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Author Topic: kapex reb 120 BASE NOT FLAT AND FENCE NOT SQUARE  (Read 9876 times)

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Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4275
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2021, 02:07 PM »

Someone here said other companies can make flat saws. No, they can't. Not within the tolerance specs of this price point. But they just don't give you an opportunity to publicly complain about it.

I had never thought of checking the flatness of my Kapex until someone (in an older thread) brought it up. Nor did I check the previous miter saws I owned. In fact, I still haven't checked how flat my SawStop or bandsaw table is, since I've been happy with the results of the cuts. One thing that I do check when bought new as well as from time to time is the group of squares.

But FOG is not the only opportunity that people can voice their findings and opinions on Festool products or any other brands. There're at least three to four other forums -- some with more active participation, some less than FOG -- in which any woodworker can join and make "complaints" about any tools and brands. There're also YouTube reviews or Instagram posts that woodworkers do use to express their views on brands and tools.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 02:30 PM by ChuckM »

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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7801
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2021, 02:53 PM »
But FOG is not the only opportunity that people can voice their findings and opinions on Festool products or any other brands. There're at least three to four other forums -- some with more active participation, some less than FOG -- in which any woodworker can join and make "complaints" about any tools and brands. There're also YouTube reviews or Instagram posts that woodworkers do use to express their views on brands and tools.

Any of those forums run by the brand itself?

Offline usernumber1

  • Posts: 257
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2021, 03:04 PM »
i'm not seeing anyone complaining that they are unable to cut their pieces to spec. or is anyone having issues with their miters?
just a lot of measurements of the machine itself

i'm sure festool will fix things if you have issues or 'until you're happy'. that's a good spec right there



Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4275
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2021, 03:17 PM »
But FOG is not the only opportunity that people can voice their findings and opinions on Festool products or any other brands. There're at least three to four other forums -- some with more active participation, some less than FOG -- in which any woodworker can join and make "complaints" about any tools and brands. There're also YouTube reviews or Instagram posts that woodworkers do use to express their views on brands and tools.

Any of those forums run by the brand itself?

I'm referring to opportunities, not ownership.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 1188
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2021, 04:01 PM »
"...more quality control."

The head of Festool QA should pay a visit to the QA office of SawStop (if that has not already been done). She or he may learn a thing or two from them. I have had hands-on experience with or spoken to owners of 4 ICS, 5 PCS (including mine), 2 Contractor & 2 Jobsite (older version) SawStop saws. Zero complaints about their saws from Day 1.

How do they do that? The machines (up to 600 - 700 lbs (/)) are made in Taiwan, and shipped to this part of the world. How could they achieve and maintain the factory settings to spec. and most important, to the satisfaction of their customers? What QC process do they use? What equipment or test cuts (if any) do they put in place to be so successful? How about their sourcing of parts and metal? What kind of control do they have over their production partners, or assurance from them? What kind of people do they hire and train to be the gatekeepers? The fact-finding trip might not be possible before, but SawStop is now part of their family.

Comparing the flatness of a cast iron top to that of a mitre saw is a worthless comparison. They are not even remotely similar in construction.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4275
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2021, 08:19 PM »
I think you missed the point. It's not about the flatness or the Kapex.

Offline edwarmr

  • Posts: 326
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2021, 01:13 AM »
But the glue-the-paper-to-the-glass trick worked.  The glass apparently was quite flat.  The engine ran fine until I crashed the cart a year later and I then gave up on the hobby.

I expect it would work just as well on a Kapex.  But you didn't hear it from me if it totally messes up your saw. [eek]

I thought about this a lot after watching that video in the initial post as well as another video about flattening a miter saw on youtube.

Here’s the problem as I see it, please correct me if my thinking is wrong. Flattening a miter saw including the Kapex should work great IF… the turn table rotates on an axis parallel to the extension wings. If the axis of rotation is off at all then flattening with sandpaper will not solve the problem. It would make your saw perfectly flat if you leave it at the angle it was at when you flattened it. But as soon as you rotated it to another miter angle the benefits of flattening it are essentially gone.

