Author Topic: festool cordless tools pointless?  (Read 9982 times)

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Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 663
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2021, 07:35 PM »
I have a Tsc-55 and a Hkc-55 and love them.
I am really thinking about getting a cordless sander also.
The cost is the only deterrent,at $600 usd for the whole kit.

 I have the cordless vecturo and a bunch of Makita cordless.

What I think they should have done,is make the sys-vac cordless,as was said earlier .

The only corded tools I have are a Kapex and air compressor ,
But I also have a Senco fusion 18g.
I would go all cordless if I can.
Charlie


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Offline Imemiter

  • Posts: 198
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2021, 10:47 PM »

I am finding the PDC18 to be excellent on pocket holes. I just leave the vac turned on so that it isn't cycling on / off every 10 - 20 seconds between holes.

Seth

Seth

I use a Makita 18v and The Button, but I've wondered. Does the PDC trigger a vacuum with the BT battery? I know my TID doesn't, not that I'd want it to.
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Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 425
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2021, 11:16 PM »
I have a Tsc-55 and a Hkc-55 and love them.
I am really thinking about getting a cordless sander also.
The cost is the only deterrent,at $600 usd for the whole kit.
 snip

The one advantage that the cordless sanders have going for them is that the large "set" kits include the battery-to-mains adapter that turns the sander into a corded unit if you're either working faster than the charger, forgot to charge, or just want a corded unit for the time being.

The "plus" are less expensive and still include batteries.  And then, of course, once you're into that battery system, you can get the bare tools. With the mains adapter set plus a second bare tool, you can have two sanders always ready to go and swap the mains adapter into the mix if you need to toss a battery into the charger (or keep one tool plugged in and the other swapping batteries, or...).

I wanted to get into the cordless sanders and kept my eyes on Recon, but all that came up was the Kits.  I patiently held out for the RTSC-400 Set just to get the mains adapter.  Took a while for a Set to show up instead of a Kit, but I had time on my side.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 11:25 AM by squall_line »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 494
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2021, 05:30 AM »

I am finding the PDC18 to be excellent on pocket holes. I just leave the vac turned on so that it isn't cycling on / off every 10 - 20 seconds between holes.

Seth

Seth

I use a Makita 18v and The Button, but I've wondered. Does the PDC trigger a vacuum with the BT battery? I know my TID doesn't, not that I'd want it to.
It does, but there is a "custom drill driver mode" used so the pairing works differently than with "normal" tools.

My DRC will activate the vac only if I put a battery in the DRC and, before using the drill, initiate a new pairing. After that the vac will be auto-started with the DRC.

Otherwise the DRC will ignore a pre-paired battery and will also not accept pairing if the drill was used prior to the pairing.

There is another special feature when using the paired DRC/PDC with a vac - the DCR will "keep telling" the battery it is "active" about 10 seconds after you stopped drilling. So the vac keeps running that time + the normal 5-second cool down period. This is meant so you have enough time for a drilling location cleanup if you were on a ladder etc. Works a treat!

Both of these aspects I needed to self-discover as first assumed "the battery is broken" when a paired pack did not want to start the vac when put in the DRC. Another of the fabulous things Festool did they utterly fail to market/explain.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 05:32 AM by mino »
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Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2051
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2021, 10:09 AM »
For sure, Seth is right . . .What a hobbyist or professional buys is based on his usage, experience, and needs. I've never been a professional, but am a woodworker who builds a variety of shop furniture, furniture for my house, cabinets when needed, turnings on my lathe, and sometimes just things which interest me. My whole shop grew up around corded tools, mostly because cordless tools weren't really available that much when I became a woodworker. So, my experience is with corded tools. Tools like a reciprocating saw (which I don't use much) and a drill/driver, cordless is easier to use and there are a lot of economical choices. With most everything else, I have ready power in my shop and really don't need the cordless tools. So, my purchases and usage are really based on my history, needs, and the fact I have power I might not have access to on the job. People buy and use whatever works for them.
Randy

Offline Imemiter

  • Posts: 198
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2021, 11:28 AM »
It does, but there is a "custom drill driver mode" used so the pairing works differently than with "normal" tools.

...

Thank you Mino! I'd searched around for an explanation. That extra 10 sec seems like a feature they'd want to shout from the rooftops. 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 08:09 AM by Imemiter »
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Offline PreferrablyWood

  • Posts: 968
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2021, 04:44 PM »
While I still don't have a functioning crystal ball, ;)  and maybe there will be a cordless Festool dust extractor in future, my personal opinion is that Festool was smarter to bring the SYS-Powerstation which can power both a dust extractor and tool for a whole working day. Or let you charge plenty of batteries on one charge.


