Author Topic: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)  (Read 9529 times)

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Offline tino_ale

  • Posts: 11
My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« on: March 27, 2017, 06:25 PM »
Hi all,

So I got myself a KS 60 E-set to replace a Bosch GCM 800S (which had the same 216mm blade size).

Basic geometry
Is the bed flat ? No !
I proceeded to check the base flatness. On the right side, the round center base is 0.2mm high. On the left, it is 0.1mm. Clearly visible and a piece of wood that is slid will "catch" the step. 0.1mm is fine but 0.2mm disappoints me.
There does not seem to be any adjustment for this. It's juste the parts machining that is off.




Is the fence square ? Close.
The fence is dead square near the blade. But as I move away, a small gap develops between the top of the fence and the square. Measured a 0.05mm gap there. Not concerned about that one though.

Bevel angle adjustment and stops
The 90° Bevel stop was spot on. The bevel dials were not properly aligned. The screws had been tightened so hard they made their spot in the plastic, I could not make any adjustment whatsoever, they would just snap back into the exact same position. I fixed this with 4mm washers and could align the dials. Festool should improve this as it is a known issue.




The left and right 45° bevel stops are NOT correct. The saw falls beyond 45°. The dials (those that I just set perfect at 90°) and my first tests agree. Both stops are off. That is NOT good because there is no provision for adjusting those stops independently from the 90° angle stop. Basically it's just machined steps in the casting, if you make adjustment to the locating pin, all bevel settings move at once. Very disappointed to see this. Some freaking set screws to fine adjust would not have been hard to implement. WTH Festool ??

The bevel angle is not precisely adjusted like on a Kapex 120 with it's fine tuning system. You're going to push and pull the saw back and forth a few times before you get the bevel angle you want, plus, the bevel dials are not that clear to read.

Mitre angle and stops
The 90° mitre angle was not good. That one was actually quite simple to adjust. Just find the proper angle (trial and error) without using the detent system. Once the square is done and confirmed with the base locked, release, snap-in and retighten the locating spring loaded thingy. This is what makes the detent.
BTW the detent system repeats okay but not necessarily dead-on, one should keep an eye on the lines in the clear plastic window for good measure. Had to adjust this one too BTW, easy, one screw.



I have not yet checked other mitre angles stops. I *hope* they are good because just like the bevel angle, only one adjustment can be made for all angles.

Dust collection (DC)
Hooked up to a CT26 using a short 36mm hose.
When lowering down the saw into the wood (like a chop saw), DC is not impressive at all.  Plenty is thrown toward the left of the saw. When using the sliding action, I found DC to be excellent and was very pleased by it. Whenever possible, use the sliding action exclusively and I think you will be delighted by this DC.

One thing that bugs me is the DC port that is straight towards the wall if you're using your saw against a wall. Being the most compact is the one undeniable advantage of a front rail sliding saw, why ruin it with the freaking DC port ? Some space is definitely lost because of this. Big design overlook.

Noise
Much quieter than my old Bosch. By a significant margin. The Bosch really was a screaming beast. I still have to wear ears protections with the KS 60 though.
At low speed settings, the saw makes a rattling noise just like a TS55R. At full speed, that almost disappears (enough load on the gears).
It has a soft start also, which my old saw did not. What a change!

Cut
Cutting action as well as sliding action are both butter smooth. Not disappointed here. No vibration or play anywhere. The cuts are crisp and exhibit some blade scoring marks that I think are normal considering it is only a 36 teeth universal blade. Still glue ready and pretty darn flat.

Fit and finish
Excellent all around, nothing to complain about here.

Activation
The on button is pretty stiff, but I'll get used to it.

LED shadow thingy
You have to almost make contact with a tooth with the blade not turning to make a precise cut. No way around that. For now I think it is an inferior system compared to good (slim lines) perfectly calibrated lasers. But admittedly, the LED system is not adjustment sensitive and can be very precise. Not sure it'll work so well when doing precise beveled cuts though. I really have to use it more, but I'm not immediately sold on this.


So what now ?

Pretty disappointed about the lack of adjustment on the 45° bevel stops and the fact that they are out of calibration. Unless I have missed something, they are going to be useless to me.
Kinda disappointed with the bed flatness. 0.2 is enough for anyone looking to notice, so why not Festool Quality control ?
On the cutting action, fit and finish, soft start, DC during sliding action, noise level, I'm sold.
I'm hesitating big time to return it for the geometry issues that I've found, but will the second saw be any better ? I have my doubts. That's why I'm not decided yet.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 06:28 PM by tino_ale »

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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2017, 06:46 PM »
I now that Europe has a different time frame to return a tool than we do here, but honestly after reading your post I think that you should exchange it.  The other reviews we have seen here didn't have the issues you raised and based on your post I have come to guess that the issues will nag at you if you keep this saw.

Thank you for posting your observations of the saw you have.

Peter

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 359
Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2017, 08:33 PM »
Please don't look at my members project.  [eek]
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline ach_78

  • Posts: 60
Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2017, 09:59 AM »
Please don't look at my members project.  [eek]
What was that ?

