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Author Topic: tight fitting dominos  (Read 13502 times)

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Offline jfr

  • Posts: 5
tight fitting dominos
« on: April 10, 2007, 08:55 PM »
I have used my new Domino to build 3 projects thus far. I am having an awful time dealing with how tight they fit. After I complete a dry fit,  I have had to remove the domino from the mortice by using a set of vice grips and hammer. I was wondering if others are having this problem or am I doing something wrong. .

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Offline Lou Miller

  • Posts: 482
  • North Wales, PA
    • Some of my work
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2007, 09:04 PM »
I just grab them with the claw of my hammer and they pop right out. They are tight, but the claw digs in just enough to get a grip on them, yet doesn't ruin the dominos. Put the vise grips away and try a claw hammer, I'm sure you'll find it works better.

Offline Steve Rowe

  • Posts: 828
  • Teach them safety when they are young.
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2007, 09:04 PM »
I have used a small vice grip to remove the domino but have not had to resort to the hammer.  I was thinking of trimming a few "dry fit" Dominos with a handplane to make it more of a slip fit soley for the purpose of dry assemblies.  I have had the Domino for all of 5 days so it is too early for me to have all this noodled out.
Steve

Offline sroxberg

  • Posts: 146
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2007, 10:18 PM »
I like the idea of slip fit Domino's for dry assembly runs. That makes sense.

Offline bassman00

  • Posts: 96
  • Danbury, CT
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2007, 07:05 AM »
I've had to use pliers to grab some of the dominos.  Not much force was needed though.  If that's the price for tight fitting joints I'll gladly pay it.

PaulD

Offline ejantny

  • Posts: 182
  • Scotia, NY
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2007, 07:42 AM »
All the one I've used so far have been tight and only a couple were a slip fit. The ones I removed were hard coming out. I'll try the hammer claw the next time.

Offline jfr

  • Posts: 5
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2007, 08:18 AM »
This morning I tried the claw on the hammer approach to removing dominos ( after dry fit) and it works good. I probably never would have thought of that approach. Ideas and discoveries made by others that are shaired in these forums is surely the best part of these sites. Thanks very much..

Offline Jim Becker

  • Posts: 169
  • Think twice...write once...
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Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2007, 08:31 AM »
Now, I'm not an owner, but it seems to me I read that the first one should be tight (for alignment) but the remaining domino mortises on a joint are supposed to be cut with a proverbial hair of play. Are you making those adjustments as you cut the mortises?
“Never raise your hands to your children, it leaves your groin unprotected.” - Red Buttons

Offline ejantny

  • Posts: 182
  • Scotia, NY
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2007, 08:38 AM »
There are three settings on the Domino for the width of the tenon. The first is for a tight fit, the other two are for a wider fit. The first position is the same width of the domino and the 2nd is 6mm wider and the third 10mm wider.

The thickness of the domino tenon is what is tight.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4217
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2007, 09:15 AM »
Since the thickness makes the fit so snug,
maybe a few swipes across a sheet of sandpaper
would adjust a domino for a slippier fit?

Offline ejantny

  • Posts: 182
  • Scotia, NY
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2007, 09:18 AM »
I was thinking of doing that this afternoon, swiping with some 80 grit paper. I have more walnut to edge join.

Offline Ted Miller

  • Posts: 234
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2007, 09:56 AM »
Jim, Actually I cut them all the same. I read about making some of the mortises larger with next selection on the Domino but that is if you are doing a very large item with many dominos and are worried about measuring errors. But as of yet it does not need to be done for me. The fit is perfect everytime and I have done as many as 20 tenons at one time and with zero measurements.

Yes the dry fit is tight but I can usually get them out with my hands or just a small tap to the side with my 12 oz hammer...
Miller's Wood Works

Offline Jesse Cloud

  • Posts: 1738
  • Festooling at the end of a dirt road in New Mexico
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2007, 10:20 AM »
Love the claw hammer idea.

For what its worth, I'm taking some classes at the local community college and the standard there is that a tenon should go into the mortise with hand pressure and require a dead blow hammer to come out.  This is with traditional methods, not Domino...

Offline Lou Miller

  • Posts: 482
  • North Wales, PA
    • Some of my work
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2007, 11:40 AM »
I told you guys that you'd like the claw idea. Us long time carpenters are good for something at least.  ;D

I haven't needed to introduce any slop into my mortises yet either. The most dominos I've used in a joint yet was only 8, but I had no problem whatsoever getting them to align perfectly. I doubt I'll use the 6mm and 10mm settings for slop very much.

