Author Topic: festool cordless tools pointless?  (Read 10683 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline monkeyclimber

  • Posts: 3
festool cordless tools pointless?
« on: February 20, 2021, 08:11 PM »
I've been looking into buying into festool for awhile (currently bosch user) and I've seen festool do cordless tools which should always be used with dust extraction..  saws, sanders etc.

so seeing has festool has the proprietary "Plug it" connection so the vacuum hose and cable can be as one.. what exactly is the point in a cordless tool from festool? makes sense with other brands that don't have this feature (plug it) as you have to change cables.

thoughts? I'm I missing something? or are the cordless festools indeed pointless? [blink]


Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1608
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer - 22/02/21 inactive.
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2021, 08:33 PM »
I'm not sure I'm getting the point of your post?

Festool offers various tools, corded and cordless, various dust extraction hoses including those that are paired with a plug it cable - but usually the extractors come with regular hoses without the added plug it cable. Dust extractors also come with a regular outlet to connect any tool you want to, and have bluetooth functionality so you can pair the battery of your Festool cordless tool with the vacuum and use auto-start. On top of that, Festool offers a bluetooth remote that can be attached to the dust extractor's hose and start/stop the vacuum as well. Which is great for non-Festool cordless tools, and countless dust-extraction accessories.

So what makes you think Festool cordless tools are pointless? Is this a question related to attaching the hose, thinking if there's a hose there could be as well a cable?

From my experience, you still profit greatly from a cordless tool even when connected to a dust extraction hose. YMMV.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 464
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2021, 09:07 PM »
Cordless tools have come a long way over the last 40 odd years.

But they still have a long way to go, too.  Dust extraction is but one aspect of their inadequacies that are at last being tentatively addressed.

There will come a time when the majority of hand-held power tools will be cordless, integrated into system architecture, and capable of actually performing in a manner that truly rivals their mains powered alternatives.  That time is still some way off, it appears.

Manufacturers from the far east appear to lead in development & adoption of these new technologies.
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1365
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2021, 09:39 PM »
Your question is really multi-part.

One of the major reasons for Festool stuff is dust collection, other European makes do similar for a lot of things, but your American brands tend not to, it's a major reason for me to buy Festool tools over similar tools from other brands.  So yes, with that, you have a hose attached to them.  Not sure there is any tool Festool makes without dust collection that I have much interest in.

So yes, once you hook a hose to it, you are connected, a battery tool looses a lot of its benefit at that point. But it is one less thing to fight. Managing both cord and hose at the same time can be a real PITA. Also things like sanders do have dust bags, not that they are something I find very useful.

So it comes back to how deep are you in the system or tools.  I like lots of folks have a ton of Milkwaukee M18 tools.  It makes buying even the most oddball M18 too a no brainer.  If you are someone who is going to go all in on Festool and have some of their tools in battery form, then getting battery versions of everything starts to make sense.

If I was starting over, and were to find festool had all the tools I need, I might go that route, but they simply are not going to have all the tools of other systems.  So then it means buying Festool Battery tools will be much more limited, which then you really have to make a choice on if it is worth it.

Some folks really value the Festool drills, so if you are all ready buying some of those, and have the batteries, then getting tools in battery versions that they offer makes sense. Yes you still have a hose, but now with the bluetooth batteries, things work seamless.

You really need to decide if you want to buy into a systems batteries, once you do, then battery versions of everything makes a lot of sense. Of course there will always be the flip side that a lot of the corded tools are basically going to be bulletproof and last forever, they also cost less. So for tools you might not use a lot, corded is a great answer.

If I was using the tools every day, I don't think I would blink at going battery. Sanding with just the hose would be easier for sure.

Offline monkeyclimber

  • Posts: 3
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2021, 10:07 PM »
I'm not sure I'm getting the point of your post?

Festool offers various tools, corded and cordless, various dust extraction hoses including those that are paired with a plug it cable - but usually the extractors come with regular hoses without the added plug it cable. Dust extractors also come with a regular outlet to connect any tool you want to, and have bluetooth functionality so you can pair the battery of your Festool cordless tool with the vacuum and use auto-start. On top of that, Festool offers a bluetooth remote that can be attached to the dust extractor's hose and start/stop the vacuum as well. Which is great for non-Festool cordless tools, and countless dust-extraction accessories.

So what makes you think Festool cordless tools are pointless? Is this a question related to attaching the hose, thinking if there's a hose there could be as well a cable?

From my experience, you still profit greatly from a cordless tool even when connected to a dust extraction hose. YMMV.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Hi Oliver,

my question is why would someone, lets say for example sake buy the cordless version of the ts55 when the corded version is quite a lot cheaper and has the same (if not more) mobility than the cordless version as the cable can be run in the vacuum hose's sleeve on the corded version..

I presume the cordless version is actually heavier? and less powerful?

does the Bluetooth do anything other than turn the vacuum on and off at tool start/stop?


Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 9659
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2021, 11:16 PM »
Options.

     Some examples from my own site work -----

    I have a TSC55 (cordless) that goes to sites. I have power at sites about 100% of the time. But I make very few TS55 cuts on site. Sometimes one or two during an install. The dust bag collection on the saw is actually quite good. So in my case I generally can find a spot to lay out foam on the floor, possibly in an adjacent room or where ever to make that one saw cut. Having the cordless means I can just take the saw and go make the cut. without having to switch out tools or move the vac., or run a power cord.

     In the case of Vecturo not having the cord is just one less thing hanging up on you, or a piece of hardware, or under your knee, etc. when you have crawled into a cabinet to make some awkward cut to remove a piece or the like.

     Cordless sander is very nice when walking through a room or several rooms knocking off small nail or screw fill spots.

     In general sometimes it is just handy to be cordless with or without the vac hose.

Seth

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1331
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2021, 11:35 PM »
Couldnt figure out a good answer for that very same question myself. So I dont own any Festool cordless tools :)
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline PreferrablyWood

  • Posts: 968
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2021, 03:47 AM »
I read about the pros and cons of cordless versus corded tools with interest. it's a good point about the mismatch of a cordless tool with dust extractor. I think if Festool offered a cordless dust extractor it would be a better match.

Another solution is of course having the dust collection bag on the tool like som sanders offer as an accessory and the TSC and HKC, not as good as an external extractor but workable.

Finally many operations can be performed with handtools which often don't generate as much dust if you need mobility, I'm thinking here planing, hand sanding with an ergonomic block small touch ups. using a rasp, chiseling, drilling in softwood with a cordless drill doesn't generate annoying dust either.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 03:53 AM by PreferrablyWood »
TS 55 R EBQ, Vecturo OSC, BHC SDS, RO 150, 850 HL E Planer, MFS 400x2, MFS extensions MFS VB 700 x 1 MFS VB 1000 x 2 . CMS GE, OF 2200, CMS OF+ CMS TS 75 insert modules. SYS-MFT Fixing-Set, 
Festool 18V HKC 55, TI 15, CXS 2.6 Ah version, RO 90 DX, PDC 18/4 plus   TS 75 EBQ, PSC 420, OF 1010, RS 300 EQ, CTL Midi, MFT 3

Online Alex

  • Posts: 7563
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2021, 03:52 AM »
ROFL, people begged and screamed for cordless tools, and now they have them it's not good either?

Just accept we're not at once in a perfect world and in the mean time appreciate you get options.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1010
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2021, 06:22 AM »
Festool are indeed trying.. to satisfy even the most demanding of us.
If one can’t decide, there’s an obvious place to start with Festool:  [big grin]

Corded
Cordless
With dust bag
Without dust bag
With dust collector
Without dust collector:

Sure, it can be used as a sanding block too.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 697
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2021, 06:41 AM »
Never worked on many building sites then eh?

Offline promark747

  • Posts: 485
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2021, 08:44 AM »
Quote from: monkeyclimber
I presume the cordless version is actually heavier? and less powerful?

I’ve seen many people say the cordless TSC55 is actually more powerful than the corded TS55.

I think the blade also stops faster (pretty much instantaneously) on the TSC.

Offline monkeyclimber

  • Posts: 3
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2021, 08:50 AM »
ROFL, people begged and screamed for cordless tools, and now they have them it's not good either?

Just accept we're not at once in a perfect world and in the mean time appreciate you get options.

who did?

The point I was making was that tools that require dust extraction don't need to be cordless if its from Festool as their plug it cable makes connecting the tool just as fast as connecting the vacuum hose & faster than pairing Bluetooth battery's with a Bluetooth vacuum. (Cheaper/More Powerful/Less to go wrong) also




Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1010
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2021, 09:00 AM »
Never worked on many building sites then eh?

 [wink] Exactly, but yes I have done a few. That’s why I chose Festool to my “private” building site.
There’s not many Festool products I would have brought to a site, but a HK saw, and a very few other Festool’s.

