Author Topic: ETS 150 Arc Fault (Read 3139 times)

Gj12 · « **on:** October 25, 2020, 04:37 PM »

I added a new electrical panel to the shop and was told all new breakers for 15 amp/120v need to be arc fault breakers. So I put one in.
All my festool (sanders and domino) seem to run fine off the CT. The ETS 150 trips the breaker.

I just put a traditional breaker in the panel and it’s fine. More of a heads up.

xedos · « **Reply #1 on:** October 25, 2020, 05:14 PM »

if you mean the old ETS150 , then I'd check out the inside for some electrical issue.

If you really meant the ETS EC150 - then I', not surprised then. It's brushless motor and electronic controller is much different than the other tools you mentioned.

Birdhunter · « **Reply #2 on:** October 25, 2020, 05:18 PM »

Is “arc fault” the same as “ground fault”?

xedos · « **Reply #3 on:** October 25, 2020, 05:25 PM »

Sorta - not exactly. GFI can detect arcing to ground paths, but not across paths.

Why I suggested looking into the sander if it's the non EC version.

Gj12 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 25, 2020, 08:26 PM »

Oh really. I assumed it would have been the other way with those models. Mine is not the brushless. I might look into it when it gets a break between jobs.

JD2720 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 25, 2020, 09:14 PM »

Electric motors do not play well with arc fault breakers.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #6 on:** October 25, 2020, 10:22 PM »

Quote from: JD2720 on October 25, 2020, 09:14 PM

Electric motors do not play well with arc fault breakers.

If you have your house wiring correct, and your tools are correctly functioning, there is no issues with arc fault breakers. NEC has required arc fault on all 110V circuits for many years now. When folks have issues with them, its A) the breaker is doing it's job and pointing out you have a wiring issues B) your tool as an issue and needs service/replacement. C) the particular arc fault breaker you have is bad (some early ones had some issues).

Folks need to stop thinking the arc fault breaker (the tech) is the issues and understand it exist because the issues that folks are trying to blame on the arc fault breaker.

woodferret · « **Reply #7 on:** October 26, 2020, 08:39 AM »

Sounds like the brushes on the ETS motor have worn down/mismatched. Atlas-machinery has FES-491363 on hand it seems.

JD2720 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 26, 2020, 10:19 AM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on October 25, 2020, 10:22 PM

Quote from: JD2720 on October 25, 2020, 09:14 PM
Electric motors do not play well with arc fault breakers.

If you have your house wiring correct, and your tools are correctly functioning, there is no issues with arc fault breakers. NEC has required arc fault on all 110V circuits for many years now. When folks have issues with them, its A) the breaker is doing it's job and pointing out you have a wiring issues B) your tool as an issue and needs service/replacement. C) the particular arc fault breaker you have is bad (some early ones had some issues).

Folks need to stop thinking the arc fault breaker (the tech) is the issues and understand it exist because the issues that folks are trying to blame on the arc fault breaker.

It is not me, I do not have any of them.
They have been banned in my county & the surrounding counties because of all of the problems they have caused for contractors & home owners.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #9 on:** October 26, 2020, 02:51 PM »

Quote from: JD2720 on October 26, 2020, 10:19 AM

Quote from: DeformedTree on October 25, 2020, 10:22 PM
Quote from: JD2720 on October 25, 2020, 09:14 PM
Electric motors do not play well with arc fault breakers.

If you have your house wiring correct, and your tools are correctly functioning, there is no issues with arc fault breakers. NEC has required arc fault on all 110V circuits for many years now. When folks have issues with them, its A) the breaker is doing it's job and pointing out you have a wiring issues B) your tool as an issue and needs service/replacement. C) the particular arc fault breaker you have is bad (some early ones had some issues).

Folks need to stop thinking the arc fault breaker (the tech) is the issues and understand it exist because the issues that folks are trying to blame on the arc fault breaker.

It is not me, I do not have any of them.
They have been banned in my county & the surrounding counties because of all of the problems they have caused for contractors & home owners.

Builders have pushed to get them removed from code because they cost more. Also they prevent them from doing shoddy wiring practices like you 14-3 to wire 2 separate circuits, builders/electricians would do that to save a few bucks. Such practices were part of the reason for mandating them. Same excuses and reasoning to stop something anytime code gets changed. Some early arc faults had issues. Plenty of folks live in houses now with them. I have all arc fault breakers on my 110V stuff, old stuff, new stuff, brushed stuff, brushless stuff, it all works just fine on them.

I have an ETS-EC 125, runs on arc fault breakers just fine.

