Author Topic: Cordless blades flexing/warping.  (Read 1404 times)

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Offline Lbob131

  • Posts: 515
Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« on: May 07, 2021, 12:37 PM »
Have  used  my  cordless  Metabo circular saw with  the  festool  rail in  the  past  to  cut  plywood  and the  results  were    abysmal.  To say  the least.
Blade  flexing  all  over  the place.
Guy  on  site  all  week  with a  Dewalt cordless  track  saw  cutting  plywood  and   most  sheets  were  left  with  curve   in  the  cut.

Fortuanetly  my  corded  TS55  was  on hand   which  left  a  perfect  cut.
 He  was  baffled   as to  how  his  saw  was  making  bad  cuts.  I even  adjusted   the  rollers  to  take  up  the slack  on  the  rail  for  him.
Didn't  make the slightest  bit  of  difference.

Then it dawned  on me  only  today  what  the real problem  is.

Is  their  any  point  to  cordless   track  saws  with  these   super  thin   blades  when   they  perform  so badly?
Perhaps  Mafell  has  cracked  this  issue?
How  are  Festool   cordless  track  saws  performing  I  wonder?






« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 12:49 PM by Lbob131 »

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Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5224
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2021, 01:21 PM »
With thin blades toe adjustment (making the blade parallel to the track) is even more important.

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 739
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2021, 01:57 PM »
Strange - I've been using saws on the rail with thin kerf blades for over 20 years and have never noticed a curve to my cut. I can get non-square cut if I let the blade get dull. Think there may be an issue with sloppy bearings in the saws that had issues?

Offline Lbob131

  • Posts: 515
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2021, 05:15 AM »
Nothing  to  do  with sloppy bearings.
Thin kerf blades  are  the problem.

I expect  if  you   are  not   having  issues   then  you   don't  cut  a lot  of plywood  or precision  accuracy   is   not   what you require.

We  sliced  up  2400kg  of  8 x 4   12mm  plywood  this  week  and  barely a  sheet  ended   up straight   from  the dewalt.
Thats   140  sheets.
And  another  400  sheets  in  the workshop  ready  for  processing  in  the next  few  weeks.

The  guy  was  hailing   the   De walt  saw  and  the De walt  range  in general  as  the best   woodworking   power tools  in  the business. 
We   were  having a  good  ole  laugh  all week.
Especially  as  I had  to  straighten  out his  cuts   until  he  finally gave  up  and  had  to use   the 
 corded  Festool.

The  guy was  checking  his  rail  against  mine  for  straightness.
He  was  blaming   the  plywood  not  laying  flat  at  one  stage.
All  week  he  was  scratching  his  head.

Then  it  dawned  on  me  only  yesterday  morning.
As  I had  previously  had  the same  problem   with a metabo  fitted  with a thin  blade.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 06:45 AM by Lbob131 »

Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 291
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2021, 07:50 AM »
That hasn’t been my experience, my track saw is an HK-55, which uses 1.8 mm kerf blades, it has no problem cutting a strip 1/16” wide off the edge of a board, or straight cuts in general.

You might try repositioning the blade on the arbor, or check the other “tuning” factors mentioned.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8554
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2021, 09:43 AM »
I've not had any issues using a TS 55, TSC 55, HKC 55 and a MT 55 cutting 18 mm maple ply and ripping 4/4 & 5/4 solid maple boards.

The TS & TSC both use 2.2 mm wide kerf blades so even though the TSC is cordless, the blade performs as well as the corded version.

The HKC & MT 55 both use 1.8 mm wide kerf blades, one from Festool and one from Mafell. No issues at all with either blade/saw.

Have you tried clamping the rail at both ends to see if that's part of the issue?

With the amount of wood you're cutting maybe some sawdust is accumulating under the rail strips and the rails can move slightly if not clamped down. I know first hand that that's an issue with Mafell rails.  [sad]

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 689
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2021, 10:44 AM »
Ive done cuts on 90mm square oak beams using my HKC and crosscut rail,  50mm deep cut one way then mark round with a square and then a 50mm deep cut from the other side to cut all the way through.
Pretty much spot on every time I did them which shows the cut is nice and straight.
Thats using a thin (1.8mm) blade.

If you're getting a measurable slant on a sheet of ply I suspect the saw has other issues.