The kit on a building site would probably consist of Makita, Milwaukee, DeWalt and Metabo. Just as Rob Robillard in A Concord Carpenter have chosen. Most FT would have stayed in the shop.
As the kit would have been banged around, and therefore would have been of the more rough character to get the job done. FT has not its strength (and pricing) to compete very well, at least not over here) They’re more of a specialists or enthusiasts brand on sites. In a kitchen/cabinet shop and so forth, yes, very common.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline MaineShop

  • Posts: 98
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2021, 09:20 AM »
I thought this was a great question topic Monkeyclimber. I have a lot of festools in the shop but most are corded for exactly the reason you are pointing out. I am almost always going to use them with dust collection so what is the point in getting a cordless since I am always gonna have to plug in the CT.

I also have some real doubts about their expanded offerings lately. I feel like if you really want a spot in the job trailer with cordless tools they have to greatly expand their offerings. In our jobsite trailer there are no longer any corded tools. The final hold out up until the last few years were always the table saw and the compressor. Now both Milwaukee and Dewalt have excellent cordless options in both of those cases and the spread of battery powered nailers had already lessened the compressor issue. The reality is battery platform. When you are building out jobsite tools you really need to try and stay within one or two battery platforms because when you are talking about having 30 or 40 tools in the trailer and several dozen batteries you are running all the time, you are not going to have 5 different battery platforms in that trailer.

The festool stuff is nice but without a broader range at least including more of the basic tools in cordless such as sawsalls, and trim nailers and such it is hard for them to really edge into being a top competitor.

Now that being said, I am really excited to see them finally pushing into the cordless market and if they keep going in that direction by adding more of the expansion type tools and specialty tools in cordless I will be a quick adopter because their tools always seem to be worth the added price over the competition. I just need more offerings to justify buying deep into their platform.

We have a tens of thousands in their tools in the shop and I have tried to dip in the new cordless platform where it made sense in the work flow. Our shop layout is segmented and we typically rip our sheet goods lengthwise in a different part of the shop then where the dust collectors are. So I picked up a cordless ts55  and a 9 ft rail just for that task that lives in that area and in that case it made sense and has worked good. But the real appeal of cordless is site work. And for heavy adoption at least in my experience they need to expand the line to get real adoption. They don't need all the trade specific but at least some of the stuff that almost all the other main brands have, especially the wood working focused ones. Things that come to mind are a sawsall, trim router, small miter saw, planer, Cordless dust collector, and maybe a trim nailer. If I see them push into some of this, especially the sawsall, I am placing orders.

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 697
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2021, 09:26 AM »
Never worked on many building sites then eh?

 [wink] Exactly, but yes I have done a few. That’s why I chose Festool to my “private” building site.
There’s not many Festool products I would have brought to a site, but a HK saw, and a very few other Festool’s.

The kit on a building site would probably consist of Makita, Milwaukee, DeWalt and Metabo. Just as Rob Robillard in A Concord Carpenter have chosen. Most FT would have stayed in the shop.
As the kit would have been banged around, and therefore would have been of the more rough character to get the job done. FT has not its strength (and pricing) to compete very well, at least not over here) They’re more of a specialists or enthusiasts brand on sites. In a kitchen/cabinet shop and so forth, yes, very common.

I don't know about anyone else but personally I'm not fussed about Festools offerings on the drill front and really couldnt care less about them.
However I find the HKC saw to be an excellent tool thats out the van almost every working day.
I have a a TS55 and hardly ever use it now I have the HKC.
That HKC gets properly used, up on a roof, doing concrete formwork, framing through to kitchens.
Sometimes I hook it upto an extractor (not having a cordless extractor is becoming increasingly annoying nowadays as the sites I'm on often have power thats intermittent at best) but most times when I'm working in a building the windows arent even in so its... well ventilated and I just use the dust bag on it.

Nowadays I basically don't want anything thats got a cord. I've been a self employed subcontractor for 17 years now and for me cordless is definitely the way forward.
Working on peoples homes is differennt and power is often more likely to be availible. I detest working in peoples homes though and would rather stick a fork in my eye.
Also we have to get ourcorded  tools PAT tested by an electrician every six or so months, this can cost money.
The cordless tools don't need it (although the chargers do but theres a LOT less chargers than tools) so cordless tools are less of a bother.

Its funny how many of us can only really see how we work and not realise how different circumstances change the methods of working.
Me I'm baffled at people who like those little 3Ah batteries because for me charging batteries is an effort and sometimes a charging point is a good distance away in an area where theft is an issue.
So I buy minimum 5Ah batteries so its less often.
Garage-wallahs are 10 feet away from a socket at most and love the lergonomics and light weight of those tools.
You couldn't give me one.

As I understand it the TSC is more powerful than the TS55 so they're not always giving up anything on power anyway.

Offline MaineShop

  • Posts: 98
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2021, 09:29 AM »
Just a follow up, Festool needs to do a better job about bringing their whole catalog to the states. Bosch has the same problem and thats why you almost never see them on serious job sites here despite them making some really great tools.

Talking to folks that have worked in Europe and here one of the main differences in the US vs working in Europe is the space. It sounds like based on what I am hearing in Europe a lot of builders are constrained by space, often having to work out of vans or squeezing a lot of the tooling into cramped job sites. Vs here in the state many job sites I am on will usually have multiple large trailers camped at the jobs and usually most of the builders or general contractors will have large shops or yards where additional tools and equipment are stored and milling parts assembled or produced. All that space leads to an expectation of large tool inventories. Dewalt and milwaukee provide the depth of range for that. Even Ryobi dose. Festool needs to expand that range. I know they have tools that are not available in the states. If you want me to buy more of your stuff I wanna know there is more to buy, I only need so many drills and track saws.

Online Alex

  • Posts: 7563
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2021, 10:05 AM »
ROFL, people begged and screamed for cordless tools, and now they have them it's not good either?

Just accept we're not at once in a perfect world and in the mean time appreciate you get options.

who did?

People. Like that guy over there and the guy behind him also.  Not sure about that third guy though. [tongue]

Jokes aside, there was a time Festool only had cordless drills and nothing more. Many people here on the forum wanted more from Festool and asked. If you read this thread, there are still more people who want even more options.

The point I was making was that tools that require dust extraction don't need to be cordless if its from Festool as their plug it cable makes connecting the tool just as fast as connecting the vacuum hose & faster than pairing Bluetooth battery's with a Bluetooth vacuum. (Cheaper/More Powerful/Less to go wrong) also

No tool requires dust extraction by definition. Sometimes dust is perfectly happy to fall on the ground instead of being sucked up in a dark hole.

And sometimes dust creating tools come with a dust bag so you can sort-of catch the dust. It is all about having options.

I am not a big user of cordless tools, I prefer them corded. Dusty tools are hooked up to my vac and most of the time I have a 220v socket around. Only my drills are cordless of course. Unless I need to hammer.

But I can see how you sometimes just want to do a quick job and just get the tool without having to go through a long preparation time.

Cordless is only going to get bigger.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 585
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2021, 10:26 AM »
The only Festool I would care to see cordless is the MFK since its the only festool I have that doesnt get hooked to any type of dust control.  Unfortunately it still wouldnt be enough to get me to buy one since I wouldnt invest in a another battery platform for just one tool and Im already heavily invested in another and I hate having different batteries and chargers.   

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 480
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2021, 10:31 AM »
I tend to agree about tools that need active dust collection not needing to be cordless.

If I was doing a lot of on site outdoor work I might consider a cordless track saw though.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8747
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2021, 10:47 AM »
My question is why would someone, lets say for example sake buy the cordless version of the ts55 when the corded version is quite a lot cheaper and has the same (if not more) mobility than the cordless version as the cable can be run in the vacuum hose's sleeve on the corded version..

I presume the cordless version is actually heavier? and less powerful?


I use both the HKC and the TSC with bags which do quite well when they're attached. It's surprising how little dust gets away. The real issue is that they need to be emptied frequently but that just points out how good the dust bag works. Also the TSC seems to have more power than my TS 55...that TS needs to go down the road.  [smile]

I also like the cordless sanders for some applications, say drawer fronts or drawer interiors. In the past I used an ETS 125 & DTS 400 for those chores hooked to a CT 22. Everytime I switched sanders, I had to switch hoses. Then when I changed grits, I'd have to remove the hose again to vacuum the residual dust.
Now, I just keep bags on the ETSC 125 & DTSC 400 and swap between them constantly, no hose to remove & reinstall. When I want to change grits the vacuum is already freed up for use.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 9659
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2021, 11:13 AM »
     

      I thought it was a good question too, and one that I think I asked myself a long time ago. Which is why I gave some examples of why someone might want cordless with a hose attached or the option to attach a hose.

    In addition cordless has the option to be used  both  ways.  You can always take the cordless to a non-power spot even if it is used in the shop connected to a hose most of the time. Or to make a one off cut in the back yard, or to sand a new fence board on your property line for five minutes. But the other way around does not work without running extension cords and hauling out the vac.


