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Author Topic: New Kapex 120 REB - hot gearbox, oil from vents, table not level and more...  (Read 6929 times)

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Offline ahairoffsquare

  • Posts: 13
Hi everyone,

I'm a solo handyman/cabinetmaker who, after difficulties with getting the accuracy I needed with other saws, was recently persuaded by a good salesman that Festool really did live up to it reputation and price as The Choice for precision. Consequently, I did something I never do, and made an unresearched purchase of a Kapex 120 REB on the day - mainly because I just needed something to get back to work.

Although I was pleased that it seemed to cut square out of the box, more and more issues have been unfortunately cropping up in the month since I took it home, to the point where I became  reluctant to use it.

I'll skip ahead here briefly and say yes, I have returned it for inspection (more on that later) and no - this is not a whinge or a rant. Rather,  I'm mainly looking to see if anyone else has run into these issues with their Kapexes, and whether mines an aberration from norm, or if this is what to expect from Festool in general.

In order:

1/ The vents from the motor spray substantial amounts of oil. Enough to need daily cleaning, or it drips onto work. I see some references here and there to 'oily films', but nothing about actual running liquid. Anyone know what this is from?



2/ The motor/gearbox housing gets very hot, VERY fast. Around 60C - enough to make you flich if you brush it - after a few minutes, even with no load. I've never had a saw, miter or otherwise, that gets this hot, and I regularly run some for hours at a time.



3/The 0 degree stop...doesn't. It did at first but withing a week, it more or least ceased to function usefully.  Even the lightest of pressure and the body carries right past the stop when trying to return from a bevel. You can make it catch if you slowly, carefully inch it up to 0 degrees...but if this is what's needed, why have the stop at all?





4/ The laser is easily a full mm out. I know this is adjustable, but the manual clearly states that it should be 'correct' from factory. How 'correct' is factory tolerances? Do most people normally have to dial it on themselves or should this be 'bang on'?



5/The wings of the cut deck are not nor at the same height as the table. Rather, the combined surface is effectively bowed in a "U", with the work resting on high spots as the far edged of the wings, and 'hovering' off the table in the middle (I have seen this referred to elsewhere). This results in the squareness of vertical cuts depending on the length of the offcut and whether it rests on a high or low point. Extremely disappointing for a 'precision' tool and while I accept this isn't rocket surgery down to the micron, it's demonstrably enough to have a visible effect on regular cabinetry, resulting in hairline gap at beveled joints.




6/ The whole saw pulsates with an irregular vibration when running, which it didnt when I first ran it. It's still mild, but  seems to be getting worse with time.

7/ Lowering the saw, even with the trigger depressed, still results in a hard 'catch' before the blade guard retracts. Often, quite excessive force is needed to actually operate this, and it's a very jarring and un-ergonomic. Again - unsure if this is normal, but it's getting worse with time.



8/ Dust extraction is appalling. One thing I had heard prior to purchase was that these saws supposedly excelled at dust control, but even with a variety of different high-powered cyclone extractors, it's still the worst miter saw I've ever had in terms of spray. I've checked that theres no obstructions and can feel airflow thru the rear of the guard...it just doesn't seem to DO anything. I'd had to resort to two 100mm ducts with bellmouths on moveable arms, to try and tame the cloud on either side.



As I mentioned above - I have already contacted Festool and explained as much of this to them as I could.... I'll refrain from commenting further on those conversations at this stage, along with my own personal feelings on this whole matter. Suffice to say, I've done as they asked and made made the 3 hour round trip to return the saw to the place of purchase, and have been told I should expect a wait of 3-4 weeks. Meaning I'm now back where I started,  looking for a new saw again, simply because I can't afford to  stop work while I wait to see if this one  does come back any better. Only now, I'm $2000 poorer.

So. Should I expect these things to be fixed under warranty when it does get back, or is this just 'normal' for these tools?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 07:37 AM by ahairoffsquare »

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Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 9998
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Yikes. That's  lot of problems!

      Just some general thoughts. I am sure that Festool will get this taken care of, and I think you got a lemon, or a saw that had issues and was returned and in some way fell through the cracks.

      I don't know about the temp. issue never even thought to check or noticed. The oil does seem excessive in the picture ....................  maybe those two are related?

