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Author Topic: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)  (Read 7735 times)

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Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 157
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2021, 03:46 PM »
The CT still continues to draw at the same level of vacuum until the hose is full. Early on I did this right up to the point where the hose was so full that the chips had no where to go. It was totally my fault, but totally amazing that it could fill the hose and still suck.
This is smart engineering on Festool’s part: most shop vacs extend their intake filter down into the collection chamber, where debris will build up around it as the chamber gets full and block it off. Festool makes theirs a flat filter in the roof of the chamber, so gravity is always working to pull debris away from the filter and keep it as open as possible. It won’t be blocked off until the chamber is almost completely packed. This means the nominal capacity of the vacuum in liters is only a tiny bit larger than the actual capacity it can fill in practice, which is unusual.

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Offline mino

  • Posts: 542
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2021, 08:25 PM »
I was in fact quite surprised by the small diameter tubing in the CT-VA ..
This is necessary. To work well a cyclone must achieve a certain air speed. With sanders the air volume is generally pretty low, so CT-VA must use uses tight air tubing to work even at the low air flows required.

This still provides mostly the equivalent of a 32/27 hose resistance so is acceptable for a TS55 and yet is usable with sanders. Any cyclone optimized for a higher air flow will have a lower efficiency at the typical sander air flow values to the point of making it pointless.
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2021, 09:50 AM »
Well thanks to all who have contributed to what was a fairly "innocent" first question by me :-)  Being new to FOG, but not new to woodworking forums (used to moderate UKW), I'm impressed by the healthy community out there.

Cypren, your input makes a lot of sense, not least because, like me, you're data driven and the empirical measurement is difficult to argue against since it removes many of the variables.  I did make specific mention in the first place that my "measure of suction" was anecdotal and I'll tell you now what it was specifically. I placed my hand over the 27mm hose from a brand new CT26 with a brand new long life bag being used for the first time.  That was compared to a normal domestic Henry Hoover (which of course also has a HEPA filter and works very well).  The Henry unquestionably has a bit more "suck" and I think that was what slightly deflated my balloon because i hold Festool in very esteem.  I think my original assumption was that not only would it be a dream managing tool dust at source but that it would deal with the post work clean up too.  Thats the bit my expectation is slightly changing as a result of this debate.  Perhaps, OK for bits n bobs from the hose end, but maybe not with a floor gulping type tool and expect to hoover round the ground of the workshop like I was using the Henry for??  I will add the 36mm hose as that clearly seems superior.  I'm now slightly annoyed I didnt get this choice at purchase because I'm clearly about to shell out another £140 odd to make the hose I only bought last week redundant!  Thats "taking the mickey" a bit is it not?  Why dont Festool offer a hose upgrade cost at the point of sale?? 

But anyway, input appreciated and useful.  Many thanks.  Bob

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 767
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2021, 11:14 AM »
All I can say is I purchased a CT33 in 2008 for my hobby shop and it sucks today as well as it did on day one.

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 157
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2021, 04:47 PM »
That was compared to a normal domestic Henry Hoover (which of course also has a HEPA filter and works very well).  The Henry unquestionably has a bit more "suck" and I think that was what slightly deflated my balloon because i hold Festool in very esteem.  I think my original assumption was that not only would it be a dream managing tool dust at source but that it would deal with the post work clean up too.  Thats the bit my expectation is slightly changing as a result of this debate.  Perhaps, OK for bits n bobs from the hose end, but maybe not with a floor gulping type tool and expect to hoover round the ground of the workshop like I was using the Henry for??  I will add the 36mm hose as that clearly seems superior.  I'm now slightly annoyed I didnt get this choice at purchase because I'm clearly about to shell out another £140 odd to make the hose I only bought last week redundant!

Couple of thoughts here:

First, if you want to compare two shop vacs, to make it apples-to-apples, there are really three main things you need to make sure are equal: the grade of filtration, the type of bag in use, and the diameter and length of the hose being used.

