Author Topic: TSO Square and Parallel Guide consistently 2/3mm out from one end (Read 5134 times)

Boski · « **on:** May 17, 2023, 10:29 AM »

I have two TSO PE squares and the guide rail system.

The system itself is easy to set up and calibrate, however, all of my cuts are 2/3mm out from one end to the other.

From the start of the cut to around the middle they are decent, but the last half always has a variance of 2/3mm and it's getting really frustrating.

Here are the things I have tried:

- Using only one TSO square

- Re-calibrating

- Bought a new smaller Festool guide rail (I needed it anyway)

- Clamped down

None of the above seems to work. I can't understand how it can consistently be out by 2/3mm.

Will the splinter guard and how it is cut be an issue? It's a bit inconsistent, but then end where is does vary does give the same bang on cut.

However, I did buy a new rail and cut the splinter guard.

The only thing I can think of is the splinter guard? The rail itself stays in the garage and hasn't been used much and can't see any visible dinks.

Thanks

Alanbach · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2023, 11:19 AM »

Have you tried altering your technique a bit? It’s easy to push/pull the saw to the right or the left when you are stretched out towards the back half of a cut.

bobtskutter · « **Reply #2 on:** May 17, 2023, 01:12 PM »

Hello. Are you referring to tso rail squares and parallel guides? The ones with the flip stops. If you've calibrated both flip stops correctly you should get a cut that's parallel to the edge you've referenced off. Is the edge you're referencing off straight? If you've clamped the rail down the cut line should be right up to the splinter guard

Bob

Boski · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2023, 02:29 PM »

Hi,

Yes I am.

I have squared off the boards before hand, but keep getting a few mm difference at one end.

Boski · « **Reply #4 on:** May 17, 2023, 02:30 PM »

Quote from: Alanbach on May 17, 2023, 11:19 AM

Have you tried altering your technique a bit? It’s easy to push/pull the saw to the right or the left when you are stretched out towards the back half of a cut.

I'll try again, but have made numerous cuts and always a few mm out the other end.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #5 on:** May 17, 2023, 03:17 PM »

You’ve re-calibrated yet the results are consistently 2/3mm off.

Then you are consistently re-calibrating incorrectly.

The splinter guard has no relevance.

Position the parallel guides close to the ends of the board and set the stops to the same increments.
Make the cut (assuming you have taken the slack out of the fit of the saw to the rail)
Measure both ends of the freshly cut piece.
If there is a difference adjust one of the stops.

The last step is likely the problem.

If you have the FlipStop v2, the stop rod has a sliding stop between the fixture and the business end. (TSO calls it the Calibration Memory™ collar)
On the FlipStop that made the cut too wide, loosen the set screw on the movable collar and slide the collar snug against the arm of the FlipStop and retighten the set screw.
Find a shim the exact same thickness as the cut discrepancy. A feeler gauge is handy.
Loosen the set screw in the FlipStop arm and slip the shim between the arm and the collar then retighten that screw.
Pull the shim out and make another cut. The discrepancy should now be only one or two 1/10ths of a mm. In the range where the difference comes from your ability to set the stop flags to the same increment.

Packard · « **Reply #6 on:** May 17, 2023, 03:44 PM »

The instructions on calibrating my TSO guides fought me tooth and nail. Hans from TSO contacted me, but help was already in place from a member here.

Hans said that they were going to change the calibration instructions. Make sure you have the latest from TSO. If you are not sure, email to Hans and ask him to send them to you.

Once I got mine calibrated, they are a delight to use. I don’t know that they are sufficiently convenient to replace my aluminum rulers with stair stops. I still use them if I am only making one cut.

Stair stops are usually used on framers’ squares, but I use them with 36” and 48” and 60” aluminum rulers (Johnson).

Boski · « **Reply #7 on:** May 17, 2023, 04:15 PM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on May 17, 2023, 03:17 PM

You’ve re-calibrated yet the results are consistently 2/3mm off.

Then you are consistently re-calibrating incorrectly.
The splinter guard has no relevance.

Position the parallel guides close to the ends of the board and set the stops to the same increments.
Make the cut (assuming you have taken the slack out of the fit of the saw to the rail)
Measure both ends of the freshly cut piece.
If there is a difference adjust one of the stops.

The last step is likely the problem.

If you have the FlipStop v2, the stop rod has a sliding stop between the fixture and the business end. (TSO calls it the Calibration Memory™ collar)
On the FlipStop that made the cut too wide, loosen the set screw on the movable collar and slide the collar snug against the arm of the FlipStop and retighten the set screw.
Find a shim the exact same thickness as the cut discrepancy. A feeler gauge is handy.
Loosen the set screw in the FlipStop arm and slip the shim between the arm and the collar then retighten that screw.
Pull the shim out and make another cut. The discrepancy should now be only one or two 1/10ths of a mm. In the range where the difference comes from your ability to set the stop flags to the same increment.

