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Author Topic: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)  (Read 6950 times)

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Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« on: May 13, 2021, 01:14 PM »
Evening all, just taken delivery of a new CTL 26.

I love the general rake of features, its clearly well though through etc etc but......the suction is less than I was expecting given the hyperbole that tends to surround the festool brand generally.  I realise this is a little anecdotal but I have an ancient karcher and also a good old henry hoover, both which seem to "suck" when placing ones hand over the hose end, rather more than the new festool.  Its nothing silly, like its not turned on to full or anything.  I have the 27mm hose and I've used the lifetime bag to save on paper bag costs.  But its frankly, well.....disappointing!  Something of a genuinely new experience for me when trying a Festool for the first time. 
Am I missing something?

Many thanks
Bob

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Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3517
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2021, 01:54 PM »
My Festool vacs have a “suck dial” that can adjust vacuum pressure. On high, there is mucho suck. On low, very little.
Birdhunter

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2021, 02:16 PM »
Yes, I did say that said dial was on full power so regrettably that's not it

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3517
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2021, 03:27 PM »
I’m sure your dealer will replace the vac.
Birdhunter

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 156
CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2021, 03:27 PM »
Are your other vacs sealed systems filtered to the same degree that the Festool one is?

I definitely don’t get the same kind of suction/airflow on my CT26 that I do on my Ridgid shop vac, but a large part of that is because, like nearly all shop vacs, it doesn’t have a micro-particle filter attached. The CT’s motor has to work a lot harder to force the same volume of air through a filter that’s much more restrictive so it can catch smaller dust particles that the Ridgid simply expels right back into the air.

Festool does make regular shop vac filters you can install if you don’t need the high filtration of the ones that come with the machine, but at that point you’re taking a very expensive dust extractor and essentially turning it into a regular shop vac, not getting the improved safety that makes it cost so much. (Also, depending on your country, doing this may make it illegal to operate in professional settings since it no longer meets safety standards.)

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2021, 03:56 PM »
have you tried it with the paper bag that came with it instead of the long life to see if it improves?

Peter

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2021, 04:15 PM »
Well firstly, thanks for responding folks, it is appreciated.

Oddly, yes I did just go out and do two tests:  One was hand over the suction hole with no hose attached and then secondly, with the paper bag rather than the lifetime bag.  The hand over the suction hole was very powerful, definitely more so than both my other cheapie shop vacs.  That suggests the hose is perhaps slightly less than perfect.  Its not blocked though as I've tested that.  I will say that the switch to the paper bag has also very slightly improved it but its almost imperceptible.  The life time bag is a pretty thick affair and I guess all that additional "wooly bear" stuff makes it have to work a little harder.  Hey ho.

Given I've got the 27mm hose, does anyone know what the difference might be, in terms of suction performance, by upgrading to the 36mm hose?  That might be the simple answer?


Offline Chainring

  • Posts: 83
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2021, 04:35 PM »
So, what have you used the CTL 26 for and is it not delivering satisfactory results?

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2021, 05:48 PM »
Fine with a TS55 and a domino.  It was more the general clearing up of extraneous dust that it seemed a little underpowered

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1010
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2021, 06:41 PM »
Any of the Festool vac’s breathe much better with the 36mm un-tapered hose, thus cleaning up perform much better with this hose. So is my experience with both CT Midi and CT 26. I have not tried the 36 on the CT SYS - but I guess there will be huge improvement on that as well.

The tapered 32-27 hose is really a tool oriented hose.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2021, 07:32 PM »
That makes sense and there's no question it performed well on several 2.4 metre cuts of 3/4" marine ply.  The only visible debris left after the cuts was chips rather than dust.  My nose had no crud in after blowing and that's a real tell as to whether your lungs are protected.

Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 138
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2021, 07:36 PM »
I have a CT26, M class, and the suction is nowhere near my 42 litre Nilfisk M class.(which has a 32mm hose as standard). Doesn't matter when using with a tool, but definitely notice when doing general clean up.
I bought a 36mm AS hose for it and use it for most tasks, apart from sanding. Makes a big difference.
The only thing I don't like about the Festool vacs is the short run-on time. About half the time of the Nilfisk, Starmix etc vacs.

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 156
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2021, 08:05 PM »
Given I've got the 27mm hose, does anyone know what the difference might be, in terms of suction performance, by upgrading to the 36mm hose?  That might be the simple answer?

Because I am a hopeless nerd dedicated public servant, I went out to put my CT26 to the test to see what various combinations of connections do to the airflow, using an anemometer. (All of these measurements were taken using the HEPA filter and a mostly-empty standard fleece bag.)

The results, or "exactly how much your vacuum sucks":



ConnectionEfficiency
Vacuum port (direct)100.00%
50mm (1m) hose89.53%
36mm (3.5m) hose 82.26%
50mm (1m) to 36mm (3.5m) hose77.14%
50mm (1m) to CT-VA to 36mm (3.5m) hose64.10%
27mm (3.5m) hose62.32%
27mm (0.5m) right-angle to CT-VA (direct input port)62.31%
50mm (1m) to CT-VA to 27mm (3.5m) hose61.75%
27mm (0.5m) right-angle to CT-VA to 36mm (3.5m) hose60.40%
27mm (0.5m) right-angle to CT-VA to 27mm (3.5m) hose60.04%
27mm (0.5m) right-angle to CT-VA to 50mm (1m) to 36mm (3.5m) hose55.98%

Key takeaways here:
  • Using the 27mm hose has a huge impact on your airflow
  • ...but it doesn't really matter whether it's a straight hose or right-angle
  • The CT-VA has about the same impact on your airflow as using a 27mm hose does, regardless of what you use to connect it to the vacuum
  • By the time you use the most likely configuration for a fully tricked-out CT (vacuum to CT-VA to 50mm boom arm extension to 36mm hose), you've lost almost half the airflow of your vacuum

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7569
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2021, 01:24 AM »
I am very not impressed by the suction of any Festool vac. They work fine as long they're connected to a tool, but they sincerely lack the oomph for general clean up.

Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 134
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2021, 04:20 AM »
@Alex
my midi has got more suck behind it than any of the other hovers/extractors i have ever used, and i use it for general clean up all the time.

i dont find them lacking in oomph.
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down
PSC 420 EB, TSC 55 REB, CTL MIDI I

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2021, 06:48 AM »
I think many are missing the point by testing with empty bags.

The "oomph" of the CT series to me is that the suck THE SAME regardless the bag being full or empty (hence the SelfClean bags branding).

They also FILTER the same. The standard self-clean bags are very clean ou the outside when you are tossing them out. Clearly they do proper filtering job across their lifetime. There are even folks which open them and reuse them a couple times like a long-life bag (!).

We have a couple cheaper Nilfisk-made vacs from various brands with the "drum" filters. These are still certified to L-class yet they all have the same behavior:
Vac suction drops well before the bag is filled (i.e. no self-clean) and when replacing the bag one can see the internals of the vac are way dirtier than on the Festool. The bags simply do not filter as well while getting blocked by dust easier to and the vac has to rely much more on the micro-filter. These are likely connected issues as a non-self-cleaning bag will naturally be loaded much more during use.

All this combined means the cheaper vacs have HIGHER running costs than my CTM 36 while providing less "worst case" suction. And that is before I account for the CT-VA used. They require much more frequent bag replacement, about two 5-bag packs of the "15-liter" Makita bags are needed take the dust one CT 36 bag can take. And the vacs also need much more frequent cleaning of the microfilter - i.e. labor costs.

We still use them as for tool-dedicated use they are fine. But the CT 36 is in a different class altogether.

Ref. Nilfisk, they also make higher end vacs comparable to CT26/36 series, but those go for comparable prices too ...

Ref. "Generic" shop vacs, we have gotten rid of all bar one which is used outside for car cleaning etc. What purpose is a vac which just takes the worst micro-dust and only spreads it around the air.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2021, 06:52 AM by mino »
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7569
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2021, 07:43 AM »
@Alex
my midi has got more suck behind it than any of the other hovers/extractors i have ever used, and i use it for general clean up all the time.

i dont find them lacking in oomph.

Well, you're wrong.  [tongue]

Ok, everybody got his own experiences, great if it works for you. I got experience with 5 Festool vacs now, 22, 26, Mini, Midi and CT-Sys, and I find them all lacking. I have a used Nilfisk home vac I bought for 10 euros and it has a lot more power than any Festool vac I have ever tried. And same for any other home vac I owned or used.


Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7569
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2021, 07:45 AM »
The "oomph" of the CT series to me is that the suck THE SAME regardless the bag being full or empty (hence the SelfClean bags branding).

That was ok for me with the 22 and 26, but with the smaller vacs suction drops dramatically when they get to the half way point.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2021, 11:38 AM »
That was ok for me with the 22 and 26, but with the smaller vacs suction drops dramatically when they get to the half way point.
The Self-Clean apparently relies on the small pressure differential from the huge filter area and smaller ones have the filter area in contact with the bag about half as big.

Do you observe that suction loss as permanent, i.e. the filter truly clogs, or does an occasional manual-clean tap help?

Thinking of adding a Mini ...
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 156
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2021, 02:38 PM »
I have a used Nilfisk home vac I bought for 10 euros and it has a lot more power than any Festool vac I have ever tried. And same for any other home vac I owned or used.
That's to be expected: home vacuums aren't filtered like a proper dust extractor and so their motors don't have to work nearly as hard to get the same kind of airflow. Any home or shop vac using its standard filter should vastly exceed the airflow of a dust extractor with a comparable-size motor: if it doesn't, something is badly wrong with one of the two.

But comparing them is like comparing a sports car to a pickup truck: they're machines built for different purposes and intentionally make different engineering tradeoffs.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1010
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2021, 02:42 PM »
That was ok for me with the 22 and 26, but with the smaller vacs suction drops dramatically when they get to the half way point.
The Self-Clean apparently relies on the small pressure differential from the huge filter area and smaller ones have the filter area in contact with the bag about half as big.

Do you observe that suction loss as permanent, i.e. the filter truly clogs, or does an occasional manual-clean tap help?

Thinking of adding a Mini ...

No need to think, get it when you can. It’s an overall great vac. It doesn’t matter if another vac sucks a bump in your floor in shear power. Alex is pleased with his older model Mini, so are huge numbers of professionals, and the new Mini gets even better praise.

Thanks for your nerdiness @Cypren  [big grin] It confirms my experience.
I was in fact quite surprised by the small diameter tubing in the CT-VA when I first received it. The Oneida must be much better for larger chip/sawdust producing machines.. - Got me thinking a bit, although I have only tried it with the CT-SYS and my Bosch GEX Turbo. The bag almost choked the CT-SYS all the time by the collapsing bag..
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 156
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2021, 02:49 PM »
The Oneida must be much better for larger chip/sawdust producing machines.
I've been wondering about this as well and keep thinking about picking one up to find out. The CT-VA is great for handling the castoff from lighter tools, but when I'm using the HL 850 or the Kapex -- the things that throw off the most chips, where the cyclone would be most useful -- I usually need to hook them directly to the vacuum to get decent collection. At the same time, though, it really sucks to give up the VA's nice compact form factor and the ability to use the top as a rolling Systainer cart: I use that constantly.