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2745
Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2017, 06:54 PM »


Hi @tino_ale   ,

After applying a similar look over to my KS60, it would appear that the manufacturing tolerances were better than for yours on the day mine was made. The bottom line here is that you are not satisfied and Festool has a return policy. Whether your dealer will let you check your next one over prior to handing it across the counter is another question!  [smile]
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 07:34 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline tino_ale

  • Posts: 11
Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2017, 06:39 AM »
Thanks for the data point. All are not created equal obviously.

I have requested a return. Festool says they have no defined tolerance and that they do not garantee a replacement saw will be any better than this one. You're loosing points Festool.

Let see if Festool wants to loose more points and make me pay for the return shipping costs.

Offline tino_ale

  • Posts: 11
Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2017, 04:53 PM »
I took you advise and tried to return it.

Here the return policy is 15 days. I ordered the saw on 13th. It shipped on 23rd. Got is on 27th. Contacted the dealer on 28th.

That is outside the 15 days time frame so the online dealer I ordered it from denied the return. The starting date according to them is the "contract" date, so 13th, more than 15 days before I even got my hands on the too. Go figure. Either the dealer is BS-ing me or Festool has a return policy that is plain silly for any online purchase.

I'd be curious to hear directly from Festool about that.

I sent the pics, the dealer supposedly forwarded them to Festool and supposedly got this response :
- "there is no tolerance on this table alignment". Total BS : any machining process has tolerances. The fact that they may remain undisclosed is another story.
- "the gap looks normal" : there is no problem (probably, I am the problem)
- "Festool gives no guarantee a replacement would be any better".

That and some uneducated BS about 45° stops don't exist on this saw, supposedly freely tilting until 46 and 47°. I did not even bother educating the dealer rep about learning a thing of two about this saw.

Dealer "offered" a return under the law here (14 days from the receipt of the goods), which they could not legally deny anyway, leaving the return cost to me (about 35€). I said me retracting from my purchase and a manufacturing defect are two different things. They did not change their offer though. Festool return policy, if it was granted, does not include return shipping cost anyway.

Bottom line : Festool return policy did not work. Lesson learned, I will not take for granted I'm covered because Festool marketing says so.

Facing this idiocracy I fixed the saw myself. Tedious and long process but it is now absolutely spot on regarding the table flatness. 45° stops are off but I seldomly use them. At last, I'm a happy camper with my new saw but very dissatisfied with the return policy. Needless to say I won't buy from this dealer again (HM Diffusion).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 04:59 PM by tino_ale »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2205
Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2017, 05:31 PM »
Facing this idiocracy I fixed the saw myself. Tedious and long process but it is now absolutely spot on regarding the table flatness.
Would you like to share how you did this? Could be useful to others.

Offline tino_ale

  • Posts: 11
Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2017, 04:25 PM »
Hi,

The round base glides on 3 plastic runners, about 2mm thick. These can be sanded down if one is very carefull and methodical. You don't want to thin them past the point where the base is level, nor make the base rock. I spent maybe 2 hours sanding them bit  by bit, recheck and so on.

I now have a ray of light (I don't want the base lower) but a 0.04mm feeler gauge won't slide under. Also both sides are equally high and remain so at all mitre angles.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2745
Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2017, 06:51 PM »
And thus, I suspect by actually physically altering rather than calibrating the saw goes your warranty? Maybe?
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2205
Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2017, 01:57 AM »
Hi,

The round base glides on 3 plastic runners, about 2mm thick. These can be sanded down if one is very carefull and methodical. You don't want to thin them past the point where the base is level, nor make the base rock. I spent maybe 2 hours sanding them bit  by bit, recheck and so on.
Could you shave it with a plane instead of sanding? If there is enough room for a plane of course.

Offline tino_ale

  • Posts: 11
Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2017, 03:38 PM »
And thus, I suspect by actually physically altering rather than calibrating the saw goes your warranty? Maybe?
I am not sure if you fully grasp the irony of the situation here.

I have purchased what I believed to be a state of the art "precision" saw and receive a unit that did not meet my expectation for a 700€+ machine.

I was denied an exchange, and denied return shipping costs coverage (30€ left to me), because the defect was "normal".

Now that I, the customer, fixed the defect that Festool deemed "normal", I should be worried about the warranty ? Which warranty ? The one that did leave me with unsatisfactory options in the first place ? Please.

The plastic runners are replacable. What I did is fully reversible if say, I wanted my 0.2mm gap back. Not worried about that.

I guess the plastic runners could be planed, they are removable at will. Just pop the fence off and unscrew the round base central screw, lift the base and there they are staring at you. No rocket science there to say the least. But one should be meticulous shaving or sanding them down.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 03:40 PM by tino_ale »

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2745
Re: My KS 60 review (includes flat and maybe not so flat)
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2017, 04:06 PM »
@tino_ale

Sure did see the irony here. I thought that was reflected in my tone and the question marks. Obviously that was lost across the 'tyranny of distance'. Anyway I am glad the saw is now giving you a degree of satisfaction.
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values