Offline Rob McGilp

  • Posts: 430
  • Curmudgeon
    • Damn Fine Furniture
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2007, 05:20 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm new here and I guess from my Avatar you can see why I stay in the dark. ::)

I've had a Domino for about 12 months now and thought I'd share my experience with the dreaded tight domino.
The tenons are made of solid timber, compressed along the grooved sides. As such, they react to atmospheric changes like any timber would. (I think they are Euro Beech.) In conditions of high dampness and humidity, they will swell, sometimes by up to 1mm, not necessarily across the entire domino, but not all dominoes. In this situation, the precision of the joint really shows and dominoes showing any swelling may become hard to insert and even harder to remove, since you are pulling rather than pushing and have the resistance of the workpiece to contend with also. There are three solutions, that I have encountered among seasoned Domino users.
1. Keep the dominoes in an airtight bag in a warm environment between uses.
2. Go through all your dominoes and select the ones which have not swollen, then keep these somewhere for using in dry knockups only.
3. Nuke the dominoes prior to use in a Microwave.
or, move to Arizona ;D.

Option 2 is the one I use.

Regards,

Albert


Offline Jesse Cloud

  • Posts: 1738
  • Festooling at the end of a dirt road in New Mexico
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2007, 06:38 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm new here and I guess from my Avatar you can see why I stay in the dark. ::)

I've had a Domino for about 12 months now and thought I'd share my experience with the dreaded tight domino.
The tenons are made of solid timber, compressed along the grooved sides. As such, they react to atmospheric changes like any timber would. (I think they are Euro Beech.) In conditions of high dampness and humidity, they will swell, sometimes by up to 1mm, not necessarily across the entire domino, but not all dominoes. In this situation, the precision of the joint really shows and dominoes showing any swelling may become hard to insert and even harder to remove, since you are pulling rather than pushing and have the resistance of the workpiece to contend with also. There are three solutions, that I have encountered among seasoned Domino users.
1. Keep the dominoes in an airtight bag in a warm environment between uses.
2. Go through all your dominoes and select the ones which have not swollen, then keep these somewhere for using in dry knockups only.
3. Nuke the dominoes prior to use in a Microwave.
or, move to Arizona ;D.

Option 2 is the one I use.

Regards,

Albert


Welcome Albert!
Good to hear from someone with some substantial Domino experience!  Has the swelling of the dominoes ever caused a joint to fail or a piece to crack in your experience?   I already live near Arizona and I wonder what would happen if I sent something built with dry dominoes back to the land of humidity?  Maybe I should use the 'loose fit' settings...

Offline Rob McGilp

  • Posts: 430
  • Curmudgeon
    • Damn Fine Furniture
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2007, 07:06 PM »
Hi Jesse,
I wouldn't worry about the strength of joint as the glue up process will still be the same, you will have a tight joint. Our humidity goes from 40 something% to 90% and I dont see any issues. Its really only when you use tenons exposed to the air that this is seen.
The 2nd and 3rd width cuts are great for long panels as you have a reference point of one cut width then expand out to two, then three cut widths, so that one person can just slide the joint together. For stile and rail joints it pays (IMHO) to use a single cut width carefully marked out on both pieces. The strength you get is beautiful and really easy to obtain.


Hope this answers your questions,

Albert

Offline Ted Miller

  • Posts: 234
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2007, 07:26 PM »
Albert, Thanks for the info, I could have sworn that I heard that Bill who posts here soaked some dominos for two weeks in water and none of them swelled. I could have heard wrong. Yes they are beechwood native to Germany...
Miller's Wood Works

Offline Rob McGilp

  • Posts: 430
  • Curmudgeon
    • Damn Fine Furniture
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2007, 07:58 PM »
Hi Ted,
Just to let you know what I did.
I took 2x each size domino straight from the Systainer on a rainy day, just after a humid spell and used an digital caliper to take measurements at each end and the middle and recorded them. After 10 hours in a warm, heated room, I took the measurements again and there was quite a variation of change. In all cases the dominoes had returned to the expected size after "drying" and I think the worst was a 4% change based on final reading/initial readingx100. Crude but shows the point. No disrespect meant to anyone here, this is just what I and some others found to be the case. It really is only to help with dry knock up, where you don't want to fight with the tenons when you're keen to get on to actual glue up :)
Oh and I can remember saying to someone at the time, Well, the guys on the East Coast and Southern states of the US are going to love this. ;D ;D
I forgot one thing. The swelling is not particularly large, nor is it an ever increasing thing. It is possible that a domino which has reached it's maximum expansion could be soaked and show no appreciable change with time. Just a thought.