     There are lots of pros and cons such as weight , power, handling, price, etc. but the question is --- why cordless tools that hook to a vacuum?

      People use tools and work in different ways and situations. Pretty sure that is one reason Festool offers many of the tools in corded and cordless configurations.

Seth

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1608
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer - 22/02/21 inactive.
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2021, 11:39 AM »
I will share my personal view on this with you. :)

I work around my house & garden and setup shop wherever I need to work. While I have a basement workshop, I mostly setup shop on the patio from March to October.

On the majority of "every day tasks" it would take me longer to run an extension cord, connect everything than it takes me to do the task with a cordless tool that comes out of it Systainer ready to go.

A TSC works flawless with the dust bag in its scope of delivery, is dust collection as good as when connected to a dust extractor? No. But good enough to not pose an unnecessary health risk in terms of escaping dust and good enough to not require hours of cleaning afterwards. So very often I only use the TSC with it's dust bag. Especially outdoors on my patio, in the shed, (...).

A sander's life can be immensely extended when used with a dust extractor as the "turbine blades" get cleaned better and the dust extractor's air stream cools down the internals additionally. The dust of a sander is finer than that of a TSC or Carvex so it's more airborne and therefore you are better off catching that with a dust extractor. That said, my first ever sanding with a Festool DTS was the whole outer shell of a shed - completely done with just the old style filter bags, relying solely on the "turbine" of the sander. And that wasn't a bad experience. Now, when I have to sand I lot, I always make sure the power cord of my sander forms a solid unit with my dust extraction hose by using velcro straps.

Problem solving tools like Carvex, OSC, (...) are often used in cramped spaces, cordless freedom is exactly what you want then. Yet they can be used with dust extraction when that makes sense, the surroundings ask for it - and there is enough space or when they are used for prolonged times.

I don't know how other people use their Carvex (jig saw), but when I use it for a longer time, I tend to use it like a "sportsman" who can play his game with both feet/hands. So one moment I'm cutting upside down with my right hand, then I might switch to my left hand and cut from above. I love not having to "worry" about a cord. And please believe me when I say it's a massive difference if its a power cord or a dust extraction hose thats attached to a tool. I have far less trouble with an attached dust extraction hose than with an attached power cord. And now that Festool offers the smooth hoses for quite some time, it got even easier to guide the hose and have it slide effortlessly on the workpiece or over rails.

Personally I wouldn't want it any other way - and I'm very happy with every cordless tool choice I made, be it Festool or any other make I use.

I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know about Festool's future - but let's just say - they probably will never be a "full range supplier" like Milwaukee, Bosch, DeWalt, (...). And especially not in terms of cordless tools.

I personally don't care if a tool is cheaper when it's corded, if price (to an extent) was a concern for me, I wouldn't buy Festool in first place. And probably also wouldn't buy cordless - as cordless always means keeping an inventory of batteries, replacing worn units and so on. It might even go as far as replacing a whole "system" because it's no longer supported and you don't have a trusted source for battery refurbishment.

I also don't own any tool where I'd say its "missing" power compared to a corded variant.

Again, YMMV. But to me, cordless does not exclude dust extraction per se. And a dust extraction hose does not bother to the same extent that power cords can/do - again, especially with the smooth, flexible hoses that are Festool's standard this day.

Kind regards,
Oliver



I'm not sure I'm getting the point of your post?

Festool offers various tools, corded and cordless, various dust extraction hoses including those that are paired with a plug it cable - but usually the extractors come with regular hoses without the added plug it cable. Dust extractors also come with a regular outlet to connect any tool you want to, and have bluetooth functionality so you can pair the battery of your Festool cordless tool with the vacuum and use auto-start. On top of that, Festool offers a bluetooth remote that can be attached to the dust extractor's hose and start/stop the vacuum as well. Which is great for non-Festool cordless tools, and countless dust-extraction accessories.

So what makes you think Festool cordless tools are pointless? Is this a question related to attaching the hose, thinking if there's a hose there could be as well a cable?

From my experience, you still profit greatly from a cordless tool even when connected to a dust extraction hose. YMMV.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Hi Oliver,

my question is why would someone, lets say for example sake buy the cordless version of the ts55 when the corded version is quite a lot cheaper and has the same (if not more) mobility than the cordless version as the cable can be run in the vacuum hose's sleeve on the corded version..

I presume the cordless version is actually heavier? and less powerful?

does the Bluetooth do anything other than turn the vacuum on and off at tool start/stop?
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1608
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer - 22/02/21 inactive.
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2021, 11:55 AM »
While I still don't have a functioning crystal ball, ;)  and maybe there will be a cordless Festool dust extractor in future, my personal opinion is that Festool was smarter to bring the SYS-Powerstation which can power both a dust extractor and tool for a whole working day. Or let you charge plenty of batteries on one charge.

No I haven't had my hands on one, probably like everyone else with few exceptions - but if it can reliable deliver what Festool claims it can - it's a game changer for anyone needing sanders, concrete grinders, half-stationary machinery + dust extraction in a remote location or on a site without power supply for prolonged times. It simply beats having to show up with 10+ charged batteries everyday - when one (or maybe two) big batteries like the SYS-Powerstation will get you through the day.

Now, unless there's a really great offer I probably won't get the SYS-Powerstation, simply because my actual need for one isn't there. I would have bought it, or would buy it, if I started all over again on remodeling a house - but not in my current situation where I'm done for the most part. So I might still eye cordless dust extractor.

But if I was doing commercial work, I'd get the SYS-Powerstation in a heart beat, to power my regular Festool dust extractor.

Looking at the run times of currently available L/M - Hepa class cordless dust extractors, SYS-Powerstation + regular corded Festool dust extractor (+ tool) - beats all of them. And in a small package compared to running a generator or Bosch's latest offering in terms of a rechargeable battery pack to run corded tools off.

SYS-Powerstation comes at a price - but that's relativized when compared to the price of a cordless half-stationary tool and cordless dust extractor + enough batteries to power both through a full working day of use.

Kind regards,
Oliver

I read about the pros and cons of cordless versus corded tools with interest. it's a good point about the mismatch of a cordless tool with dust extractor. I think if Festool offered a cordless dust extractor it would be a better match.

Another solution is of course having the dust collection bag on the tool like som sanders offer as an accessory and the TSC and HKC, not as good as an external extractor but workable.

Finally many operations can be performed with handtools which often don't generate as much dust if you need mobility, I'm thinking here planing, hand sanding with an ergonomic block small touch ups. using a rasp, chiseling, drilling in softwood with a cordless drill doesn't generate annoying dust either.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 08:12 PM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 893
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2021, 03:13 PM »
Well for me I have the TS55 and I'm happy with that. I use it with DC all the time and when it goes I'll buy the same again.

However, sometimes power isn't available or your working with a skeleton collection of tools at a location and being battery powered for a quick cut or a small job outside can be very handy.

So when the HK Saws were released I got the HKC. It is a great back up saw, and very useful to be able to perform track based cuts on the fly without power.

But then I got the FSK rail for it and started to prefer taking the HKC than the TS55 for certain jobs as the multi rail fi=unctions/options and free hand operation of the HKC were a benefit on certain jobs.

So when Festool released the bluetooth equipped Mini/Midi vacs having the option to use the HKC with Auto DC attached became a great option. . . .

Horses for courses as always. There are lots of options and you just need to decide what is right for you.
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1365
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2021, 03:37 PM »
While I still don't have a functioning crystal ball, ;)  and maybe there will be a cordless Festool dust extractor in future, my personal opinion is that Festool was smarter to bring the SYS-Powerstation which can power both a dust extractor and tool for a whole working day. Or let you charge plenty of batteries on one charge.


I agree those "power stations" not just Festool are going to be big.  Having 1-2 of those you charge up at night verses remembering to pop 10-30 batteries all in their chargers when you get home for the night is a big change.  The battery powered tools are still going to be nice for the reasons folks mention.  But having one giant battery you can use for all your tools and not just Festool stuff will be a big shift.  Being able to run stuff that doesn't come in battery versions too.  So much other stuff you can use them for outside of tools too.

It's way to easy with cordless to forget to pop them in their chargers while your working and before you know if, you got 5 batteries, all are dead, or they have some juice but can't muster for a high power draw task.

Offline Imemiter

  • Posts: 204
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2021, 04:14 PM »

does the Bluetooth do anything other than turn the vacuum on and off at tool start/stop?

I think there's an app that'll track the power levels and whatnot. But this question opens the floor to the mind expanding utility of the Bluetooth Button.