I made these drawings to try to illustrate what I’m talking about (sorry they are very poorly done  [unsure]). I exaggerated the problem so it would make more sense visually. Hopefully these pictures illustrate what I’m trying to describe. This would be looking at the Kapex from the side. I realize a Kapex or any miter saw can’t rotate even close to 180° but I just did that in the picture to exaggerate what happens when rotating the saw after flattening with sandpaper if your turntable is not rotating parallel to the extension wings. Notice that once the miter angle is changed the turn table is no longer level with the extension wings.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 01:15 AM by edwarmr »

Offline edwarmr

  • Posts: 326
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2021, 01:24 AM »
With my Kapex I believe the axis the turn table rotates on is tilted like in the drawing I posted but way less severely. I believe it is because my casting is warped and not because the turntable is a different height than the extension wings. This explains why when I put downward pressure near the locking handle on my Kapex it becomes nearly dead flat. If I had my Kapex bolted to a bench instead of on the UG stand I’m using I wonder if that would solve things?

In reality though I haven’t had issues with my Kapex for what I’m using it for. I like it a lot. If I was cutting tall baseboard regularly I could see how it would be an issue though.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 553
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2021, 08:17 AM »
i'm sure festool will fix things if you have issues or 'until you're happy'. that's a good spec right there

The Kapex motor issues took a long time to fix and many people were not happy for years.


Online Cheese

  • Posts: 10295
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2021, 10:32 AM »
I wouldn't think that they would publish it, but if you wrote to them and said, "My Kapex base is 0.015" out of flat.  What is your specified tolerance for this part?" I would expect to hear back either with the actual tolerance or with a reply that said, "Your base is in/out of tolerance".

I'll put money on the fact that you'll not hear either of those responses from Festool...what you will hear is "Please send in the saw to our service department and make sure to include the completed repair request".

https://www.festoolusa.com/campaigns/microsites/onlinerepair

One of the issues for Festool is that they have no way to determine a customer's measuring capabilities with precision tools. Does this customer have a precision tool and does he/she know how to properly use it? So rather than proceeding down that rabbit hole, it's a lot more efficacious for both Festool & the customer to just send in the item for service. The few items I've sent in to Festool I've received back from them within 4-5 days. Their turn-around time is 48 hours.

It could be interesting though to send in a Kapex that is say .010" out of flat and if after servicing you measure it again and it is still .010" out, then inherent to that process, Festool's saying that .010" is within spec.  [smile]



Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4275
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2021, 10:44 AM »
Snip.
Does this customer have a precision tool and does he/she know how to properly use it?

You have a point here.

I recall in my teenage years rushing (a.k.a. speeding) a friend of mine who fell from a horse to the Emergency Room and telling the attendant nurse that my friend, in great pain, had a broken arm. Her immediate response:" How did you know it's a broken arm?" (An X-ray later showed he didn't break his arm.)

That's why without more info., such as photos showing what he used to check the saw, from the OP, we don't really know how good or bad the table is.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 10:49 AM by ChuckS »

Offline proudfatherde

  • Posts: 2
kapex reb 120 BASE NOT FLAT AND FENCE NOT SQUARE
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2021, 01:04 PM »
I just purchased a lightly used kapex REB120.  When I took it home I noticed that the base was not close to being flat and the fence was not close to 90 degrees from the base.

does anyone know of a good fix?  There is a guy on you tube that sands down the base to get it flat.

any thoughts?

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1728
Re: kapex reb 120 BASE NOT FLAT AND FENCE NOT SQUARE
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2021, 02:04 PM »
I just purchased a lightly used kapex REB120.  When I took it home I noticed that the base was not close to being flat and the fence was not close to 90 degrees from the base.

does anyone know of a good fix?  There is a guy on you tube that sands down the base to get it flat.

any thoughts?

The user manual should have information on how to adjust the fence and lasers.

Pictures of the concern would be extremely helpful in this situation.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10140
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: kapex reb 120 BASE NOT FLAT AND FENCE NOT SQUARE
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2021, 02:33 PM »
Merged two exact same topics.

Seth

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4275
Re: kapex reb 120 BASE NOT FLAT AND FENCE NOT SQUARE
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2021, 02:43 PM »

Pictures of the concern would be extremely helpful in this situation.
+1; +1; +1.

