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Author Topic: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?  (Read 2913 times)

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Offline CCWoodcraft

  • Posts: 4
I was getting substandard alignment results from my DF 700 and I initially thought it was user error.  After looking into it I found that the horizontal axis of the plunge cut was off by >.1mm.  I sent the tool into Festool repair and they sent it back with the attached samples demonstrating the problem and no note.  Am I missing something?  I checked the tool and the problem is still there. 

My expectation is that this should be unacceptable for a professional level tool.  What am I missing?

Edit:  changed .01 to .1.  Bad maths.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2022, 02:17 PM by CCWoodcraft »

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Offline ChuckS

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Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2022, 05:18 PM »
Were the registration surfaces checked flat and free of debris? I'm assuming the arrows are pointing to the non-registration surfaces. If the arrows are pointing to the registration surfaces, also check that the pieces are uniform in thickness.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2022, 05:22 PM by ChuckS »

Offline CCWoodcraft

  • Posts: 4
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2022, 07:02 PM »
Were the registration surfaces checked flat and free of debris? I'm assuming the arrows are pointing to the non-registration surfaces. If the arrows are pointing to the registration surfaces, also check that the pieces are uniform in thickness.

These are the samples that Festool made.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9877
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2022, 07:44 PM »
I don’t consider a difference in planes of .004” to be significant considering it’s a hand-clamped, hand-held tool. Machine that same piece of wood in a steel vise on a Bridgeport, ya, then that .004” becomes an issue.

Just for fun, try clamping the 700 to the wood and see what you get.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2022, 08:01 PM »
[ Specified attachment is not available ]
Were the registration surfaces checked flat and free of debris? I'm assuming the arrows are pointing to the non-registration surfaces. If the arrows are pointing to the registration surfaces, also check that the pieces are uniform in thickness.

These are the samples that Festool made.

My questions are still valid, regardless of who milled the mortises.

If the arrow points to the registration surface, what needs to be measured is the distance shown in red in the sketch.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 493
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2022, 08:06 PM »
Agree with Cheese, when you get significantly below 0.010"/0.25mm with woodworking tools and wood workpieces you are at the limit of repeatable results without taking extraordinary measures.

Online Birdhunter

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Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2022, 08:59 PM »
I sometimes get slanted mortises with my 700, but never with my 500. My guess is that the dynamics of drilling into wood with a large bit torques the cutter into a climb. I find that a slower plunge lessens the slant effect. Not a mechanical engineer so this is just a guess.
Birdhunter

Online Cheese

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Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2022, 09:05 PM »
Not a mechanical engineer so this is just a guess.

With that answer…you could become an honorary ME.  [big grin]

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7791
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2022, 04:25 AM »
I don't understand why people think tolerances of 0 are possible with a living, breathing material like wood. A result of > .1 mm is excellent already and not a reason to complain, or even suspect you have a faulty tool. Of course Festool send it back without doing anything to it.

Online Birdhunter

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Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2022, 05:36 AM »
I graduated with an EE degree followed with a Masters in Systems Engineering. However, most of what I really needed to know, I learned on the job either from other people or from recovering from my mistakes.

My woodworking began long before the internet was even conceived and when television only had 3 grainy grayish channels. If the internet existed when I started with all its wonderful information, my craft would have been accelerated greatly.
Birdhunter

Offline JD2720

  • Posts: 1259
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2022, 11:08 AM »
I have been using the 500 Domino since they became available in the US. I have been using the 700 for many years. I have never checked if the mortises were perfectly parallel with edge. Because I have worked with wood, I see no reason to.
I converted .1 mm to an inch & it comes up as zero. I got out my digital caliper & set it to .1 mm. I my opinion Festool has done a great job with the Domino.



 

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2022, 11:42 AM »

     .1mm seems that it should be accurate enough.  But "twisted" / non-parallel domino mortises can definitely be an issue even if they are not off by much. Especially since the mating mortises will be flipped in relation.

     I have had this be a problem but not with  .1mm .

  @CCWoodcraft could you elaborate on the alignment issues? Is this just measurement, or are you having problems getting actual pieces to mate?

   Seth
« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 11:44 AM by SRSemenza »

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3700
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2022, 12:45 PM »
Is 0.1mm -- about the thickness of an A4 size paper -- a lot? It depends on what the build or joinery is, and the tolerance of the individual woodworker.

If I built a cabinet out of plywood for my kitchen or shop, that wouldn't be a big deal. But for something that demands exactness, 0.1mm is too much for my taste:





Offline smorgasbord

  • Posts: 77
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2022, 01:11 PM »
Nice! What kind of Domino jigging did you make/have to cut that?
And in pine? Was that a test?

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3700
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2022, 01:22 PM »
It was a simple pine stand.



The trick is a complementary stop block, and accurate miter cuts -- I used the Kapex. You can do it on the table saw like Tage Frid, but as he admitted, it's "very difficult to make."