 With the Button you get fast access to vacuum switching using cordless tools from any brand. I'll even use it with corded tools sometimes. Like say when I just need a quick cut but don't want to climb under the workbench to plug into the vacuum. I can plug into whatever outlet is closest to me and switch on the vac from the Button. The BT Button is the real "as One" answer in a way that the Plug-it really isn't. The Plug-it, even with the hose sleeve, is actually still a two part operation. Cordless tools make it one, but additionally (with dust bags,) they free us from the struggle and constraint of cords and hoses altogether. Freedom is the point.  [laughing]
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 04:16 PM by Imemiter »
CSX T18+3 TID18 HKC55 OSC18 OS400 OF1010 LR32 DF700 RAS115 DTS400 ETC125 CTSys CTMidi CT-VA

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 600
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2021, 04:24 PM »
Festool are indeed trying.. to satisfy even the most demanding of us.
If one can’t decide, there’s an obvious place to start with Festool:  [big grin]

Corded
Cordless
With dust bag
Without dust bag
With dust collector
Without dust collector:
(Attachment Link)
Sure, it can be used as a sanding block too.

The RTSC Kit (Set?) was something I felt comfortable buying as a cordless especially because of the versatility you mention.  It helped, too, that the reviews said that it was just as balanced with the power adapter "battery" as with an actual battery.

I also got the little hand block with dust collection, too, because it was much more comfortable to use as a sanding block than the RTSC, but once I added the hose and a systainer I was in for almost as much as the bare tool RTSC.

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 600
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2021, 04:34 PM »

does the Bluetooth do anything other than turn the vacuum on and off at tool start/stop?

I think there's an app that'll track the power levels and whatnot. But this question opens the floor to the mind expanding utility of the Bluetooth Button.

 With the Button you get fast access to vacuum switching using cordless tools from any brand. I'll even use it with corded tools sometimes. Like say when I just need a quick cut but don't want to climb under the workbench to plug into the vacuum. I can plug into whatever outlet is closest to me and switch on the vac from the Button. The BT Button is the real "as One" answer in a way that the Plug-it really isn't. The Plug-it, even with the hose sleeve, is actually still a two part operation. Cordless tools make it one, but additionally (with dust bags,) they free us from the struggle and constraint of cords and hoses altogether. Freedom is the point.  [laughing]

I was using my "contractor cleaning kit" last night to sweep up the garage floor.  I still have the old Mini but I've seen enough demonstrations of "The Button" to know that it could easily turn something like the Mini into a nice little house cleaner, too; great for stairs.  Can't remember the video, but I saw someone had modified their Button with a Smart Watch armband to make it even more convenient to use than being attached around the end of the hose.

Serge had a good example of the utility of including bluetooth batteries with the 18V drills, not only for using some of the DC attachments for the drills (which admittedly I had never knew existed) but also for cross-compatibility with the other cordless Festools that can use the BT batteries.

Offline gunnyr

  • Posts: 287
    • Compass Custom Creations
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2021, 04:58 PM »
I thought this was a great question topic Monkeyclimber. I have a lot of festools in the shop but most are corded for exactly the reason you are pointing out. I am almost always going to use them with dust collection so what is the point in getting a cordless since I am always gonna have to plug in the CT.
......

 Things that come to mind are a sawsall, trim router, small miter saw, planer, Cordless dust collector, and maybe a trim nailer. If I see them push into some of this, especially the sawsall, I am placing orders.

Well said @MaineShop

IMHO Festool's greatest shortcoming in the cordless line is the failure to market a cordless dust collector.  For the life of me I can't understand why Festool wasted the effort producing the CT SYS as a corded only extractor.  For the money AND performance I'm keeping my CT MIDI.
Semper Fi,
Jeff

TS 55 REQ|HKC 55|PSB 420|DF 500|ETS EC 125/3 EQ|ETS 150/3|ETSC 125|DTSC 400|RO 90|RO 150|OF 1400|MFK 700|LR 32|MFS 400/700|CXS (2)|PDC 18|DWC 18-4500|CT MIDI|CT 26|CT 48|MFT/3 (2)|VAC SYS-SET|STL 450|DUO-SET|SYSLITE KAL II
US Marines - UK Wildcats - Cincinnati Reds

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1365
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2021, 05:15 PM »
A cordless CT will happen in time.  But when they made it, it wasn't an option.  It still has a benefit of being fairly small, and fitting in the stack. But, such a CT probably would not have a plug for the corded tools, it would be battery powered and use blue tooth for the cordless tools. Putting a DC to AC inverter in there would just add a lot of weight/space, etc to it. Plus you would have people trying to run an OF2200 off it.

I think a lot of folks would like to see something like a CT26 sized unit, in the systainer form factor. Something that works will for the big tools, doesn't fill quick, but they can toss it in their stacks.  Add to that a revised cyclone that is a full up systainer, not the awkward container gap.  Now folks can stack it up with all their other systainers, even have in a rack setup if folks have that, and when not in use, it just goes back in the stack with with all the other tools.

I have 2 CT26's.  I wish they were the same form factor as the systainers.  I have the cyclone, I wish it wasn't a top and bottom unit, I have a very early one, so I don't have the suspenders, but even still, I'd like it to all be a T-lock solution. To be able to pack them all up into a cabinet when not in use would be great.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Imemiter

  • Posts: 204
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2021, 05:38 PM »

I was using my "contractor cleaning kit" last night to sweep up the garage floor.  I still have the old Mini but I've seen enough demonstrations of "The Button" to know that it could easily turn something like the Mini into a nice little house cleaner, too; great for stairs.  Can't remember the video, but I saw someone had modified their Button with a Smart Watch armband to make it even more convenient to use than being attached around the end of the hose.

I have a client who loves to "help" sometimes. Honestly, I should nix the air-quotes because she's a really hard worker and smart as all heck. Anyway, she'll text wanting to know if I'm bringing a vacuum. "Bring the one with the Button" she'll say. If I need a vac for DC, I have to bring two because I'm not getting the Button away from her! :D 
CSX T18+3 TID18 HKC55 OSC18 OS400 OF1010 LR32 DF700 RAS115 DTS400 ETC125 CTSys CTMidi CT-VA

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 605
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2021, 07:24 PM »

Its funny how many of us can only really see how we work and not realise how different circumstances change the methods of working.
Me I'm baffled at people who like those little 3Ah batteries because for me charging batteries is an effort and sometimes a charging point is a good distance away in an area where theft is an issue.
So I buy minimum 5Ah batteries so its less often.
Garage-wallahs are 10 feet away from a socket at most and love the lergonomics and light weight of those tools.
You couldn't give me one.

As I understand it the TSC is more powerful than the TS55 so they're not always giving up anything on power anyway.

I am exactly one of those guys. I work in a commercial cabinet shop, never going out into the field. There are guys who do that and only that, they are never in the shop. I am never more than a few feet from a charger that is plugged in and ready to go. I have 4 of the actual Makita 2ah batteries and 2 of the cheap knock-offs. It's enough to cover the 2 impact drivers, 2 drills and 2 compact routers all at once, but I can't use them all at the same time anyway, so if one is in the charger for a few minutes, it's fine.
The only cordless Festool item I have is the CXS and that's been ok for a while. Lately though I have been looking into the Vecturo. I would have preferred the corded version, all things being equal, but they aren't. As I understand it, the newer accessories are not compatible with the corded version. That makes it a no-go, but I really don't want to get into the full sized battery platform for just one tool either. That's why I have done nothing about it at this point.


Someone else mentioned that there is not really any tool designed to be used with dust extraction required.
To this I would say that extraction is absolutely required with the Domino. Even though I have seen a few people "get by with it" on a DF500, I wouldn't do it,(and Festool doesn't want you too) and that's only at 28mm maximum plunge depth. With the DF700? No Way
With the other tools it's a cleanliness and health advantage, with the deep plunge of the DF700, I would say it's mechanical. Those chips just won't clear out of the hole quickly enough to keep it from binding up. At very best, you will get an over-sized mortise from the wobble. At worst? broken bit, maybe more, like the gearbox itself?
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1365
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2021, 08:36 PM »
Well, if you get into cutting into concrete and such, then dust collection becomes a must. But far as a tool that won't function without a vacuum, yeah, probably nothing.

I would say routers come pretty close to being a tool with mandatory dust collection. It's why I keep looking at the festool routers. I have a small dewalt with dust collection bits, it kinda works.  When I have run it without dust collection, the amount of mess is just insane and not acceptable.

I just don't want the mess around, so it's become a big thing for me, and I wish I had discovered festool stuff far sooner.

I'm actually curious if at some point OSHA and their global cousins might step in and start mandating dust extractor interlocks on tools, where they just can't run without being connected to some form of dust extraction.

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 643
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2021, 01:13 PM »
There are plenty situations where you don’t  need a vac. Think outside cutting, sanding, etc.

Myself, I just went with the corded versions where possible. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1365
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2021, 01:26 PM »
eh,  I don't want the mess outside either.  Sweeping sawdust out of grass much harder than sweeping a floor.  Plus wind and such, I don't see how things change being outside over inside.  It may not be critical like inside, but why would folks want the mess or be covered in dust outside?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8747
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2021, 01:34 PM »
eh,  I don't want the mess outside either.  Sweeping sawdust out of grass much harder than sweeping a floor.  Plus wind and such, I don't see how things change being outside over inside.  It may not be critical like inside, but why would folks want the mess or be covered in dust outside?

