem like a saw aimed at flooring and panel sawing where I think it might do a great job but it does not feel like a "complete" saw.
The other double battery saw does not interest me at all (two batteries tied up in one machine? No thanks...) all in all I will stick to corded plunge saws as I want trouble free vacuum integration and for me the new battery saws are not adding any value in my production or workflow - almost the opposite.
Sure - if you are on site and have no electric power the saws make sense - that hasn't happened to me more than once or twice the past eight years so I think I will stick to bringing my corded tools for finer sawing and my 18V tools for other daily tasks. For most months of the year over here it goes like this: no electricity, no light (daylight that is...) and no heat so I don't take jobs in environments where electricity is not supplied on site.
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Got mine today, one thing i will say is you need very small hands to use it comfortably. My knuckles are crushed against the side [sad]
john...
Try holding it "pistol grip" style. Like you would a C-Drill. Your bigger knuckles will be a little higger and out the way.
Thats how I use my TS55 anyway.
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Im just used to holding a circular saw the way i do. It keeps a good grip on it [big grin]
john...
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Just to clarify on aluminum blades. There is little to no protrusions with the tooth set. Essentially the blade plate is about as thick as the kerf. It shouldn't cut into your track
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Most people i know, a lot, only use their portable saws for cutting floorboards @30mm, plinths and architraves @25mm, sheets @22mm and framing @35mm so why dont festool make a smaller portable saw like the KSS 300 which is very popular in all diciplines of woodworking, very light and small. Word has it that the TSC is a flop in Europe because of its heavy unbalanced feel and the fact that it eats batteries, so dealers down here in southern europe are reluctant to stock an 18v heavy HKC in fear of it staying on stock.
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Word has it that the TSC is a flop in Europe because of its heavy unbalanced feel and the fact that it eats batteries, so dealers down here in southern europe are reluctant to stock an 18v heavy HKC in fear of it staying on stock.
Festool have sold far more than they were hoping to, and can't produce them fast enough to meet the demand - hardly a 'flop'...
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Word has it that the TSC is a flop in Europe because of its heavy unbalanced feel and the fact that it eats batteries, so dealers down here in southern europe are reluctant to stock an 18v heavy HKC in fear of it staying on stock.
Festool have sold far more than they were hoping to, and can't produce them fast enough to meet the demand - hardly a 'flop'...
Yeh - love to hear the source of "flop" ... sounds like a pork pie.
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Just to clarify on aluminum blades. There is little to no protrusions with the tooth set. Essentially the blade plate is about as thick as the kerf. It shouldn't cut into your track
Ok, could you elaborate a little on that?
The kerf on the "standard" blades are 1,8mm (three of them) and the kerf on the two "special" blades are 2,2mm - how would that not affect the cutting strip?
(I might be wrong about this but) I think both the special blades (TF52/TF48) are for _the TS55 saw system_ and therefore have the wrong blade thickness. They are listed for the other saws at Festool but also included in the HKC55 accessory line up.
From what I gather the HKC55 blades are not compatible with the TS55 and derivatives (hence the cross out symbol) but the other way around works - though the kerf is different and that would have you changing the cutting strip everytime you switch blades or lose accuracy.
Different kerf sizes are a pain in the neck I think. Especially with the Mafell style clip on rails.
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Just to clarify on aluminum blades. There is little to no protrusions with the tooth set. Essentially the blade plate is about as thick as the kerf. It shouldn't cut into your track
Ok, could you elaborate a little on that?
The kerf on the "standard" blades are 1,8mm (three of them) and the kerf on the two "special" blades are 2,2mm - how would that not affect the cutting strip?
(I might be wrong about this but) I think both the special blades (TF52/TF48) are for _the TS55 saw system_ and therefore have the wrong blade thickness. They are listed for the other saws at Festool but also included in the HKC55 accessory line up.
From what I gather the HKC55 blades are not compatible with the TS55 and derivatives (hence the cross out symbol) but the other way around works - though the kerf is different and that would have you changing the cutting strip everytime you switch blades or lose accuracy.
Different kerf sizes are a pain in the neck I think. Especially with the Mafell style clip on rails.
The issue is not the kerf, it's where the kerf is cut relative to the saws position on the track. This may be a non issue ... and I'm hoping Festool thought this through.
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I thought that the saw's arbor was in a fixed position relative to the chassis and that tracks position is also fixed relative to the chassis.
As the arbor is on the left of the blade, and the splinter strip is also facing right, then the left hand side (LHS) of the blade should be in a constant position relative to splinter strip??
If it was thinker blades and teeth bit the teeth to thickness was constant then it would not seem to be an issue.
Or are we saying the blade's teeth's left hand side may vary in offset from the blade's arbor surface?
i.e. the blades have a constant base thickness, but the teeth can be wider or narrower?
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I thought that the saw's arbor was in a fixed position relative to the chassis and that tracks position is also fixed relative to the chassis.
As the arbor is on the left of the blade, and the splinter strip is also facing right, then the left hand side (LHS) of the blade should be in a constant position relative to splinter strip??
If it was thinker blades and teeth bit the teeth to thickness was constant then it would not seem to be an issue.
Or are we saying the blade's teeth's left hand side may vary in offset from the blade's arbor surface?
i.e. the blades have a constant base thickness, but the teeth can be wider or narrower?
You said it better! [wink] Can't find any blade profile shots ...
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That's exactly my thinking as well
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Let's clear this out if somebody of Festool (UK?) gives an explanation about this.
They should know how they designed the saw blade position.
It would stop a lot of confusion about the different kerves of the blades relative to the splinter strip.
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I thought that the saw's arbor was in a fixed position relative to the chassis and that tracks position is also fixed relative to the chassis.
As the arbor is on the left of the blade, and the splinter strip is also facing right, then the left hand side (LHS) of the blade should be in a constant position relative to splinter strip??
If it was thinker blades and teeth bit the teeth to thickness was constant then it would not seem to be an issue.
Or are we saying the blade's teeth's left hand side may vary in offset from the blade's arbor surface?
i.e. the blades have a constant base thickness, but the teeth can be wider or narrower?
You said it better! [wink] Can't find any blade profile shots ...
You usually word things better than me, but I am happy to team up.
If we get a third we can have matching shirts... [wink]
With a micrometer or calliper, then one should be able to just measure the base material and across the teeth to see if the delta is constant?
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Word has it that the TSC is a flop in Europe because of its heavy unbalanced feel and the fact that it eats batteries, so dealers down here in southern europe are reluctant to stock an 18v heavy HKC in fear of it staying on stock.
Festool have sold far more than they were hoping to, and can't produce them fast enough to meet the demand - hardly a 'flop'...
Says Who
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Word has it that the TSC is a flop in Europe because of its heavy unbalanced feel and the fact that it eats batteries, so dealers down here in southern europe are reluctant to stock an 18v heavy HKC in fear of it staying on stock.
Festool have sold far more than they were hoping to, and can't produce them fast enough to meet the demand - hardly a 'flop'...
Says Who
Obviously not you ... you're too busy not supporting your initial bash at the product!
Demand exceeded supply in Australia when I was buying mine. Maybe our arms are a little stronger that the average southern european.
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Once again says who
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Once again says who
I find this highly amusing. You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder ... SAYS ME [big grin]
Mouse getting heavy?
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Since we are gossiping I will chime in on what I have heard [big grin] and that is that the demand IS higher than the production run and that is mainly because of the start up problems with a delay on the HKC55 due to a understrength/faulty component being replaced. This caused a temporary halt in production and a backlog on orders.
Since production has been so low and demand has been fairly high I think it is pointless to debate "demand vs production" on the HKC 55. If you combine all markets of course demand will be higher than initial supply at release - if Festool had managed to stock up before delivery then demand and production might have been more balanced. Once the first "rush" is over then we will see how popular it really is.
In Sweden the vendors don't have the sets available due to short supply (not the same as high demand) but they sell the rail guides separately at set prices with the "Basic" HKC55. At least the two that I have spoken to, the two largest vendors.
I like the HKC55 but it doesn't have a given place in my set up and is a little limited. The TSC55 is even less appealing, mainly due to poor vac integration and the twin-battery solution. Together they complement each other well but at a very high cost and compromising on the on site vac integration and who would want to haul both around?
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Once again says who
I find this highly amusing. You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder ... SAYS ME [big grin]
Mouse getting heavy?
You said that supply outstripped demand when you ordered one, so tell me who told you that information, I don't have a chip on my shoulder i just ak a simple question which needs a simple answer because their is a glut of them in France and the UK.
You need to move on in life, mice are history in this part of the world, touch pads and voice commands are the norm now.
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Ive owned one for a week and I am happy. It does what it is designed for. It's a 18v battery framing/cross cut saw. That's it. Not complicated. Don't moan that it doesn't do what it's not designed too. If I'm 10m in the air on scaffold framing a roof it's brilliant. Cutting batten to length, brilliant. Cutting chip board flooring, standing on what you lay, brilliant. It comes with its own rails in 3 lengths and if you can flatten a battery and fix the bits you've cut before the next ones charged your a lot quicker than I am. If I was to cut 1200 x 2400 sheet goods for sheathing I would use the TSC55 and the 2700 rail again brilliant I'm up a height and the last thing I need is cables and hoses in the way. If I'm working in a kitchen fit decent electric is available and I use the TS55. Would I use the HKC for a cut out in solid oak counter top, No, just the same as most users don't mitre with a of1010. Will the TSC do a cut out yes and the OF1400 will mitre countertop. But if I fitted kitchens all week I would want the TS55 and the OF2200, the best for the job. I think the quote is " you can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time". As to stock levels, production numbers or wether it's a flop or not who cares. The tool is in my hands and I'm using and liking it and it's helping to earn my living. Says Me [big grin]
Regards Jools
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Sounds like the saw is working perfectly for your needs
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Most people i know, a lot, only use their portable saws for cutting floorboards @30mm, plinths and architraves @25mm, sheets @22mm and framing @35mm so why dont festool make a smaller portable saw like the KSS 300 which is very popular in all diciplines of woodworking, very light and small. Word has it that the TSC is a flop in Europe because of its heavy unbalanced feel and the fact that it eats batteries, so dealers down here in southern europe are reluctant to stock an 18v heavy HKC in fear of it staying on stock.
Festool - USA, please note that "southern europe does not choose to stock", please send theirs to the US, they will be sold.......Festool HKC 55 EB Li-Basic 18v Circular Saw Bare Unit in SYS 4 T-LOC would be fine, no need for the chargers or the batteries, please also ship the rails, they should have no problem with UL.
EDIT> fixed quote box
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Ive owned one for a week and I am happy. It does what it is designed for. It's a 18v battery framing/cross cut saw. That's it. Not complicated. Don't moan that it doesn't do what it's not designed too. If I'm 10m in the air on scaffold framing a roof it's brilliant. Cutting batten to length, brilliant. Cutting chip board flooring, standing on what you lay, brilliant. It comes with its own rails in 3 lengths and if you can flatten a battery and fix the bits you've cut before the next ones charged your a lot quicker than I am. If I was to cut 1200 x 2400 sheet goods for sheathing I would use the TSC55 and the 2700 rail again brilliant I'm up a height and the last thing I need is cables and hoses in the way. If I'm working in a kitchen fit decent electric is available and I use the TS55. Would I use the HKC for a cut out in solid oak counter top, No, just the same as most users don't mitre with a of1010. Will the TSC do a cut out yes and the OF1400 will mitre countertop. But if I fitted kitchens all week I would want the TS55 and the OF2200, the best for the job. I think the quote is " you can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time". As to stock levels, production numbers or wether it's a flop or not who cares. The tool is in my hands and I'm using and liking it and it's helping to earn my living. Says Me [big grin]
Regards Jools
You've nailed it (sorry) ...
Festool makes tools with a particular set of tasks in mind. They're not into making something that can be used as a piano, peel carrots and walk the dog.