Shop vacs (at least in the US; I can’t speak for elsewhere) usually come with a very coarse filter, no bag, and a very large diameter, short hose. (Ex: my Ridgid came with a 65mm, 2m hose.) This is an ideal configuration for cleanup of random trash on the floor: it’s mostly large, coarse material, not fine particulate, so it won’t spray a ton back in the air or clog the filter. It’s meant for wet and dry work that would wreck a dust bag. It’s expected that you’ll attach tube extensions and a head to the short hose so you can use it comfortably at standing height while sweeping up the floor, so a long hose would just mean worse airflow and more hassle. The enormous diameter of the hose makes it cumbersome to maneuver, but ensures it can pick up objects in a wide radius without obstruction.

In comparison, the CT series come with a HEPA filter, a fleece bag that acts as a secondary filter, and a thin, long hose (27mm, 3.5m) that’s very flexible and has a mesh cover to both protect the hose and ensure that it slips and slides off of both itself and obstacles in the environment rather than catching on them. (Necessary inclusion for the pedantic: the CT 48 comes with a 36mm hose, and the 36 AC comes with a special hose for the Planex.) This is a configuration that assumes you want to use this machine connected to a power tool, where the hose needs to move around freely, stay out of your way, and be as light as possible. It assumes that you prioritize maximum filtration, because you’re working with fine dust with major safety concerns, and can’t just expel it back into the air. It assumes that the filter is very expensive (US$100, compared to $13 for the Ridgid’s standard filter) and so you want a secondary filter (the bag) to ensure that you don’t have to replace the primary one regularly, even though this is going to impede airflow even further.

This is what I meant earlier when I said it’s sports car vs. pickup truck: these are both “vehicles to get from one place to another”, but they assume the driver intends to use them very, very differently, so they’ve prioritized completely different tradeoffs in design.

In this case, however, you can actually turn the CT into a pretty effective shop vac, but it requires changing out the accessories. Specifically, you want the industrial cleaning set (454770), which includes a 50mm x 2.5m hose and extensions and accessories to go with it. To maximize airflow, you would also want to remove the bag and swap the HEPA filter for the one micron filter element (496170), which will have much better airflow and still capture most environmental dust, but not the really fine particles. You may also want to add the Large Industrial Floor Nozzle (452910) and aluminum extension tube (447599).

The thing is that by the time you’ve done all of this, you’ve basically spent at least another $200 (and about $500 if you bought the nice metal accessories) to turn your $800-$1000 dust extractor into a $100 shop vac from Home Depot. A quieter, better built one (as AvE would say, “made in Jcherrrrmany”), but otherwise pretty ordinary shop vac.

This really just doesn’t make a lot of sense if you’re in a workshop and can just have a second machine. It might make sense for jobsite workers who can’t afford the space to take a second vacuum, but even then, it’s a hassle to switch the filters and accessories around every time you want to flip from dust extraction to site cleanup, and time is money.

The only way I can see this being useful is for people who really can’t take more than one vacuum with them, have to obey rigid workplace safety laws regarding dust filtration, and have an enormous mess to clean up when they’re done, such that the time spent switching over the accessories is paid off in the time saved during cleanup.

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2021, 06:00 PM »
Righto....thanks Cypren.  That makes perfect sense.  So I will reverse my expectation that what is clearly a "Porsche" for dangerous and very fine tool dust collection at source, shouldn't be confused with a "Mac truck" for dealing with anything on the floor.

One assumes that once the Porsche has done its job, there shouldn't be any fine particles in the environment anyway (not much at least) and therefore its entirely sensible to use a regular shop vac for "hoovering" rather than DX as such.

So I'll keep my Henry for general cleanup and leave the festool for "tool at source" work.

Er.....does anyone want to buy a 27mm hose and a lifetime bag....hardly used :-)

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2021, 06:04 PM »
And while I'm on....I'm about to replace my 14 year old Dewalt SCMS.  You guessed it....the Kapex 120 is calling me!  Before I take out a small additional mortgage....is there anything I should know about that sucker?

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 716
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2021, 06:07 PM »
It's really awesome to see a reference to AvE! That guy is fantastic, been watching him for years.
He would also say it was Skookum.
CSX
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PS420 + Base kit
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OF1400
MFK700 (2)
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Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1017
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2021, 06:41 PM »
And while I'm on....I'm about to replace my 14 year old Dewalt SCMS.  You guessed it....the Kapex 120 is calling me!  Before I take out a small additional mortgage....is there anything I should know about that sucker?