      The head raise / lower issue is an adjustment type of thing.

      The table extensions -- I have the older model without them and have never seen the new one in person. So I am not sure about those.

      The DC? I have seen some people say that it is no better than on saw 'X' , etc. And generally the reports are that it is very good.  But this is the first I have read on it being truly bad. Not sure what's going on with that.

  I am sure others will post here with more details. I would say to check this or that but since you don't have the saw on hand ............................... 

Seth

Offline twistsol

  • Posts: 36
  • A shop full of tools and no talent
    • The Sawdustzone
Nothing you have described matches my experience with my 13 year old Kapex and it all would unacceptable to me. I would expect all of the issues to be corrected with the exception of dust collection. It was the best on the market when it was introduced, but I don't believe that is the case any longer.

Below is a photo of more than a decade of accumulated oil on mine.

337006-0

Offline ahairoffsquare

  • Posts: 13
Thanks. Just to be clear - its not the adjustable extension arms that are the issue - the high points are on the wings on the main body itself (the areas marked with the "x" in the video). It's hard to show in the video but they both slope down as you head inwards towards the turntable - as if the whole thing has been bent in a "U". I suspect the casting has warped.

For the sake of my own reference I went down to the local generic hardware chain this arvo  and did the same check on the cheapest Makita I could find (which isn't even actually makita), which is about 20% the price of the kapex.



As you can see - none of the same gaps. No gaps at all, in fact, on that one, or any of the others - even their $200 home-brand model.

i know some people are of the opinion that 'it's only woodworking, a few thou doesn't matter', but without getting onto that debate (which i thoroughly disagree with anyway) - if they can get it flat on a saw 1/10th the price,its should be flat on the Kapex.

Offline ahairoffsquare

  • Posts: 13
Nothing you have described matches my experience with my 13 year old Kapex and it all would unacceptable to me. I would expect all of the issues to be corrected with the exception of dust collection. It was the best on the market when it was introduced, but I don't believe that is the case any longer.

Below is a photo of more than a decade of accumulated oil on mine.

(Attachment Link)

Thanks. Takes me about 13 minutes to get what took you 13 years, it seems.

What do you think IS the best in terms of DC now?

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3700
Definitely a horror story!

Mine -- 6 years old EB model -- has had none of the issues you covered except that my laser was slightly off.

The DC is still great, used with a 36mm hose.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 11:19 AM by ChuckS »

Offline twistsol

  • Posts: 36
  • A shop full of tools and no talent
    • The Sawdustzone
Nothing you have described matches my experience with my 13 year old Kapex and it all would unacceptable to me. I would expect all of the issues to be corrected with the exception of dust collection. It was the best on the market when it was introduced, but I don't believe that is the case any longer.

Below is a photo of more than a decade of accumulated oil on mine.

(Attachment Link)

Thanks. Takes me about 13 minutes to get what took you 13 years, it seems.

What do you think IS the best in terms of DC now?

My brother in law just bought a Dewalt about a year ago although I don't know the model. Dust collection was about the same when hooked up to a Ridgid vac. Unfortunately the vast majority of miter saws on the market have a horizontal handle to the right of the blade and I am left handed. I could probably adapt if my Kapex ever dies, but I'm a grumpy old man that doesn't like change.

Offline ahairoffsquare

  • Posts: 13

My brother in law just bought a Dewalt about a year ago although I don't know the model. Dust collection was about the same when hooked up to a Ridgid vac. Unfortunately the vast majority of miter saws on the market have a horizontal handle to the right of the blade and I am left handed. I could probably adapt if my Kapex ever dies, but I'm a grumpy old man that doesn't like change.

One of my major reasons for getting this was having previously returned a the new Kikoki 36v cordless 260mm miter saw. While it has a lot of merits (including a fairly flat deck), I also can't stand the 'monkey bar' handle, which actually torqued the whole saw head enough to cause major blade deflection. Blade-aligned trigger grip is the superior option in terms of cut control. it's a pity more saws don't use it.


Offline Yardbird

  • Posts: 343
 I am left handed. I could probably adapt if my Kapex ever dies, but I'm a grumpy old man that doesn't like change.