Just because something is a saw, it's not intended to saw EVERYTHING in every situation.
The HKC, TSC and TS 55's are three different tools with obvious similarities.
Just for info sake I'd like to pose a question ... How many of us dance around the work shop (listening to the latest incarnation of Abba) waving their track saws above their heads? Just curious. If the number is high I believe there may be a new specific use market for Festool to address.
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Here is a suggestion: How about we continue talking about the saw civilly (should be a universally understood phrase) and leave the other baggage off of the forum.
Peter Halle - Moderator
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Now as to the HKC 55, I am looking forward to its Australian release and have started saving.
Yes, my Festool saving sock is ripe (no cheese references intended here) ... it was on hold while I waited to win the Vecturo I so obviously deserved [mad] [sad]
Now if Northern Abrasives just got the "online sales" part of their online store happening. ROB???
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Country and culture bashing posts have been removed. Not OK on FOG.
Seth
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I will investigate blade thickness on Monday as I will pick up some Fessy-stuff anyway and will be able to cross compare in shop and with a caliper.
I do believe that the blades are actually thinner than the standard plunge saw blades (as the Mafell ones are) and hence the crossed out compatibility symbol. I think that using thinner blades that aren't compatible with the existing machines is a problem for the end user - blades are not cheap and buying a spare blade would be a more complicated matter - especially if they are not cross compatible.
Unless any moderators or other members can chime in on the matter I will post back on Monday afternoon (CET).
Snippet from the manual:
"Only saw blades with the following specifications can be used: saw blade diameter 160 mm; recommended cutting width 1,8 mm, max. 2.2 mm with restricted function of guide wedge; locating bore 20 mm; recommended steel blade thickness 1,5 mm, max. 1.8 mm."
See my underscore: this might imply that the guide wedge is around 1,8mm?
See last paragraph: This implies that the blades are 1,5 to 1,8mm thick, i.e. slimmer than the other plunge saw blades?
I think the main point is lack of compatibility with the other battery operated saw - for the TSC55 the HKC blades are not an option and for the HKC the TSC55 blades are not recommended. I think this is a serious flaw as they would complement each other more of they shared blades.
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It could be a matter of how the saw pivots for bevel cuts. What is the thickness of the hkc guide? Does it differ from standard Festool tracks? Perhaps the geometry of the saw differs to accommodate this. Or, given it is only a 93.6 max wattage motor, it is underpowered for thicker blades. Back to my original statement regarding kerf thickness, particularly with aluminum blades, if the kerf is thicker, this increase is mainly on the offcut side, as the teeth only protrude a fraction of a mm outside of the blade body. I really can't see that protrusion being more than the supplied blade. It's perhaps even less. I do not own this saw or festools aluminum blades but I did investigate the aluminum blades at my local dealer, as this question has come up before.
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Ghostfist: I think that the supplied/offered HKC blade is a bit thinner in material than all the other _regular_ Festool blades.
Given the actual power of the HKC55 I would be surprised if the blades were not thinner.
I know you are well familiar with the Mafell offerings and I haven't used a TS55 in a few years but from memory the Festool blades are thicker. (I use the Mafell KSS300 and Bosch GKT55CE, both Plug it fitted).
I am thinking more of the splinter strip and and "flipkeil" and not so much the height of the HKC guide. I would be surprised if the HKC didn't pivot like the Mafell "equivalent" saw does.
I have toyed with the HKC55 and the shortrails "feel" like the standard rails in height but I am not definitely sure on that.
I like some of the Festool improvements on the HKC55 over the Mafell version, both the release on the rail stop and the plunge action for the cutting wedge is better implemented on the HKC55. The depth guide is very smart showing on/off rail always but I don't know if it is the same on the KSS400.
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Just for info sake I'd like to pose a question ... How many of us dance around the work shop (listening to the latest incarnation of Abba) waving their track saws above their heads? Just curious. If the number is high I believe there may be a new specific use market for Festool to address.
I do, though sometimes I like a change and do it to AC/DC.
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Just for info sake I'd like to pose a question ... How many of us dance around the work shop (listening to the latest incarnation of Abba) waving their track saws above their heads? Just curious. If the number is high I believe there may be a new specific use market for Festool to address.
I do, though sometimes I like a change and do it to AC/DC.
Well Kev you did ask! [big grin]
Rail screwed to ceiling whilst working a while back on our big city Reno.
Would'nt say I exactly waved the TS55 around doing this! [eek]
[attachimg=2]
Re the HKC 55, I am saving. Anyone know any good rumours re the Aussie release date?
@Kev @andy5405
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I think Oz has slipped down the international release ladder. Whodunnit? Hmm.
Realistically I'd be taking up the desire for a HKC with Santa if you're in Oz.
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Original release date was Aug/Sept but apparently the demand is out stripping supply and the downunder release date keeps being put back.
Hopefully Sept/Oct but i think it could even be after Santa if everyone else keeps buying up the available production.
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I think Oz has slipped down the international release ladder. Whodunnit? Hmm.
Realistically I'd be taking up the desire for a HKC with Santa if you're in Oz.
Yes Kev and Larso.
I understand that Festool Aust is already planing the Christmas release with a video that goes something like this -
http://youtu.be/hMKIZunczFA (http://youtu.be/hMKIZunczFA)
Audio - Royalty Free from ITunes.
@Larso @Kev
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I think Oz has slipped down the international release ladder. Whodunnit? Hmm.
Realistically I'd be taking up the desire for a HKC with Santa if you're in Oz.
Yes Kev and Larso.
I understand that Festool Aust is already planing the Christmas release with a video that goes something like this -
http://youtu.be/hMKIZunczFA (http://youtu.be/hMKIZunczFA)
Audio - Royalty Free from ITunes.
@Larso @Kev
I hope Peter and Seth aren't in charge of the naughty or nice list ... we could be in trouble [eek] [big grin]
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I received my hkc 55 and short rail today and put it through its paces
very impressed - it makes an excellent 2nd fix saw, my tsc55 will be coming out of the van now and into early retirement
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2nd day in and i was ripping some lengths of mdf with a 45 on my rail, stopped and went to lift the saw out as i would my ts55
I forgot the blade does not retract and I've taken a half circle out of my rail [crying]
Other than that the saw is good
I have found it easier to drop a standard rail on for cross cutting than use the special rail
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I have been to the Festool dealership twice during the week but I have been so busy with "catching up" at work as well as picking up warranty repairs (Festool sander... ...grrrr...) and general chit chat about tools and I have totally forgotten about checking up on the blade variation.
I will try to remember the caliper on monday... ...I do think that if Festool labels blades as not recommended and even crossed out there is a reason for that and that reason is most likely the lack of cross compatibility between blades and machines. I hope to be able to help sort out the blade issues but none that I have spoken to so far have been more informed (including Festool employees) than we already are in this thread - so the question marks remain.
ifit: ouch! I have some nicks on my Mafell rail and had to replace the splinter strip due to a colleague doing exactly what you did. After that he doesn't want to borrow my Mafell - and I don't let him. ;)
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I got my HKC 55 Li 5,2 EB-Plus-FSK420 today! WOHOOO, its awesome! but i beliewd that the saw was smaller, its
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Popped in to the dealership yesterday and confirmed that the HKC 55 blades are indeed thinner and though I am not knowing if the digital caliper was up to scratch it would at least reveal the difference in blade thickness, kerf width excluded.
Standard TS55 W48 blade measured to 1.65mm blade thickness.
Standard HKC 55 blade (supplied with the machine) 1.24mm blade thickness.
amcore: let us know how you like it after a little while. :)
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Standard TS55 W48 blade measured to 1.65mm blade thickness.
Standard HKC 55 blade (supplied with the machine) 1.24mm blade thickness.
The offset from the blade arbor to the inside cutting edge (i.e. the edge of the splinter guard) would be: (tooth width minus plate width) divided by 2.
So based on those measurements, the offset on the TS(C) would be (2.2 - 1.65) /2 = 0.275mm;
The offset on the HKC would be (1.8 - 1.24) /2 = 0.28mm.
Therefore, the difference in the offsets is 0.005mm, which is negligible, and probably less than the accuracy of the calipers used (I suspect that the reading of 1.24mm is actually 1.25mm, making the difference zero).
I would propose that the only reason that the HKC blades shouldn't be used on the TS(C) is that the riving knife on the TS(C) would be too thick, and would bind in the cut. I don't see any reason why, if a thinner riving knife was fitted at the same time, they couldn't be used. Though of course I'm sure Festool would not recommend that...
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I would propose that the only reason that the HKC blades shouldn't be used on the TS(C) is that the riving knife on the TS(C) would be too thick, and would bind in the cut. I don't see any reason why, if a thinner riving knife was fitted at the same time, they couldn't be used. Though of course I'm sure Festool would not recommend that...
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Correct
rg
Phil
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Ok my [2cents] oh this great saw it will do anything any more a cordless skill saw will do its up there as one of my best tools. but my one gripe with it us it should come with the side fence for the jobs you need to have a bit of a body on that side of the saw
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Could also be because the thinner plate won't clamp tight to the arbor !
Dave
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Jonnyroundboy: yes, I would say that it might as well have been 1.25 mm, I did three takes on both blades and got same readings on two out of three readings on the HKC55 blade and same reading on all three on the standard blade. Thanks for doing the maths. It seems like a non issue then. :)
I concur that the riving knife would be the limiting factor - and I think we established that quite early in the thread - no?
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I used mine for cutting a lot of mdc last week then this week i used it for cutting the bottoms off fire doors and it seemed a bit underpowered so not sure if I have dulled the blade or it is a bit underpowered for fire doors
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If you were cutting the doors in one go I am sure the machine struggled some. Did you cut in one pass or several?
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@ifit Likely wrong blade choice for ripping. The supplied blade is suitable for coarse cross cutting. Like the ts55 the panther blade will be a better bet for rip cuts. I have however ripped treated framing timbers with the standard blade with ok results. MDF is fairly abrasive on blades so it could have dulled.
@Nippychippy I agree on the the parallel guide being included. £42.12 list price is a bit steep.
Have we a definitive answer on using it on ordinary rails? Does it recut the splinter guard thus affecting your ts55 cut?
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That's weird @jools mine didn't
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It wasn't included in mine, I was agreeing it should be and its an expensive accessory. It's also different (500464) to the fence that fits both the TS55 and TSC55(491467)
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If you were cutting the doors in one go I am sure the machine struggled some. Did you cut in one pass or several?
1 pass
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Ive use mine on my ts rails - didn't notice any recut of the splinter edge and it cuts to where i set the rail, I don't know if its exact but must be close and is plenty close enough for site work
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Ifit: thank you for that. Good to know.
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2nd day in and i was ripping some lengths of mdf with a 45 on my rail, stopped and went to lift the saw out as i would my ts55
I forgot the blade does not retract and I've taken a half circle out of my rail [crying]
Other than that the saw is good
I have found it easier to drop a standard rail on for cross cutting than use the special rail
It is also possible to do that on plunge if the saw is not indexed on the rail.
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Got a brief hands-on with this bad boy on the weekend. If I was still doing much carpentry, I'd be champing at the bit for it to come out! I'd be surprised if any carpenter/builder/renovater couldn't find a use for it. I don't think the promo vids really show its full capability - even without the rails, it has a number of great improvements over a normal circ saw. Weight is not one of them though.. With the guide rails, the thing would be indispensable for any work such as cutting in a roof. You could do without a drop saw if you had to.
We were told September release for Australia.
P.S. not sure if it's been mentioned, but the thin kerf size is apparently so they could keep the weight down by needing less power and therefore have one battery rather than two.
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Some video available:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5egq59xrCuo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5egq59xrCuo)
russian, 4.20 start sawing (35mm dry pine).
Verdict is good saw for cutting (left side of the cut is without chips, and about right side we dont care).
If you need a super good cut quality at both sides it can be use as "Mafell 55 cc style": first crop of ~2 mm (with some materials at reverse direction) and after it cut at full size (50mm).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqdSzVsrFGo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqdSzVsrFGo)
poland, just closer look.