Regards

Albert
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 08:04 PM by Albert Davies »

Offline Dave Ronyak

  • Posts: 2234
  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2007, 01:28 PM »
My recently acquired Domino set came with oak dominos.  Each of the six plastic bags within the Systainer is so labeled.  My first project involved joining hard maple edging to some melamine coated particle board shelving.  Some of the dominos were a tight dry fit.  To remove those, I used a pair of water pump pliers and a simple light squeeze and tug.  No need for vise grips.  No damage to the tenons.

Dave R.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline woodshopdemos

  • Inactive Member
  • *
  • Posts: 759
    • Woodshop Demos - 1400 pages of how-to
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2007, 11:46 PM »
Albert,
   Take the amount you willl need and place in a plastic tub and pop in microwave. How Long is by trial and error. One minute worked for me.
In memory of John Lucas (1937 - 2010)

Offline morris

  • Posts: 2
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2007, 07:19 AM »
Rather than using the 2nd or 3rd setting to make the slot wider  (which makes them really wide ) I sometimes slide the machine side to side as its cutting 0.5 mm or so to each side of the centre line ,alternatively trim the domino with a stanley knife on its narrow face

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3719
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2007, 07:57 AM »
It seems that ever since I have been reading about the domino, I have noted that there was a problem with the tight fit at times.  I do not have the domino (yet), as finances require i wait til price goes back up, or a later "sale" occurs.  I have, however, used dowels for many projects. I am located in Connecticut, not too far from LI sound where the humidity can get quite out of hand at times during summer months.  I often run into a problem with swollen dowels.  I just cut the number I need to length and stick them into the microwave for a few seconds. I have thought this should work with dominos.  I see John L. already does this, so i am sure it will work everywhere else, as he is even closer to the ocean, with the accomanying humidity problems than i am.

i have not enclosed the dowels in plast bags, but I think it might make sense to do so with the dominos.  It should keep them from drying out too quickly. 
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline bill-e

  • Posts: 504
  • Rindge, New Hampshire, USA
    • New Hampshire Woodworker
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2007, 09:14 AM »
My recently acquired Domino set came with oak dominos.  Each of the six plastic bags within the Systainer is so labeled.  My first project involved joining hard maple edging to some melamine coated particle board shelving.  Some of the dominos were a tight dry fit.  To remove those, I used a pair of water pump pliers and a simple light squeeze and tug.  No need for vise grips.  No damage to the tenons.

Dave R.
Dave,

I just checked my bags and there is an OAK1234 (don't remember the exact numbers) designation on mine as well....I just sent an email off to Festool :)

Offline bill-e

  • Posts: 504
  • Rindge, New Hampshire, USA
    • New Hampshire Woodworker
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2007, 09:18 AM »
Albert, Thanks for the info, I could have sworn that I heard that Bill who posts here soaked some dominos for two weeks in water and none of them swelled. I could have heard wrong. Yes they are beechwood native to Germany...
Ted, I soaked them for 15 HOURS which was just what I did...nothing scientific.  Maybe the small amount of growth is enough to make them tight.

"In an effort to find out how stable the Domino tenon is I submerged this tenon in a glass of water for about 15 hours.  I measured its thickness before placing it in the water and it averaged 8.05mm.  After 15 hours I removed it and measured it again, it measured 8.20mm on average.  That is a growth of .15mm or .006".  I'm not sure what this test proves or how I could equate 15 hours in water to the humidity in my shop but it does look to me that the tenon is dimensionally stable."

Offline ejantny

  • Posts: 182
  • Scotia, NY
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2007, 09:22 AM »
Just remembered I looked at a bag the other day and it had a OBKxxx number on it.

Offline bill-e

  • Posts: 504
  • Rindge, New Hampshire, USA
    • New Hampshire Woodworker
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2007, 09:30 AM »
Just remembered I looked at a bag the other day and it had a OBKxxx number on it.
Yea, mine say OAKxxxx but I figured it had nothing to do with the type of wood...sent the email off just to confirm.

Offline bill-e

  • Posts: 504
  • Rindge, New Hampshire, USA
    • New Hampshire Woodworker
Re: tight fitting dominos
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2007, 10:53 AM »
Just remembered I looked at a bag the other day and it had a OBKxxx number on it.
Yea, mine say OAKxxxx but I figured it had nothing to do with the type of wood...sent the email off just to confirm.
Folks, Just to clear this up, the tenons are Beech not Oak.  I already received a reply to my email to Festool.  The markings on the bag are some kind of code having nothing to do with wood species.