Easy: Get a 5m 36mm hose, cut 1-1,5m off of the hose (buy a set of tool end and vac end too) and make this one for the KS 120  [big grin] Use the other better half for shop clean up and air hungry tools. Oh, and maybe buy another hold down clamp, for the other side. Need no more. [wink]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1017
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2021, 06:48 PM »
It's really awesome to see a reference to AvE! That guy is fantastic, been watching him for years.
He would also say it was Skookum.

Another avid AvE viewer here, I can hear the scookum superlatives if he ever was to examine a CT’s suction by any means..
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 157
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2021, 06:58 PM »
Er.....does anyone want to buy a 27mm hose and a lifetime bag....hardly used :-)

This will be personal preference, but I’d recommend you hang onto both of those for the moment. You’ll find the 27mm hose is quite a lot more convenient to use with tools that don’t need anywhere near the maximum suction the vacuum can provide (sanders, track saw, drilling, etc). There’s a reason that it’s the default hose: they’re not just including it to be cheap. For work of this kind, you’ll also find the long-life bag will save you a lot of money in the long run over using replaceable bags, particularly if you don’t have a cyclone attached to the machine. Long-life bag + direct 36mm hose attachment is still going to provide you better suction than disposable bag + cyclone + 36mm hose, if that’s what you’re interested in.

But remember, for the vast majority of power tools, the suction of this machine is way overkill. You have to turn it way down when sanding unless you want to leave swirl marks all over your work surface. The last and worst-performing configuration I listed in my airflow test chart is actually the one I use day in and day out! I’m giving up 45% of the vacuum’s actual airflow performance and don’t care because what’s left over is still plenty strong for the tools I’m using it with. The only times that I switch things around for better performance are when I’m using heavyweight tools that throw off an enormous amount of material: the HL 850 planer, the OF 2200 router, and the Kapex. In those cases, I usually bypass the cyclone and go direct to the vacuum because the extra airflow really matters. For the router and planer, I’m using the 50mm extension hose that comes with the boom arm connected to the 36mm hose on the boom itself. For the Kapex, I keep a 36mm hose permanently attached at my miter saw station so I can just wheel the CT over and plug it in when I’m using it, rather than fussing with trying to position the boom. (Eventually, I’ll probably replace this with a direct hookup to the shop dust collector, but I haven’t built a full shop ducting system yet and am still wheeling machines around with hoses at the moment.)

And while I'm on....I'm about to replace my 14 year old Dewalt SCMS.  You guessed it....the Kapex 120 is calling me!  Before I take out a small additional mortgage....is there anything I should know about that sucker?

The way I would summarize it is “it’s a lovely saw most people shouldn’t buy”. What it will give you over your DeWalt is cleaner cut quality (because of the thinner blade), better factory calibration, better dust collection, the industry’s best hold-down clamp, and the ability to butt it right up against a wall if space is a constraint because it uses a rail-forward design which only one other saw on the market (Bosch) uses. (I don’t have the mobile stand and wings for it, but what I’ve generally read is that they’re “okay”; the Fastcap wings are supposedly better than the OEM ones.)

If budget is a concern, though, these features probably aren’t worth paying 3x the price of a new DeWalt. I love my Kapex, but I also recognize it was a pure luxury purchase and for practical purposes was roughly equivalent to buying gold-plated tools for bragging rights. But I’m not a professional, and those who are may have a different perspective on it to share.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1017
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2021, 07:01 PM »
I was in fact quite surprised by the small diameter tubing in the CT-VA ..
This is necessary. To work well a cyclone must achieve a certain air speed. With sanders the air volume is generally pretty low, so CT-VA must use uses tight air tubing to work even at the low air flows required.

This still provides mostly the equivalent of a 32/27 hose resistance so is acceptable for a TS55 and yet is usable with sanders. Any cyclone optimized for a higher air flow will have a lower efficiency at the typical sander air flow values to the point of making it pointless.