I think this saw is better, than mafell kss 300/400 (if hkc's accs works for about 5-6+ years or you have C15(18)/BHC).
About kss 80 ec:
same price, mafell cuts better, due to old school engine with variable speed and missing fast stop (*3 times longer stop, than fe), but 8+ kg saw is bad + no systainer.
So at 2015:
mafell jig (p1 cc) >> FE carvex. mafell mt 55 cc > FE tsr 55. FE hkc > mafell 300/400. FE tsc 55 > mafell cordless. Mafell 80+ saws > all, coz fe has nothing (19** year last model hello).
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Just ordered the HKC plus kit with the 2 batteries the 420 track the 250 track, and the crosscut blade. I have the TS 75 for thicker stock and hardwoods, but it's bulky and heavy for small dimension crosscuts. so I got on board with the HKC. I don't absolutely need the cordless functionality but it can come in handy. As for dust collection I'll just hook it up to my CT midi when working inside, outside work who cares about a little dust.. I'm stoked!
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Here are some photos from the HKC55 on my 80cm TS55 Rail. There is no recut on the splinter guard.
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The left side of the kerf remains the same with regard to the saw and the strip, no matter the blade thickness. All increase in kerf thickness is to the right. Unless the teeth are splayed more it wont cut the strip.
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Hi. I'm about to invest in a lot of Festool tools to make a http://festoolownersgroup.com/workshops-and-mobile-vehicle-based-shops/building-a-lean-mean-portable-finish-carpentrywoodwork-machine-(shop)/msg475238/?topicseen#msg475238 (http://festoolownersgroup.com/workshops-and-mobile-vehicle-based-shops/building-a-lean-mean-portable-finish-carpentrywoodwork-machine-(shop)/msg475238/?topicseen#msg475238). My thought was to go with the HKC 55 as my one and only tracksaw and then to add TS 75 if work turns more to furniture/cabinetry. This way, I have cordless functionality, compound miter but also plunge-track functionality.
Any words of wisdom?
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Hi. I'm about to invest in a lot of Festool tools to make a http://festoolownersgroup.com/workshops-and-mobile-vehicle-based-shops/building-a-lean-mean-portable-finish-carpentrywoodwork-machine-(shop)/msg475238/?topicseen#msg475238 (http://festoolownersgroup.com/workshops-and-mobile-vehicle-based-shops/building-a-lean-mean-portable-finish-carpentrywoodwork-machine-(shop)/msg475238/?topicseen#msg475238). My thought was to go with the HKC 55 as my one and only tracksaw and then to add TS 75 if work turns more to furniture/cabinetry. This way, I have cordless functionality, compound miter but also plunge-track functionality.
Any words of wisdom?
Consider carefully what you will be doing.
e.g.
If you are doing all your work on a roof then the TS75 would be a waste, and if all you work is on sheets then a HKC is probably not ideal.
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Hi. I'm about to invest in a lot of Festool tools to make a http://festoolownersgroup.com/workshops-and-mobile-vehicle-based-shops/building-a-lean-mean-portable-finish-carpentrywoodwork-machine-(shop)/msg475238/?topicseen#msg475238 (http://festoolownersgroup.com/workshops-and-mobile-vehicle-based-shops/building-a-lean-mean-portable-finish-carpentrywoodwork-machine-(shop)/msg475238/?topicseen#msg475238). My thought was to go with the HKC 55 as my one and only tracksaw and then to add TS 75 if work turns more to furniture/cabinetry. This way, I have cordless functionality, compound miter but also plunge-track functionality.
Any words of wisdom?
Consider carefully what you will be doing.
e.g.
If you are doing all your work on a roof then the TS75 would be a waste, and if all you work is on sheets then a HKC is probably not ideal.
That's just the thing: I'm hoping that the HKC can give me good enough cuts on sheets with an MFT so that I can just use it for a while. TS 75 can be added down the road but right now I need flexibility and the occasional truly cordless application.
Gosh, I just realized that cutting down cabinet face stock is going to be very inefficient with the HKC because of it having only one clean cut side. Repeatedly cutting down smaller stock for face frames and the like will require twice as many cuts and measurements to get nice clean cuts on all edges. So this really is a "Carpentry Saw" with a few finer applications.... oh well.
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Festool have an incredible line up off saws now on their stall.
I've started working with a company that makes timber trusses that span up to 80 feet clear.
6" x 3"s sided with plywood glued and nailed.
I've introduced these guys to my old ts55 and they are impressed.
Who said festool were only used for kitchens? Just glad its soiled a bit. Taking it out of the box all shiny might be a bit embarrassing. [big grin]
The HKC 85 saw machine is next on my list.
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It is a bit of a knuckle cruncher. And I wouldn't describe my hands as very big. Framing houses since my early teenage years i have used every saw under the sun back to the rockwell porter cable days with the grease cup. Too many hours to count behind a circular saw cutting rafters sometimes all day. To try a new grip that won't give me the control I know works best doesn't interest me. I thought this would be fun for some projects but after an hour of use with knuckles rubbing on the housing (the plunge release lever) felt like I han punched a wall. Great saw performs well, just wish they left more room for a proper grip. Guys without small hands try before you buy. Mine is going back.
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Thanks for the "hands on" review Arvid!
And welcome to the FOG.
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Those Russian guys didn't mention anything about it crunching knuckels and they all have big hands. Its difficult to teach ole dogs new tricks.
Surely just a matter of dexterity and adaption by the more skilled among us? [big grin] [big grin]
The guy in that second video..what an incredible line up of fine tools. I've messaged him in Russian and English to get his opinion on the "knuckle cruncher" issue.
Also why would festool allow the return of a used saw on the word of some one who said its a "knuckle cruncher"?
Would any serious pro not try out the machine before buying?
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North America is BIG. It's often difficult to find a place within a reasonable driving distance to "try out" a tool. Since UPS will bring it you, and Festool offers a 30 return policy (for any or no reason), just order it and then try it, makes the most sense here,
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North America is BIG. It's often difficult to find a place within a reasonable driving distance to "try out" a tool. Since UPS will bring it you, and Festool offers a 30 return policy (for any or no reason), just order it and then try it, makes the most sense here,
Remember you are responsible for return shipping, and accessories are not covered by the 30 day no questions asked return policy.
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The closest festoon retailer to me is woodcraft and they do not always have in stock what you want to look at and also 1-1/2 hour away from me. I was not the only one to mention that the grip rubbed on my knuckles. And many big men bigger then me have small slender fingers and many men smaller then me have sausage fingers. I don't consider my hands to be large but on the medium scale. No other festool saw has given me that problem just the hk55. So i know i am responsible for shipping and will send it back as it was the gamble i took. As to why festool should take back a saw that was tried out i wouldn't call it used. Well because i can buy a saw at any home center and if not happy with it i can return it as well. no questions asked is no questions asked. I have been very happy with all my festools. This one is just not for me. I hold my saw the same way i would hold a 357 with a pistol grip. Any altered grip would give me less control. just trying to give people a friendly heads up if they can try before they buy they should. if not order and live with it or send it back. At the price of the saw i opted to send it back. Might try a mafell 400
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The Mafell hand grip looks the same. They probably copied festool. For those of us with normal sized hands it will probably be fine....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO4E9SMGcAw
The mafell is limited in depth of cut in comparison to the festool.
As you can see from the video.
And weighs a brutal 6kg in comparison to the sensible 4kg of the festool. I'm not convinced with mafell and their prices are off the scale.
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The Mafell hand grip looks the same. They probably copied festool. For those of us with normal sized hands it will probably be fine....
define normal sized hands.
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The Mafell hand grip looks the same. They probably copied festool. For those of us with normal sized hands it will probably be fine....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO4E9SMGcAw
The mafell is limited in depth of cut in comparison to the festool.
As you can see from the video.
And weighs a brutal 6kg in comparison to the sensible 4kg of the festool. I'm not convinced with mafell and their prices are off the scale.
The cutting depth specs for both saws is the same, 55mm off the rail. Is the Mafell rail thicker?
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mafell handle sits higher up too. sits a touch more above the blade housing. yes cutting depth looks to be the same.
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mafell handle sits higher up too. sits a touch more above the blade housing. yes cutting depth looks to be the same.
I have fairly larger hands and I don't have any trouble with the KSS 400. I'm not sure if the handle sits up any higher, but there is a step in the blade housing to give more room for your hand.
[attach=1]
The KSS 400 has slightly more cutting depth on a 45 degree bevel. It can cut all the way through a 2x4 on a 45, the Festool HK saws can't.
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mafell handle sits higher up too. sits a touch more above the blade housing. yes cutting depth looks to be the same.
I have fairly larger hands and I don't have any trouble with the KSS 400. I'm not sure if the handle sits up any higher, but there is a step in the blade housing to give more room for your hand.
(Attachment Link)
The KSS 400 has slightly more cutting depth on a 45 degree bevel. It can cut all the way through a 2x4 on a 45, the Festool HK saws can't.
good info right here. not only does the festool not have the step in the blade housing for more room, but it is the lever that unlocks the plunge feature that steps out from the blade housing that rubs on your knuckles. maybe thats why the russians in the video on the first page are wearing gloves.
I'm not sure but i believe the hk55 can cut a 2x4 beveled at 45 but could be wrong. if it can't then it is even more useless then i thought for me.
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[attach=2][attachimg=1] picture
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The HK saws can not cut a North American 2 x 4 on a 45 degree bevel on a rail. I confirmed that in person last weekend. That is what had previously been reported here and I can confirm that my information came directly from a Festool trainer who had already been asked that question several times before I talked to him.
Peter
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The HK saws can not cut a North American 2 x 4 on a 45 degree bevel on a rail. I confirmed that in person last weekend. That is what had previously been reported here and I can confirm that my information came directly from a Festool trainer who had already been asked that question several times before I talked to him.
Peter
i know i tried it with out being on the rail with no problem, can you confirm if it cuts through a 2x on the rail as well? thats what i did not try out and was not sure of.
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Some good information in this thread -- great to hear some real-world feedback. I have patiently waited for the HK saws to be released as I need a lighter weight saw for processing hardwood. The new KSS60 has even more cutting capacity, but like all things Mafell much higher priced. The hand clearance is not something I would have even thought about had I just ordered online. I will need to check it out in the store first-hand.
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Some good information in this thread -- great to hear some real-world feedback. I have patiently waited for the HK saws to be released as I need a lighter weight saw for processing hardwood. The new KSS60 has even more cutting capacity, but like all things Mafell much higher priced. The hand clearance is not something I would have even thought about had I just ordered online. I will need to check it out in the store first-hand.
let us know what you think when you try it out. if i was only using it for 10 - 20 cuts day no big deal. But if I'm going to be cutting all day or a good part of that day i know it would of rubbed my knuckles raw
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The HK saws can not cut a North American 2 x 4 on a 45 degree bevel on a rail. I confirmed that in person last weekend. That is what had previously been reported here and I can confirm that my information came directly from a Festool trainer who had already been asked that question several times before I talked to him.
Peter
Which makes for a problem in a Metric world also. A 42mm cut at 45 degrees is 3mm short on Aussie 90/140mm X 45mm framing/bearing/rafter timber.
The Australian website does not specify with or without rail. I note that these angled specifications are the same as for the TS55R. In aiming to be light weight through a 160mm blade system, there is only so much that can be achieved. These saws are complimentary, not a replacement to a good on site mitre saw.
Still, in construction its increasingly a square world! [eek] [smile]
@Peter Halle
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I have tried a few 45 degree cuts on 2x material. My results are rather mixed. Sometimes I could get a clean looking cut on one side and sometimes not. Very minor differences in the thickness of the board may be critical in the result. I never got a clean cut on both sides of the cut. I also had a couple of times where the saw seemed to jam during the cut of a 2x8 . I suppose that practice will decrease any jamming.