The devil on my shoulder reminds me that I can solve this problem by just getting a second dust extractor, and my, doesn't that shiny new CT 48 AC HEPA look tempting...

Offline cpw

  • Posts: 305
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2021, 02:53 PM »
I use my CT26 for tools and for general cleanup, because having a separate vac for cleanup vs. tools doesn't make much sense to me.  The 36mm hose is much much better for cleanup.  Whether or not there is enough "suck" with a 27mm hose the fittings are too small and inevitably are a point for blockages if you have any splinters or things aside from fine dust.

I don't have a new smooth hose, but the 36mm hose is not significantly more difficult to deal with than the 27mm hose IMO.  My 27mm hose has been in storage since I got the 36mm hose, because thinking about switching them makes no sense to me.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7569
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2021, 03:03 PM »
I have a used Nilfisk home vac I bought for 10 euros and it has a lot more power than any Festool vac I have ever tried. And same for any other home vac I owned or used.
That's to be expected: home vacuums aren't filtered like a proper dust extractor and so their motors don't have to work nearly as hard to get the same kind of airflow. Any home or shop vac using its standard filter should vastly exceed the airflow of a dust extractor with a comparable-size motor: if it doesn't, something is badly wrong with one of the two.

But comparing them is like comparing a sports car to a pickup truck: they're machines built for different purposes and intentionally make different engineering tradeoffs.

They are made for the exact same thing, sucking up unwanted stuff.

The Festool vacs sure have better filtration. When you use a home vac, you have this vacuming smell all over the house and need to open a door or a window to get fresh air. You don't smell a thing with the festool vacs.

But as for trade off, the motor of the Festool vac is 8 or 10 times bigger than the Nilfisk. I expect more from that. I have worked with many other tool vacs, Bosch, Metabo, Hitachi, Starmix, and almost all of them were stronger than the home vacs I'm talking about, and a lot stronger than the Festool vacs.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2054
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2021, 04:22 PM »
I'm actually stunned by the negative feedback about Festool CT's. I have used other vacs and own a Fein with a HEPA filter along with my CT48 and CTSYS. For my Festools, like the Domino, TS55, OF1400, OF1010, and sanders, I don't feel I've owned another vac which has done a better job pulling the dust in as opposed to leaving in the shop. I realize that some of the dust collection efficiency has to do with tool design, but I guess that's part of the picture. As for floor cleanup, certainly the 36mm hose works better, but, since it's an extra step (for which I'm sometimes lazy) I use the 27mm hose almost always and it works great for shavings and sawdust. Since I also turn as well as do other woodworking, I have a lot of shavings that aren't easily cleaned up with a broom and dustpan or other means in my shop. It's likely there are other vacs with more suction, but the Festool CT48 I have owned for at least 5 years does a completely satisfying job of keeping dust out of the air from my tools and cleaning up after I'm done. I would never use it for my router table, tablesaw, bandsaw, planer, or jointer but it's not designed to move the amount of air required for adequate dust collection for those tools.
Randy

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 615
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2021, 06:39 PM »
Total suction power is not necessarily the top goal. The variable dial to allow you to turn it down for sanders as well as the built-in tool-trigger are both things that the typical shop-vac does not have.
Along with the increased filtration, Systainer docking, hose garage, and bluetooth switch, there are advantages to being part of the "system".
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7569
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2021, 02:07 AM »
Festool vacs work great with a tool attached. Indeed, you don't need very high suction to make that work. I am very satisfied about the Festool vacs in that department, that's why I have owned 4 by now, and will keep on owning them in the future.

I work mostly in home renovation, not in a perfectly clean wood shop where you only have to saw and sand wood and then clean a perfectly flat, coated floor afterwards. Wood dust/chips/shavings is one of the lightest types of dust you can find and is very easy to vacuum.

But to renovate a home, there is a lot of demolition before. Out goes the old, in goes the new. This makes a lot of mess of varying types of dust, and a lot of stone and metal, which have a much higher density than wood. Not only is the volume of dirt a lot higher, but it is more difficult to suck up due to the higher density, and the rough nature of the floor, and now I find the Festool vacs are struggling compared to the competition.

When I go out on a job I need a vac that can handle both, I can't carry multiple vacs. Since they have variable suction, make it very strong on the upper end, and fine on the lower end.

Offline Steve1

  • Posts: 96
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2021, 07:54 AM »
...the suction is less than I was expecting

I am not sure exactly what you were expecting, or if you mean pressure or airflow.   The static (zero flow) pressure of a vacuum is not going to be too much different between brands, but I am not sure that measurement is relevant to real world use anyways.   The airflow is closely related to motor amps.   Any way you can compare airflow to another vacuum quantitatively, the way @Cypren did in the earlier post ?    That would possibly give you an idea if perhaps there is a problem with your particular unit. 

HERE is a link to a quantitative comparison of vacs.  They test a CT36, but I am pretty sure the blower is identical to a CT26, just the size of the collection bag is different.   Strange that they show the Festool as being rather loud, I find it rather quiet (at least a heck of a lot quieter as my old Shopvac brand vac that I refused to turn on without first putting on hearing protection).