I can relate-both being left-handed and grumpy.   Porter Cable at one time made a left-handed power saw which made all the difference in the world-no longer having to stand on the wrong side of the saw, and having the sawdust chute hitting my leg and diverting the sawdust up behind my safety glasses was a nice change.

Being left handed is a challenge-have to read veneer calipers upside down, gun cartridges ejecting toward your body and going down your shirt, scissors and tin snips cutting into your thumb because you have your fingers in the wrong holes, good reasons to stay on the grumpy side.

I would probably still be grumpy even if I were not left-handed, but that is because there are so many stupid people in the world. 

Offline ultane

  • Posts: 111
I hate that you are having problems. I hope Festool steps up to the plate and makes things right.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
I might be wrong… Just ask my X...

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1463
I almost wonder if this tool was dropped - HARD - on its head before it was purchased.  That would explain many of the issues seen, in my uneducated opinion.

Offline ahairoffsquare

  • Posts: 13
I almost wonder if this tool was dropped - HARD - on its head before it was purchased.  That would explain many of the issues seen, in my uneducated opinion.

I considered this too, but I can't see any signs of impact damage anywhere on it. Such a drop would maybe explain the bent deck, the laser misalignment....but the gearbox heat?

In any case, it seems like the consensus is that this ISN'T normal?

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1463
A hard enough drop would knock things out of alignment internally: loose armatures, etc.  Blowing oil that is meant to keep the whole thing cool doesn't help heating issues, either.

But, yes, the consensus is that this is so far from normal that it's a shame that it's your first experience with the brand.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9877
In any case, it seems like the consensus is that this ISN'T normal?

No it's not normal, however have you sent a detailed list of all these problem issues to Festool Service?  More importantly, have you referenced the Kapex shop work order number or the Kapex repair ticket number to your list of problems? That's a must, otherwise Festool will do a visual check and what isn't caught by them will not be fixed. That's understandable...Festool can't fix what they can't see is a problem and your inspection of the Kapex may be a closer look-see than theirs. They don't have the luxury of time like you do.

The last thing you want is for Festool to solve let's say 6 of the 8 items, ship the Kapex back to you and then you have to send it off to Lebanon again for further adjustments. That's beyond frustrating.

For the best dust extraction make sure to use the shortest 36 mm hose you can that attaches to the dust extractor. I think mine is only 5-6 feet long. I've been toying with using a 50 mm hose to see if the dust extraction improves. Even with the 36 mm hose the dust extraction is pretty phenomenal.

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1463
Pretty much everything Cheese said.

However, you used the term "whinge" instead of "whine", and talked about being out $2000 so far for the Kapex.  This leads me to believe that you may or may not be in the US, so comments about Lebanon (Indiana) may or may not apply.

@ahairoffsquare , where are you located?

Offline ahairoffsquare

  • Posts: 13
In any case, it seems like the consensus is that this ISN'T normal?

No it's not normal, however have you sent a detailed list of all these problem issues to Festool Service?  More importantly, have you referenced the Kapex shop work order number or the Kapex repair ticket number to your list of problems? That's a must, otherwise Festool will do a visual check and what isn't caught by them will not be fixed. That's understandable...Festool can't fix what they can't see is a problem and your inspection of the Kapex may be a closer look-see than theirs. They don't have the luxury of time like you do.

The last thing you want is for Festool to solve let's say 6 of the 8 items, ship the Kapex back to you and then you have to send it off to Lebanon again for further adjustments. That's beyond frustrating.

For the best dust extraction make sure to use the shortest 36 mm hose you can that attaches to the dust extractor. I think mine is only 5-6 feet long. I've been toying with using a 50 mm hose to see if the dust extraction improves. Even with the 36 mm hose the dust extraction is pretty phenomenal.

I agree entirely. But I'd not be surprised if that's how it turns out.

To clarify, I'm in Australia - one of the more rural bits. So a return was always going to be a pain. One of my ...dissatisfactions in this has been that despite initially trying to contact Festool service Australia to articulate all of these issues clearly and directly and avoid unnecessary work for all involved, I was rather curtly told over then phone to just  'take it back to the shop for inspection'. Initially, all I wanted was clarification on whether the heat and oil was normal, and the best I could get was a noncommittal 'maybe, maybe not, wouldn't think so....probably'. I tried asking about the laser and the guards sticking, and before I was even done it was the same response - 'just take it back mate'. Travel times didn't seem to be something they considered - after all, it's not them making the trip I guess.