I agree those "power stations" not just Festool are going to be big.  Having 1-2 of those you charge up at night verses remembering to pop 10-30 batteries all in their chargers when you get home for the night is a big change.  The battery powered tools are still going to be nice for the reasons folks mention.  But having one giant battery you can use for all your tools and not just Festool stuff will be a big shift.  Being able to run stuff that doesn't come in battery versions too.  So much other stuff you can use them for outside of tools too.

It's way to easy with cordless to forget to pop them in their chargers while your working and before you know if, you got 5 batteries, all are dead, or they have some juice but can't muster for a high power draw task.

I too have missed a heartbeat or two over the prospect of the powerstation. I take care of buildings stairwells and surrounding areas have very long runs to plugs so I lug lots of heavy cords around often. The powerstation price is now up on the sites here in Scandinavia and after getting over the first shock of price I'm already making scheme as to how a scrape together the funds for it. Also as an emergency power supply it could be a very hand thing to have...
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Offline Havwoods Accessories Ltd

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Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2021, 04:20 AM »
I suspect tool sales tell a far more accurate story of how many people use corded or cordless tools than this thread ever will.
There are people who simply seem unable to comprehend that other peoples tool usage is much different than their own.

Personally I'm a  site carpenter and as much as I can I use cordless tools. For me they're  more versatile and can still be used hooked upto an extractor as well as outside on a formwork job or up a scaffold without faffing about with cables.
Every one of my workmates is slowly changing over to more cordless tools as our tools need replacing and that genie won't be going back in the bottle.
De-Walt are now making a cordless class M extractor and although I have a Festool CTM25 Cleantec with all the bells and whistles it's not much use on a lot of sites because the access is bad or the power is intermittent at best.
That De-Walt cordless class M is looking like a better deal every day.
Interesting thread...as a dealer i can confirm cordless tools are have pretty much taken over their corded equivalents where there is an option.
I did chuckle about a corded drill  [wink]...not sure I've ever seen one in 20 years let alone sold one apart from SDS.
I suspect there may be some Country specific arguments to think of..in the UK we obviously have the 110V Site supply issue which of course a cordless tool avoids the issue..most contractors i speak to and work with only use cordless tools unless there's no version but that's changing rapidly apart from a few select tools.
 The new Brushless TSC55K is arguably now a superior machine than the Corded version from our initial testing and usage.

Hope this helps. :)
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Offline yetihunter

  • Posts: 765
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2021, 12:02 AM »
I've been looking into buying into festool for awhile (currently bosch user) and I've seen festool do cordless tools which should always be used with dust extraction..  saws, sanders etc.

so seeing has festool has the proprietary "Plug it" connection so the vacuum hose and cable can be as one.. what exactly is the point in a cordless tool from festool? makes sense with other brands that don't have this feature (plug it) as you have to change cables.

thoughts? I'm I missing something? or are the cordless festools indeed pointless? [blink]

So we're on the same page: the newest batteries start the newest vacs, so you don't need a cord to start it (I don't use any of that, I just use a bluetooth button). 

If you need cordless, you fall under two categories:

1.) Dealing with minimal residential power or a generator and want to use as little mains equipment as possible (cordless table and miter saws are huge for that reason).
2.) You really need to access tricky locations, in which case, you probably aren't carrying dust extractors or hoses with you.

Now, when it's time to go indoors or off the roof or whatever, do you want to go and buy the same tool but corded?  No, you don't.  So, Festool and other manufacturers have made it so that their cordless tools can commit to the same health and safety stuff as their corded counterparts.

The one part you're missing is that a dust bag does a half decent job.   

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 139
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2021, 02:16 AM »
The one part you're missing is that a dust bag does a half decent job.
Absolutely true. I think a lot of people don't realize that the cordless sanders and track saw, when used correctly, can gather the majority of dust themselves. (Festool claims 90% dust collection on the TSC 55 with just the bag, for example, and I've never had any reason to doubt it.) The main downside is that the little attachment bags fill up very quickly: if you're doing longer sanding or cutting sessions, dealing with the attached hose tends to be the lesser annoyance compared to emptying the dust bag repeatedly.

Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 121
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2021, 04:20 AM »
i dont do a huge amount of site work, compared to some people, but practilcy all my tools are corldess, i just prefer the conveniance of not having to plug in a cord.  even my scms is cordless.  that is usefull.  e.g. next week i am making some gates for a mate, and they are at the end of a track, with the nearest power 50m away.  easy to deal with when cordless.  i have a feeling my tsc and psc will be very usefull. [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down
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Offline Coen

  • Posts: 998
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2021, 01:14 PM »
The new style 'bags' on the sanders are definitely better than the paper variants of 10 years ago. Mine tended to go leaking at the folds... I bought a 2nd CTL.

Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 121
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2021, 06:03 AM »
i havent used a festool sander, but i recently got a erbauer sander, and the dc with the box is brilliant, its basically a mini cyclone.
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down
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Offline bidn

  • Posts: 17
  • hobbyist
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #73 on: May 25, 2021, 07:28 AM »
A lot of interesting answers here. Much of this discussion would be pointless if companies would systematically offer  battery-format AC to DC adapters. Black & Decker patents date from around 1990, having long expired. Yet such converters are way too rare, I know only Hikoki ( Metabo HPT in the USA) 36V adapter, and the one by Festool for their cordless sander (not helpful because deviating from their very own battery standard...).

BTW I too have asked Festool to produce a battery-operated, T-Loc systainer sized vac.
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Offline mino

  • Posts: 494
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2021, 08:50 AM »
A lot of interesting answers here. Much of this discussion would be pointless if companies would systematically offer  battery-format AC to DC adapters. Black & Decker patents date from around 1990, having long expired. Yet such converters are way too rare, I know only Hikoki ( Metabo HPT in the USA) 36V adapter, and the one by Festool for their cordless sander (not helpful because deviating from their very own battery standard...).

BTW I too have asked Festool to produce a battery-operated, T-Loc systainer sized vac.
Making an adapter that would have sufficient power /modern 10-cell packs can provide burst power up to 1000 W and more/ and would also be practical - not too bulky, not too heavy, not too expensive - is not easy. If possible at all.

There are a few who would pay $200 or $300 for a "power brick" were it to use cutting edge tech to be compact-enough.

That is likely while HPT could make the 36V adapter but did not attempt to make an 18V one. The lower the output voltage, the higher the current, the stronger the electronics and the more heat is generated from the conversion.

Having "adapter" which will tend to overheat in continuous use - the whole purpose of having it - makes little sense. It can be done these days, but would be very expensive reducing the market for it very much. Doubly so in the Festool case where they not a mass maker AND have the Plug-It which makes a lot of the hassle with cords go away.

I think the small sander adapter was feasible simply because of the low peak power requirements of the sanders. So they can make one cost-effectively at a comparable size and weight to a battery pack. Yet I see it as mostly a hobby tool for who wants to avoid having multiple tools. Pros still go with the corded version (in addition to a cordless one) as it is lighter by avoiding the voltage double-conversion contraption.

I would even argue that for a hobby user it does not make -much- economical sense in many cases. The adapter goes for €100 while the sander can be had for €250 or so. You get a better tool when corded to boot and have two sanders so do to not have to swap papers all the time.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Offline rst

  • Posts: 2621
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2021, 09:32 AM »
I have the Metabo HPT 36/18 table saw.  The first time I used it I was ripping 10' 2x6 to make purlins using the batteries I had.  When I bought min Metabo was offering a free battery and a free adaptor.  Since I only had four batteries, I tried using the adaptor.  I did not have main power in my new shop and still am using four 25'- 10ga and a 50' 12 ga SJO extension cords. Anyway, I tried using my Honda 2200, rated at 13 amp running. It immediately popped the over load, as it did when I was trying to use my 15 amp Milwaukee Sawzall when cutting fence posts.  So, it was time to look at the electrical specs...20 amp...WOW, gonna need a bigger Honda.  Bought more batteries instead.  Saw is a great tool, biggest table, dado capable, great gear driven fence that is easily adjusted.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 494
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2021, 10:41 AM »
Bigger generator will likely not help much unless you get a really huge one.

Using a smaller generator to charge packs is actually a pretty efficient way. The generator can work at a consistent load and then be turned off. Much better than running corded tools off of a big generator with the generator running most of the time in no-load  mode.

A motor in the saw is likely not having any soft-start electronics as the batteries behavior under load will limit the peak power naturally.

When not limited, you can easily see 10 kW momentary peaks when starting a strong motor. As long as the adapter was able to handle it, it would pull over 20A on peak loads easily form the mains.

However a generator cannot handle peaks even though the wiring can bear them. Its max output is limited by the converter electronics which is rarely overbuilt to handle high peak loads. Anyway, you usually do not have a big-enough flywheel to avoid halting the engine if the load was too high.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline bidn

  • Posts: 17
  • hobbyist
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2021, 04:24 PM »
Thank you for your very interesting answers, mino!
BS 75 set, HKC 55 Li EB+ SCA, TS 75 EBQ+, TSC 55 K, Erika 85 Ec + options, KS 120 EB, OF 1400 EBQ+, OF 1010 EBQ+,  Carvex  PSC 420+, ZH-SYS-PS-420, P1 cc, RO 90 DX FEQ+, RO 150 FEQ+, 2 x Deros 5650cv, Deos Delta 663CV, CTL 22 E SG, CTL 26 E, PDC 18/4 set XL, Ti 18+3, C15 Li 4,2 Set, Sys 1 CE-Sort, many Milwaukee and a few Metabo 18V.