I just did a couple of more cuts. I found that putting 2 boards side by side made the whole experience much more stable. Again, more practice would be helpful in getting the rather unwieldy rig to sit properly on a 2x4. I will post a couple of examples of the results on a piece of width trimmed 2x8. This board was not dead flat, but perhaps that is a more real world test.
I saw a response that putting a 162 mm blade on the HKC is not feasible. Is that because of a technical issue or because Festool made a deal with Mafell not to use 162 mm blades?
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If it can't consistently cut a 2x beveled 45 degrees it's a failure in my book.
And it's funny in every video demoing the saw they demo a compound miter cut but only set the bevel to about 30 degrees. carefully not promoting it won't cut all the way through at 45 degrees. One guy says let's just pick any angle not saying what angle it was.
One other guy even says a compound miter for a valley rafter and sets it to about 30 degrees which shows me he knows nothing about valley rafters if he isn't Cutting a 45 degree bevel which is required for most hip, valley and jack rafters.
If it wasn't promoted and demonstrated so much on 2x material as I've seen I wouldn't be as critical. Another great trim saw from festool. But as a framing saw it's limited.
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I should clarify what I wrote. On the rail the HKC will not cut cleanly thru a 2 x so that piece remaining under the rail does not have a lip on it. The off cut piece is cut all the way thru.
Peter
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I should clarify what I wrote. On the rail the HKC will not cut cleanly thru a 2 x so that piece remaining under the rail does not have a lip on it. The off cut piece is cut all the way thru.
Peter
So it cuts deep enough that it breaks of the last remaining millimeter
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If it can't consistently cut a 2x beveled 45 degrees it's a failure in my book.
And it's funny in every video demoing the saw they demo a compound miter cut but only set the bevel to about 30 degrees. carefully not promoting it won't cut all the way through at 45 degrees. One guy says let's just pick any angle not saying what angle it was.
One other guy even says a compound miter for a valley rafter and sets it to about 30 degrees which shows me he knows nothing about valley rafters if he isn't Cutting a 45 degree bevel which is required for most hip, valley and jack rafters.
If it wasn't promoted and demonstrated so much on 2x material as I've seen I wouldn't be as critical. Another great trim saw from festool. But as a framing saw it's limited.
I agree, it should cut a 2x on a 45 degree bevel. In my option its a major fail. I had originally had a HK on preorder until I got to play with the saw and tried to cut a 45 bevel on a 2x6 and it couldn't cut all the way through. I actually brought my own 2x6 to the demo to see what it could do. I really like Festool tools and feel like they are well engineered tools. Not sure why the saw was brought to the US as it is in Europe and was not changed or modified to be able to cut a common cut. This in my option will limit sales of the saw. I was very excited and it would bring a new group of people into the Festool world, but a person that does framing will pass on this saw for its lack of depth.
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It was deceitfully demonstrated in my opinion showing what it can do but not what it could not do. You may say well who will point out everything a tool cannot do? Do not demo the saw on framing material used everyday in common framing work if it cannot handle the tasks of processing that material as commonly needed. The people demonstrating it in North America in the videos I've seen were very careful to avoid letting it be known that a compound miter at a 45 degree bevel was not achievable . Not truthful advertising and very biased reviews I've seen.
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It was deceitfully demonstrated in my opinion showing what it can do but not what it could not do. You may say well who will point out everything a tool cannot do? Do not demo the saw on framing material used everyday in common framing work if it cannot handle the tasks of processing that material as commonly needed. The people demonstrating it in North America in the videos I've seen were very careful to avoid letting it be known that a compound miter at a 45 degree bevel was not achievable . Not truthful advertising and very biased reviews I've seen.
The nice thing about Festool is the 30 day money back guarantee. You can return your saw and get your money back with no questions asked. I feel this is going to be a common practice with this saw. I'm personally saving my money and get the Mafell KSS400 from Toolnut.
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I should clarify what I wrote. On the rail the HKC will not cut cleanly thru a 2 x so that piece remaining under the rail does not have a lip on it. The off cut piece is cut all the way thru.
Peter
It will cut through dry small 2x4s at 45* on the guide rail but when the stock is green (thicker than 1.5") and/or wide and cupped (not perfectly flat) then the blade might not reach the far side. Since the rail can rock on a high spot (bad for miters) it might cut trough a cupped board from the convex side. But if you cut a cupped board from the concave side (the guide rail spans the valley) the blade might not reach all the way.
A 45* miter on anything wider than a 2x4 gets iffy it seems.
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It was deceitfully demonstrated in my opinion showing what it can do but not what it could not do. You may say well who will point out everything a tool cannot do? Do not demo the saw on framing material used everyday in common framing work if it cannot handle the tasks of processing that material as commonly needed. The people demonstrating it in North America in the videos I've seen were very careful to avoid letting it be known that a compound miter at a 45 degree bevel was not achievable . Not truthful advertising and very biased reviews I've seen.
The nice thing about Festool is the 30 day money back guarantee. You can return your saw and get your money back with no questions asked. I feel this is going to be a common practice with this saw. I'm personally saving my money and get the Mafell KSS400 from Toolnut.
I agree. Just feel this tool was deceitfully marketed toward use with framing lumber and the reviews were very poor by not demonstrating it's simple limitations.
Going with Mafall on this one too.
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I should clarify what I wrote. On the rail the HKC will not cut cleanly thru a 2 x so that piece remaining under the rail does not have a lip on it. The off cut piece is cut all the way thru.
Peter
165 mm blades with 20 mm bore are common. Will that solve the problem? I know Festool will not like it, but there seem to be enough clearance between 160 mm blade and riving knife on HKC. That will throw off your depth scale of course.
Festool could even do some minor modifications to use slightly larger blade for NA market. Does not look like major redesign.
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So to conclude the hkc55 and the mafell Kss400 have the same cutting capacities?
On my Mafell catalogue it states the Kss400 cordless has a cutting depth of 49.5mm (90 degrees) with the track and 40mm @ 45 degrees with the track.
And on the Festool UK website it states the HKC55 cutting 55mm @90 degrees and 42mm @ 45 degrees.
Though not sure if that's with or without the rail.
Can anyone confirm if the HKC 55 has the same handle clearance as the TS 55?
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If it can't consistently cut a 2x beveled 45 degrees it's a failure in my book.
And it's funny in every video demoing the saw they demo a compound miter cut but only set the bevel to about 30 degrees. carefully not promoting it won't cut all the way through at 45 degrees. One guy says let's just pick any angle not saying what angle it was.
One other guy even says a compound miter for a valley rafter and sets it to about 30 degrees which shows me he knows nothing about valley rafters if he isn't Cutting a 45 degree bevel which is required for most hip, valley and jack rafters.
If it wasn't promoted and demonstrated so much on 2x material as I've seen I wouldn't be as critical. Another great trim saw from festool. But as a framing saw it's limited.
I agree, it should cut a 2x on a 45 degree bevel. In my option its a major fail. I had originally had a HK on preorder until I got to play with the saw and tried to cut a 45 bevel on a 2x6 and it couldn't cut all the way through. I actually brought my own 2x6 to the demo to see what it could do. I really like Festool tools and feel like they are well engineered tools. Not sure why the saw was brought to the US as it is in Europe and was not changed or modified to be able to cut a common cut. This in my option will limit sales of the saw. I was very excited and it would bring a new group of people into the Festool world, but a person that does framing will pass on this saw for its lack of depth.
Will the mafail kss400 cordless cut 2x on a 45 degree bevel angle?
It tells you in the festool manual the HKC 55 cuts 40mm @45 degrees.
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The HK saws can not cut a North American 2 x 4 on a 45 degree bevel on a rail. I confirmed that in person last weekend. That is what had previously been reported here and I can confirm that my information came directly from a Festool trainer who had already been asked that question several times before I talked to him.
Peter
It tells you on the specs on the UK website the capacity is 40mm @45 degrees.
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mafell handle sits higher up too. sits a touch more above the blade housing. yes cutting depth looks to be the same.
Aaah the same. That's what I said.
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The clearance between the handle and the guard on my ts55 is 50mm.
Is the HKC 55 less that that?
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mafell handle sits higher up too. sits a touch more above the blade housing. yes cutting depth looks to be the same.
I have fairly larger hands and I don't have any trouble with the KSS 400. I'm not sure if the handle sits up any higher, but there is a step in the blade housing to give more room for your hand.
(Attachment Link)
The KSS 400 has slightly more cutting depth on a 45 degree bevel. It can cut all the way through a 2x4 on a 45, the Festool HK saws can't.
good info right here. not only does the festool not have the step in the blade housing for more room, but it is the lever that unlocks the plunge feature that steps out from the blade housing that rubs on your knuckles. maybe thats why the russians in the video on the first page are wearing gloves.
I'm not sure but i believe the hk55 can cut a 2x4 beveled at 45 but could be wrong. if it can't then it is even more useless then i thought for me.
Ah OK. So that distance is less than 50mm?
If the mafell doesn't do what you want then surely its useless also?
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Lbob, read reply #96.
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I used my HKC over the weekend to extend my daughters deck. Unfortunatedly I had not drank enough bourbon when I placed the order. I ordered the HKC plus with out the short rail, figuring that the 420 and 670 rails would be the most usedful for me. I also ordered the bags for each rail and a couple extra blades. I got the saw Wednesday but no rails turns out the 670 rails were not shipping yet and I had forgot to add the 420 to my order [huh]. The saw worked perfectly for me dispite having to use my 12" speed square for cutoffs. I wear a large glove size and had no issues with knuckle busting, maybe I just hold the saw differently. I recieved my 420 rail this morning and love the combo. I probably won't be using the 45 % much as I don't frame roofs, that being said the fact that the rail lets you make angled cuts with the rail leads me to think that having a sharp chisel in my toolbelt to knock off the tiny lip will still be quicker than having to line any other saw (excepting the pricey Mafells of course) in order to make the horizontal angle. Also, my 55 side rail fits perfecty on the HKC, I did have to modify the rear clamp plate by grinding a little off each side to fit the slot in the saw base.
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mafell handle sits higher up too. sits a touch more above the blade housing. yes cutting depth looks to be the same.
I have fairly larger hands and I don't have any trouble with the KSS 400. I'm not sure if the handle sits up any higher, but there is a step in the blade housing to give more room for your hand.
(Attachment Link)
The KSS 400 has slightly more cutting depth on a 45 degree bevel. It can cut all the way through a 2x4 on a 45, the Festool HK saws can't.
good info right here. not only does the festool not have the step in the blade housing for more room, but it is the lever that unlocks the plunge feature that steps out from the blade housing that rubs on your knuckles. maybe thats why the russians in the video on the first page are wearing gloves.
I'm not sure but i believe the hk55 can cut a 2x4 beveled at 45 but could be wrong. if it can't then it is even more useless then i thought for me.
Ah OK. So that distance is less than 50mm?
If the mafell doesn't do what you want then surely its useless also?
Yes if the mafell cannot cut through a 2x at 45 degrees it is useless to me. I do not need another panel saw. The hk55 was marketed to cross cutting framing materials. Not as another panel saw.
They just made sure they didn't demonstrate that it couldn't.
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Lbob, read reply #96.
Thank you.
Brice says... It can cut all the way through a 2x4 on a 45.
Surely he's mistaken as the specs say only 40mm @45 degrees for the KSS400 with the track?
But I take on board the point he makes about hand space.
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mafell handle sits higher up too. sits a touch more above the blade housing. yes cutting depth looks to be the same.
I have fairly larger hands and I don't have any trouble with the KSS 400. I'm not sure if the handle sits up any higher, but there is a step in the blade housing to give more room for your hand.
(Attachment Link)
The KSS 400 has slightly more cutting depth on a 45 degree bevel. It can cut all the way through a 2x4 on a 45, the Festool HK saws can't.
good info right here. not only does the festool not have the step in the blade housing for more room, but it is the lever that unlocks the plunge feature that steps out from the blade housing that rubs on your knuckles. maybe thats why the russians in the video on the first page are wearing gloves.