So with no further guidance forthcoming, I had no choice but to make that 3 hour drive. Unsurprisingly, the shop staff themselves were far less communicative than when they'd been trying to sell me the saw, and had zero interest in even looking at any of the issues at all. "No, we don't service or inspect any Festool - we send all of it away'. So they shortened everything down into a two-sentence summary on the 'returns' form (no photos, video, measurements - nothing), took the saw, and told me it'd be be up to a week before they even ship it to the service center in city, and 3-4 before I'd hear back from them.  I called Festool again and asked if I could speed this up by delivering it myself, and was told flatly no.

Forgive me if that sounds like a whinge, or a whine, but this all translates to downtime and further cost to me, and it's not what I'd describe as an efficient or professional system, to say the least.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 12:06 AM by ahairoffsquare »

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9877
All of your tale is unfortunate.. however I’ve heard these stories several times before and unfortunately they all come from Australia. There seems to be a very real issue with the Aussie distributorship and this has been happening for years.

Best of luck to you, I’m just grateful for the Festool service we have in the US, it’s exemplary.

Offline ahairoffsquare

  • Posts: 13
All of your tale is unfortunate.. however I’ve heard these stories several times before and unfortunately they all come from Australia. There seems to be a very real issue with the Aussie distributorship and this has been happening for years.

Best of luck to you, I’m just grateful for the Festool service we have in the US, it’s exemplary.

Again - youre bang on. There's a whole other conversation there, not just about Festool Aus, but all tool brands and general corporate/commercial attitudes towards customers in Aus.

Just last year I actually made the big decision to switch nearly my entire cordless platform over due to repeated failures and lack of action or acknowledgment from the responsible company. As part of that, I'm still trying to find a suitable replacement for my problematic track saws....The TSC 55 KEB was the frontrunner candidate...

So in that sense, I can't really say what I'm seeing from Festool (so far) is any worse that what I've had from several other major brands. What I can say is my local tool store - a small independent sales and repair outfit that's been run by the one guy for nearly 30 years - has some very strong opinions about Festool based on his industry experience from when he used to be a stockist.


 To be fair, this Kapex matter isn't over yet, so I'm trying to refrain from judging Festool too much too much. I just expected better. After all, that's what you're supposedly paying for, right?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 12:34 AM by ahairoffsquare »

Offline morts10n

  • Posts: 325
I have TONS of Festool stuff, but  i am branching out to other brands because they are failing in quality. When  i get reimbursed for 2 Kapex motor failures....I might change my mind

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3700
As a woodwooker for so many years, the thought of sticking to one brand (any brand) for my tools has never crossed my mind. May the best value -- price, performance and reliability, AND after sales service -- (regardless of brand, origin or color) win.

Offline ahairoffsquare

  • Posts: 13
Well, an update:

The saw was returned to the place of purchase on 28 October, as previously detailed, where the staff logged a job on the spot.

I received an email on Wed (10 Nov) from Festool stating that the saw had been received. I called them today to confirm this was accurate, and they verified that indeed it was - it has taken nearly two weeks to simply get the saw to the service center.

Why is this a problem? The service center is 30 km - about a half hour drive - from the store I dropped it at.

I knew this at the time, but when I asked Festool then about a direct dropoff I was refused: "something something COVID something". I don't know any other brand that hasn't being accepting contact-free dropoffs/pickups, literally everywhere is doing and I've had no problems dropping other tools off anywhere. Even so, 2 weeks for a courier pickup one suburb over? The retail store itself claims they they had it sitting around waiting for over a week before the even  courier arrived.

Unacceptable.

I've emailed a formal complaint to Festool Australia and have since purchased another saw as I cannot afford to wait any longer. Meaning that my decision to choose Festool has now cost me more money, without even having their supposedly class-leaading saw in my shop.

So much for the 'Festool Experience'.

Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 259
I feel your frustration, it's almost as bad in the city (Melbourne). Personally I don't think it's completely a Festool Aus problem, though Tooltechnics have had their issues over the years. I know it makes no difference to your issue, but just 10 mins ago I had a call from Festool Aus, to help me with claiming a redemption attached to a Rotex I bought this week. Was quickly, and politely, sorted. No fuss. Very happy.
Over the past month, I purchased a new planer(jointer), from a supplier 5 kilometres away. It was picked up by the courier, then spent the next week doing a tour of Victoria. It was finally delivered, in three separate deliveries, over three days.
I'm waiting on $500 worth of abrasives, from Sydney. Paid for Express shipping, should have been here over a week ago. Still waiting, no one can actually tell me where the package is.
Honestly, I think it's an Australian thing. Our 'service' is lacking, in a lot of areas. We went on a family holiday to NYC and LA, and we were BLOWN AWAY by the service we received, everywhere we went.


Offline ahairoffsquare

  • Posts: 13
I feel your frustration, it's almost as bad in the city (Melbourne). Personally I don't think it's completely a Festool Aus problem, though Tooltechnics have had their issues over the years. I

Yeah I'm dealing with the Melbourne service center myself.

I agree there are wider, more ingrained issues with business/customer culture in Australia and have made the same observations myself when I lived abroad. But it's another discussion perhaps. At least we have strong consumer rights laws. Hopefully it wont get that far though.

Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 259
What did you get as a temporary saw?
I'm a very satisfied Kapex owner, though I am bemused at the 'superb dust collection' claim. It's ok, nothing special. Nature of the tool, never going to be great.

Offline ahairoffsquare

  • Posts: 13
Hitachi C10. Only other rear option with an inline handle. Was my original choice but after using a bosch glidearm on a job with a mate i convinced myself I wanted forward-projection arms and front facing controls.

Now I have it in the shop on a mobile trolly, the rear projection of the slide arm isnt that big a deal after all and the rear locking knob for bevel adjustment is only slightly more awkward. On the plus side, it's got a flat deck, it's not making a mess all over the job and is actually here, and working.

I'm regretting bothering with the kapex at all frankly.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1038
...
To clarify, I'm in Australia - one of the more rural bits. So a return was always going to be a pain. One of my ...dissatisfactions in this has been that despite initially trying to contact Festool service Australia to articulate all of these issues clearly and directly and avoid unnecessary work for all involved, I was rather curtly told over then phone to just  'take it back to the shop for inspection'. Initially, all I wanted was clarification on whether the heat and oil was normal, and the best I could get was a noncommittal 'maybe, maybe not, wouldn't think so....probably'. I tried asking about the laser and the guards sticking, and before I was even done it was the same response - 'just take it back mate'. Travel times didn't seem to be something they considered - after all, it's not them making the trip I guess.

So with no further guidance forthcoming, I had no choice but to make that 3 hour drive. Unsurprisingly, the shop staff themselves were far less communicative than when they'd been trying to sell me the saw, and had zero interest in even looking at any of the issues at all. "No, we don't service or inspect any Festool - we send all of it away'. So they shortened everything down into a two-sentence summary on the 'returns' form (no photos, video, measurements - nothing), took the saw, and told me it'd be be up to a week before they even ship it to the service center in city, and 3-4 before I'd hear back from them.  I called Festool again and asked if I could speed this up by delivering it myself, and was told flatly no.

Forgive me if that sounds like a whinge, or a whine, but this all translates to downtime and further cost to me, and it's not what I'd describe as an efficient or professional system, to say the least.

1) DO NOT ALLOW your seller to PREVENT your issues being resolved by Festool by NOT informing Festool service about the issues you dully reported.

What to do:
Take the receipt from the shop with all details you have and contact Festool AUS DIRECTLY VIA EMAIL where you can attach all the information - like you did here. Make sure to include the serial number of the machine in the email as a reference.

A written communication has a legal weight so they will _have to_ attend the issue and it cannot happen that a call center idiot will simply misunderstand the problem and not report it.

Lastly, make sure to REGISTER your device on Festool.com.au:
https://www.festool.com.au/warranty

Also make sure to do this ASAP - if your dealer did not inform you, you will get FULL 3 Years ONLY if you register in time on the site.