Mino, I think you’re right. After a closer look I see that the inlet is tapered from 50mm and down quite steep before the air enters the cyclone itself. This will create heat build up into the air while the air compresses and speed probably increases before entering the cyclone chamber, where it expands again. The outlet tube is also quite narrow, and the connected hose to vac is then wider to let the air expand again.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2923
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2021, 07:03 PM »

Easy: Get a 5m 36mm hose, cut 1-1,5m off of the hose (buy a set of tool end and vac end too) and make this one for the KS 120  [big grin] Use the other better half for shop clean up and air hungry tools. Oh, and maybe buy another hold down clamp, for the other side. Need no more. [wink]

Another hold-down clamp PLUS

an extra rubber dust shroud so you can make a sawstache shroud for those occasions when you need that extra dust extraction -- such as cutting MDF, or worse, dadoing MDF stock.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 07:09 PM by ChuckM »

Offline tsmi243

  • Posts: 131
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2021, 09:50 PM »
One assumes that once the Porsche has done its job,

You don't need to assume.  It's not impossible that there's a problem with yours.  At least in the US, any Festool dealer will have demo units to try out, and see if they feel the same to your hand as the one you bought. 

I've gone through a LOT of different vacuums, and while the overall CFM isn't amazing on the small hose, the actual static pressure really, truly is.  I can't imagine someone stopping it with their hand and feeling underwhelmed. 

Offline Christophl

  • Posts: 38
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2021, 11:19 AM »
I know this is a festool forum, but I don't think you all have seen the HEPA filter bag on the Rigids.  There's absolutely no dirty dust ejected from the vac. I use mine with a Dust Deputy keeping the bag really clean.  Having said that, I'd still like a Festool vac for use with my 'future' ETS 150.

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 871
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2021, 11:57 AM »
I know this is a festool forum, but I don't think you all have seen the HEPA filter bag on the Rigids.  There's absolutely no dirty dust ejected from the vac. I use mine with a Dust Deputy keeping the bag really clean.  Having said that, I'd still like a Festool vac for use with my 'future' ETS 150.

It feels like HEPA has been a long time coming on other brands in the USA.  I know that when I originally got my CT-MINI back in 2016, it was one of the few HEPA options I could find that was also in stock locally.  Things certainly have changed since then.  I even wonder out loud if OSHA is nearly as strict on this in the USA as inspectors seem to be in the EU and UK; everything I know is anecdotal, at best.  I see crews here in town dry-scraping 100-year-old buildings without PPE or any sort of other containment, which I know is a violation.  I'm not sure that I could find a lead-certified contractor if I wanted one, honestly.

It appears that there's both a retrofit kit for the cheaper Ridgid vacs as well as factory HEPA models.  I wonder how the $50 bag/filter retrofit kit for the Ridgid comes out in terms of overall cost over time.  I haven't looked closely at what they're charging for bags on their HEPA-from-the-factory models.

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 157
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2021, 12:29 PM »
I know this is a festool forum, but I don't think you all have seen the HEPA filter bag on the Rigids.  There's absolutely no dirty dust ejected from the vac. I use mine with a Dust Deputy keeping the bag really clean.  Having said that, I'd still like a Festool vac for use with my 'future' ETS 150.
I’d be very curious to see what the airflow performance on a HEPA-certified Ridgid looks like relative to the baseline model. My guess is that it’s a lot like a CT, since they have similar-power motors. I would expect the Festool to have better static pressure, though, just because its mechanism is much more tightly-sealed end to end, and I would also expect it to have waaaaay less suction loss as it fills because of the improved filter placement I mentioned earlier in the thread.

I’m kind of curious how feasible it is to retrofit a non-HEPA vac to “effective” HEPA standards. I remember in one of the Festool Live episodes Sedge mentions the new HEPA filters for the CT 48 AC HEPA and the 36 that are robust enough to survive the autoclean pulse. He then says something along the lines of, “so can you put one of these in an older 36 AC?” and goes on to dance around the topic saying that while it’ll fit, HEPA certification is done on the entire vacuum end to end, not just the filter. Maybe I’m wrong, but I took him to essentially be implying “yes, you can drop one of these filters in your 36 AC and turn it into a HEPA vac; the lawyers just won’t let me say that because we didn’t have that specific model certified that way when you bought it.”

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2021, 07:07 PM »
Er.....does anyone want to buy a 27mm hose and a lifetime bag....hardly used :-)

This will be personal preference, but I’d recommend you hang onto both of those for the moment. You’ll find the 27mm hose is quite a lot more convenient to use with tools that don’t need anywhere near the maximum suction the vacuum can provide (sanders, track saw, drilling, etc). There’s a reason that it’s the default hose: they’re not just including it to be cheap. For work of this kind, you’ll also find the long-life bag will save you a lot of money in the long run over using replaceable bags, particularly if you don’t have a cyclone attached to the machine. Long-life bag + direct 36mm hose attachment is still going to provide you better suction than disposable bag + cyclone + 36mm hose, if that’s what you’re interested in.