I'm not sure but i believe the hk55 can cut a 2x4 beveled at 45 but could be wrong. if it can't then it is even more useless then i thought for me.
Ah OK. So that distance is less than 50mm?
If the mafell doesn't do what you want then surely its useless also?
Yes if the mafell cannot cut through a 2x at 45 degrees it is useless to me. I do not need another panel saw. The hk55 was marketed to cross cutting framing materials. Not as another panel saw.
They just made sure they didn't demonstrate that it couldn't.
Festool UK market the saw as a carpentry saw. No mention of "framing".
I guess its just down to location.
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Festool HKC55 (corded version) with 420mm FSK rail from axminster = £355 inc VAT.
Mafell KSS400 (corded version) with 450mm rail from screwfix = £700 inc VAT.
So I could have two HKC 55 machines for the price of the Mafell.
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mafell handle sits higher up too. sits a touch more above the blade housing. yes cutting depth looks to be the same.
I have fairly larger hands and I don't have any trouble with the KSS 400. I'm not sure if the handle sits up any higher, but there is a step in the blade housing to give more room for your hand.
(Attachment Link)
The KSS 400 has slightly more cutting depth on a 45 degree bevel. It can cut all the way through a 2x4 on a 45, the Festool HK saws can't.
good info right here. not only does the festool not have the step in the blade housing for more room, but it is the lever that unlocks the plunge feature that steps out from the blade housing that rubs on your knuckles. maybe thats why the russians in the video on the first page are wearing gloves.
I'm not sure but i believe the hk55 can cut a 2x4 beveled at 45 but could be wrong. if it can't then it is even more useless then i thought for me.
Ah OK. So that distance is less than 50mm?
If the mafell doesn't do what you want then surely its useless also?
Yes if the mafell cannot cut through a 2x at 45 degrees it is useless to me. I do not need another panel saw. The hk55 was marketed to cross cutting framing materials. Not as another panel saw.
They just made sure they didn't demonstrate that it couldn't.
Festool UK market the saw as a carpentry saw. No mention of "framing".
I guess its just down to location.
I don't care what the U.K. markets the saw for I am not there.
The video reviews and demonstrations I saw here were in North America and demonstrated on dimensional framing lumber.
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Two saws for the price of one. I care about that. [big grin]
Those north American salesmen will get a slap from their German counterparts.
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Thank you.
Brice says... It can cut all the way through a 2x4 on a 45.
Surely he's mistaken as the specs say only 40mm @45 degrees for the KSS400 with the track?
But I take on board the point he makes about hand space.
Here's a quick video of the KSS 400 making a compound angled cut, 45 degree bevel. It cuts all the way through this piece of 2x 6 pressure treated lumber that is a hair over 1 1/2" (about 39mm). Sorry there is no sound, but at the end of the video I inserted a still showing the cut.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuEqSnLOn2U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuEqSnLOn2U)
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Brice.
Why do you say 2" x 6" then say its a hair over 1 1/2" (about 39mm)
Its so confusing.
Surely its 1 1/2" x 6"?
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Brice.
Why do you say 2" x 4" then say its a hair over 1 1/2" (about 39mm)
Surely its 1 1/2" x 4"?
You may not have noticed but you're replying to guys who live in the US.
Here, "2x4" is the somewhat archaic reference to a standard stick of lumber that (in the olden days) was milled green to 2" x 4".
Today, what you get from the lumber yard is actually 1.5x3.5". If it is especially high in moisture content it may be a little bigger all around. (The mills do allow for drying and shrinkage)
So, when Brice says the KSS 400 will cut through a 2x4 at 45*, and Mafell says the capacity is 40mm@45*, they're both right.
40mm = 1-9/16", just enough to get the job done.
Buy as many HKCs as you want and be happy.
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So if you walk into a lumber yard in Pittsburgh and ask for a 2" x 6" plank, they hand you out a 1 1/2" x 6" plank?
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Brice, do you know if the TSC 55 is also a little shy of cutting 2x stuff at 45*.
Is suppose all the Festool 55 saws have the same capacity but I haven't tried that cut in so long (if ever, I'm not a framer) I just don't know...
I don't generally need that extra millimeter cut. For the occasions that I might, maybe someone will come up with an outboard (off the left side of the shoe) guide rail that will allow the saw to run directly on the stock. Hans?
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Its so confusing.
Surely its 1 1/2" x 6"?
Yes it can be... [eek]
Just to add to this confusion, a 2x6 is actually 1 1/2" x 5 1/2". While a 2x8 is actually 1 1/2" x 7 1/4".
And you thought it was just our imperial measurements that were goofy. [smile]
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So if you walk into a lumber yard in Pittsburgh and ask for a 2" x 6" plank, they hand you out a 1 1/2" x 6" plank?
Not on your life. It'll be 1 1/2' x 5 1/2"
Here is a chart. (http://www.howelumber.com/faq_dimensional_lumber.php)
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I use imperial and metric. Tapes are marked in both here.
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So if you walk into a lumber yard in Pittsburgh and ask for a 2" x 6" plank, they hand you out a 1 1/2" x 6" plank?
Not on your life. It'll be 1 1/2' x 5 1/2"
Here is a chart. (http://www.howelumber.com/faq_dimensional_lumber.php)
So 2"x lumber is 1 1/2" actual from that chart.
Now I'm wondering what Arvid is complaining about when both the HKC and the mafell will chop that @45 degrees.
But I'm guessing now you're gonna tell me that "framing" 2"x lumber is 2" actual.
Right?
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Lbob, you've got to focus on the details.
The Mafell gives specs for both on the rail and off the rail.
Festool only gives specs for off the rail but it doesn't tell you that's what they're for.
You have to try to find out on your own.
(or ask a Festool employee and even then you can't be sure of the answer...)
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" both the HKC and the mafell will chop that @45 degrees."
Depends on how you define chop. The HKC will leave a lip on one side of the cut. The Mafell will not.
As noted, some work with a chisel (or a handsaw) will clean up the cut. If you do not do a lot of 45 degree bevels, then a bit of chisel or handsaw work may be tolerable.
A test with a 162 or 165 mm blade on the HKC would be most informative, though it would void the warranty if something went wrong.
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162 might work but 165 will bring it very close to the splitter
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@Brice Burrell Thanks for the video dude.
A buddy emailed me about this thread and told me about the short comings of the HKC. I told him about Toolnut carrying the Mafell line. Seems like the way to go if you need to cut 2x lumber at a 45*.
I asked this question on the Festool Facebook page....but like this thread, they have not replied or acknowledged the 45* cut on the track. I was thinking this saw could or would speed up the deck I am planning on building. But I guess I'll stick with the old circular saw and miter saw.
Eric
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Brice, do you know if the TSC 55 is also a little shy of cutting 2x stuff at 45*.
Is suppose all the Festool 55 saws have the same capacity but I haven't tried that cut in so long (if ever, I'm not a framer) I just don't know...
I don't generally need that extra millimeter cut. For the occasions that I might, maybe someone will come up with an outboard (off the left side of the shoe) guide rail that will allow the saw to run directly on the stock. Hans?
The TS 55 will not cut cleanly threw 2x dimensional lumber. I tried it the other day when the HK issue was brought up.
It leaves the same nib as the HK.
Tom
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So if you walk into a lumber yard in Pittsburgh and ask for a 2" x 6" plank, they hand you out a 1 1/2" x 6" plank?
Not on your life. It'll be 1 1/2' x 5 1/2"
Here is a chart. (http://www.howelumber.com/faq_dimensional_lumber.php)
So 2"x lumber is 1 1/2" actual from that chart.
Now I'm wondering what Arvid is complaining about when both the HKC and the mafell will chop that @45 degrees.
But I'm guessing now you're gonna tell me that "framing" 2"x lumber is 2" actual.
Right?
Framing lumber in the US is nominal 2", in other words the actual finished dimension is 1-1/2" (assumes no swelling from moisture).
Tom
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Like Brice, I've been using a KSS-400 the last few years for framing as well as trim work on my job sites. Awesome saw, in addition to framing I've trimmed out whole basements (base board, shoe, door and window casing), I've even used it to fit some crown moulding in a pinch.
Yes, the KSS-400 will cleanly cut through 2x lumber on a 45 bevel, whereas the HK(C)-55 will not cleanly cut 2x lumber on a 45. I've performed this cut in my shop as a test, but in the last two or three years that I've been using this saw I can't remember a single time that I've needed to perform this cut on a job site.
What I HAVE wished for was the ability to bevel past 45 degrees, something the Mafell saw will not do without modification, whereas the HK(C)-55 bevels to 50 degrees. This is REALLY handy when cutting tall 1x8 and 1x10 baseboards at outside corners, where the bevel setting is frequently near 46 degrees or more. With the KSS-400 I'd pop a shim under the track and hope for the best, I like that I can dial in the HK saws.
If you want/need to cut 2x lumber at a 45 degree bevel with no additional work then you should be looking at the KSS-400, KSS-60, or even the KSS-80 which will cut 2x lumber at a 60 degree bevel. Expect to pay at least $1k+ for any of these saws.
If you'll mostly be crosscutting 2x lumber at anything less than 45 degrees and have already invested in the FS track ecosystem, I think the HK saws are a no-brainer.
Regarding the "knuckle buster" issue, I consider most sidewinder saws "knuckle busters", including such classics as the Makita 5007s and all of the DeWalts. I learned on worm drive saws, so anything else seems a little weird, but I've learned to adapt. Having used the KSS saws for several years now, I've learned how to handle them in a way that is both comfortable and safe, and I'm sure a couple days on the HK saws would yield a similar result.
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@Brice Burrell Thanks for the video dude.
A buddy emailed me about this thread and told me about the short comings of the HKC. I told him about Toolnut carrying the Mafell line. Seems like the way to go if you need to cut 2x lumber at a 45*.
I asked this question on the Festool Facebook page....but like this thread, they have not replied or acknowledged the 45* cut on the track. I was thinking this saw could or would speed up the deck I am planning on building. But I guess I'll stick with the old circular saw and miter saw.
Eric
Eric, As Tom already touched on, I wouldn't be so quick to write off the HK saws. Most people rarely need to make 45 degree bevel cuts in 2x material. The few times you'd need to you can use the HK saw off the rail or a miter saw. The exception would be guys that frame hip/valley roofs on a regular basis.
While I have no complaint with my Mafell saw I'm not super thrilled with the brand (here in N. America). The pricing is exorbitant, we only get a one year warranty (3 years in Europe), no UL or CSA listing, limited availability of accessories and so on. All of us here are already invested in Festool, rails, clamps and all that stuff. You can throw an HK saw on the rails you use for your TS55. If you want to do that with the KSS400, well you'll need to invest more money, a whole lot more. For example.
KSS400 (without any kind of case) $948
Systainer 4 $85
a couple of F160 guide rails $309.20
guide rail connector $78.80
guide rail clamps $62
Total $1483
Of course you don't need all of this stuff, but you'll probably want it, and you can see how fast it gets out of hand...
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For that price, I'll file off the nub.
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Brice and Tom, thanks for your remarkably concise, brass tacks review/comparisons of the two similar saws. Very helpful!
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The clearance between the handle and the guard on my ts55 is 50mm.
Is the HKC 55 less that that?
The hk55 has 37-38mm between the handle and plundge release lever that sticks off the side of the blade housing. A pitiful amount of clearance
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Despite my not probably not really ever needing to cut a vertical 45% 2X4, I tried it last night...didn't need a chisel, just ran my razor knife over the nub...much ado about not much! [smile]
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Despite my not probably not really ever needing to cut a vertical 45% 2X4, I tried it last night...didn't need a chisel, just ran my razor knife over the nub...much ado about not much! [smile]
Finishing a cut with a razor knife or knocking off the lip with a chisel will get old fast.