2) As far as possible, I would never ever purchase anything, even a screw from a shop with the behavior you describe and would make darn sure I would let every one in my circle aware why.

2b) If you have no shop close-by, at least for the bigger (and potentially fragile) items, buy from an online seller and have it delivered directly to you. These days you do not (have to) depend on the local guys who feel like having a monopoly.

P.S.:
I would not be surprised if Festool forbid these guys to touch any returned tools - that is normal for warranty fixes as the vendor does not want amateurs at the shop making things worse for the customer.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3700
Snip.
2) As far as possible, I would never ever purchase anything, even a screw from a shop with the behavior you describe and would make darn sure I would let every one in my circle aware why.
Snip.

When a merchant makes a honest mistake, or seeks to correct it to my satisfaction, I'll give the business another chance. Otherwise, yes, I'll stop buying from that merchant, and let my friends know, too. The opposite is also true When I come across a vendor (car dealership. plumbing, dental, etc.) which offers outstanding service, I try to alert anyone who may one day need such assistance.

Offline ahairoffsquare

  • Posts: 13
So - an update and a conclusion to this little story.

Festool responded to my complaint, claiming the original delay was because the retail store didn't have it ready for pickup in time. Said store instead said that Festool didn't give them the consignment info. Neither side took any responsibility, but the saw was now with a technician, so I let it slide.

The technician emailed that evening, which was nice, but said that either the problems weren't actually problems ('they all get that hot, they all blow oil') or intimated that I had damaged the saw myself, such as by 'crashing' the saw head into the 0 stop.

I sent several more clarifying emails/videos, disputing this assessment, and it was agreed that the saw would be looked at ASAP. It still took a week for it to be ready for collection (with instructions from Festool to be 'more gentle with the 0-stop'...), where I took it home and shelved it, as I was mid Xmas rush, already had the replacement C10FSB working in its stead, and didn't want to put the Kapex back in service without inspection first.

Just as well - when I did have a chance to go over it , I found what while the laser was aligned and the deck (mostly....) flat, the 0 stop was as bad as ever, even with the most gentle operation of the adjustment knob. Additionally, the bevel now jammed at 42 degrees when on the "0-45" setting.




I emailed the the technician with video, and received a condescending reply essentially insisting that 'my saw is working normally', and that i should simply force through the resistance to 45deg - completely contradicting not only the very video I'd sent, but also his own previous advice about being gentle with the bevel stops.

A few more emails were exchanged with token suggestions about greasing the slides (which made the 0-stop problem worse), so I suggested I dismantle and attempt to fix it myself. This was met with a rather transparent statement that 'while dismantling will not void my warranty, any damage during this process will not be covered'.

Considering 'damage' was clearly already the present state, I elected to not risk it and ask for a refund. While this was notionally granted the next day, apparently it had to be done through the store of purchase. Their post-sales rep assured me the store credit would be approved immediately upon return of the saw,  and cleared me to deliver it directly to the factory (something I was told I couldn't do originally!), to save a repeat of the previous courier drama .

Despite making that 2 hour drive  (the 4th time...) to do their delivery for them that same afternoon, a week then passed with no further communication, to me or the retail store. After a number of unreturned calls and emails, I was informed that the refund approval had been 'stuck internally as they don't normally allow refunds' (?!?!), and would now be actioned that da...which actually ended up being the next day.

I have the money back now, but considering the work hours lost and k's driven (over 1000km in total), I've easily still come out of this worse off. I'm still not sure what's been more of a disappointment - the tool or the company, but I'm understanding why my local repair store (an independent who's been operating for some 30-odd years) has the strong opinions he does about this brand...

Anyway, thanks all for listening and contributing. Unsure if this is my last post on the forum, but appreciate having a place to document and share this experience.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2021, 11:40 PM by ahairoffsquare »

Offline ultane

  • Posts: 111
WoW!!! That’s very disappointing! I guess that Festool thinks that they are the only company that makes products for the consumer to chose from..
I might be wrong… Just ask my X...

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3700
  [scared] [eek] [scared]

My Amazon's purchase AND return experiences have been 1,000 x better than yours.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2021, 01:18 AM by ChuckS »