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Author Topic: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop  (Read 20912 times)

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Offline Tom Bainbridge

  • Posts: 1009
  • Limey Carpenter
VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« on: January 09, 2008, 05:18 PM »
its all ok having a festool owners group telling festool that their gear and their service is great


wrong.........  their service is diabolical and they treat their customers with total contempt 




the domino cross stop is a totally useless piece of junk. after six dominos its 2mm out (reading the tape)

i didnt believe it was a festool problem until id tried it a second time

then i put the vernier caliper on it, the stops are .3mm different left to right (hence 1.8mm out at sixth domino)





are festool interested, are they heck, they couldnt give a flying stuff





i talked to the area rep, to get the problem resolved. it took him 3 weeks and aparantly 4 emails before he got a single reply from germany

all they did was confirm it wasnt accurate and they are going to do nothing about it




by the way the rep was reminded not to tell me the tool is innacurate

how stupid do festool think their customers are. i know their machining is innacurate because my vernier caliper confirms what my tape says
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

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Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7392
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2008, 05:37 PM »
Sorry to hear about your problem. I would bet if you call Festool's service dept. they will take care of you. I know others have had this issue too and one member sent his in to be work on and it came back working. Good luck.

Offline Eli

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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 05:43 PM »
So you're saying the sixth domino is 2mm (1.8mm) off, but the actual inaccuracy is only a 1/3 of a mm?  ::)

Dude, you seriously need to start just using pencil marks. Either that, or switch to the medium setting. If you're making panels, it shouldn't make that much of a difference. Are you trying to build a space shuttle or glue up a panel or two?  ;)

There's more variation with humidity than you're complaining about. OMG! Wood moves. :o

"Totally useless piece of junk" is not what you meant to say. "Not as accurate as I would have liked" is more appropriate.

Or maybe, "I'm switching back to a super, super accurate biscuit machine" :D (I forget, which one comes with cross stops?)

I wouldn't have given a flying stuff either, you come off sounding like a kook, not a rational person. You and that English guy that returned 10 kapex should start your own Festool haters club. ;D ;D ;D

I just have to quote Patrick Leach, supertool.com, 'cause he says it way better than I ever could:

" If you're the kind of person who puts a straightedge to the sole
of a #40, to check for flatness, or who tosses a plane on a scale
to weigh it against what it states in the Stanley catalogues, you'll
need to take your business elsewhere. .......
You guys know who you are, and it's best for both of us
that our paths don't cross."

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 05:45 PM by Eli »
Do nothing, stay ahead.

Offline Tom Bainbridge

  • Posts: 1009
  • Limey Carpenter
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2008, 06:19 PM »
eli your reading and math skills need some improvement

they sell it as a stop (not a guessing stick with a incremental error of .3mm)

a customer service policy of ignoring reps and instructing them not to release imformation to customers

that isnt good
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Christian Oltzscher

  • Festool Employee.
  • Posts: 157
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2008, 06:31 PM »
Dirtydeeds,

Sorry to hear about your experience.

It is the first time I hear about a Festool service policy "of ignoring reps and instructing them not to release information
to customers".

I sent you a PM. We will make this right.

Christian

Offline Rob McGilp

  • Posts: 430
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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2008, 06:34 PM »
Hi Dirtydeeds, good to see you finally gained access to this forum.
I and some others have known about this for a while. You need to start with a single width cut as a reference then move to a double width cut and finally a 3 width cut, then reset to another reference point and so on, when mortiseing long panels. For shorter panels, just using the "pencil mark method" works just fine for me. Seems that at the end of the day, you are still getting a superior joint in less tme, so maybe that's the way to look at it. I have to say that here in Oz, I couldn't be happier with the Festool service I receive. Maybe its just the UK or maybe just U.

Regards,

Rob

Offline Eli

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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2008, 06:57 PM »
Wow, that's evidence of some pretty crappy service isn't it?

Since we're giving communication advice, your punctuation skills need working on. The beginning of a sentence and proper names are capitalized. The end of a sentence gets a period.
Do nothing, stay ahead.

Offline Lou Miller

  • Posts: 480
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    • Some of my work
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 07:53 PM »
So you're saying the sixth domino is 2mm (1.8mm) off, but the actual inaccuracy is only a 1/3 of a mm?  ::)

Dude, you seriously need to start just using pencil marks. Either that, or switch to the medium setting. If you're making panels, it shouldn't make that much of a difference. Are you trying to build a space shuttle or glue up a panel or two?  ;)

There's more variation with humidity than you're complaining about. OMG! Wood moves. :o

"Totally useless piece of junk" is not what you meant to say. "Not as accurate as I would have liked" is more appropriate.

Or maybe, "I'm switching back to a super, super accurate biscuit machine" :D (I forget, which one comes with cross stops?)