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 615
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2021, 08:06 AM »
Yeah Alex, I get what you are saying. We are all doing different things and have different expectations from the same tools. The whole Sys3 thing is a perfect example. Some of us are shop users and others are on the road and it does make a difference.
Personally, I would never use my CT26 on a post-demo clean up for the really course stuff, like nails, screws, etc like I would a cheap shop vac. I would pick up/sweep up what I could first and just the dust after.
I can certainly see not carrying both, not only because of space in the van, but because of the filtration difference. Shop vacs do great with the worst things, but they also seem to spread the fine dust better than the demo itself did.
When you are in someone's home or functioning office space, cleanliness is huge.

Like you said, for me in a huge, clean, well ventilated, smooth floored shop, dust collection is as much about not having to clean it up afterword as anything else. Sometimes it makes the cut better like with deep mortices with a router or Domino
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 615
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2021, 08:20 AM »
...the suction is less than I was expecting

I am not sure exactly what you were expecting, or if you mean pressure or airflow.   The static (zero flow) pressure of a vacuum is not going to be too much different between brands, but I am not sure that measurement is relevant to real world use anyways.   The airflow is closely related to motor amps.   Any way you can compare airflow to another vacuum quantitatively, the way @Cypren did in the earlier post ?    That would possibly give you an idea if perhaps there is a problem with your particular unit. 

HERE is a link to a quantitative comparison of vacs.  They test a CT36, but I am pretty sure the blower is identical to a CT26, just the size of the collection bag is different.   Strange that they show the Festool as being rather loud, I find it rather quiet (at least a heck of a lot quieter as my old Shopvac brand vac that I refused to turn on without first putting on hearing protection).

Also the vacuum/suction level drop during use. I frequently forget to check my bag, especially when I first got it, not realizing how much more debris it was taking in than my old shop vac that I used before it. I usually realize that it is getting full when swapping hoses between the usual tool hose and the one I keep plugged into my router table. When it gets full, some residue drops out when unplugging the hose, but if I don't make a swap to notice this? The CT still continues to draw at the same level of vacuum until the hose is full. Early on I did this right up to the point where the hose was so full that the chips had no where to go. It was totally my fault, but totally amazing that it could fill the hose and still suck.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 156
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2021, 03:46 PM »
The CT still continues to draw at the same level of vacuum until the hose is full. Early on I did this right up to the point where the hose was so full that the chips had no where to go. It was totally my fault, but totally amazing that it could fill the hose and still suck.
This is smart engineering on Festool’s part: most shop vacs extend their intake filter down into the collection chamber, where debris will build up around it as the chamber gets full and block it off. Festool makes theirs a flat filter in the roof of the chamber, so gravity is always working to pull debris away from the filter and keep it as open as possible. It won’t be blocked off until the chamber is almost completely packed. This means the nominal capacity of the vacuum in liters is only a tiny bit larger than the actual capacity it can fill in practice, which is unusual.

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Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2021, 08:25 PM »
I was in fact quite surprised by the small diameter tubing in the CT-VA ..
This is necessary. To work well a cyclone must achieve a certain air speed. With sanders the air volume is generally pretty low, so CT-VA must use uses tight air tubing to work even at the low air flows required.

This still provides mostly the equivalent of a 32/27 hose resistance so is acceptable for a TS55 and yet is usable with sanders. Any cyclone optimized for a higher air flow will have a lower efficiency at the typical sander air flow values to the point of making it pointless.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2021, 09:50 AM »
Well thanks to all who have contributed to what was a fairly "innocent" first question by me :-)  Being new to FOG, but not new to woodworking forums (used to moderate UKW), I'm impressed by the healthy community out there.

Cypren, your input makes a lot of sense, not least because, like me, you're data driven and the empirical measurement is difficult to argue against since it removes many of the variables.  I did make specific mention in the first place that my "measure of suction" was anecdotal and I'll tell you now what it was specifically. I placed my hand over the 27mm hose from a brand new CT26 with a brand new long life bag being used for the first time.  That was compared to a normal domestic Henry Hoover (which of course also has a HEPA filter and works very well).  The Henry unquestionably has a bit more "suck" and I think that was what slightly deflated my balloon because i hold Festool in very esteem.  I think my original assumption was that not only would it be a dream managing tool dust at source but that it would deal with the post work clean up too.  Thats the bit my expectation is slightly changing as a result of this debate.  Perhaps, OK for bits n bobs from the hose end, but maybe not with a floor gulping type tool and expect to hoover round the ground of the workshop like I was using the Henry for??  I will add the 36mm hose as that clearly seems superior.  I'm now slightly annoyed I didnt get this choice at purchase because I'm clearly about to shell out another £140 odd to make the hose I only bought last week redundant!  Thats "taking the mickey" a bit is it not?  Why dont Festool offer a hose upgrade cost at the point of sale?? 

But anyway, input appreciated and useful.  Many thanks.  Bob

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 749
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2021, 11:14 AM »
All I can say is I purchased a CT33 in 2008 for my hobby shop and it sucks today as well as it did on day one.