Offline proudfatherde

  • Posts: 2
Re: kapex reb 120 BASE NOT FLAT AND FENCE NOT SQUARE
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2021, 08:06 PM »
thanks for the responses.  tried to upload pic but it wont let me.  I used a woodpeckers ruler to check for flatness.  And I used feelr guages.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 4275
Re: kapex reb 120 BASE NOT FLAT AND FENCE NOT SQUARE
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2021, 08:16 PM »
Your file size is too big. Try file size of 500KB or smaller per image.

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 376
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2021, 09:18 PM »
One of the issues for Festool is that they have no way to determine a customer's measuring capabilities with precision tools. Does this customer have a precision tool and does he/she know how to properly use it?

I have no dog in this fight but in my case if I sent back the saw and Festool disputed my findings I would want to know their processes and expertise to see if it exceeded mine because I doubt it would and I wonder what the reaction would be when I proved them wrong with photos of the toolroom we have. I know that would exceed 99% of other users in expertise and equipment but it would be an interesting discussion.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 10295
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2021, 01:43 AM »
I have no dog in this fight but in my case if I sent back the saw and Festool disputed my findings I would want to know their processes and expertise to see if it exceeded mine because I doubt it would and I wonder what the reaction would be when I proved them wrong with photos of the toolroom we have. I know that would exceed 99% of other users in expertise and equipment but it would be an interesting discussion.

Mini...that's a long row to hoe.  [smile]

1. Good luck with you becoming privy to their processes because that's a 2-way street. To determine their processes it takes Festool confirming their process, otherwise, it's just supposition on your part and denial or obfuscation on Festool's part.

2. Also good luck in determining Festool's expertise, that'll be a slippery slope to navigate. Expertise based on:
A. Years of experience?
B. Years in the industry?
C. Number of patents?
D. The number of QA people?
E. The value of the equipment in their QC department?
F. The tolerance capabilities of their measuring/evaluation equipment?

How exactly is expertise measured? And if your expertise measurement methods are different than Festool's, there'll never be an agreed upon measurement standard which means nothing will ever be settled.

And as far as Festool's reaction when you prove them wrong...I'm not even going to go there..

If this was my fight I'd send in the saw and find out what Festool has to say. Once the saw was returned, I'd use the saw and see if I was happy with the results.

If I was still unhappy, I'd either sell the saw or modify it until I was happy. There's not a lot more that you can do.

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 376
Re: kapex reb 120 BASE NOT FLAT AND FENCE NOT SQUARE
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2021, 02:45 AM »
My point was not the manufacturing quality but the saw arriving back at Festool and in a service department where someone who repairs tools tells me that the thing is ok without proper equipment. They suppose I am not qualified to measure and don't have the expertise and I presume that they took a straight of unknown quality and a set of feeler gauges started measuring. I know it is an unlikely scenario but it would be an interesting conversation. It won't happen to me because I will never own a Kapex.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3929
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: kapex reb 120 BASE NOT FLAT AND FENCE NOT SQUARE
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2021, 07:11 AM »
My guess is that Festool is Ok with you never owning a Kapex.
Birdhunter

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 599
Re: kapex reb 120 BASE NOT FLAT AND FENCE NOT SQUARE
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2021, 07:18 PM »
All scms have strengths and weakness. If you need a dead flat surface get the current makita or buy a used 1214. It’s the only one with a one piece base. Please note these saws have other problems.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 1926
Re: kapex is not flat
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2021, 09:30 AM »
Of course, Festool might decide it is not in their best interst to reveal that tolerance.  In which case we can complain here.

Indeed, they have decided not to reveal that tolerance. Somehow that's the way of big companies.

But they're the only big company that gave you a place to complain, and that is somehow very uncharacteristic for a big company.

Someone here said other companies can make flat saws. No, they can't. Not within the tolerance specs of this price point. But they just don't give you an opportunity to publicly complain about it.

Actually, FOG is probably modeled after the HOG (Harley Owners' Group) and they have a similar website.  I suspect Festool was trying to achieve what Harley Davidson has:  Turning their products into a quasi-religious experience.  Harley would have a harder time doing that today with all the imitators out there now.  I think the allegiance to the company fosters improved products, so I applaud the effort.  But FOG is not the only big manufacturer to give members a place to complain.

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/groups/166-harley-owners-group-hog.html