I wouldn't have given a flying stuff either, you come off sounding like a kook, not a rational person. You and that English guy that returned 10 kapex should start your own Festool haters club. ;D ;D ;D

I just have to quote Patrick Leach, supertool.com, 'cause he says it way better than I ever could:

" If you're the kind of person who puts a straightedge to the sole
of a #40, to check for flatness, or who tosses a plane on a scale
to weigh it against what it states in the Stanley catalogues, you'll
need to take your business elsewhere. .......
You guys know who you are, and it's best for both of us
that our paths don't cross."



Eli,

No offense or anything, but this guy does have a valid point. He's also not the first person to complain about the exact same issue either. It's an expensive tool. One of the reasons for that expense is supposed to be that you get a flawless tool. His isn't, no way around that. Plus it sounds like he's getting the run around from a Festool rep over it. I'd be pretty aggravated if I were him. Fortunately, Christian is now involved. I'm sure he'll make everything right, just as he's done in the past here.

I don't use my cross stops so I have no idea if they are accurate or not. Maybe I should check them out...

Offline Bob Marino

  • Posts: 3253
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2008, 08:15 PM »
So you're saying the sixth domino is 2mm (1.8mm) off, but the actual inaccuracy is only a 1/3 of a mm?  ::)

Dude, you seriously need to start just using pencil marks. Either that, or switch to the medium setting. If you're making panels, it shouldn't make that much of a difference. Are you trying to build a space shuttle or glue up a panel or two?  ;)

There's more variation with humidity than you're complaining about. OMG! Wood moves. :o

"Totally useless piece of junk" is not what you meant to say. "Not as accurate as I would have liked" is more appropriate.

Or maybe, "I'm switching back to a super, super accurate biscuit machine" :D (I forget, which one comes with cross stops?)

I wouldn't have given a flying stuff either, you come off sounding like a kook, not a rational person. You and that English guy that returned 10 kapex should start your own Festool haters club. ;D ;D ;D

I just have to quote Patrick Leach, supertool.com, 'cause he says it way better than I ever could:

" If you're the kind of person who puts a straightedge to the sole
of a #40, to check for flatness, or who tosses a plane on a scale
to weigh it against what it states in the Stanley catalogues, you'll
need to take your business elsewhere. .......
You guys know who you are, and it's best for both of us
that our paths don't cross."



Eli,

No offense or anything, but this guy does have a valid point. He's also not the first person to complain about the exact same issue either. It's an expensive tool. One of the reasons for that expense is supposed to be that you get a flawless tool. His isn't, no way around that. Plus it sounds like he's getting the run around from a Festool rep over it. I'd be pretty aggravated if I were him. Fortunately, Christian is now involved. I'm sure he'll make everything right, just as he's done in the past here.

I don't use my cross stops so I have no idea if they are accurate or not. Maybe I should check them out...

 Lou,

 I generally stay away from these types of posts, because of the tone,  but I wish "DIRTYDEEDS" would have stated that this is an issue with Festool UK and NOT Festool USA. Before realizing what was what here, one of my initial thoughts was "which Festool Rep/Mgr/Employee (USA) treated him so poorly"? Festool USA ain't perfect, but I know that the Mgrs/Employees/CEO of Festool USA  are dedicated to customer service. To have to read between the lines to find out which country he's referring to is a sticking point for me.
 Festool is not above criticism, but just take a look at the title of this thread. A lot of folks not reading further, would surmise that he got flipped the bird by someone here at Festool USA and that is not the case.

Bob
Former Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!

Offline Jesse Cloud

  • Posts: 1752
  • Festooling at the end of a dirt road in New Mexico
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2008, 08:25 PM »

Eli,

No offense or anything, but this guy does have a valid point. He's also not the first person to complain about the exact same issue either. It's an expensive tool. One of the reasons for that expense is supposed to be that you get a flawless tool. His isn't, no way around that. Plus it sounds like he's getting the run around from a Festool rep over it. I'd be pretty aggravated if I were him. Fortunately, Christian is now involved. I'm sure he'll make everything right, just as he's done in the past here.

I don't use my cross stops so I have no idea if they are accurate or not. Maybe I should check them out...

Interesting point Lou.  I don't use the cross stops either.

I'm certainly not as skilled as you and Eli, but personally it seems the idea of cross stops have an inherent weakness.  If any error is cumulative, it will build up after several uses, regardless of how small it is.  1/3 mm is awfully small, with my aging eyes, I couldn't even see it.  One thing I do know is to avoid cumulative error situations.  For instance, instead of making a mark, then measuring from that mark to make the next mark, and so on, I make a story stick so I am always marking from the same measurement.

I think the cumulative error issue is exactly why there is a medium and loose fit setting on the domino, I don't need them when I use pencil marks.