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 156
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2021, 04:47 PM »
That was compared to a normal domestic Henry Hoover (which of course also has a HEPA filter and works very well).  The Henry unquestionably has a bit more "suck" and I think that was what slightly deflated my balloon because i hold Festool in very esteem.  I think my original assumption was that not only would it be a dream managing tool dust at source but that it would deal with the post work clean up too.  Thats the bit my expectation is slightly changing as a result of this debate.  Perhaps, OK for bits n bobs from the hose end, but maybe not with a floor gulping type tool and expect to hoover round the ground of the workshop like I was using the Henry for??  I will add the 36mm hose as that clearly seems superior.  I'm now slightly annoyed I didnt get this choice at purchase because I'm clearly about to shell out another £140 odd to make the hose I only bought last week redundant!

Couple of thoughts here:

First, if you want to compare two shop vacs, to make it apples-to-apples, there are really three main things you need to make sure are equal: the grade of filtration, the type of bag in use, and the diameter and length of the hose being used.

Shop vacs (at least in the US; I can’t speak for elsewhere) usually come with a very coarse filter, no bag, and a very large diameter, short hose. (Ex: my Ridgid came with a 65mm, 2m hose.) This is an ideal configuration for cleanup of random trash on the floor: it’s mostly large, coarse material, not fine particulate, so it won’t spray a ton back in the air or clog the filter. It’s meant for wet and dry work that would wreck a dust bag. It’s expected that you’ll attach tube extensions and a head to the short hose so you can use it comfortably at standing height while sweeping up the floor, so a long hose would just mean worse airflow and more hassle. The enormous diameter of the hose makes it cumbersome to maneuver, but ensures it can pick up objects in a wide radius without obstruction.

In comparison, the CT series come with a HEPA filter, a fleece bag that acts as a secondary filter, and a thin, long hose (27mm, 3.5m) that’s very flexible and has a mesh cover to both protect the hose and ensure that it slips and slides off of both itself and obstacles in the environment rather than catching on them. (Necessary inclusion for the pedantic: the CT 48 comes with a 36mm hose, and the 36 AC comes with a special hose for the Planex.) This is a configuration that assumes you want to use this machine connected to a power tool, where the hose needs to move around freely, stay out of your way, and be as light as possible. It assumes that you prioritize maximum filtration, because you’re working with fine dust with major safety concerns, and can’t just expel it back into the air. It assumes that the filter is very expensive (US$100, compared to $13 for the Ridgid’s standard filter) and so you want a secondary filter (the bag) to ensure that you don’t have to replace the primary one regularly, even though this is going to impede airflow even further.

This is what I meant earlier when I said it’s sports car vs. pickup truck: these are both “vehicles to get from one place to another”, but they assume the driver intends to use them very, very differently, so they’ve prioritized completely different tradeoffs in design.

In this case, however, you can actually turn the CT into a pretty effective shop vac, but it requires changing out the accessories. Specifically, you want the industrial cleaning set (454770), which includes a 50mm x 2.5m hose and extensions and accessories to go with it. To maximize airflow, you would also want to remove the bag and swap the HEPA filter for the one micron filter element (496170), which will have much better airflow and still capture most environmental dust, but not the really fine particles. You may also want to add the Large Industrial Floor Nozzle (452910) and aluminum extension tube (447599).

The thing is that by the time you’ve done all of this, you’ve basically spent at least another $200 (and about $500 if you bought the nice metal accessories) to turn your $800-$1000 dust extractor into a $100 shop vac from Home Depot. A quieter, better built one (as AvE would say, “made in Jcherrrrmany”), but otherwise pretty ordinary shop vac.

This really just doesn’t make a lot of sense if you’re in a workshop and can just have a second machine. It might make sense for jobsite workers who can’t afford the space to take a second vacuum, but even then, it’s a hassle to switch the filters and accessories around every time you want to flip from dust extraction to site cleanup, and time is money.

The only way I can see this being useful is for people who really can’t take more than one vacuum with them, have to obey rigid workplace safety laws regarding dust filtration, and have an enormous mess to clean up when they’re done, such that the time spent switching over the accessories is paid off in the time saved during cleanup.

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2021, 06:00 PM »
Righto....thanks Cypren.  That makes perfect sense.  So I will reverse my expectation that what is clearly a "Porsche" for dangerous and very fine tool dust collection at source, shouldn't be confused with a "Mac truck" for dealing with anything on the floor.

One assumes that once the Porsche has done its job, there shouldn't be any fine particles in the environment anyway (not much at least) and therefore its entirely sensible to use a regular shop vac for "hoovering" rather than DX as such.

So I'll keep my Henry for general cleanup and leave the festool for "tool at source" work.

Er.....does anyone want to buy a 27mm hose and a lifetime bag....hardly used :-)

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2021, 06:04 PM »
And while I'm on....I'm about to replace my 14 year old Dewalt SCMS.  You guessed it....the Kapex 120 is calling me!  Before I take out a small additional mortgage....is there anything I should know about that sucker?

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 615
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2021, 06:07 PM »
It's really awesome to see a reference to AvE! That guy is fantastic, been watching him for years.
He would also say it was Skookum.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1010
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2021, 06:41 PM »
And while I'm on....I'm about to replace my 14 year old Dewalt SCMS.  You guessed it....the Kapex 120 is calling me!  Before I take out a small additional mortgage....is there anything I should know about that sucker?

Easy: Get a 5m 36mm hose, cut 1-1,5m off of the hose (buy a set of tool end and vac end too) and make this one for the KS 120  [big grin] Use the other better half for shop clean up and air hungry tools. Oh, and maybe buy another hold down clamp, for the other side. Need no more. [wink]
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1010
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2021, 06:48 PM »
It's really awesome to see a reference to AvE! That guy is fantastic, been watching him for years.
He would also say it was Skookum.