But remember, for the vast majority of power tools, the suction of this machine is way overkill. You have to turn it way down when sanding unless you want to leave swirl marks all over your work surface. The last and worst-performing configuration I listed in my airflow test chart is actually the one I use day in and day out! I’m giving up 45% of the vacuum’s actual airflow performance and don’t care because what’s left over is still plenty strong for the tools I’m using it with. The only times that I switch things around for better performance are when I’m using heavyweight tools that throw off an enormous amount of material: the HL 850 planer, the OF 2200 router, and the Kapex. In those cases, I usually bypass the cyclone and go direct to the vacuum because the extra airflow really matters. For the router and planer, I’m using the 50mm extension hose that comes with the boom arm connected to the 36mm hose on the boom itself. For the Kapex, I keep a 36mm hose permanently attached at my miter saw station so I can just wheel the CT over and plug it in when I’m using it, rather than fussing with trying to position the boom. (Eventually, I’ll probably replace this with a direct hookup to the shop dust collector, but I haven’t built a full shop ducting system yet and am still wheeling machines around with hoses at the moment.)

And while I'm on....I'm about to replace my 14 year old Dewalt SCMS.  You guessed it....the Kapex 120 is calling me!  Before I take out a small additional mortgage....is there anything I should know about that sucker?

The way I would summarize it is “it’s a lovely saw most people shouldn’t buy”. What it will give you over your DeWalt is cleaner cut quality (because of the thinner blade), better factory calibration, better dust collection, the industry’s best hold-down clamp, and the ability to butt it right up against a wall if space is a constraint because it uses a rail-forward design which only one other saw on the market (Bosch) uses. (I don’t have the mobile stand and wings for it, but what I’ve generally read is that they’re “okay”; the Fastcap wings are supposedly better than the OEM ones.)

If budget is a concern, though, these features probably aren’t worth paying 3x the price of a new DeWalt. I love my Kapex, but I also recognize it was a pure luxury purchase and for practical purposes was roughly equivalent to buying gold-plated tools for bragging rights. But I’m not a professional, and those who are may have a different perspective on it to share.

Interesting summary.  I think I would characterise my attitude to tools now by the following adage:  "be thrifty til you're fifty then spend til the end!"  In other words, I've reached a certain age where I simply don't want to compromise any more.  The old dewalt has served me well but its neither a Porsche nor a Mac truck....more a Trabant, with a dented drivers side door, rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! I'm rather looking forward to driving a Rolls Royce for a change!  Budget is always a factor but optimising quality is not the exclusive domain of Robert M Pirsig!  Luxury is NOT a dirty word :-)

Offline mino

  • Posts: 542
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2021, 09:19 PM »
... rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! ...
You sure it is a genuine Trabant and not some cheapo knock-off?

I am pretty sure the genuine ones do not rust!
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2021, 03:54 AM »
... rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! ...
You sure it is a genuine Trabant and not some cheapo knock-off?

I am pretty sure the genuine ones do not rust!

OMG.....my Dewalt is really a re-badged Oki-Duki....I knew it!!!

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 157
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2021, 04:34 AM »
Interesting summary.  I think I would characterise my attitude to tools now by the following adage:  "be thrifty til you're fifty then spend til the end!"  In other words, I've reached a certain age where I simply don't want to compromise any more.  The old dewalt has served me well but its neither a Porsche nor a Mac truck....more a Trabant, with a dented drivers side door, rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! I'm rather looking forward to driving a Rolls Royce for a change!  Budget is always a factor but optimising quality is not the exclusive domain of Robert M Pirsig!  Luxury is NOT a dirty word :-)
This is more or less where I'm at as well, which is why my garage has so many stacks of systainers that it's getting difficult to walk through it from end to end. [big grin]

I was just trying to provide sane advice rather than Festool-cultist advice, which is always "collect 'em all!"