Alanbach · « **Reply #10 on:** October 26, 2020, 05:42 PM »

@DeformedTree - Are they typically also used on 110v 20amp convenience plugs? In my shop, which is technically a garage, I have GFCI protected 20 amp plugs but no arc fault breakers.

JD2720 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 26, 2020, 07:09 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on October 26, 2020, 02:51 PM

Quote from: JD2720 on October 26, 2020, 10:19 AM
Quote from: DeformedTree on October 25, 2020, 10:22 PM
Quote from: JD2720 on October 25, 2020, 09:14 PM
Electric motors do not play well with arc fault breakers.

If you have your house wiring correct, and your tools are correctly functioning, there is no issues with arc fault breakers. NEC has required arc fault on all 110V circuits for many years now. When folks have issues with them, its A) the breaker is doing it's job and pointing out you have a wiring issues B) your tool as an issue and needs service/replacement. C) the particular arc fault breaker you have is bad (some early ones had some issues).

Folks need to stop thinking the arc fault breaker (the tech) is the issues and understand it exist because the issues that folks are trying to blame on the arc fault breaker.

It is not me, I do not have any of them.
They have been banned in my county & the surrounding counties because of all of the problems they have caused for contractors & home owners.

Builders have pushed to get them removed from code because they cost more. Also they prevent them from doing shoddy wiring practices like you 14-3 to wire 2 separate circuits, builders/electricians would do that to save a few bucks. Such practices were part of the reason for mandating them. Same excuses and reasoning to stop something anytime code gets changed. Some early arc faults had issues. Plenty of folks live in houses now with them. I have all arc fault breakers on my 110V stuff, old stuff, new stuff, brushed stuff, brushless stuff, it all works just fine on them.

I have an ETS-EC 125, runs on arc fault breakers just fine.

A ETS-EC sander is brushless. They will work fine on an arc fault breaker, because they do not create an arc when they run like brushed motors do..

DeformedTree · « **Reply #12 on:** October 26, 2020, 08:09 PM »

Quote from: Alanbach on October 26, 2020, 05:42 PM

@DeformedTree - Are they typically also used on 110v 20amp convenience plugs? In my shop, which is technically a garage, I have GFCI protected 20 amp plugs but no arc fault breakers.

Code currently calls for them on all 110V circuits, not just plugs, but lights, etc. Everything. On circuits that need GFCI (bath/kitchen/basement/garage/outdoor there are dual GFCI/AFCI breakers (not to be confused with Combo's).

Any big box store will now sell them in 15A and 20A for any brand of panel they carry.

Not all states are IRC, and as was mentioned, some states rolled back the AFCI provisions because builders complained like they do about everything and used stories from the very early days of them (20 years ago), to make them sound terrible.

Recently there have been some AFCI outlets introduced.

Even if you practice excellent wiring practices, they are good to have just incase the wiring was bad, but also, you never know when someone is going to pound a nail into a wall in the wrong spot.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #13 on:** October 26, 2020, 08:14 PM »

Quote from: JD2720 on October 26, 2020, 07:09 PM

A ETS-EC sander is brushless. They will work fine on an arc fault breaker, because they do not create an arc when they run like brushed motors do..

Right, my comment was just that brushed verses unbrushed, it doesn't matter. I run brushed tools on AFCI circuits just fine too.

If someone is having an issue, they should really work the issue (swap tools around), swap breakers around (or go buy a new AFCI), and if the problem keeps persisting, get an electrician as you may have an issue with the wiring that needs to be fixed before a fire happens. Pulling an AFCI out and putting a old breaker in is putting a penny in the fuse holder, or oversizing the fuse until it stops popping.

Gj12 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 26, 2020, 10:01 PM »

Thanks @woodferret and @xedos it’s probably the brushes. I’ll order some and switch them.
I’m actually happy to have the arc breakers (I still have half the 15amps circuits on the arc and will switch the other breaker back soon).They seem smart to have in a workshop.

JD2720 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 27, 2020, 06:33 AM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on October 26, 2020, 08:14 PM

Pulling an AFCI out and putting a old breaker in is putting a penny in the fuse holder, or oversizing the fuse until it stops popping.

If that were the case, then no insurance company would insure a house without AFCI breakers. As we all know, there are many many times more houses without AFCI breakers than there are with AFCI breakers. The only ones the insurance companies will not insure are the ones that have screw in or barrel fuses.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #16 on:** October 27, 2020, 10:12 AM »

Quote from: JD2720 on October 27, 2020, 06:33 AM

Quote from: DeformedTree on October 26, 2020, 08:14 PM

Pulling an AFCI out and putting a old breaker in is putting a penny in the fuse holder, or oversizing the fuse until it stops popping.