I guess everybody here builds square porches and decks and hardly ever need to cut multiple beams at 45.
Basically it comes down to festool being a trim tool for guys with small hands and mafell geared more toward framers and timber framers.
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Like two strokes of a block plane. We're talking framing here sheesh.
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Despite my not probably not really ever needing to cut a vertical 45% 2X4, I tried it last night...didn't need a chisel, just ran my razor knife over the nub...much ado about not much! [smile]
Do that 60 times on a hip roof. Waste of time.
That said, I will be getting the HK, just don't know which one yet.
Tom
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Who cuts 60 angled rafters up on the roof? It's not meant to replace a chopsaw. If your up on the roof cutting angled rafters, the time your spending keeping your saw on line is certainly more than the quarter second trimming that nub.
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It is funny reading this especially about all the different timber sizes I still walk into the builders merchant and ask for 100x50 and unless it is an old guy they look at me funny and tell me the only thing they have is 90x45. But the strange thing is when I try to buy some 50x50 I always ask for 2x2 and I am from NZ and we got rid of imperial back in 67.
But the best way to deal with the whole can it or can't do a beveled miter cut, is order trusses
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Who cuts 60 angled rafters up on the roof? It's not meant to replace a chopsaw. If your up on the roof cutting angled rafters, the time your spending keeping your saw on line is certainly more than the quarter second trimming that nub.
Anyone who cuts a roof. Each rafter can have up to 5 angle cuts. But thats not the issue, never said there was an issue with angled cuts.
Never cut a roof with less than 12 rafters (6 per side).
Beveled or compound cut---not angled
A simple hip roof will easily need 60 45º bevel cuts. Throw in a couple of valleys and let the fun begin.
Cut all the rafters on saw horses on the ground, then place them.
I don't use a chop/miter saw to cut a roof.
I don't think so...
Tom
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Who cuts 60 angled rafters up on the roof? It's not meant to replace a chopsaw. If your up on the roof cutting angled rafters, the time your spending keeping your saw on line is certainly more than the quarter second trimming that nub.
Anyone who cuts a roof. Each rafter can have up to 5 angle cuts. But thats not the issue, never said there was an issue with angled cuts.
Never cut a roof with less than 12 rafters (5 per side).
Beveled or compound cut---not angled
A simple hip roof will easily need 60 45º bevel cuts. Throw in a couple of valleys and let the fun begin.
Cut all the rafters on saw horses on the ground, then place them.
I don't use a chop/miter saw to cut a roof.
I don't think so...
Tom
What Tom said is accurate.
It's funny to hear guys chime in about cutting rafters who wouldn't know the first thing about cutting an entire house of rafters on a set of 16 foot long or longer saw horses. A simple small ranch house with a hip roof can easily have 60 jack rafters.
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Brice, do you know if the TSC 55 is also a little shy of cutting 2x stuff at 45*.
Is suppose all the Festool 55 saws have the same capacity but I haven't tried that cut in so long (if ever, I'm not a framer) I just don't know...
I don't generally need that extra millimeter cut. For the occasions that I might, maybe someone will come up with an outboard (off the left side of the shoe) guide rail that will allow the saw to run directly on the stock. Hans?
The TS 55 will not cut cleanly threw 2x dimensional lumber. I tried it the other day when the HK issue was brought up.
It leaves the same nib as the HK.
Tom
Don't you mean 1 /1/2" actual?
Surely it will cut through 1 1/2" @ 90 degrees.
Or do you mean it won't cut through 1 1/2" @45 degrees?
All very confusing this topic.
Mafell and festool are European.
So surely it would cause less confusion if the sizes referred to are "actual sizes?
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Brice, do you know if the TSC 55 is also a little shy of cutting 2x stuff at 45*.
Is suppose all the Festool 55 saws have the same capacity but I haven't tried that cut in so long (if ever, I'm not a framer) I just don't know...
I don't generally need that extra millimeter cut. For the occasions that I might, maybe someone will come up with an outboard (off the left side of the shoe) guide rail that will allow the saw to run directly on the stock. Hans?
The TS 55 will not cut cleanly threw 2x dimensional lumber. I tried it the other day when the HK issue was brought up.
It leaves the same nib as the HK.
Tom
Don't you mean 1 /1/2" actual?
Surely it will cut through 1 1/2" @ 90 degrees.
Or do you mean it won't cut through 1 1/2" @45 degrees?
All very confusing this topic.
Mafell and festool are European.
So surely it would cause less confusion if the sizes referred to are "actual sizes?
We call out lumber by its nominal size. A 2x4 is ordered will come as 1.5" x 3.5" unless it is ordered rough sawn.
Yes, I was referring to the HK not cleanly cutting through a 2x at 45º. Sorry for the confusion on the type of cut I was referencing.
I have no clue how to call out lumber by it's actual size (I know the sizes, my brain can't verbalize them or type them [eek]). Way to old to relearn [big grin]
To make it more confusing, 2x10 and larger lumber will be normally 3/4" small on the width instead of 1/2" small, thickness remains the same.
Tom
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It was mentioned that cutting a 45º bevel was not a common practice. Far more the 60 bevels in this one roof. Around here field cut hip roofs are common.
[attach=1]
One rafter of many, yes the rafter is over 22' long. The LVL hips and valleys are 1.75" (x2) thick x 14" tall, longest one is just under 27'.
[attach=2]
Front of the house "painted".
[attach=3]
The roof survived this-less 3 broken rafter tails. Due to not being able to get close enough to the building, a 40 ton capacity crane would not lift one of the trees. It took a 100 ton capacity crane to get the last one off the roof.
[attach=4][attach=5][attach=6]
Tom
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Brice, do you know if the TSC 55 is also a little shy of cutting 2x stuff at 45*.
Is suppose all the Festool 55 saws have the same capacity but I haven't tried that cut in so long (if ever, I'm not a framer) I just don't know...
I don't generally need that extra millimeter cut. For the occasions that I might, maybe someone will come up with an outboard (off the left side of the shoe) guide rail that will allow the saw to run directly on the stock. Hans?
The TS 55 will not cut cleanly threw 2x dimensional lumber. I tried it the other day when the HK issue was brought up.
It leaves the same nib as the HK.
Tom
Don't you mean 1 /1/2" actual?
Surely it will cut through 1 1/2" @ 90 degrees.
Or do you mean it won't cut through 1 1/2" @45 degrees?
All very confusing this topic.
Mafell and festool are European.
So surely it would cause less confusion if the sizes referred to are "actual sizes?
We call out lumber by its nominal size. A 2x4 is ordered will come as 1.5" x 3.5" unless it is ordered rough sawn.
Yes, I was referring to the HK not cleanly cutting through a 2x at 45º. Sorry for the confusion on the type of cut I was referencing.
I have no clue how to call out lumber by it's actual size (I know the sizes, my brain can't verbalize them or type them [eek]). Way to old to relearn [big grin]
To make it more confusing, 2x10 and larger lumber will be normally 3/4" small on the width instead of 1/2" small, thickness remains the same.
Tom
None the wiser.
My TS55 can cut through 38mm on the rail @45 degrees. Which is the exact same as the KSS 400.
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Despite my not probably not really ever needing to cut a vertical 45% 2X4, I tried it last night...didn't need a chisel, just ran my razor knife over the nub...much ado about not much! [smile]
Finishing a cut with a razor knife or knocking off the lip with a chisel will get old fast.
I guess everybody here builds square porches and decks and hardly ever need to cut multiple beams at 45.
Basically it comes down to festool being a trim tool for guys with small hands and mafell geared more toward framers and timber framers.
Or Festool for the skilled cabinet makers - kitchen installers and Mafell for the rough work. [big grin]
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Hilti have just launched the 21.6 volt SC 70W-A22 cordless circular saw.
It will chop 70mm @ 90 degrees and 51mm @ 45 degrees.
That means for you guys in America it will cut your dimensional 2 X lumber @45 degrees because its not really 2 inches thick at all. [big grin]
Its some other size which is well below the 51mm thick capacity of the SC 70W-A22 when set to 45 degrees. [wink] 8)
But Hilti don't seem to have cottoned on to these clever rail systems that mafell and festool are using.
Maybe that's the saw for you Arvid?
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None the wiser.
My TS55 can cut through 38mm on the rail @45 degrees. Which is the exact same as the KSS 400.
Dude, is there some medication you can take to improve your memory?
Read your own reply #123.
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Hilti have just launched the 21.6 volt SC 70W-A22 cordless circular saw.
It will chop 70mm @ 90 degrees and 51mm @ 45 degrees.
That means for you guys in America it will cut your dimensional 2 X lumber @45 degrees because its not really 2 inches thick at all. [big grin]
Its some other size below 51mm thick. [wink] 8)
But Hilti don't seem to have cottoned on to these clever rail systems that mafell and festool are using.
Maybe that's the saw for you Arvid?
Pay attention dude!
(https://www.hilti.co.uk/medias/sys_master/hde/h99/9153866039326/inp-sc70wa22-header.jpg)
The Hilti UK site. (https://www.hilti.co.uk/sc70w-a22)
Okay, if you mean Hilti's rail is a "dumb" rail compared to the "clever recoil" rails of Mafell and Festool, I'll give you that. I don't think Hilti has the recoil rail yet.
A big reason this thread has gone on so long, to the point of deserving Svar"s comment, is that there are at least 2 parameters for at least two different saws being discussed (or argued about) and too few replies bother to specify which point they are addressing.
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Here is the summary of this thread so far:
[dead horse] [dead horse] [dead horse]
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Here is the summary of this thread so far:
[dead horse] [dead horse] [dead horse]
[big grin]
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Its so confusing.
Surely its 1 1/2" x 6"?
Yes it can be... [eek]
Just to add to this confusion, a 2x6 is actually 1 1/2" x 5 1/2". While a 2x8 is actually 1 1/2" x 7 1/4".
And you thought it was just our imperial measurements that were goofy. [smile]
Hah, good one...... [embarassed] [embarassed] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]
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Here is the summary of this thread so far:
[dead horse] [dead horse] [dead horse]
feel free to move along then. many here are enjoying this discussion. if you don't like it you can ignore the thread.
We are not here for you. half the topics on here are beating a dead horse at some point to some people and others like to continue the discussion.
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None the wiser.
My TS55 can cut through 38mm on the rail @45 degrees. Which is the exact same as the KSS 400.
Dude, is there some medication you can take to improve your memory?
Read your own reply #123.
My memory is fine thanks. The 40mm spec was from my "NMA Agencies LTD" catalogue which has a mafell section. Which is clearly wrong.
The 38mm spec is from the mafell website.
http://katalog.mafell.de/index.php?IdTreeGroup=12962&IdProduct=30956
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Looking into the mafell ks60cc.
Maybe a ks400 as well. I'll review them in the other brand tools forum.
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I had a chance to use my new HKC 55 and the KSS 400 side by side today after work. I only spent maybe an hour making some rafters from 2x4 scraps and miscellaneous cuts . I'll need to spend more time with the tools to make a more comprehensive comparison that is fair to both saws.
Initial impressions of the HKC are positive. As I mentioned earlier in the thread I have fairly large hands and I didn't find the handle to be a knuckle buster. Also, battery life seemed pretty good. I made maybe 40-50 cuts in 2x4s (1 1/2"x3 1/2" or 38mmx89mm) and the battery gauge still had three of three bars.
When I get a chance to use the two together more I'll try to find some time to post my thoughts.
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I picked up a HK-55 today as well. I should have some time in the shop the next day or two, so I'll try to get some side-by-side pics and impressions of the HK-55 and the KSS-400.
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I picked up a HK-55 today as well. I should have some time in the shop the next day or two, so I'll try to get some side-by-side pics and impressions of the HK-55 and the KSS-400.
Looking forward to these reviews. Tell me what you think of the blade guard lever action.
I noticed the little spring and cable that raise the guard a little flimsy designed. Also noticed when raised half way or if raised slowly it did not always come back down in the closed position.