Offline bruegf

  • Posts: 805
  • Michigan
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 08:28 PM »
I've got to agree.  Dirtydeed's tone sounds more like bashing than an attempt to actually get a problem resolved.  My experience is that its far easier to get positive result w/ a positive dialog.

Personally I give Christian and Festool credit for jumping in on this rather than blowing him off as a crackpot.

That said, dust collection, quality, and accuracy are the main reasons I'm willing to pay Festool's prices.  I too, expect things to be "right" at these prices.

Fred
Fred

Offline Tom Bainbridge

  • Posts: 1009
  • Limey Carpenter
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2008, 08:47 PM »
bob marino is perfectly correct, this is a problem with the UK not the USA or any US dealer

christian o (ceo festool USA) has contacted me by pm and he is helping me even though im a UK customer

you guys in the USA are very lucky to have a festool ceo who sees customer service as important to his bottom line.

this is simply not the case in the UK

this is the first problem ive had with any festool kit (its an accessory for goodness sake) and the UK and Germany dont want to know




bruegf after being very nice for a number of weeks, trying to get things resolved you tend to get a tad ticked off when german headquarters effectivly says through a rep "dont tell him it isnt accurate"
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7392
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 08:58 PM »
   Any of you guys remember watching Festool's videos on the Domino before it came out last year? In almost every video they showed that only the first mortise should be cut with the narrow setting and subsequent mortises should be with clearance to account for minor positioning inaccuracies, remember? Test drive video index.

Offline Eli

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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2008, 09:02 PM »
Tone is everything.
I get rubbed the wrong way when someone jumps in from literally nowhere with a rant followed by an insult. Since it is a known issue, a little bit of backgrounding would have given the answer he wanted.

I won't take anyone seriously who blazes in about how messed up something is with no preliminary polite request for help. Or even a request for discussion. People like this are also setting their sights a bit high IMO. I expect things to be right as well and general consensus is that they usually are or it gets fixed. Flawless is just too much to expect. There's no such thing as flawless.

Welcome to the forum DD. Maybe you won't let an issue go so long next time with no resolution. We can help you, whether it's you or the tool. Sorry if I was insulting to you, but you did bring the attitude first. Hope it works out for you.


PS-far from skilled Jesse, but thanks anyway.
Do nothing, stay ahead.

Offline Tom Bainbridge

  • Posts: 1009
  • Limey Carpenter
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2008, 09:20 PM »
eli

you forgot to say i cant spell and my grammer aint good
Bromley, Kent. UK

aka dirtydeeds

Offline Eli

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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 09:41 PM »
It is spelled grammar. I didn't want to make you feel more stupider.  ;D


PS-have you met Larry? I think you guys would really hit it off.
Do nothing, stay ahead.

Offline brandon.nickel

  • Posts: 241
  • Currently Peoria, IL - Eventually back to CO
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2008, 09:50 PM »
 :D  Ahh, you guys crack me up...  Please, please someone bring up EZ Smart.  My laughing fit is starting to wear off...
TS55, MFT1080, Domino, OF1400, LR32, RO150E, DTS400, Trion, CT33

Offline Eiji Fuller

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1087
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2008, 10:00 PM »
Christian,

Hey take care of my cross stops too!

Offline Rob McGilp

  • Posts: 430
  • Curmudgeon
    • Damn Fine Furniture
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2008, 09:35 PM »
  Any of you guys remember watching Festool's videos on the Domino before it came out last year? In almost every video they showed that only the first mortise should be cut with the narrow setting and subsequent mortises should be with clearance to account for minor positioning inaccuracies, remember? Test drive video index.

Thanks, Brice,
As I said, we worked that out a while ago.

I also have to agree with Eli, people who use their first posts to do nothing but "bag" a tool in their first posts leave me in feeling that they are not really interested in anything but venting their spleen. It's been my experience that such people get very little help or respect from other members of the forum in question.

Regards,

Rob

Offline Eli

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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2008, 09:56 PM »
I wish I had your gift of brevity ;D
Do nothing, stay ahead.

Offline Dan Clermont

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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2008, 10:14 PM »
Tis too bad the first post is a negative post and sure wish you would have found this forum earlier.

I don't know where I read it or why it sticks in my mind but somewhere it was mentioned to only use the narrow setting for registration purposes and use a wider setting.

Say what you want about lax tolerances but try pulling a Domino out of a mortise. YOu can't do that with a biscuit or any other mortising type machine. The tolerances are tight.... maybe too tight  ;)

I love my Domino and can't wait to get my CT-22 back so I can once again use it.