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2021, 03:39 PM »
Interesting summary.  I think I would characterise my attitude to tools now by the following adage:  "be thrifty til you're fifty then spend til the end!"  In other words, I've reached a certain age where I simply don't want to compromise any more.  The old dewalt has served me well but its neither a Porsche nor a Mac truck....more a Trabant, with a dented drivers side door, rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! I'm rather looking forward to driving a Rolls Royce for a change!  Budget is always a factor but optimising quality is not the exclusive domain of Robert M Pirsig!  Luxury is NOT a dirty word :-)
This is more or less where I'm at as well, which is why my garage has so many stacks of systainers that it's getting difficult to walk through it from end to end. [big grin]

I was just trying to provide sane advice rather than Festool-cultist advice, which is always "collect 'em all!"

I get it Cypren.  Your advice is superb....and much appreciated :-)

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2701
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2021, 04:32 PM »
I'm with RandonOrbitBob, 68 now been doing commercial locksmithing, glazing, aluminum storefront, automatic door operator (swing and sliding) and plastic fabrication for 50 years now.  I run Festool, Fein, Metabo and Milwaukee cordless, Wera and Knipex hand tools along with a pretty comprehensive collection of commercial grade wood working equipment.  Titan, Graco and Fugi spray equipment, my first job out of school was as a finisher.  I no longer compromise on tool quality just to get by (much to my wife's regret).  A colleague recently made the remark that I should sell everything and retire...where's the fun in that (also to my wife's regret, I did promise to finally finish making the quarter sawn oak molding before I die, and then some future idiot will paint it all)

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2021, 07:37 PM »
Yes, I have to admit, it's strangely liberating to "let go" of the idea that I must justify every penny I spend and that somehow, each must be attributable to a practical value in the sense that whatever I use the tool for will ultimately pay for itself.

Now add to that the fact I'm a Yorkshireman....and suddenly you'll start to see just how ingrained the word "thrift" is.  I reckon if my genetic code were to be sequenced, about half way down every chromosome, you'd find "tight bastard" hard coded into my DNA!

How uplifting it is to finally be free of that irrational need to justify tool spend.  For some weird reason, I've hit 58 and "boom" its like I've been unshackled of guilt.

Now I'm looking forward to elegant bevel cuts with a mirror finish knowing full well I secured the workpiece with a plastic clamp that cost £46.  A ludicrous amount to cough for such an item even though its obviously very good at its job.  Maybe its something to do with the fact I've worked very hard all my life and its sort of "payback time".  I really don't know, just that a weights been lifted and it reminds me of a posh looking yacht I once saw in a marina near Reading, England.  It was the best part of half a million quids worth of boat and the shiny name on the bow read......... "Kids inheritance".  I confess to a stifled giggle at that :-)

Offline HiCal

  • Posts: 17
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2021, 09:41 AM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned amp ratings. The Festool dust extractors are designed to power any Festool tool including the Kapex and still not trip a 15 amp circuit. This limits the amount of power that the vac can produce. I have a new Midi that I have dedicated to the Kapex and also a Bosch that I use for everything else. The Bosch is rated at 150 cfm compared to the Midi at 130 cfm and it is a noticeable difference. However the Bosch/Kapex combo exceeds 15 amps.

I think a better plan is to get the less expensive CT15 to dedicate to the Kapex and then use the Midi for the other tools to make use of the added feature set, then use the Bosch for shop clean up. The added power is better for floor cleaning anyway.

Offline jcrowe1950

  • Festool Dealer Affiliate
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  • Posts: 194
    • Woodcraft Chattanooga, TN
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2021, 10:16 PM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned amp ratings. The Festool dust extractors are designed to power any Festool tool including the Kapex and still not trip a 15 amp circuit. This limits the amount of power that the vac can produce. I have a new Midi that I have dedicated to the Kapex and also a Bosch that I use for everything else. The Bosch is rated at 150 cfm compared to the Midi at 130 cfm and it is a noticeable difference. However the Bosch/Kapex combo exceeds 15 amps.

I think a better plan is to get the less expensive CT15 to dedicate to the Kapex and then use the Midi for the other tools to make use of the added feature set, then use the Bosch for shop clean up. The added power is better for floor cleaning anyway.
   According to Festool specs, the CT dust extractors will support 2200 watts, which is somewhere north of 18 amps @ 120volts. That means it is possible to run up to and including the OF 2200 from a CT dust extractor, though frankly I think that's pushing the envelope.  I would never run a CT dust extractor on a 15 amp 120 volt circuit personally and actually would prefer a 30 amp 120 volt circuit.
Festool Specialist at Woodcraft, Chattanooga, TN

Latest Festool purchase...Rotex 150.