If that were the case, then no insurance company would insure a house without AFCI breakers. As we all know, there are many many times more houses without AFCI breakers than there are with AFCI breakers. The only ones the insurance companies will not insure are the ones that have screw in or barrel fuses.

Give it time and they will not cover them. No different than any other advancement over time. Many no longer will ensure knob-and-tube. Others will take issue with houses with aluminum wiring, or possible mixes of alum-copper. Insurance companies still cover houses with fuses, lots of housing stock with them. But like any situation like that, over time, they can/do decide to no longer cover, or just simply raise the rates on houses with stuff that is no longer the way it's done. Just think of the last time you got homeowners insurance and the questions they asked about wiring, roofing materials, asbestos, etc, they are gauging the risk factors of your house.

Obviously wiring without AFCI works, and has for 100 years. But we can now do better. The situation isn't any different than cars. You don't need an airbag or a lot of other safety systems. They do improve your outcome in a crash, some might even reduce the chance of a crash. If your car has these systems, your insurance company gives you a reduced rate.

From the NFPA

"Electrical distribution or lighting equipment ranked first in direct property damage, and third among the major fire causes in the number of home fires, fourth in home fire deaths, and tied for third in home fire injuries."

JimH2 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 27, 2020, 11:48 AM »

An alternative solution though not as convenient is to run a new circuit or two for your workshop using regular breakers and outlets. If you are willing to step up in price you can purchase outlets without the safety shutters on them. Another "safety" device that adds cost with little to no return on the cost of the addition.

The problem with safety is diminishing returns. At first the changes are significant (consider lap belts, shoulder belts, airbags, crush zones, etc). They all helped things tremendously. Once we got beyond a handful of airbags the return on the cost is negligible. We have to consider that someone is plowing down the road in 1 to 2 ton mass of steel at high speed. There will be injuries and deaths.

I'd say the various electronic warning and prevention systems are far more valuable than adding that 6th or 7th airbag. Avoiding an accident is a better tactic than building up defenses to prepare for the worst. The idea is that you need a mix of safety devices and common sense. AFCI on every circuit goes far too far, adding a lot of cost without much measurable return. Same goes for outlet "shutters".

DeformedTree · « **Reply #18 on:** October 27, 2020, 05:51 PM »

Quote from: JimH2 on October 27, 2020, 11:48 AM

An alternative solution though not as convenient is to run a new circuit or two for your workshop using regular breakers and outlets. If you are willing to step up in price you can purchase outlets without the safety shutters on them. Another "safety" device that adds cost with little to no return on the cost of the addition.

The problem with safety is diminishing returns. At first the changes are significant (consider lap belts, shoulder belts, airbags, crush zones, etc). They all helped things tremendously. Once we got beyond a handful of airbags the return on the cost is negligible. We have to consider that someone is plowing down the road in 1 to 2 ton mass of steel at high speed. There will be injuries and deaths.

I'd say the various electronic warning and prevention systems are far more valuable than adding that 6th or 7th airbag. Avoiding an accident is a better tactic than building up defenses to prepare for the worst. The idea is that you need a mix of safety devices and common sense. AFCI on every circuit goes far too far, adding a lot of cost without much measurable return. Same goes for outlet "shutters".

I don't disagree on diminishing returns on a lot of safety items. I wouldn't put AFCI in that list though, I would place it as a solid improvement. The flaw is not mandating interchangeability of breakers among brands, and or allowing mixing breakers. All 1" breakers interchange, sometimes you even seen brands re-lable the competitors breakers instead of developing their own. The AFCI/GFCI cost a lot because each brand has a self monopoly because inspectors won't approve a setup with mixed brands. For a new house, it's not a small price increase. But if insurance gives you a break, then it doesn't take you many years to pay for that change and start saving. Builders never see the long term savings, thus why they push back on things that have an upfront cost.

The shutters are a mixed bag. Sometimes they don't work well, others they are fine. I do like it keeps dust and such out, but also if you have little kids in your house, you can appreciate them. I would assume most of us as kids shoved something in an outlet at least once and got a shock. New parents can see value in them that retired folks may not.

Bob D. · « **Reply #19 on:** October 28, 2020, 07:09 AM »

"New parents can see value in them that retired folks may not."

Lots of retired folks like me who CAN see the value as we have grandkids to worry about.