Dan Clermont
LARGEST FESTOOL SELECTION IN BC!
https://www.ultimatetools.ca/
604.291.9663

Offline Dave Ronyak

  • Posts: 2234
  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2008, 10:41 PM »
I'm not that happy with the cross-stops either due to the risk of errors due to trapped splinters/chips, but that is not really a machine design or quality of manufacture flaw.  I have found that I (an amateur who does not use his Domino that often) can get excellent, repeatable results by simply using a pencil mark across the boards to be joined.  Twenty-two mortises using the tight setting with 5 mm dominos over ~5 ft for the first try on hard maple with my 60 year old eyes - all fit perfectly. What could be easier and faster and near as accurate?

Dave R.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline clintholeman

  • Posts: 301
  • Sonoma County, CA
    • Clint Holeman, Fine Furniture and Cabinets
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2008, 10:51 PM »
I use my Domino almost every day and use the CrossStop almost daily, as well.  I find it to be an invaluable time saver and very accurate...

That being said, it seems to me that another approach would be to try using this forum to solve the problem in a constructive way.  I'm sure Christian would have been just as anxious to solve the problem and the adrenaline level would have been significantly lower.  Wood working is solving problems, on a continuing basis, for a lot of us.  Try a problem solving approach - it makes one look like a pro, even if you aren't.
Clint Holeman

clint@clintholeman.com
http://www.clintholeman.com

Offline Eli

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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2008, 10:58 PM »
Out of curiousity, what width hole setting do you typically use Clint?
Do nothing, stay ahead.

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7392
Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2008, 11:05 PM »
  Any of you guys remember watching Festool's videos on the Domino before it came out last year? In almost every video they showed that only the first mortise should be cut with the narrow setting and subsequent mortises should be with clearance to account for minor positioning inaccuracies, remember? Test drive video index.

Thanks, Brice,
As I said, we worked that out a while ago....



Yes, Rob you are right. The point of my post is that there should have been nothing to work out. In the videos Festool shows the proper use of the tool. Anyone that did any research would also have found out how to use the cross stops the right way. A searching this forum would produce this thread. This member had the same issue, and Festool USA was willing to fix it (and did, I know this from another forum).



I also have to agree with Eli, people who use their first posts to do nothing but "bag" a tool in their first posts leave me in feeling that they are not really interested in anything but venting their spleen. It's been my experience that such people get very little help or respect from other members of the forum in question.

Regards,

Rob

Again we agree, and I'd go even farther, this is not the place for that kind of "venting". Worse yet are some of replies, this guy is unhappy (and he is just venting) so how is antagonizing him going to help this thread? This kind of petty stuff keeps me away from other forums and the lack of junk here is why I enjoy this place so much. Remember when you behave badly the whole forum's reputation (and Matthew's to some extent) is hurt. It is all of our responsibility to keep this a friendly place, please don't forget that.

  
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 11:07 PM by Brice Burrell »

Offline Eli

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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2008, 11:12 PM »
You're right, my bad. I accept responsibility for my ungenerous treatment of Mr. Deeds.

Why don't we have a rant section then, for people who refuse to do any research on their own behalf and just want to use the place to complain. Sort of like a grenade range. Explosive, but safe for everyone else. I wouldn't mess with anyone in the confines.

Otherwise I'm bagging game on the open range, I can't help it.  ;D
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Offline Eiji Fuller

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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2008, 12:09 AM »
I myself have no qualms with negative posts.

I do agree with the author of this post and have found the cross stops to be inaccurate. I also empathise with his issues with the customer service from Festool. I have brought up on this forum and to Festool service the issue of the TS75 not cutting at the point of entry during bevel cuts. I had a conversation with the Service Dept Head about it and he did not resolve the issue and did not return calls regarding the issue after it was brought to his attention. I was left to engineer a solution myself. Which does not give me any warm fuzies for Festool customer service....But to their credit they did send me a new base for the saw when it wore out prematurely.

To say that the poster is full of --it. is immature. He has his experience with Festool and you have yours. I have mine.

I purchased my cross stops as part of the package deal with the expectation of accuracy. Specifically for stair railing-balluster connections. It failed miserably especially when used for a railing with a top and bottom rail. It has been collecting dust since then. thats my story.

Most of you here know that I love my Festool tools. I can do things with them, amazing things!   But when something doesn't work, it doesn't work. period.

I do take issue with some of the members here that seem to see the world through their green colored glasses.

Eiji Fuller

Offline Eiji Fuller

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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2008, 12:11 AM »
hey,
Why no venting?

Offline Eli

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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2008, 12:22 AM »
have you tried the new hand rail fence for it? ;D
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Offline clintholeman

  • Posts: 301
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Re: VERY VERY unhappy with festool after domino cross stop
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2008, 01:33 AM »
Out of curiousity, what width hole setting do you typically use Clint?

I use all of them.  The end mortises are almost always using the narrow setting, and the interior are usually done with the middle width setting.  I don't use the wide setting very much - though, if I make a mistake [a rarity  ;D ;D  ] it comes in pretty handy then.
Clint Holeman

clint@clintholeman.com
http://www.clintholeman.com