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1046
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2021, 12:41 AM »
Hey Bob, 

I read your DNA reference to my wife, who teaches biology and who also worked for years in a lab doing DNA sequencing work.  She was quite amused and impressed with  the assessment of your genetic makeup.  [big grin] [big grin]


Yes, I have to admit, it's strangely liberating to "let go" of the idea that I must justify every penny I spend and that somehow, each must be attributable to a practical value in the sense that whatever I use the tool for will ultimately pay for itself.

Now add to that the fact I'm a Yorkshireman....and suddenly you'll start to see just how ingrained the word "thrift" is.  I reckon if my genetic code were to be sequenced, about half way down every chromosome, you'd find "tight bastard" hard coded into my DNA!


Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2021, 04:06 AM »
Very kind of you both Rob...please give her my best :-)

Maybe we've accidentally hit on the fundamental genetic reason why Yorkshireman and the Scots are notorious for being thrifty with cash.....its hard wired into our genetic code.  Those early Mendelian geneticists missed a few protein base pairs in their research.  Its not just A, C, G and T.  There's also B-A-S-T-A-R-D too.  If we could only edit that section out, we could become passive, serene and joyful every time we walk into a big toolshop :-) 

Hey Bob, 

I read your DNA reference to my wife, who teaches biology and who also worked for years in a lab doing DNA sequencing work.  She was quite amused and impressed with  the assessment of your genetic makeup.  [big grin] [big grin]


Yes, I have to admit, it's strangely liberating to "let go" of the idea that I must justify every penny I spend and that somehow, each must be attributable to a practical value in the sense that whatever I use the tool for will ultimately pay for itself.

Now add to that the fact I'm a Yorkshireman....and suddenly you'll start to see just how ingrained the word "thrift" is.  I reckon if my genetic code were to be sequenced, about half way down every chromosome, you'd find "tight bastard" hard coded into my DNA!


Offline mino

  • Posts: 542
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2021, 04:31 PM »
Very kind of you both Rob...please give her my best :-)

Maybe we've accidentally hit on the fundamental genetic reason why Yorkshireman and the Scots are notorious for being thrifty with cash.....its hard wired into our genetic code.  Those early Mendelian geneticists missed a few protein base pairs in their research.  Its not just A, C, G and T.  There's also B-A-S-T-A-R-D too.  If we could only edit that section out, we could become passive, serene and joyful every time we walk into a big toolshop :-) 

Actually this is partially true, albeit most of it is cultural.

Societies living in harsh climate historically went through a natural selection that preferred self-control and orderly, planned conduct as this was simply necessary to survive. You can see the same traits in all the Nordics, Russians, etc. etc.

Whereas in mild climates there was less risk of the nature killing you by cold/weather and more risk of other people killing you. So opportunistic, more aggressive and immediate-reaction focused traits were preferred against "self-discipline" traits so critical in harsh climates.

You would probably find more in common traits between the Scotts and the Finns or Russians than you will between them and the (South) English.
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Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1046
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2021, 06:33 PM »
Good evening Bob

I just read your latest musing to Mrs. Z and she had a solid laugh.  She feels you have a good background and are ready for more research. She suggests you look into something called "CRISPR" as a way to accomplish your goals (her words, not mine).  I asked what is "CRISPR" and got the university-level lecture and quickly had my eyes roll back  [scared] which is an indication that I am ready to move on to something less esoteric  [big grin]. My better half is thrilled when I make gemeli pasta for dinner because it looks like a double helix.  So you can see what gets her interest where I am just happy that my homemade sauce turned out well LOL.


Very kind of you both Rob...please give her my best :-)

Maybe we've accidentally hit on the fundamental genetic reason why Yorkshireman and the Scots are notorious for being thrifty with cash.....its hard wired into our genetic code.  Those early Mendelian geneticists missed a few protein base pairs in their research.  Its not just A, C, G and T.  There's also B-A-S-T-A-R-D too.  If we could only edit that section out, we could become passive, serene and joyful every time we walk into a big toolshop :-) 



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