You can see how it works when you remove the blade.
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[attach=3]I used my HKC today to cut stair stringers for my daughters deck. Fantastic [big grin], I used the 420 rail set for one angle and the 670 for the other. I had it hooked to a 36mm hose and vac as I was on my back porch working. I had used two regular FS 800 rails with dogs under the rails for positioning for the last two sets of stairs I made...this was much quicker and switching between rails was a breeze.
[attach=1] [attach=2]
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I had a chance to use my new HKC 55 and the KSS 400 side by side today after work. I only spent maybe an hour making some rafters from 2x4 scraps and miscellaneous cuts . I'll need to spend more time with the tools to make a more comprehensive comparison that is fair to both saws.
Initial impressions of the HKC are positive. As I mentioned earlier in the thread I have fairly large hands and I didn't find the handle to be a knuckle buster. Also, battery life seemed pretty good. I made maybe 40-50 cuts in 2x4s (1 1/2"x3 1/2" or 38mmx89mm) and the battery gauge still had three of three bars.
When I get a chance to use the two together more I'll try to find some time to post my thoughts.
I know I could probably get used to it, but I don't like the small knob that releases the Detent Lock on the left side of the Rails. I would rather see a spring loaded lever that's easier to use,. esp. if you've got gloves on. Minor thing, but that threaded knob just seems a bit fussy to use. Let us know what you think about that Rail detail Brice...... [popcorn]
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I know I could probably get used to it, but I don't like the small knob that releases the Detent Lock on the left side of the Rails. I would rather see a spring loaded lever that's easier to use,. esp. if you've got gloves on. Minor thing, but that threaded knob just seems a bit fussy to use.
The threaded knob is kind of fussy to use, because you are moving the detented stop with one hand while snugging down the screw with the other hand. However, I think it's something that you'll get used to over time, besides, you'll probably not be constantly changing angles but if you need to, I'd use 2 different rails as rst suggested. Like using one drill but swapping out one chuck for drilling and a 2nd chuck for fasteners.
Also, you do have to tighten the threaded knob at every angle setting because even if it's in a detent (every 15°) the smallest force against the rail will move the stop. [tongue]
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I know I could probably get used to it, but I don't like the small knob that releases the Detent Lock on the left side of the Rails. I would rather see a spring loaded lever that's easier to use,. esp. if you've got gloves on. Minor thing, but that threaded knob just seems a bit fussy to use.
The threaded knob is kind of fussy to use, because you are moving the detented stop with one hand while snugging down the screw with the other hand. However, I think it's something that you'll get used to over time, besides, you'll probably not be constantly changing angles but if you need to, I'd use 2 different rails as rst suggested. Like using one drill but swapping out one chuck for drilling and a 2nd chuck for fasteners.
Also, you do have to tighten the threaded knob at every angle setting because even if it's in a detent (every 15°) the smallest force against the rail will move the stop. [tongue]
. Good thoughts, thanks @Cheese
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The cordless HKC 55 is perfect for framing, decking, flooring, roofing or other work when you don't want to worry about cords or plugs. It's the right tool when you need more time and less hassle. from Facebook today.
How is it that a "perfect" saw cannot make the cuts described ad nauseum in above comments? I would post a comment on Facebook but it would likely baffle most of my friends.
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There's no such thing as a perfect saw.
Festool is good. But so is mafell and hilti.
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looking forward to receiving my new HKC55 in the next couple of days...i'm an audio video installer, so the concerns about the compound-cut limitation on 2x doesn't bother me at all....i'll never have a need for that, but totally understand the concerns by some of the framers...to be honest, most of my needs will be for putting up blocking for TVs, light framing for exhaust fans, etc...probably overkill like a lot of other festool items, but the convenience and speed of the unit is appealing to me....and I'm already committed to the tool line-up and systainer system.
I have a TS55/MFT combo at home, but who wants to take that to a jobsite for the occasional rough cut?...i think the HKC55 should be fine for me. I'll have a chance to put it to use pretty soon for some under-floor subwoofer platforms we need to build for a current project.
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The cordless HKC 55 is perfect for framing, decking, flooring, roofing or other work when you don't want to worry about cords or plugs. It's the right tool when you need more time and less hassle. from Facebook today.
How is it that a "perfect" saw cannot make the cuts described ad nauseum in above comments? I would post a comment on Facebook but it would likely baffle most of my friends.
That facebook post and marketing is my rub. That and the gentleman in the video from festool connect demonstrating the saw was careful not to display it could not cut a 2x4 at 45 bevel while on the track. He very sneakingly said " let's just pick a bevel" and demonstrated a bevel cut not mentioning 30 degrees was as far as you could go. Even though he knew very well not to go beyond 30 degrees. So he did not just pick any bevel he picked that bevel deliberately
Not a fair demonstration and rather deceitful if you ask me.
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The cordless HKC 55 is perfect for framing, decking, flooring, roofing or other work when you don't want to worry about cords or plugs. It's the right tool when you need more time and less hassle. from Facebook today.
How is it that a "perfect" saw cannot make the cuts described ad nauseum in above comments? I would post a comment on Facebook but it would likely baffle most of my friends.
That facebook post and marketing is my rub. That and the gentleman in the video from festool connect demonstrating the saw was careful not to display it could not cut a 2x4 at 45 bevel while on the track. He very sneakingly said " let's just pick a bevel" and demonstrated a bevel cut not mentioning 30 degrees was as far as you could go. Even though he knew very well not to go beyond 30 degrees. So he did not just pick any bevel he picked that bevel deliberately
Not a fair demonstration and rather deceitful if you ask me.
I glad I'm not the only person that feels this way. It was a major fail having a "construction" saw that cannot cut a 45 bevel in a 2x4.
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Yes; a major fail indeed with the limited cut depth. I'd also be concerned about the 1200w motor when using the saw for rips in framing lumber. I'm not a Festool hater, I have a pile of their tools and generally find them to be very good, but I'm not so sure about this one. I'm looking at the Mafell KSS60; it is bigger, heavier and more expensive, but it also looks like it would be a much more capable saw for framing.
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I glad I'm not the only person that feels this way. It was a major fail having a "construction" saw that cannot cut a 45 bevel in a 2x4.
I feel the 45 degree bevel issue is not going to be a problem for many users. All the same, this is a serious blunder by Festool. I really think they should be looking for a solution ASAP. Looking at the saw it seems like the easiest solution for Festool is enlarge the blade guard slightly and offer a 165mm blade as an option. Festool, I do hope you are listening.
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If I'm spending over $400 on a saw.....the S.O.B better cut all the way through a 2x4 on a 45 no matter the moister content or if the dang board has a cup or crown........
If I have a $30 Skil saw that can cut through a 2x4 at a 45* with a cheap speed square, what would make me want to buy the HKC ??
Sure, I'm a hobbyist and I don't make a lot of cuts through a 2x lumber on a 45*. But if the saw has a 45* marking.....I expect the saw to make the cuts. I don't expect to FINISH the cut with my fingers or clean it up with a file or a hand plane. Defeats the purpose of making the dang cut to begin with.
I could go on about this saw......but I'll keep my comments to myself.
Eric
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Yes; a major fail indeed with the limited cut depth. I'd also be concerned about the 1200w motor when using the saw for rips in framing lumber. I'm not a Festool hater, I have a pile of their tools and generally find them to be very good, but I'm not so sure about this one. I'm looking at the Mafell KSS60; it is bigger, heavier and more expensive, but it also looks like it would be a much more capable saw for framing.
I agree this should be marketed as a light duty carpentry saw. Not demonstrated cutting did mention all framing lumber. It's misleading
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Yes; a major fail indeed with the limited cut depth. I'd also be concerned about the 1200w motor when using the saw for rips in framing lumber. I'm not a Festool hater, I have a pile of their tools and generally find them to be very good, but I'm not so sure about this one. I'm looking at the Mafell KSS60; it is bigger, heavier and more expensive, but it also looks like it would be a much more capable saw for framing.
I agree this should be marketed as a light duty carpentry saw. Not demonstrated cutting did mention all framing lumber. It's misleading
I have the HKC, it is more of lighter duty saw, like most other cordless saws. On the plus side I would say it is a pretty capable saw for only being an 18V tool. By cordless saw standards I would the HKC is a more of a medium duty saw.
I can't comment much from first hand experience on the corded HK saw, although I do have the KSS400. Still, I'd like to bring up a few points. The HK/HKC, and the other cross cuts saws are able to cut much more efficiently because they are on a rail. Running a circular saw freehand there is, relatively speaking, a lot more binding of the blade, and you'll need more power to over come that binding. With my KSS400 (with 1100 watt motor), with angled or beveled cuts on 2x10 or 2x12 material you hear the saw working harder. However, I've never felt like I was overworking the saw. Also, your typical sidewinder will moan while beveling a 2x12. One last point that we need to keep in mind, Festool has the HK85 for heavy duty cutting, so they have accounted for that market (in Europe at least).
I guess my opinion is the 160mm blade crosscut saws aren't light duty from my experience, and probably not heavy duty either. They fall in the middle, right where most people's needs are.
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Yes; a major fail indeed with the limited cut depth. I'd also be concerned about the 1200w motor when using the saw for rips in framing lumber. I'm not a Festool hater, I have a pile of their tools and generally find them to be very good, but I'm not so sure about this one. I'm looking at the Mafell KSS60; it is bigger, heavier and more expensive, but it also looks like it would be a much more capable saw for framing.
I agree this should be marketed as a light duty carpentry saw. Not demonstrated cutting did mention all framing lumber. It's misleading
I have the HKC, it is more of lighter duty saw, like most other cordless saws. On the plus side I would say it is a pretty capable saw for only being an 18V tool. By cordless saw standards I would the HKC is a more of a medium duty saw.
I can't comment much from first hand experience on the corded HK saw, although I do have the KSS400. Still, I'd like to bring up a few points. The HK/HKC, and the other cross cuts saws are able to cut much more efficiently because they are on a rail. Running a circular saw freehand there is, relatively speaking, a lot more binding of the blade, and you'll need more power to over come that binding. With my KSS400 (with 1100 watt motor), with angled or beveled cuts on 2x10 or 2x12 material you hear the saw working harder. However, I've never felt like I was overworking the saw. Also, your typical sidewinder will moan while beveling a 2x12. One last point that we need to keep in mind, Festool has the HK85 for heavy duty cutting, so they have accounted for that market (in Europe at least).
I guess my opinion is the 160mm blade crosscut saws aren't light duty from my experience, and probably not heavy duty either. They fall in the middle, right where most people's needs are.
The hk85 does seem like a fine saw but is overkill for most jobs with a blade that is 230mm.
To use that here is the states for 2x lumber would be a waste. They need an hk that is closer to mafell a kss60 if they are going to market it as a carpentry saw and not a glorified trim saw/ siding saw
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I used my HKC for building a deck and stairs for my daughter. All the wood was wet pressure treated. At no time did the saw bog down, including cutting the 2x12 for the steps and joists. I have not used it to rip treated yet, my 12 tooth blade should arrive today. Anyone want a Milwaukee 18v wood saw? Keeping the steel cutting one however.
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Yes; a major fail indeed with the limited cut depth. I'd also be concerned about the 1200w motor when using the saw for rips in framing lumber. I'm not a Festool hater, I have a pile of their tools and generally find them to be very good, but I'm not so sure about this one. I'm looking at the Mafell KSS60; it is bigger, heavier and more expensive, but it also looks like it would be a much more capable saw for framing.
I agree this should be marketed as a light duty carpentry saw. Not demonstrated cutting did mention all framing lumber. It's misleading
I have the HKC, it is more of lighter duty saw, like most other cordless saws. On the plus side I would say it is a pretty capable saw for only being an 18V tool. By cordless saw standards I would the HKC is a more of a medium duty saw.