That's when you fire up the back-pack blower. [cool]

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1010
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2021, 01:49 PM »
eh,  I don't want the mess outside either.  Sweeping sawdust out of grass much harder than sweeping a floor.  Plus wind and such, I don't see how things change being outside over inside.  It may not be critical like inside, but why would folks want the mess or be covered in dust outside?

That's when you fire up the back-pack blower. [cool]

Or when you don’t own a back pack blower [poke] but have a compressor and an air gun. Even the tools get impressively clean in a blink of an eye. Pre-Festool dust collecting, it’s been the default way  [big grin]
Then, the new CT Mini/Midi has a blower port.. [wink]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 643
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2021, 02:38 PM »
eh,  I don't want the mess outside either.  Sweeping sawdust out of grass much harder than sweeping a floor.  Plus wind and such, I don't see how things change being outside over inside.  It may not be critical like inside, but why would folks want the mess or be covered in dust outside?
If you just need to make few cuts... plain wood and a bit of dust (not treated) isn’t that bad. Obviously not MDF, painted and the like.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 545
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2021, 02:41 PM »
I love my cordless drill, but it spins at 1,375 rpm (no load) and probably 1,000 to 1,100 under load drilling 8mm holes. 

My old corded drill spins at 3,500 rpm and does not appear to slow down at all drilling 8mm holes.

I use my corded drill for dowel holes and for pocket holes.  Not only does it go faster (much faster if you are drilling for a lot of dowels), the holes are cleaner.  Invariably I have access to power when I use those tools and they tend to be used at a specific workstation. 

So don't throw out those 110 volt power tools.  They do some jobs better than the battery-powered tools.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1365
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2021, 02:54 PM »
yeah, sometimes old school holeshooter/hammer drill is the answer, and if you got a lot of holes, the cord is just fine to deal with, verses running out of battery every 2 and a 1/2 holes.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2021, 04:02 PM »
I love my cordless drill, but it spins at 1,375 rpm (no load) and probably 1,000 to 1,100 under load drilling 8mm holes. 

My old corded drill spins at 3,500 rpm and does not appear to slow down at all drilling 8mm holes.

I use my corded drill for dowel holes and for pocket holes.  Not only does it go faster (much faster if you are drilling for a lot of dowels), the holes are cleaner.  Invariably I have access to power when I use those tools and they tend to be used at a specific workstation. 

So don't throw out those 110 volt power tools.  They do some jobs better than the battery-powered tools.
You do want to look at the DRC/PDC and more so the newer TDC/TPC line with their 4-speed gearboxes and 3800/3600 top speed.

That said, common 8mm HSS drill bits are best used around 1000 rpm. They tend to burn or are "grinding" instead of "cutting" the material at higher speed. Love my DRC!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 04:34 PM by mino »
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2654
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2021, 04:15 PM »
I sell, service and install commercial steel and aluminum entrances, the only corded tool I use on site is Milwaukee's SDS Max 1 3/4" rotary hammer drill.  I don't use it for hole drilling but rather for it's impressive chiseling function...great for removing existing grout filled steel frames.  I use my M18 1 9/16" SDS for lighter drilling and chiseling.   The remainder of my van based tools are Milwaukee, Fein and Metabo.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 1057
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2021, 08:47 PM »
Just like ethernet versus WiFi it is plugged in if it can be. I choose to use dust extraction whenever possible so having a cordless tool connected to vacuum hose is of limited benefit. That said, I admit that I do have some yellow and red cordless tools: mitre saw, table saw, jigsaw, blower, router for when power is not readily available and I do not want to run long cords. They are used outside where dust collection is not a concern.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1051
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2021, 11:42 AM »
My old corded drill spins at 3,500 rpm and does not appear to slow down at all drilling 8mm holes.

Nor when you let go of the trigger.

That annoys me the most about corded drills. Drill some 4mm holes in wood and spent longer waiting for the machine stopping to spin the drillbit than actually drilling..

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2021, 02:02 PM »
Nor when you let go of the trigger.

That annoys me the most about corded drills. Drill some 4mm holes in wood and spent longer waiting for the machine stopping to spin the drillbit than actually drilling..
Nothing to do with the drill being corded. Everything to do with the drill not having a brake.

The better corded drills tend to have a brake. Just is not common. The same way there are cordless drills without a brake but they are not common.

Most cordless drills are really no drills but compromise drill-drivers and the brake is essential for the driver function where you do not want your bit spinning between screws ... The DRC/PDC line being more of an exception and it needed a special gearbox to boot.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1051
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2021, 07:19 PM »
Yes, true. But as you; in general corded drills dont have a brake, and in general cordless ones do. It's also true that in general the cordless drills have much better low-RPM torque.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2054
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2021, 08:35 PM »
I'd say that, if you are using the tools in a workshop and do not need them to be mobile, there are limited usefulness for cordless tools. Tools like drill/drivers and maybe jigsaws can be very useful in the shop but, for the most part, I find that I don't need cordless in the shop. Since I would hook up my sander to my CT in the shop anyway, I don't think a cordless tool would be a good use of my money. If I were a remodeler, carpenter, builder, etc., I think the cordless versions of the tools would be very useful in certain situations; being more mobile around the worksite. I only own a cordless drill/driver and impact driver since that is the only tool that was economical and useful for me in my shop.
Randy

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2021, 03:28 AM »
I'd say that, if you are using the tools in a workshop and do not need them to be mobile, there are limited usefulness for cordless tools. Tools like drill/drivers and maybe jigsaws can be very useful in the shop but, for the most part, I find that I don't need cordless in the shop. Since I would hook up my sander to my CT in the shop anyway, I don't think a cordless tool would be a good use of my money. If I were a remodeler, carpenter, builder, etc., I think the cordless versions of the tools would be very useful in certain situations; being more mobile around the worksite. I only own a cordless drill/driver and impact driver since that is the only tool that was economical and useful for me in my shop.
I think a big part of the cordless market is hobby users where the versatility rules and "the battery platform cost" is not high as they can get by with one battery set for a lot of tools, not using them at the same time normally.

If I have only one tool, I want it cordless but it must be as powerful a corded to cover both the roles. Also a hobby user would have short "here and there" use cases where pulling down the extension cord can be a chore. Lastly, my jobs are usually not big enough to drain a battery and if they are, it is no issue to wait for it to charge and/or continue the next day.

Not so simple for a professional user with deadlines so there the trade-off can go with the (lighter) corded tools as the battery change/charge/size is more of a hassle than the cord at often a fixed workstation is.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Online Alex

  • Posts: 7563
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2021, 04:03 AM »
Not so simple for a professional user with deadlines so there the trade-off can go with the (lighter) corded tools as the battery change/charge/size is more of a hassle than the cord at often a fixed workstation is.

Dunno where you get your info, but whenever I work with professionals they have a whole battery of chargers running all day to keep their cordless tools running.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2021, 04:06 AM »
Not so simple for a professional user with deadlines so there the trade-off can go with the (lighter) corded tools as the battery change/charge/size is more of a hassle than the cord at often a fixed workstation is.

Dunno where you get your info, but whenever I work with professionals they have a whole line up of chargers running all day to keep their cordless tools working.
Not so simple in the sense you PAY for going cordless as a Pro - by needing the pile of charges and batteries and caring for them as you mention.

This hassle with chargers means there are real advantages to corded tools in a fixed shop setting for professional use so is not as slam-dunk decision is a for a hobby user.

A hobbyist can get by with a single charger/batteries set for tens of tools and not be limited by it. So his economical calculus is different and corded tools have much less appeal even for shop use in the hobby world.

As Festool sells to both worlds, a cordless lineup is a must even if only (high end) hobbyists bought them. That is why we see some tools are no longer offered in corded versions even like the (Qua)drills or now the HK55 going away. They simply do not sell.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Online Alex

  • Posts: 7563
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2021, 04:28 AM »
Not so simple for a professional user with deadlines so there the trade-off can go with the (lighter) corded tools as the battery change/charge/size is more of a hassle than the cord at often a fixed workstation is.

Dunno where you get your info, but whenever I work with professionals they have a whole line up of chargers running all day to keep their cordless tools working.
Not so simple in the sense you PAY for going cordless as a Pro - by needing the pile of charges and batteries and caring for them as you mention.

This hassle with chargers means there are real advantages to corded tools in a fixed shop setting for professional use so is not as slam-dunk decision is a for a hobby user.

A hobbyist can get by with a single charger/batteries set for tens of tools and not be limited by it. So his economical calculus is different and corded tools have much less appeal even for shop use in the hobby world.