Thank you very much for the reply.

I do have the Flip Stop 2's and will try out your instructions tomorrow.

I'll need to read your instructions through again to make sure I have understood them properly, but fingers crossed.

I have also ordered some feeler gauges

Boski · « **Reply #8 on:** May 17, 2023, 04:19 PM »

Quote from: Packard on May 17, 2023, 03:44 PM

The instructions on calibrating my TSO guides fought me tooth and nail. Hans from TSO contacted me, but help was already in place from a member here.

Hans said that they were going to change the calibration instructions. Make sure you have the latest from TSO. If you are not sure, email to Hans and ask him to send them to you.

Once I got mine calibrated, they are a delight to use. I don’t know that they are sufficiently convenient to replace my aluminum rulers with stair stops. I still use them if I am only making one cut.

Stair stops are usually used on framers’ squares, but I use them with 36” and 48” and 60” aluminum rulers (Johnson).

I have spoken with the TSO customer service and they have been helpful, however we haven't been able to work out what the issue is yet, so thought i would ask on here to get some real world answers.

To calibrate I have used a Bahco combination square and moved the flip stop to correlate to a set measurement such as 200mm.

It is slightly disappointing each cut as I paid a lot of money for them, so hopefully I can resolve it trying something someone suggested in this thread.

Thanks for the message bud.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #9 on:** May 17, 2023, 05:13 PM »

If you used the combination square as a large gauge to set the FlipStops to the same distance from the side of the rail, that should have done the trick. If you did that and it’s still off, it’s possible the guide rail is defective. Unlikely but possible.

Try the same method a different guide rail.

Even if the rail is off (narrower at one end) you can still use the method I outlined in the previous post to compensate. Keep in mind the correction is only valid when the parallel guides are in the same positions on the rail.

Chainring · « **Reply #10 on:** May 17, 2023, 05:23 PM »

Dave Stanton has a video of calibrating them with a chewed up anti-splinter strip. That might be one method to take a potential variable out of the equation.

woodferret · « **Reply #11 on:** May 17, 2023, 07:18 PM »

Quote from: Boski on May 17, 2023, 10:29 AM

From the start of the cut to around the middle they are decent, but the last half always has a variance of 2/3mm and it's getting really frustrating.

Can't help but think the rail is bent if the first half is straight. If your splinter guard is freshly cut, draw a pencil line with it, then shift your rail down 1/4 the length and see if it's now meandering off that line.

TSO_Products · « **Reply #12 on:** May 17, 2023, 10:49 PM »

@Boski and all you FOGGERS who offered help - thank you for this respectful thread and helping hands.

At TSO we learn from customers all the time. In this instance @Boski and our customer service have not been able to get to the bottom of Boski's difficulties. Until we can develop a better method of self-diagnosing root cause(s) of unsatisfactory results, we will continue to help remotely via phone and exchange of customer pictures.

@Boski - please ask our Customer Service Team to get me - Hans - on the phone with you in the morning so I can help you.

Hans
info@tsoproduts.com
(800) 727-0311

Boski · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2023, 05:12 PM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on May 17, 2023, 03:17 PM

You’ve re-calibrated yet the results are consistently 2/3mm off.

Then you are consistently re-calibrating incorrectly.
The splinter guard has no relevance.

Position the parallel guides close to the ends of the board and set the stops to the same increments.
Make the cut (assuming you have taken the slack out of the fit of the saw to the rail)
Measure both ends of the freshly cut piece.
If there is a difference adjust one of the stops.

The last step is likely the problem.

If you have the FlipStop v2, the stop rod has a sliding stop between the fixture and the business end. (TSO calls it the Calibration Memory™ collar)
On the FlipStop that made the cut too wide, loosen the set screw on the movable collar and slide the collar snug against the arm of the FlipStop and retighten the set screw.
Find a shim the exact same thickness as the cut discrepancy. A feeler gauge is handy.
Loosen the set screw in the FlipStop arm and slip the shim between the arm and the collar then retighten that screw.
Pull the shim out and make another cut. The discrepancy should now be only one or two 1/10ths of a mm. In the range where the difference comes from your ability to set the stop flags to the same increment.

Hi Michael,

I finally have some time to get around to this tomorrow, however I am bit confused with your instructions.

I don't suppose you can post a picture that shows what you mean in terms of the flip stop arm, collar etc? Would be greatly appreciated.

I know this is a great piece of kit but just need to tweak it slightly.

Thanks

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2023, 07:05 PM »

FlipStop is the name TSO gave to the thing you move on the small t-track rail to set the distance.
The arm is the part that carries the adjustable stop.

TSO Square and Parallel Guide consistently 2/3mm out from one end

Assume this is the FlipStop that is allowing the cut to be bigger than intended.
Also assume the curser flag is set exactly on the increment you intended.
So you don’t need to move the FlipStop or the curser.