Another avid AvE viewer here, I can hear the scookum superlatives if he ever was to examine a CT’s suction by any means..
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 156
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2021, 06:58 PM »
Er.....does anyone want to buy a 27mm hose and a lifetime bag....hardly used :-)

This will be personal preference, but I’d recommend you hang onto both of those for the moment. You’ll find the 27mm hose is quite a lot more convenient to use with tools that don’t need anywhere near the maximum suction the vacuum can provide (sanders, track saw, drilling, etc). There’s a reason that it’s the default hose: they’re not just including it to be cheap. For work of this kind, you’ll also find the long-life bag will save you a lot of money in the long run over using replaceable bags, particularly if you don’t have a cyclone attached to the machine. Long-life bag + direct 36mm hose attachment is still going to provide you better suction than disposable bag + cyclone + 36mm hose, if that’s what you’re interested in.

But remember, for the vast majority of power tools, the suction of this machine is way overkill. You have to turn it way down when sanding unless you want to leave swirl marks all over your work surface. The last and worst-performing configuration I listed in my airflow test chart is actually the one I use day in and day out! I’m giving up 45% of the vacuum’s actual airflow performance and don’t care because what’s left over is still plenty strong for the tools I’m using it with. The only times that I switch things around for better performance are when I’m using heavyweight tools that throw off an enormous amount of material: the HL 850 planer, the OF 2200 router, and the Kapex. In those cases, I usually bypass the cyclone and go direct to the vacuum because the extra airflow really matters. For the router and planer, I’m using the 50mm extension hose that comes with the boom arm connected to the 36mm hose on the boom itself. For the Kapex, I keep a 36mm hose permanently attached at my miter saw station so I can just wheel the CT over and plug it in when I’m using it, rather than fussing with trying to position the boom. (Eventually, I’ll probably replace this with a direct hookup to the shop dust collector, but I haven’t built a full shop ducting system yet and am still wheeling machines around with hoses at the moment.)

And while I'm on....I'm about to replace my 14 year old Dewalt SCMS.  You guessed it....the Kapex 120 is calling me!  Before I take out a small additional mortgage....is there anything I should know about that sucker?

The way I would summarize it is “it’s a lovely saw most people shouldn’t buy”. What it will give you over your DeWalt is cleaner cut quality (because of the thinner blade), better factory calibration, better dust collection, the industry’s best hold-down clamp, and the ability to butt it right up against a wall if space is a constraint because it uses a rail-forward design which only one other saw on the market (Bosch) uses. (I don’t have the mobile stand and wings for it, but what I’ve generally read is that they’re “okay”; the Fastcap wings are supposedly better than the OEM ones.)

If budget is a concern, though, these features probably aren’t worth paying 3x the price of a new DeWalt. I love my Kapex, but I also recognize it was a pure luxury purchase and for practical purposes was roughly equivalent to buying gold-plated tools for bragging rights. But I’m not a professional, and those who are may have a different perspective on it to share.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1010
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2021, 07:01 PM »
I was in fact quite surprised by the small diameter tubing in the CT-VA ..
This is necessary. To work well a cyclone must achieve a certain air speed. With sanders the air volume is generally pretty low, so CT-VA must use uses tight air tubing to work even at the low air flows required.

This still provides mostly the equivalent of a 32/27 hose resistance so is acceptable for a TS55 and yet is usable with sanders. Any cyclone optimized for a higher air flow will have a lower efficiency at the typical sander air flow values to the point of making it pointless.

Mino, I think you’re right. After a closer look I see that the inlet is tapered from 50mm and down quite steep before the air enters the cyclone itself. This will create heat build up into the air while the air compresses and speed probably increases before entering the cyclone chamber, where it expands again. The outlet tube is also quite narrow, and the connected hose to vac is then wider to let the air expand again.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2791
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2021, 07:03 PM »

Easy: Get a 5m 36mm hose, cut 1-1,5m off of the hose (buy a set of tool end and vac end too) and make this one for the KS 120  [big grin] Use the other better half for shop clean up and air hungry tools. Oh, and maybe buy another hold down clamp, for the other side. Need no more. [wink]

Another hold-down clamp PLUS

an extra rubber dust shroud so you can make a sawstache shroud for those occasions when you need that extra dust extraction -- such as cutting MDF, or worse, dadoing MDF stock.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 07:09 PM by ChuckM »

Offline tsmi243

  • Posts: 86
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2021, 09:50 PM »
One assumes that once the Porsche has done its job,

You don't need to assume.  It's not impossible that there's a problem with yours.  At least in the US, any Festool dealer will have demo units to try out, and see if they feel the same to your hand as the one you bought. 

I've gone through a LOT of different vacuums, and while the overall CFM isn't amazing on the small hose, the actual static pressure really, truly is.  I can't imagine someone stopping it with their hand and feeling underwhelmed. 

Offline Christophl

  • Posts: 31
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2021, 11:19 AM »
I know this is a festool forum, but I don't think you all have seen the HEPA filter bag on the Rigids.  There's absolutely no dirty dust ejected from the vac. I use mine with a Dust Deputy keeping the bag really clean.  Having said that, I'd still like a Festool vac for use with my 'future' ETS 150.

Online squall_line

  • Posts: 624
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2021, 11:57 AM »
I know this is a festool forum, but I don't think you all have seen the HEPA filter bag on the Rigids.  There's absolutely no dirty dust ejected from the vac. I use mine with a Dust Deputy keeping the bag really clean.  Having said that, I'd still like a Festool vac for use with my 'future' ETS 150.