As Festool sells to both worlds, a cordless lineup is a must even if only (high end) hobbyists bought them. That is why we see some tools are no longer offered in corded versions even like the (Qua)drills or now the HK55 going away. They simply do not sell.

It is simple: unless a tool requires lots of power, professionals go for cordless.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2021, 06:06 AM »
It is simple: unless a tool requires lots of power, professionals go for cordless.
Nope.
Not in a general way. Maybe in some trades.

But even in carpentry, why would you get a TSC if it will be dedicated to a cross-cut station with a permanent Vac hose connection. You would not. Even if that station is not used all day and a TSC would do fine performance/bat life wise. it is not worth the battery maintenance and weight hassle.

Why would you get an air sander if you can have an electric one, or even a cordless one? Ergonomics/weight is more important there in some use cases making it worth it.

Why would you use a cordless driver if you have dedicated driver station with overhanging air drill designed to make it as light and as easy to use as possible. You would not.

A low-volume general carpenter, installer, custom furniture maker or a combination will go cordless as it makes sense in many cases even in a (small) shop. But the same guy will move to corded once he grows and starts dedicating tools to work stations, has employees etc.

On the other hand, the benefits of corded tools for a hobby user are overshadowed by the flexibility to setup anywhere. So is a slam dunk choice for most cases. With professional users it depends and there is IMO no universal answer.

In the same way air tools are still with us in the professional setting while in hobby use they are getting extinct fast.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 06:09 AM by mino »
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Christopher Fitch

  • Posts: 133
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2021, 01:20 PM »
Here's my 2 cents (more like 1 cent). I'm a serious DIYer and experienced novice furniture maker so my experiences are a bit different.

For the most part, I try to avoid cordless tools for a few reasons. Historically I've had poor experiences with cordless tools with one major exception. Many years ago, I picked up a Dewalt Cordless Drill - I liked it (and it was nice not having to plugin a drill) but within less than a year, the batteries showed signs of reduced performance. They would not hold a charge for long and the drill was clearly not receiving full voltage. Off to the store to pick up a new one and surprise! They no longer carried batteries that were compatible. I looked online and a new one cost almost the full price of the set I bought and was hard to find. A new set cost only a bit more. At that point, I was pretty annoyed - I really didn't think tossing a perfectly working drill for a new set was something I wanted to do. After doing some reading, I found this was apparently a pretty normal situation.

I got the batteries rebuilt and they were good for a couple of months but then they started showing poor performance signs again. At this point, I decided to go a different route so I picked up a Festool C12. Certainly pricey compared to main stream offerings but I really liked it. After about 6 months, the T15+3 came out and I switched to that (with Lithium batteries). The T15+3 has been just great. It's still working with over 10 years of use. I really got my money's worth out of it. I am beginning to notice that the batteries are slowly not working as well as they used to but it has not affected my work patterns. At the time I switched, there were not really any other cordless tools out there (for any brands) that could compare to their corded versions.  I have tried other cordless offerings over the years with a mix of success. I picked up a 12V Makita Impact Driver that has been awesome. I upgraded to an 18V version about 14 months ago. I also have a small 10.8V combo Makita drill/impact kit and it's worked fine too. I picked up a cordless Makita circular saw and it sucked and I pushed it off on an unsuspecting relative. I have a little cordless Black and Decker small jigsaw that I got for $20. It's quite under-powered but the battery has lasted for a while and it uses standard jigsaw blades.

Due to my experiences, I have really avoided cordless tools and it's worked out well for me. Other than certain situations, I really don't mind having corded tools. Any corded tool I have works great in the shop and the cords don't get in the way most of the time. That said, there are times where it would be nice to have cordless versions (usually when working outside or in certain parts of the house).

Right now I have a grand total of 8 cordless tools right now:
T18+3 (I just replaced my ten-year old T15+3 - hope the T18 lasts as well as the T15)
Makita 10.8 V Drill/Impact Kit (it's been decent for small jobs in the house)
Makita 18V Impact Driver (love this)
Makita 18V Impact Wrench
Milwaukee M12 Ratchet
Milwaukee M12 sander/polisher
B&D Mini cordless jigsaw (under powered - really it's a toy but there are certain spots where it's been handy).

And I have an AGC 18 on the way.

Most of my purchases are focused on replacing certain corded items or air tools for primary use. The cordless drills/impact drivers are obvious. I picked up the impact wrench and ratchet because I was tired of dragging out the compressor when doing car work. I picked the Makita because I can use the extra battery from the impact driver. I cannot imagine getting rid of my Makita impact wrench. It's REALLY nice and I use the heck out of it for car work. One of the best buys I ever made. The M12 Milwaukee ratchet is fine. I picked up the sander/polisher for doing certain car tasks. I don't use the ratchet much except in cases where I have to remove alot of fasteners.

If I had to reduce the list above to truly essential tools, it would end up:
- T18
- Makita Impact Driver
- Makita Impact Wrench

The rest I can easily live without.

I have considered the following:
- Cordless Makita compact router (using my 18V batteries)
- Some cordless jigsaw
- Cordless Circ. Saw

But I really don't see the point (for me). I'm happy with my TS 55 and I have a small corded Rigid for more carpentry focused work. I have a Bosch Colt and an old school Bosch 1587 that, while old, has served me very well. Also, I really don't like having more than a couple of battery platforms. You have to have chargers for each (and batteries). Plus different brands excel with different tools. I'm considering dumping my 10.8V Makitas to get down to three platforms.

I can see why shops would stick with corded tools - though I'm not a pro, I have a small separate shop and I see no real reason to go cordless. I have a dust collection all over and the cord (in a cord wrap) is not a big deal. With all this said, I can see the lure of cordless tools and things are certainly a great deal better in regards to battery performance and long-term compatibility.

Well, that's enough yapping about this....







Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 9659
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2021, 01:22 PM »



          It is simple ............................ it is both.

Whether it is hobby, DIY, or professional.  Depends on the user, work, situation.


Seth

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 697
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2021, 02:48 PM »
I suspect tool sales tell a far more accurate story of how many people use corded or cordless tools than this thread ever will.
There are people who simply seem unable to comprehend that other peoples tool usage is much different than their own.

Personally I'm a  site carpenter and as much as I can I use cordless tools. For me they're  more versatile and can still be used hooked upto an extractor as well as outside on a formwork job or up a scaffold without faffing about with cables.
Every one of my workmates is slowly changing over to more cordless tools as our tools need replacing and that genie won't be going back in the bottle.
De-Walt are now making a cordless class M extractor and although I have a Festool CTM25 Cleantec with all the bells and whistles it's not much use on a lot of sites because the access is bad or the power is intermittent at best.
That De-Walt cordless class M is looking like a better deal every day.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1365
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2021, 03:14 PM »
Well,  Seth's answer is the right one, but no one has fun with that.   [smile]

I would add a persons "history" a big factor.   Those who bought tools that ended up with abandon'd battery systems tend to be much more careful about going cordless.  If you had tools from the major players in their early system that are no more, it will always be in your mind.

I own a lot of battery tools, but they are also part of what is probably the biggest cordless system out there.  The cost of most the tools means if in the future it goes away, and someday even the biggest battery system will get replaced with something else, the price hit won't be that bad.  At the same time, that system has some tools that cost thousands of dollars (they just launched on that is over 9000 USD, but even more conventional stuff can be 2000-6000USD), you don't want to get stuck with that when the system goes away.

Things have been stable around 18V tool systems for a while.  But as  Cordless chop saws, table saws, routers, chainsaws, yard tools, etc become a thing, there will be a bigger system out there by companies, then folks are going to start to worry how long the stuff they have, has.

Ideal world, there would be a couple size batteries, all built to a universal standard, so most the concerns go away. But that isn't happening. You will have small players get together to pretend they are some standard battery system, but it's not going to change the reality that the big players will have their own setups.

Festools cordless stuff isn't pointless, but it will always suffer in that Festool will never have the full array of tools of a big red or big yellow. That will always make the buying decision more complicated for professionals or individuals no matter how they use them verses other brands. There is no one answer for what folks will do/want.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5265
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2021, 06:26 PM »
I love my cordless drill, but it spins at 1,375 rpm (no load) and probably 1,000 to 1,100 under load drilling 8mm holes. 

My old corded drill spins at 3,500 rpm and does not appear to slow down at all drilling 8mm holes.

I use my corded drill for dowel holes and for pocket holes.  Not only does it go faster (much faster if you are drilling for a lot of dowels), the holes are cleaner.  Invariably I have access to power when I use those tools and they tend to be used at a specific workstation. 

So don't throw out those 110 volt power tools.  They do some jobs better than the battery-powered tools.

I keep a Dewalt corded drill with my Kreg pocket hole kit. It spins at 2500 rpm which is a good match for the bit and at 8 amps it has enough power to keep up the speed, in softwood at least. But, unless I time trigger release bit extraction just right it’s a drag having to wait for the motor to come to a stop before I can put down the drill and reposition the work.