Offline smorgasbord

  • Posts: 77
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2022, 03:09 PM »
The trick is a complementary stop block, and accurate miter cuts -- I used the Kapex. You can do it on the table saw like Tage Frid, but as he admitted, it's "very difficult to make."

I meant jigging for the Domino cuts into the angled ends.

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3700
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2022, 04:08 PM »
No jig was used with the domino machine, just placement lines. To ensure consistency and dead-on marking, I made a cradle to mark the pencil lines.



Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1654
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2022, 05:01 PM »
I have done those, as sort of proof of concept and testing reality at the same time. The real challenge is actually pushing them together. It needs to happen all at once. I tested each pair separately to confirm before gluing and just went for it, assuming that if I did get it together dry, it would not come back apart.
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Offline ChuckS

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Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2022, 05:56 PM »
For an easier assembly, mill the mortises before cutting the miters:



Regardless of which approach is used, the clamping and checking should be the same:





Offline CCWoodcraft

  • Posts: 4
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2022, 03:25 PM »
(Attachment Link)
Were the registration surfaces checked flat and free of debris? I'm assuming the arrows are pointing to the non-registration surfaces. If the arrows are pointing to the registration surfaces, also check that the pieces are uniform in thickness.

These are the samples that Festool made.


My questions are still valid, regardless of who milled the mortises.

If the arrow points to the registration surface, what needs to be measured is the distance shown in red in the sketch.

I clamped it and registered off the base before I sent it in.  The issue is the horizontal axis of the cutter is out of alignment with the entire fence assemble including the base.  While the amount may not seem like much, if using exposed tenons the skew is definitely visible.  The skew can also be fixed by using a shim.  My thought is that the tool should be more accurate than this.  >1mm is actually quite a bit considering that it is over ~1cm.  This is really just bad QC.  The comments below saying working with wood doesn't need to be accurate are not relevant and aren't considering all of the uses of the tool.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 03:30 PM by CCWoodcraft »

Offline CCWoodcraft

  • Posts: 4
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2022, 03:28 PM »
Not a mechanical engineer so this is just a guess.

With that answer…you could become an honorary ME.  [big grin]

Too late [tongue] I'm already an engineer, if industrial engineering counts. ;)

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3700
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2022, 04:43 PM »
Snip.
The issue is the horizontal axis of the cutter is out of alignment with the entire fence assemble including the base.  While the amount may not seem like much, if using exposed tenons the skew is definitely visible.  The skew can also be fixed by using a shim.

Snip.
That's more than a 0.1mm problem.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2022, 06:05 PM »
Is it one millimeter or point one millimeter?

 Seth

Offline Eric J

  • Posts: 43
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2022, 10:16 PM »
I sometimes get slanted mortises with my 700, but never with my 500. My guess is that the dynamics of drilling into wood with a large bit torques the cutter into a climb. I find that a slower plunge lessens the slant effect. Not a mechanical engineer so this is just a guess.

I don't own a Domino - do the cutters rotate in the same direction, or is one clockwise and the other counterclockwise? I believe the former would result in a net torque around the center of the slot.

EDIT: Duh, Dominos only have a single cutter.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 09:01 PM by Eric J »

Online Cheese

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Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2022, 10:45 PM »
There is only one cutter.

Online Birdhunter

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Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2022, 06:23 AM »
As to two cutters, I use a Mafell doweling machine that uses two cutters. They both turn in the same direction and the holes have always been perfectly aligned.
Birdhunter

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 3700
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2022, 10:11 AM »
Snip.
 I sent the tool into Festool repair and they sent it back with the attached samples demonstrating the problem and no note.   Snip.

I missed this part.

I suppose your machine is still under warranty. But whether you paid to get the fix done or not, that treatment was not customer-oriented. Not every user is technically oriented, and the technician had a responsibility and duty to explain what had been fixed or not been fixed because there was nothing to fix. If the technician who handled your fix was following the standard departmental procedures (of not providing any feedback after a fix), the procedures need to be revisited and improved.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 10:22 AM by ChuckS »

Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 259
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2022, 05:30 PM »
Is it one millimeter or point one millimeter?

 Seth

I was thinking the same, but the sample pieces in the above photos show .1mm difference, not 1mm.

Offline tsmi243

  • Posts: 274
Re: DF 700 Domino Joiner Quality Issue. How bad is bad enough?
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2022, 05:47 PM »
Snip.
The issue is the horizontal axis of the cutter is out of alignment with the entire fence assemble including the base.  While the amount may not seem like much, if using exposed tenons the skew is definitely visible.  The skew can also be fixed by using a shim.

Snip.
That's more than a 0.1mm problem.

I think this is the crux of the issue.  As measured, that's a fantastic tolerance.  As described, it's not good at all.  These can't both be true.  And calipers on softwood isn't a great matchup, so I'm not sure I'd trust the measurements. 

What's a better test?  Maybe cut two mortises, about 6" apart, insert dominoes, and then set a straightedge on top, spanning the two.  Zoom in on the dominoes, and see what kind of angle is visible. 

Then, see if that angle is the same on each one.  If not, you've got technique problems to sort out.