It feels like HEPA has been a long time coming on other brands in the USA.  I know that when I originally got my CT-MINI back in 2016, it was one of the few HEPA options I could find that was also in stock locally.  Things certainly have changed since then.  I even wonder out loud if OSHA is nearly as strict on this in the USA as inspectors seem to be in the EU and UK; everything I know is anecdotal, at best.  I see crews here in town dry-scraping 100-year-old buildings without PPE or any sort of other containment, which I know is a violation.  I'm not sure that I could find a lead-certified contractor if I wanted one, honestly.

It appears that there's both a retrofit kit for the cheaper Ridgid vacs as well as factory HEPA models.  I wonder how the $50 bag/filter retrofit kit for the Ridgid comes out in terms of overall cost over time.  I haven't looked closely at what they're charging for bags on their HEPA-from-the-factory models.

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 156
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2021, 12:29 PM »
I know this is a festool forum, but I don't think you all have seen the HEPA filter bag on the Rigids.  There's absolutely no dirty dust ejected from the vac. I use mine with a Dust Deputy keeping the bag really clean.  Having said that, I'd still like a Festool vac for use with my 'future' ETS 150.
I’d be very curious to see what the airflow performance on a HEPA-certified Ridgid looks like relative to the baseline model. My guess is that it’s a lot like a CT, since they have similar-power motors. I would expect the Festool to have better static pressure, though, just because its mechanism is much more tightly-sealed end to end, and I would also expect it to have waaaaay less suction loss as it fills because of the improved filter placement I mentioned earlier in the thread.

I’m kind of curious how feasible it is to retrofit a non-HEPA vac to “effective” HEPA standards. I remember in one of the Festool Live episodes Sedge mentions the new HEPA filters for the CT 48 AC HEPA and the 36 that are robust enough to survive the autoclean pulse. He then says something along the lines of, “so can you put one of these in an older 36 AC?” and goes on to dance around the topic saying that while it’ll fit, HEPA certification is done on the entire vacuum end to end, not just the filter. Maybe I’m wrong, but I took him to essentially be implying “yes, you can drop one of these filters in your 36 AC and turn it into a HEPA vac; the lawyers just won’t let me say that because we didn’t have that specific model certified that way when you bought it.”

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2021, 07:07 PM »
Er.....does anyone want to buy a 27mm hose and a lifetime bag....hardly used :-)

This will be personal preference, but I’d recommend you hang onto both of those for the moment. You’ll find the 27mm hose is quite a lot more convenient to use with tools that don’t need anywhere near the maximum suction the vacuum can provide (sanders, track saw, drilling, etc). There’s a reason that it’s the default hose: they’re not just including it to be cheap. For work of this kind, you’ll also find the long-life bag will save you a lot of money in the long run over using replaceable bags, particularly if you don’t have a cyclone attached to the machine. Long-life bag + direct 36mm hose attachment is still going to provide you better suction than disposable bag + cyclone + 36mm hose, if that’s what you’re interested in.

But remember, for the vast majority of power tools, the suction of this machine is way overkill. You have to turn it way down when sanding unless you want to leave swirl marks all over your work surface. The last and worst-performing configuration I listed in my airflow test chart is actually the one I use day in and day out! I’m giving up 45% of the vacuum’s actual airflow performance and don’t care because what’s left over is still plenty strong for the tools I’m using it with. The only times that I switch things around for better performance are when I’m using heavyweight tools that throw off an enormous amount of material: the HL 850 planer, the OF 2200 router, and the Kapex. In those cases, I usually bypass the cyclone and go direct to the vacuum because the extra airflow really matters. For the router and planer, I’m using the 50mm extension hose that comes with the boom arm connected to the 36mm hose on the boom itself. For the Kapex, I keep a 36mm hose permanently attached at my miter saw station so I can just wheel the CT over and plug it in when I’m using it, rather than fussing with trying to position the boom. (Eventually, I’ll probably replace this with a direct hookup to the shop dust collector, but I haven’t built a full shop ducting system yet and am still wheeling machines around with hoses at the moment.)

And while I'm on....I'm about to replace my 14 year old Dewalt SCMS.  You guessed it....the Kapex 120 is calling me!  Before I take out a small additional mortgage....is there anything I should know about that sucker?

The way I would summarize it is “it’s a lovely saw most people shouldn’t buy”. What it will give you over your DeWalt is cleaner cut quality (because of the thinner blade), better factory calibration, better dust collection, the industry’s best hold-down clamp, and the ability to butt it right up against a wall if space is a constraint because it uses a rail-forward design which only one other saw on the market (Bosch) uses. (I don’t have the mobile stand and wings for it, but what I’ve generally read is that they’re “okay”; the Fastcap wings are supposedly better than the OEM ones.)

If budget is a concern, though, these features probably aren’t worth paying 3x the price of a new DeWalt. I love my Kapex, but I also recognize it was a pure luxury purchase and for practical purposes was roughly equivalent to buying gold-plated tools for bragging rights. But I’m not a professional, and those who are may have a different perspective on it to share.

Interesting summary.  I think I would characterise my attitude to tools now by the following adage:  "be thrifty til you're fifty then spend til the end!"  In other words, I've reached a certain age where I simply don't want to compromise any more.  The old dewalt has served me well but its neither a Porsche nor a Mac truck....more a Trabant, with a dented drivers side door, rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! I'm rather looking forward to driving a Rolls Royce for a change!  Budget is always a factor but optimising quality is not the exclusive domain of Robert M Pirsig!  Luxury is NOT a dirty word :-)

Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2021, 09:19 PM »
... rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! ...
You sure it is a genuine Trabant and not some cheapo knock-off?