I can't comment much from first hand experience on the corded HK saw, although I do have the KSS400. Still, I'd like to bring up a few points. The HK/HKC, and the other cross cuts saws are able to cut much more efficiently because they are on a rail. Running a circular saw freehand there is, relatively speaking, a lot more binding of the blade, and you'll need more power to over come that binding. With my KSS400 (with 1100 watt motor), with angled or beveled cuts on 2x10 or 2x12 material you hear the saw working harder. However, I've never felt like I was overworking the saw. Also, your typical sidewinder will moan while beveling a 2x12. One last point that we need to keep in mind, Festool has the HK85 for heavy duty cutting, so they have accounted for that market (in Europe at least).
I guess my opinion is the 160mm blade crosscut saws aren't light duty from my experience, and probably not heavy duty either. They fall in the middle, right where most people's needs are.
The hk85 does seem like a fine saw but is overkill for most jobs with a blade that is 230mm.
To use that here is the states for 2x lumber would be a waste. They need an hk that is closer to mafell a kss60 if they are going to market it as a carpentry saw and not a glorified trim saw/ siding saw
You could stack two on top of each other which in theory would give you a 4x.
As the 2x lumber in the states is only 1 1/2" thick, two stacked together makes 3", therefore the hkc85 will chop
the two in one go with ease.
My big Makita 5103R has a 100mm depth of cut capability and was cutting several t&g boards together in one go the other day.
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In regards to my thought that the 1200w motor is on the light side is based on my use of the TS55 (on a Festool track) to trim the ends of pressure treated decking after its fastened in place. I used to use the TS55 for that but it had a difficult time with it, it would heart up and shut down. It's good that it shut down instead of destroying itself, and I realize that the TS55 was not intended for framing lumber, but the fact that the HK has the same 1200w motor discourages me from buying the HK. I continue to use the TS55 for sheet goods and it works just fine.
I ended up with the Mafell KSS400 and the KSS80. The 400 is a nice saw and very similar to the HK, I do wish for a bit more power and cutting depth. The KSS80 is a fantastic saw, but heavier and bulkier than necessary for typical 2x framing requirements. The KSS60 sounds like the perfect do almost everything saw.
The point in sharing all of this is to caution potential purchasers that the HK may be a little disappointing as a framing saw, depending on your needs.
j
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Jason,
I have to agree with you on this.
Mafell have the extra model (60) to cover most of the bases for framing, not to heavy for frequent
use, but powerful enough to handle 2X stock.
(2X stock in Ireland/UK is 44mm - 1 3/4" so the HK55 or KSS400 won't cut it at 45 degrees)
I am trying to go cordless as much as possible, so an HK70 with 2 batteries, like the TSC55R, would be a great addition to the line.
I will get the HKC55 to do most of the 1st fix work, TSC55R to replace my TS55 (to be fitted into CMS)
A Kapex will handle the larger stock for joists and rafters, I always cut them on the ground level first.
Alan
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kss60cc being delivered tomorrow. I will let you all know what i think of it. I will review it in the review other tools section.
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kss60cc being delivered tomorrow. I will let you all know what i think of it. I will review it in the review other tools section.
I look forward to your review.
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I went on to axminster to order the Festool HK 85 with the FSK rail but they are out of stock. I'd like the machine in 110v.
They must be selling like hot cakes.
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The 85 doesn't come in 110v I believe. I have the hkc55 and the hk55 110v. The hkc just struggles so much it annoyed me into buying the 110v and I love the hk55 it's just so much better! A sharp blade really helps. As soon as the blade gets dull you really need to change it
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kss60cc being delivered tomorrow. I will let you all know what i think of it. I will review it in the review other tools section.
I look forward to your review.
I agree, looks like an interesting saw, Mafell also offers clamps to work with the rail/your workpiece. [tongue]
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OK. 240v will be fine. I think the 240v machines have more power anyway.
An on site rcd should leave it safe. Though mostly the saw will be used in the workshop where we make big trusses.
There was a lad the other day using a hitachi router with a frayed lead and he took the full blast of the 240v when he grabbed it.
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Just took delivery of the HK 85 EB and FSK 420 today. [smile]
Plus 2 spare blades.
Will be putting it through its paces tomorrow cutting large 11" x 3" to make trusses.
First impressions certainly doesn't disappoint after cutting some pine.
Very smooth on the rail and accurate. Tested a 45 degree cut with a digital angle degree finder and it was 100% accurate at 45 degrees.
Its like having a SCMS at your finger tips. Very impressive piece of engineering. A game changer in fact!
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OK. 240v will be fine. I think the 240v machines have more power anyway.
An on site rcd should leave it safe. Though mostly the saw will be used in the workshop where we make big trusses.
There was a lad the other day using a hitachi router with a frayed lead and he took the full blast of the 240v when he grabbed it.
It is a requirement in Australia to have all corded tools used on construction sites to be checked quarterly and tagged for electrical safety. It is also a requirement that if at any time there is any damaged cable, that tool be removed from site and repaired and re-tagged. We also have to connect all power tools through an RCD just in case someone cuts a cord. If you have quite a few tools (guilty as charged) it can be an expensive process to keep your tools compliant. That being said, there is no cost that is not worth paying if at the end of the day everyone leaves site alive. I have a license to test and tag tools, so other than time and labels, there is little cost to me.
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Very happy with the HK 85. [smile]
Doing full depth cuts through stacks of plywood and various angle cuts on 3" x 3" and 6" x 3" and the machine proved itself a work horse. I found it very fast to change between straight and angle cuts. The scale very well laid out.
The scms operator was made redundant today. [big grin]
Though he wasn't complaining as it was quite a traisp back and forward. Says he is interested in buying the hk 85.
Other guys on the floor I noticed were gazing in wonderment at what I was using. No time for personal demos though as we were under the gun to get 16 big trusses out.
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I took my plunge today with an HK 55 + the FSK.
We have various projects going, one of them being cutting fitting some window trim for a couple of newly replaced windows.
Just for the heck of it I set up on the vac with my sys MFT holding the work in the corner of the kitchen to test the dust collection.
I was amazed that there were just a few flakes of sawdust directly below where I was cutting on the front of the vac.
The cuts were beautifully smooth, but I managed to do one cut off square, which I chalk up to learning.
My only negatives are that the FSK 420 seems a little ungainly for cutting 4 inch wide stock, and the angle stops are thicker than 1 inch (3/4) stock. Elevating the workpieces on some scrap resolved that, and I expect I'll get used to working with the FSK.
Overall, I'm very pleased.
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I took my plunge today with an HK 55 + the FSK.
We have various projects going, one of them being cutting fitting some window trim for a couple of newly replaced windows.
Just for the heck of it I set up on the vac with my sys MFT holding the work in the corner of the kitchen to test the dust collection.
I was amazed that there were just a few flakes of sawdust directly below where I was cutting on the front of the vac.
The cuts were beautifully smooth, but I managed to do one cut off square, which I chalk up to learning.
My only negatives are that the FSK 420 seems a little ungainly for cutting 4 inch wide stock, and the angle stops are thicker than 1 inch (3/4) stock. Elevating the workpieces on some scrap resolved that, and I expect I'll get used to working with the FSK.
Overall, I'm very pleased.
Thank you for this review. This helps in my decision.
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I took my plunge today with an HK 55 + the FSK.
My only negatives are that the FSK 420 seems a little ungainly for cutting 4 inch wide stock, and the angle stops are thicker than 1 inch (3/4) stock. Elevating the workpieces on some scrap resolved that, and I expect I'll get used to working with the FSK.
Overall, I'm very pleased.
I wish they offered the tool with other rail options, still deciding on which saw? Cordless or not, but I know I will need the FSK 250 to start.
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I wish they offered the tool with other rail options, still deciding on which saw? Cordless or not, but I know I will need the FSK 250 to start.
Agreed, I think a discount on (any) track purchased with the saw along the lines of the discounts offered for the vacs and MFT's would be a better arrangement. I probably would have chosen an FSK 250 had it been cost-effective. I expect that most of my use will be for either work a lot smaller than the 420's capacity or else much larger using an FS rail.
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I'm still in awe of the hk 85.
Single handed use is so easy. Just glides across the cut.
And plenty of room for big fat fingers. [big grin]
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Would buy the HK 85 in a heartbeat!
Festool is so slow..... [mad]
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I've had the opportunity to use the HK-55 for the last 10 days or so (the HK belongs to a contractor I work with from time to time).
Below is my opinion of the saw, take it as that, just one mans opinion...
As a framing saw, the HK is limited. Cutting a bevel in 2x material the saw struggles badly. I'm not talking 45º bevels for jack rafters, any bevel more than 15º it does not do well in framing material. Angle and square cuts are slower than with my worm drive saw.
As what I've heard referred to as a "second fix", the HK-55 does very well----as long as the material is 1" or thinner. Bevels through 1x and 5/4 cedar the HK 55 works very well. Miters are very accurate, for exterior trim work, this could be the only saw you may need.
I wish the HK-85 was available here, I have a feeling it would be a very good framing saw.
Tom
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As a framing saw, the HK is limited. Cutting a bevel in 2x material the saw struggles badly. I'm not talking 45º bevels for jack rafters, any bevel more than 15º it does not do well in framing material. Angle and square cuts are slower than with my worm drive saw.
That blows [eek]
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The red brand offers the 80 or 85 capacity and it works very well.
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Got mine today from FFX, only ordered 2 days ago as my French supplier could not deliver until August. Won't have a chance to try until Tuesday... feels good quality though.
Bet they didn't send a receipt with it. Pack of numpties.
Yeah I could fart on and register with them so I have downloadable receipts but all their competitors just put a proper receipt in the box and I don't have to fart on printing one off to show my accountant. Just pull it out the box and bung it in my file.
The saw is nice though.
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Looking for opinions. Will the HKC 55 EB handle doors and finish sheet goods?
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Looking for opinions. Will the HKC 55 EB handle doors and finish sheet goods?
Yes, but on thicker stock you need to feed slow and it can bog. I find the corded HK to be a much more capable saw. With the fine-tooth blade both perform well on sheet goods. DC is not as good as the TS saws, but still pretty good for a circular saw. I really like them both.
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Thanks for the reply. I have a TS75 for the heavy stuff. Just been thinking about going to the cordless for framing and punch out work. Would be much faster for trimming off a door or two.
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Thanks for the reply. I have a TS75 for the heavy stuff. Just been thinking about going to the cordless for framing and punch out work. Would be much faster for trimming off a door or two.
I use the cordless for framing work, it has been excellent. Since I had to do a lot of rip cuts on the recent project I added the corded and I am very glad I did.
That TS75 you have is a very capable saw (owned one many years back). For trimming off a door or two the cordless is "ok" but the corded is clearly better. I run the cordless with the dustbag and the corded hooked up to a vac and I am happy with the workflow with them both, leaves me with the right blade on each saw for most tasks. Also, the corded is much more forgiving with a finer tooth blade for occasional ripping.
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Thanks for the reply. I have a TS75 for the heavy stuff. Just been thinking about going to the cordless for framing and punch out work. Would be much faster for trimming off a door or two.
I use the cordless for framing work, it has been excellent. Since I had to do a lot of rip cuts on the recent project I added the corded and I am very glad I did.
That TS75 you have is a very capable saw (owned one many years back). For trimming off a door or two the cordless is "ok" but the corded is clearly better. I run the cordless with the dustbag and the corded hooked up to a vac and I am happy with the workflow with them both, leaves me with the right blade on each saw for most tasks. Also, the corded is much more forgiving with a finer tooth blade for occasional ripping.
I do the same...having both gives lots of options.
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Quite a thread this- turns out Trend make a 165mm blade with a slightly thinner 1.6 kerf...
https://youtu.be/twvXDXvZENc
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TREND-165MM-48T-TCT-20MM-BORE-SAW-BLADE-DEWALT-MAKITA-BOSCH-CSB-16548B/392068539842?epid=6016720450&hash=item5b491b25c2:g:FUIAAOSw4CFYxqYP