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 759
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2021, 12:32 PM »
Thin kerf blades are not the problem.

I've been using a Mafell MT-55 for years now using the 1.8mm blades Mafell supplies and never had an issue with the blades flexing/warping. This includes using the MT-55 for glue-line ripping 2"+ thick Hard Maple, dead-straight. Also producing cabinets (mostly veneered baltic birch), never had an issue.

Some data points not supplied by the OP are:
-- Were the blades sharp?
-- What brand blades?
-- Feed rate?
-- Appropriate blades being used for the task at hand?
-- Which Metabo saw are you using? One of the cordless Metabo saws has been discussed extensively on the Mafell forum, I haven't read the entire conversation but my memory is that the saw being discussed is more of a framing saw, and did not perform well on the track.

I'd suggest buying a fresh batch of blades and see if they perform any better. If the issue persists, the machine is not properly dialed-in (not just snugged to the track), the machine is not suited for the work being asked, or it's user error, or some combination of the above...
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Offline Lbob131

  • Posts: 515
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2021, 01:18 PM »
Thin kerf  blades   are the problem..

My corded  Festool  TS55  blade  has a  cutting  width (kerf)  of  2.2mm.
The  blade  width  is  1.7mm.

My Metabo  KS18 LTX 57  is using a Trend  blade  with  a  cutting  width  of  1.7mm.
And  a blade   width  of  1.1mm.
That  is  clearly  the problem.

I don't know  the blade widths  of  my  work colleagues  Dewalt saw  but  I expect  its  similar   to  my  Metabo.

Festool  sell  the   Wood Universal blade  suitable  for  the TSC (2055551)  witha  cutting  width  of  1.8mm (kerf)  and  blade  width  of  1.2mm.

The  496302  is  2.2mm  cutting width. (kerf)
Blade  width  is  not specified.

Unless  the  blade   width  (not  kerf)  is   1.7mm  then  cordless  is  a non  starter  IMO.





Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5224
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2021, 01:19 PM »
A thin blade per se is not the problem, but the condition of the blade and the saw are more critical since the blade can flex if the teeth on one side are not as sharp or if the toe is not set correctly. Even the 2.2mm kerf blades flex some when the toe is off or the teeth are chipped on one side.

A good sharp thin blade tracking correctly is a significant benefit to a cordless saw.

It’s not too surprising that lower quality saws might have issues running thin blades since they probably don’t take time at the factory to get the toe adjustment perfect and they probably include lower quality blades.

Offline Lbob131

  • Posts: 515
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2021, 05:29 PM »
I have  no  issues   with  my  20  year  old   Festool  TS55  plunge  saw  at  all.

My  Metabo  and  my  work colleagues  De Walt  have  no  easy adjustment   for  toe  in  or  out.
I expect  that  is  factory  set.
The  kerfs  are  thin,  the  blades   are  thinner  still  and  that  is  the  problem.
And  with  constant non  stop sawing,   the blade  warming  causes  even  more  blade  warping  issues  on   these  super  thin blades.

I  have  seen  nothing  on  the  UK  Festool  website   showing  that  1.7mm  blade  thickness (not kerf)  are  available   for  cordless  festool plunge  saws.

On  the  UK  website..https://www.festool.co.uk/accessory/496301---160x2,2x20-pw12#Overview

No  "blade   width"  specification  is  given   for saw  blades  with "cutting  widths"  of  2.2mm.
Am I  to assume  it  is  1.7mm?
The  same  as  my  current  TS55  blade?

On  the  issue  of feed  rate.  With  my  ts55,   I'd  say   about 3  seconds   to  cross  1.3m x 12mm thick plywood.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 05:57 PM by Lbob131 »

Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 759
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2021, 05:48 PM »
I have  no  issues   with  my  20  year  old   Festool  TS55  plunge  saw  at  all.

My  Metabo  and  my  work colleagues  De Walt  have  no  easy adjustment   for  toe  in  or  out.
The  kerfs  are  thin,  the  blades   are  thinner  still  and  that  is  the  problem.
And  with  constant non  stop sawing,   the blade  warming  causes  even  more  blade  warping  issues  on   these  super  thin blades.

I  have  seen  nothing  on  the  UK  Festool  website   showing  that  1.7mm  blade  thickness (not kerf)  are  available   for  cordless  festool plunge  saws.