I keep using it because it starts up the vac but I’m about ready to move on to a big cordless drill that can stand upright on it’s battery pack. The Dewalt has a belt loop but I’m not putting that spinning bit anywhere near my belt. Maybe I can make a wire loop rig that can be clamped to the bench...

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1365
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2021, 06:31 PM »
The Dewalt has a belt loop but I’m not putting that spinning bit anywhere near my belt.

You and the ER doc can have a great story to tell.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 9659
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2021, 07:03 PM »
I love my cordless drill, but it spins at 1,375 rpm (no load) and probably 1,000 to 1,100 under load drilling 8mm holes. 

My old corded drill spins at 3,500 rpm and does not appear to slow down at all drilling 8mm holes.

I use my corded drill for dowel holes and for pocket holes.  Not only does it go faster (much faster if you are drilling for a lot of dowels), the holes are cleaner.  Invariably I have access to power when I use those tools and they tend to be used at a specific workstation. 

So don't throw out those 110 volt power tools.  They do some jobs better than the battery-powered tools.

I keep a Dewalt corded drill with my Kreg pocket hole kit. It spins at 2500 rpm which is a good match for the bit and at 8 amps it has enough power to keep up the speed, in softwood at least. But, unless I time trigger release bit extraction just right it’s a drag having to wait for the motor to come to a stop before I can put down the drill and reposition the work.

I keep using it because it starts up the vac but I’m about ready to move on to a big cordless drill that can stand upright on it’s battery pack. The Dewalt has a belt loop but I’m not putting that spinning bit anywhere near my belt. Maybe I can make a wire loop rig that can be clamped to the bench...


I am finding the PDC18 to be excellent on pocket holes. I just leave the vac turned on so that it isn't cycling on / off every 10 - 20 seconds between holes.

Seth

Seth

Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 663
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2021, 07:35 PM »
I have a Tsc-55 and a Hkc-55 and love them.
I am really thinking about getting a cordless sander also.
The cost is the only deterrent,at $600 usd for the whole kit.

 I have the cordless vecturo and a bunch of Makita cordless.

What I think they should have done,is make the sys-vac cordless,as was said earlier .

The only corded tools I have are a Kapex and air compressor ,
But I also have a Senco fusion 18g.
I would go all cordless if I can.
Charlie


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Imemiter

  • Posts: 204
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2021, 10:47 PM »

I am finding the PDC18 to be excellent on pocket holes. I just leave the vac turned on so that it isn't cycling on / off every 10 - 20 seconds between holes.

Seth

Seth

I use a Makita 18v and The Button, but I've wondered. Does the PDC trigger a vacuum with the BT battery? I know my TID doesn't, not that I'd want it to.
CSX T18+3 TID18 HKC55 OSC18 OS400 OF1010 LR32 DF700 RAS115 DTS400 ETC125 CTSys CTMidi CT-VA

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 600
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2021, 11:16 PM »
I have a Tsc-55 and a Hkc-55 and love them.
I am really thinking about getting a cordless sander also.
The cost is the only deterrent,at $600 usd for the whole kit.
 snip

The one advantage that the cordless sanders have going for them is that the large "set" kits include the battery-to-mains adapter that turns the sander into a corded unit if you're either working faster than the charger, forgot to charge, or just want a corded unit for the time being.

The "plus" are less expensive and still include batteries.  And then, of course, once you're into that battery system, you can get the bare tools. With the mains adapter set plus a second bare tool, you can have two sanders always ready to go and swap the mains adapter into the mix if you need to toss a battery into the charger (or keep one tool plugged in and the other swapping batteries, or...).

I wanted to get into the cordless sanders and kept my eyes on Recon, but all that came up was the Kits.  I patiently held out for the RTSC-400 Set just to get the mains adapter.  Took a while for a Set to show up instead of a Kit, but I had time on my side.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 11:25 AM by squall_line »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2021, 05:30 AM »

I am finding the PDC18 to be excellent on pocket holes. I just leave the vac turned on so that it isn't cycling on / off every 10 - 20 seconds between holes.

Seth

Seth

I use a Makita 18v and The Button, but I've wondered. Does the PDC trigger a vacuum with the BT battery? I know my TID doesn't, not that I'd want it to.
It does, but there is a "custom drill driver mode" used so the pairing works differently than with "normal" tools.

My DRC will activate the vac only if I put a battery in the DRC and, before using the drill, initiate a new pairing. After that the vac will be auto-started with the DRC.

Otherwise the DRC will ignore a pre-paired battery and will also not accept pairing if the drill was used prior to the pairing.

There is another special feature when using the paired DRC/PDC with a vac - the DCR will "keep telling" the battery it is "active" about 10 seconds after you stopped drilling. So the vac keeps running that time + the normal 5-second cool down period. This is meant so you have enough time for a drilling location cleanup if you were on a ladder etc. Works a treat!

Both of these aspects I needed to self-discover as first assumed "the battery is broken" when a paired pack did not want to start the vac when put in the DRC. Another of the fabulous things Festool did they utterly fail to market/explain.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 05:32 AM by mino »
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2054
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2021, 10:09 AM »
For sure, Seth is right . . .What a hobbyist or professional buys is based on his usage, experience, and needs. I've never been a professional, but am a woodworker who builds a variety of shop furniture, furniture for my house, cabinets when needed, turnings on my lathe, and sometimes just things which interest me. My whole shop grew up around corded tools, mostly because cordless tools weren't really available that much when I became a woodworker. So, my experience is with corded tools. Tools like a reciprocating saw (which I don't use much) and a drill/driver, cordless is easier to use and there are a lot of economical choices. With most everything else, I have ready power in my shop and really don't need the cordless tools. So, my purchases and usage are really based on my history, needs, and the fact I have power I might not have access to on the job. People buy and use whatever works for them.
Randy

Offline Imemiter

  • Posts: 204
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2021, 11:28 AM »
It does, but there is a "custom drill driver mode" used so the pairing works differently than with "normal" tools.

...

Thank you Mino! I'd searched around for an explanation. That extra 10 sec seems like a feature they'd want to shout from the rooftops. 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 08:09 AM by Imemiter »
CSX T18+3 TID18 HKC55 OSC18 OS400 OF1010 LR32 DF700 RAS115 DTS400 ETC125 CTSys CTMidi CT-VA

Offline PreferrablyWood

  • Posts: 968
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2021, 04:44 PM »
While I still don't have a functioning crystal ball, ;)  and maybe there will be a cordless Festool dust extractor in future, my personal opinion is that Festool was smarter to bring the SYS-Powerstation which can power both a dust extractor and tool for a whole working day. Or let you charge plenty of batteries on one charge.


I agree those "power stations" not just Festool are going to be big.  Having 1-2 of those you charge up at night verses remembering to pop 10-30 batteries all in their chargers when you get home for the night is a big change.  The battery powered tools are still going to be nice for the reasons folks mention.  But having one giant battery you can use for all your tools and not just Festool stuff will be a big shift.  Being able to run stuff that doesn't come in battery versions too.  So much other stuff you can use them for outside of tools too.

It's way to easy with cordless to forget to pop them in their chargers while your working and before you know if, you got 5 batteries, all are dead, or they have some juice but can't muster for a high power draw task.

I too have missed a heartbeat or two over the prospect of the powerstation. I take care of buildings stairwells and surrounding areas have very long runs to plugs so I lug lots of heavy cords around often. The powerstation price is now up on the sites here in Scandinavia and after getting over the first shock of price I'm already making scheme as to how a scrape together the funds for it. Also as an emergency power supply it could be a very hand thing to have...
TS 55 R EBQ, Vecturo OSC, BHC SDS, RO 150, 850 HL E Planer, MFS 400x2, MFS extensions MFS VB 700 x 1 MFS VB 1000 x 2 . CMS GE, OF 2200, CMS OF+ CMS TS 75 insert modules. SYS-MFT Fixing-Set, 
Festool 18V HKC 55, TI 15, CXS 2.6 Ah version, RO 90 DX, PDC 18/4 plus   TS 75 EBQ, PSC 420, OF 1010, RS 300 EQ, CTL Midi, MFT 3

Offline Havwoods Accessories Ltd

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 105
  • Havwoods Accessories Ltd - FESTOOL UK DEALER
    • Our Ecommerce website
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2021, 04:20 AM »
I suspect tool sales tell a far more accurate story of how many people use corded or cordless tools than this thread ever will.
There are people who simply seem unable to comprehend that other peoples tool usage is much different than their own.