Let’s say this setting is making the cut .001” too big so you want to move the small silver stop to the left exactly.001”.

First loosen the set screw on the collar.
Second, put a feeler gauge that is .001” thick between the collar and the blue arm.
Third, slide the collar snug against the feeler gauge and tighten the set screw.
Forth, remove the feeler gauge
Fifth, loosen the larger set screw in the blue arm and push the collar snug against the blue arm and tighten the set screw in the blue arm.

Doing this allows the rail to move to the right .001”. Cut again and confirm.

TSO_Products · « **Reply #15 on:** May 22, 2023, 10:42 PM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on May 22, 2023, 07:05 PM

FlipStop is the name TSO gave to the thing you move on the small t-track rail to set the distance.
The arm is the part that carries the adjustable stop.

(Attachment Link)

Assume this is the FlipStop that is allowing the cut to be bigger than intended.
Also assume the curser flag is set exactly on the increment you intended.
So you don’t need to move the FlipStop or the curser.

Let’s say this setting is making the cut .001” too big so you want to move the small silver stop to the left exactly.001”.

First loosen the set screw on the collar.
Second, put a feeler gauge that is .001” thick between the collar and the blue arm.
Third, slide the collar snug against the feeler gauge and tighten the set screw.
Forth, remove the feeler gauge
Fifth, loosen the larger set screw in the blue arm and push the collar snug against the blue arm and tighten the set screw in the blue arm.

Doing this allows the rail to move to the right .001”. Cut again and confirm.

Michael, thank you for helping out @Boski with your detailed suggestion.
We are not able to help since he has not yet responded to my earlier post.

Hans

Boski · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2023, 06:54 AM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on May 22, 2023, 07:05 PM

FlipStop is the name TSO gave to the thing you move on the small t-track rail to set the distance.
The arm is the part that carries the adjustable stop.

(Attachment Link)

Assume this is the FlipStop that is allowing the cut to be bigger than intended.
Also assume the curser flag is set exactly on the increment you intended.
So you don’t need to move the FlipStop or the curser.

Let’s say this setting is making the cut .001” too big so you want to move the small silver stop to the left exactly.001”.

First loosen the set screw on the collar.
Second, put a feeler gauge that is .001” thick between the collar and the blue arm.
Third, slide the collar snug against the feeler gauge and tighten the set screw.
Forth, remove the feeler gauge
Fifth, loosen the larger set screw in the blue arm and push the collar snug against the blue arm and tighten the set screw in the blue arm.

Doing this allows the rail to move to the right .001”. Cut again and confirm.

Michael you are an absolute legend - Thank you very much for your help, I'll try this and report back.

Boski · « **Reply #17 on:** May 23, 2023, 06:56 AM »

Quote from: TSO_Products on May 22, 2023, 10:42 PM

Quote from: Michael Kellough on May 22, 2023, 07:05 PM
FlipStop is the name TSO gave to the thing you move on the small t-track rail to set the distance.
The arm is the part that carries the adjustable stop.

(Attachment Link)

Assume this is the FlipStop that is allowing the cut to be bigger than intended.
Also assume the curser flag is set exactly on the increment you intended.
So you don’t need to move the FlipStop or the curser.

Let’s say this setting is making the cut .001” too big so you want to move the small silver stop to the left exactly.001”.

First loosen the set screw on the collar.
Second, put a feeler gauge that is .001” thick between the collar and the blue arm.
Third, slide the collar snug against the feeler gauge and tighten the set screw.
Forth, remove the feeler gauge
Fifth, loosen the larger set screw in the blue arm and push the collar snug against the blue arm and tighten the set screw in the blue arm.

Doing this allows the rail to move to the right .001”. Cut again and confirm.

Michael, thank you for helping out @Boski with your detailed suggestion.
We are not able to help since he has not yet responded to my earlier post.

Hans

Apologies for not being in touch Hans, I have only come back around to this.

Would you prefer I try Michaels suggestions first, or would you like to chat.

I am based in the Uk, so potential time zone issue.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #18 on:** May 23, 2023, 07:49 AM »

The directions I gave will work but it would be to your benefit to get in touch with Hans.

That collar I’m telling you to use to accurately adjust the stop was not put there by TSO for that purpose. They call it the “Calibration Memory collar” but I haven’t taken time to understand its purpose. Hans can help you adjust the setup and learn what the collar is really for.

Packard · « **Reply #19 on:** May 23, 2023, 09:38 AM »

Slightly off-topic but still related to accuracy using the measuring arms.

I had one bad cut which could easily be laid to the fact that the two thumb screws that are used to attach the measuring arm to the squaring arm had gone loose.

I leave the measuring arms attached at all times. I’ve now gotten into the habit of checking the tightness of all the thumb screws before each cut.