Your personal experience does not constitute a global fact. A more accurate statement would be "I am experiencing problems with the thin blades I'm using", as it reflects your experience. The fact of the matter is, there are multitudes of professional tradespeople putting out amazing work using 1.8mm blades, so your assertion that "thin kerf blades are the problem" is, on its face, obviously false.
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Offline Lbob131

  • Posts: 515
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2021, 06:00 PM »
I have  no  issues   with  my  20  year  old   Festool  TS55  plunge  saw  at  all.

My  Metabo  and  my  work colleagues  De Walt  have  no  easy adjustment   for  toe  in  or  out.
The  kerfs  are  thin,  the  blades   are  thinner  still  and  that  is  the  problem.
And  with  constant non  stop sawing,   the blade  warming  causes  even  more  blade  warping  issues  on   these  super  thin blades.

I  have  seen  nothing  on  the  UK  Festool  website   showing  that  1.7mm  blade  thickness (not kerf)  are  available   for  cordless  festool plunge  saws.

Your personal experience does not constitute a global fact. A more accurate statement would be "I am experiencing problems with the thin blades I'm using", as it reflects your experience. The fact of the matter is, there are multitudes of professional tradespeople putting out amazing work using 1.8mm blades, so your assertion that "thin kerf blades are the problem" is, on its face, obviously false.

I can  do  amazing  work   with  thin  kerf blades  also.  But at a snails  pace.
So my assertion  is  correct  imo.
Try   slicing    150  12mm  sheets  of   plywood  a day  and  cordless   saws   with  their   thin  blades  are  absolute  rubbish.
Snails  pace  and  building  sites   are  not  compatible.
Now  if a  1.7mm  (blade  thickness)  can  be  fitted,  then it might  be   a whole  different  story.
Yes  thats  my experience  and  my  work colleague's  experience  also. As  he  found  out  this  week.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 06:08 PM by Lbob131 »

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 986
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2021, 06:25 PM »
^400mm a second sounds fast. My experience with thin kerf Makita circular saw goes back to 2008. I’ve never experienced bad cuts except when pushing to hard and fast. And I almost never do that, so my cuts have been fine even with just a clamped edge to ride the saw along.

What every woodworker and carpenter have told me about getting nice quality cuts whether it’s with a manual saw or a motorised one: “Never push the saw, let the saw do the job!” “Want to go fast as possible? Get the handsaw or blade sharpened to the max, and/or buy a larger more powerful motorised saw”

At least half your speed and see what that gets you.
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Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 495
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2021, 07:21 PM »

I can  do  amazing  work   with  thin  kerf blades  also.  But at a snails  pace.
So my assertion  is  correct  imo.
Try   slicing    150  12mm  sheets  of   plywood  a day  and  cordless   saws   with  their   thin  blades  are  absolute  rubbish.
Snails  pace  and  building  sites   are  not  compatible.
Now  if a  1.7mm  (blade  thickness)  can  be  fitted,  then it might  be   a whole  different  story.
Yes  thats  my experience  and  my  work colleague's  experience  also. As  he  found  out  this  week.

It's just my opinion, but 150 sheets a day seems like more than the intended use of a cordless saw in the first place, even at only one cut per sheet. That is corded tool territory and still pushing that pretty hard. That's just the saw itself, the blade is taking that too.
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Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 417
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2021, 10:53 AM »


“It's just my opinion, but 150 sheets a day seems like more than the intended use of a cordless saw in the first place, even at only one cut per sheet. “

^ This^

There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8554
Re: Cordless blades flexing/warping.
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2021, 12:38 PM »

Now  if a  1.7mm  (blade  thickness)  can  be  fitted,  then it might  be   a whole  different  story.


Unfortunately, that's not really the solution either. The saws designed to run thin kerf (1.8 mm kerf & 1.3 mm plate) blades were designed around the thin kerf blade specifically to give them additional power and extended battery run time. If you just throw a regular kerf blade on those saws, the cutting will be slower and the battery run time will be shorter.

For instance, the original Festool TSC 55 with a regular kerf (2.2 mm kerf & 1.7 mm plate) blade when compared to the new Festool TSC 55 K version with the thin kerf blade, takes a longer time to cut and reduces the run time of the batteries. Thus, the reason Festool switched over to thin kerf blades for the new TSC. More power...more run time.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 09:11 AM by Cheese »