Personally I'm a  site carpenter and as much as I can I use cordless tools. For me they're  more versatile and can still be used hooked upto an extractor as well as outside on a formwork job or up a scaffold without faffing about with cables.
Every one of my workmates is slowly changing over to more cordless tools as our tools need replacing and that genie won't be going back in the bottle.
De-Walt are now making a cordless class M extractor and although I have a Festool CTM25 Cleantec with all the bells and whistles it's not much use on a lot of sites because the access is bad or the power is intermittent at best.
That De-Walt cordless class M is looking like a better deal every day.
Interesting thread...as a dealer i can confirm cordless tools are have pretty much taken over their corded equivalents where there is an option.
I did chuckle about a corded drill  [wink]...not sure I've ever seen one in 20 years let alone sold one apart from SDS.
I suspect there may be some Country specific arguments to think of..in the UK we obviously have the 110V Site supply issue which of course a cordless tool avoids the issue..most contractors i speak to and work with only use cordless tools unless there's no version but that's changing rapidly apart from a few select tools.
 The new Brushless TSC55K is arguably now a superior machine than the Corded version from our initial testing and usage.

Hope this helps. :)
__________________________________________
Havwoods Accessories Ltd
FESTOOL Dealer, Preston UK
01772 696600
www.havwoodsaccessories.com

Offline yetihunter

  • Posts: 767
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2021, 12:02 AM »
I've been looking into buying into festool for awhile (currently bosch user) and I've seen festool do cordless tools which should always be used with dust extraction..  saws, sanders etc.

so seeing has festool has the proprietary "Plug it" connection so the vacuum hose and cable can be as one.. what exactly is the point in a cordless tool from festool? makes sense with other brands that don't have this feature (plug it) as you have to change cables.

thoughts? I'm I missing something? or are the cordless festools indeed pointless? [blink]

So we're on the same page: the newest batteries start the newest vacs, so you don't need a cord to start it (I don't use any of that, I just use a bluetooth button). 

If you need cordless, you fall under two categories:

1.) Dealing with minimal residential power or a generator and want to use as little mains equipment as possible (cordless table and miter saws are huge for that reason).
2.) You really need to access tricky locations, in which case, you probably aren't carrying dust extractors or hoses with you.

Now, when it's time to go indoors or off the roof or whatever, do you want to go and buy the same tool but corded?  No, you don't.  So, Festool and other manufacturers have made it so that their cordless tools can commit to the same health and safety stuff as their corded counterparts.

The one part you're missing is that a dust bag does a half decent job.   

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 156
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2021, 02:16 AM »
The one part you're missing is that a dust bag does a half decent job.
Absolutely true. I think a lot of people don't realize that the cordless sanders and track saw, when used correctly, can gather the majority of dust themselves. (Festool claims 90% dust collection on the TSC 55 with just the bag, for example, and I've never had any reason to doubt it.) The main downside is that the little attachment bags fill up very quickly: if you're doing longer sanding or cutting sessions, dealing with the attached hose tends to be the lesser annoyance compared to emptying the dust bag repeatedly.

Online notenoughcash

  • Posts: 134
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2021, 04:20 AM »
i dont do a huge amount of site work, compared to some people, but practilcy all my tools are corldess, i just prefer the conveniance of not having to plug in a cord.  even my scms is cordless.  that is usefull.  e.g. next week i am making some gates for a mate, and they are at the end of a track, with the nearest power 50m away.  easy to deal with when cordless.  i have a feeling my tsc and psc will be very usefull. [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down
PSC 420 EB, TSC 55 REB, CTL MIDI I

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 1051
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2021, 01:14 PM »
The new style 'bags' on the sanders are definitely better than the paper variants of 10 years ago. Mine tended to go leaking at the folds... I bought a 2nd CTL.

Online notenoughcash

  • Posts: 134
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2021, 06:03 AM »
i havent used a festool sander, but i recently got a erbauer sander, and the dc with the box is brilliant, its basically a mini cyclone.
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down
PSC 420 EB, TSC 55 REB, CTL MIDI I

Offline bidn

  • Posts: 17
  • hobbyist
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #73 on: May 25, 2021, 07:28 AM »
A lot of interesting answers here. Much of this discussion would be pointless if companies would systematically offer  battery-format AC to DC adapters. Black & Decker patents date from around 1990, having long expired. Yet such converters are way too rare, I know only Hikoki ( Metabo HPT in the USA) 36V adapter, and the one by Festool for their cordless sander (not helpful because deviating from their very own battery standard...).

BTW I too have asked Festool to produce a battery-operated, T-Loc systainer sized vac.
BS 75 set, HKC 55 Li EB+ SCA, TS 75 EBQ+, TSC 55 K, Erika 85 Ec + options, KS 120 EB, OF 1400 EBQ+, OF 1010 EBQ+,  Carvex  PSC 420+, ZH-SYS-PS-420, P1 cc, RO 90 DX FEQ+, RO 150 FEQ+, 2 x Deros 5650cv, Deos Delta 663CV, CTL 22 E SG, CTL 26 E, PDC 18/4 set XL, Ti 18+3, C15 Li 4,2 Set, Sys 1 CE-Sort, many Milwaukee and a few Metabo 18V.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2021, 08:50 AM »
A lot of interesting answers here. Much of this discussion would be pointless if companies would systematically offer  battery-format AC to DC adapters. Black & Decker patents date from around 1990, having long expired. Yet such converters are way too rare, I know only Hikoki ( Metabo HPT in the USA) 36V adapter, and the one by Festool for their cordless sander (not helpful because deviating from their very own battery standard...).

BTW I too have asked Festool to produce a battery-operated, T-Loc systainer sized vac.
Making an adapter that would have sufficient power /modern 10-cell packs can provide burst power up to 1000 W and more/ and would also be practical - not too bulky, not too heavy, not too expensive - is not easy. If possible at all.

There are a few who would pay $200 or $300 for a "power brick" were it to use cutting edge tech to be compact-enough.

That is likely while HPT could make the 36V adapter but did not attempt to make an 18V one. The lower the output voltage, the higher the current, the stronger the electronics and the more heat is generated from the conversion.

Having "adapter" which will tend to overheat in continuous use - the whole purpose of having it - makes little sense. It can be done these days, but would be very expensive reducing the market for it very much. Doubly so in the Festool case where they not a mass maker AND have the Plug-It which makes a lot of the hassle with cords go away.

I think the small sander adapter was feasible simply because of the low peak power requirements of the sanders. So they can make one cost-effectively at a comparable size and weight to a battery pack. Yet I see it as mostly a hobby tool for who wants to avoid having multiple tools. Pros still go with the corded version (in addition to a cordless one) as it is lighter by avoiding the voltage double-conversion contraption.

I would even argue that for a hobby user it does not make -much- economical sense in many cases. The adapter goes for €100 while the sander can be had for €250 or so. You get a better tool when corded to boot and have two sanders so do to not have to swap papers all the time.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2654
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2021, 09:32 AM »
I have the Metabo HPT 36/18 table saw.  The first time I used it I was ripping 10' 2x6 to make purlins using the batteries I had.  When I bought min Metabo was offering a free battery and a free adaptor.  Since I only had four batteries, I tried using the adaptor.  I did not have main power in my new shop and still am using four 25'- 10ga and a 50' 12 ga SJO extension cords. Anyway, I tried using my Honda 2200, rated at 13 amp running. It immediately popped the over load, as it did when I was trying to use my 15 amp Milwaukee Sawzall when cutting fence posts.  So, it was time to look at the electrical specs...20 amp...WOW, gonna need a bigger Honda.  Bought more batteries instead.  Saw is a great tool, biggest table, dado capable, great gear driven fence that is easily adjusted.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2021, 10:41 AM »
Bigger generator will likely not help much unless you get a really huge one.

Using a smaller generator to charge packs is actually a pretty efficient way. The generator can work at a consistent load and then be turned off. Much better than running corded tools off of a big generator with the generator running most of the time in no-load  mode.

A motor in the saw is likely not having any soft-start electronics as the batteries behavior under load will limit the peak power naturally.

When not limited, you can easily see 10 kW momentary peaks when starting a strong motor. As long as the adapter was able to handle it, it would pull over 20A on peak loads easily form the mains.

However a generator cannot handle peaks even though the wiring can bear them. Its max output is limited by the converter electronics which is rarely overbuilt to handle high peak loads. Anyway, you usually do not have a big-enough flywheel to avoid halting the engine if the load was too high.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline bidn

  • Posts: 17
  • hobbyist
Re: festool cordless tools pointless?
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2021, 04:24 PM »
Thank you for your very interesting answers, mino!
BS 75 set, HKC 55 Li EB+ SCA, TS 75 EBQ+, TSC 55 K, Erika 85 Ec + options, KS 120 EB, OF 1400 EBQ+, OF 1010 EBQ+,  Carvex  PSC 420+, ZH-SYS-PS-420, P1 cc, RO 90 DX FEQ+, RO 150 FEQ+, 2 x Deros 5650cv, Deos Delta 663CV, CTL 22 E SG, CTL 26 E, PDC 18/4 set XL, Ti 18+3, C15 Li 4,2 Set, Sys 1 CE-Sort, many Milwaukee and a few Metabo 18V.