So far, I have only encountered a loose thumb screw one additional time. In any case, it only takes a second to do and it has gotten to be “automatic”. One less thing to worry about.

Boski · « **Reply #20 on:** May 23, 2023, 05:58 PM »

So today, I only used one square mainly and parallel guide to try and go through a process of elimination and also the piece of MDF I was cutting wasn't long enough to two squares at either end.

- I recalibrated the guide using a Bahco combination square

- Checked there was no slop in the saw and rail guide

- Checked the square and guide rail was square

- Squared off the reference edge

- Clamped down and used a MFT to ensure it didn't move

And yet still I got 2mm off.

I am away for two days and when I come back will do the same process with the other square and parallel guide.

I haven't even touched the longer parallel guides yet.

Hans - I am UK based, so please let me know a time to call on Friday that can work for both of us. Thanks

I have tried uploading pictures with no luck, Hans, I'll email across to your customer service email.

woodferret · « **Reply #21 on:** May 23, 2023, 07:56 PM »

Check your rail. I've had a short 800 rail come ever so slightly bent. It happens.

woodbutcherbower · « **Reply #22 on:** May 24, 2023, 02:25 AM »

@Boski @TSO Products

TSO is based in Minnesota = 6 hours behind the UK. So their regular 9-5 business hours would start at 3pm UK time.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #23 on:** May 24, 2023, 07:09 AM »

Quote from: woodbutcherbower on May 24, 2023, 02:25 AM

@Boski @TSO Products

TSO is based in Minnesota = 6 hours behind the UK. So their regular 9-5 business hours would start at 3pm UK time.

Hard to say, manufacturing is in Minnesota but I think Hans is in Florida, 5 hours behind.

Packard · « **Reply #24 on:** May 24, 2023, 09:51 AM »

Time zones mess me up sometimes.

I had a customer in New Zealand (I’m in New York). I knew I had about one hour per day when we could talk (as I recall from 4:00 pm to 5:00 pm New York time—EST).

So one Friday I called and it rang and rang and rang—until I realized that it was Saturday in New Zealand. I called again on Monday.

Mini Me · « **Reply #25 on:** May 24, 2023, 08:15 PM »

When I was selling Clearvue cyclones the earliest I could call was around midnight our time which was fairly inconvenient.

TSO_Products · « **Reply #26 on:** May 25, 2023, 11:04 PM »

Quote from: Boski on May 23, 2023, 05:58 PM

I am away for two days and when I come back will do the same process with the other square and parallel guide.

I haven't even touched the longer parallel guides yet.

Hans - I am UK based, so please let me know a time to call on Friday that can work for both of us. Thanks

I have tried uploading pictures to the FOG with no luck, Hans, I'll email across to your customer service email.

@Boski -
let's plan for a phone call from TSO to you in the UK on Saturday, May 27th, allowing for a 6-hour time difference. I will call you at the phone number and email address you provide to TSO's Customer Service staff. Meanwhile, I will look for your pictures emailed to:

info@tsoproducts.com attention Hans

Boski · « **Reply #27 on:** May 27, 2023, 05:10 AM »

Quote from: Packard on May 23, 2023, 09:38 AM

Slightly off-topic but still related to accuracy using the measuring arms.

I had one bad cut which could easily be laid to the fact that the two thumb screws that are used to attach the measuring arm to the squaring arm had gone loose.

I leave the measuring arms attached at all times. I’ve now gotten into the habit of checking the tightness of all the thumb screws before each cut.

So far, I have only encountered a loose thumb screw one additional time. In any case, it only takes a second to do and it has gotten to be “automatic”. One less thing to worry about.

That's a good point, and I did also notice that on one occasion, so do check them religiously now. Thanks for the tip.

Boski · « **Reply #28 on:** May 27, 2023, 05:13 AM »

Quote from: TSO_Products on May 25, 2023, 11:04 PM

Quote from: Boski on May 23, 2023, 05:58 PM

I am away for two days and when I come back will do the same process with the other square and parallel guide.

I haven't even touched the longer parallel guides yet.

Hans - I am UK based, so please let me know a time to call on Friday that can work for both of us. Thanks

I have tried uploading pictures to the FOG with no luck, Hans, I'll email across to your customer service email.

@Boski -
let's plan for a phone call from TSO to you in the UK on Saturday, May 27th, allowing for a 6-hour time difference. I will call you at the phone number and email address you provide to TSO's Customer Service staff. Meanwhile, I will look for your pictures emailed to:

info@tsoproducts.com attention Hans

Morning Hans,

Apologies, I missed this.

Happy to talk next week, if you can email me, i'll get the message straight away. (sent an email to Customer Services with pictures).

I can also jump on facetime, Microsoft Teams or Google Meets so I can show you what I am doing.

Thanks