I am pretty sure the genuine ones do not rust!
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2021, 03:54 AM »
... rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! ...
You sure it is a genuine Trabant and not some cheapo knock-off?

I am pretty sure the genuine ones do not rust!

OMG.....my Dewalt is really a re-badged Oki-Duki....I knew it!!!

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 156
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2021, 04:34 AM »
Interesting summary.  I think I would characterise my attitude to tools now by the following adage:  "be thrifty til you're fifty then spend til the end!"  In other words, I've reached a certain age where I simply don't want to compromise any more.  The old dewalt has served me well but its neither a Porsche nor a Mac truck....more a Trabant, with a dented drivers side door, rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! I'm rather looking forward to driving a Rolls Royce for a change!  Budget is always a factor but optimising quality is not the exclusive domain of Robert M Pirsig!  Luxury is NOT a dirty word :-)
This is more or less where I'm at as well, which is why my garage has so many stacks of systainers that it's getting difficult to walk through it from end to end. [big grin]

I was just trying to provide sane advice rather than Festool-cultist advice, which is always "collect 'em all!"

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2021, 03:39 PM »
Interesting summary.  I think I would characterise my attitude to tools now by the following adage:  "be thrifty til you're fifty then spend til the end!"  In other words, I've reached a certain age where I simply don't want to compromise any more.  The old dewalt has served me well but its neither a Porsche nor a Mac truck....more a Trabant, with a dented drivers side door, rust spots all over the bonnet (hood for you US folk) and a very dodgy exhaust pipe! I'm rather looking forward to driving a Rolls Royce for a change!  Budget is always a factor but optimising quality is not the exclusive domain of Robert M Pirsig!  Luxury is NOT a dirty word :-)
This is more or less where I'm at as well, which is why my garage has so many stacks of systainers that it's getting difficult to walk through it from end to end. [big grin]

I was just trying to provide sane advice rather than Festool-cultist advice, which is always "collect 'em all!"

I get it Cypren.  Your advice is superb....and much appreciated :-)

Online rst

  • Posts: 2656
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2021, 04:32 PM »
I'm with RandonOrbitBob, 68 now been doing commercial locksmithing, glazing, aluminum storefront, automatic door operator (swing and sliding) and plastic fabrication for 50 years now.  I run Festool, Fein, Metabo and Milwaukee cordless, Wera and Knipex hand tools along with a pretty comprehensive collection of commercial grade wood working equipment.  Titan, Graco and Fugi spray equipment, my first job out of school was as a finisher.  I no longer compromise on tool quality just to get by (much to my wife's regret).  A colleague recently made the remark that I should sell everything and retire...where's the fun in that (also to my wife's regret, I did promise to finally finish making the quarter sawn oak molding before I die, and then some future idiot will paint it all)

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2021, 07:37 PM »
Yes, I have to admit, it's strangely liberating to "let go" of the idea that I must justify every penny I spend and that somehow, each must be attributable to a practical value in the sense that whatever I use the tool for will ultimately pay for itself.

Now add to that the fact I'm a Yorkshireman....and suddenly you'll start to see just how ingrained the word "thrift" is.  I reckon if my genetic code were to be sequenced, about half way down every chromosome, you'd find "tight bastard" hard coded into my DNA!

How uplifting it is to finally be free of that irrational need to justify tool spend.  For some weird reason, I've hit 58 and "boom" its like I've been unshackled of guilt.

Now I'm looking forward to elegant bevel cuts with a mirror finish knowing full well I secured the workpiece with a plastic clamp that cost £46.  A ludicrous amount to cough for such an item even though its obviously very good at its job.  Maybe its something to do with the fact I've worked very hard all my life and its sort of "payback time".  I really don't know, just that a weights been lifted and it reminds me of a posh looking yacht I once saw in a marina near Reading, England.  It was the best part of half a million quids worth of boat and the shiny name on the bow read......... "Kids inheritance".  I confess to a stifled giggle at that :-)

Offline HiCal

  • Posts: 17
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2021, 09:41 AM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned amp ratings. The Festool dust extractors are designed to power any Festool tool including the Kapex and still not trip a 15 amp circuit. This limits the amount of power that the vac can produce. I have a new Midi that I have dedicated to the Kapex and also a Bosch that I use for everything else. The Bosch is rated at 150 cfm compared to the Midi at 130 cfm and it is a noticeable difference. However the Bosch/Kapex combo exceeds 15 amps.

I think a better plan is to get the less expensive CT15 to dedicate to the Kapex and then use the Midi for the other tools to make use of the added feature set, then use the Bosch for shop clean up. The added power is better for floor cleaning anyway.

Offline jcrowe1950

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Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2021, 10:16 PM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned amp ratings. The Festool dust extractors are designed to power any Festool tool including the Kapex and still not trip a 15 amp circuit. This limits the amount of power that the vac can produce. I have a new Midi that I have dedicated to the Kapex and also a Bosch that I use for everything else. The Bosch is rated at 150 cfm compared to the Midi at 130 cfm and it is a noticeable difference. However the Bosch/Kapex combo exceeds 15 amps.

I think a better plan is to get the less expensive CT15 to dedicate to the Kapex and then use the Midi for the other tools to make use of the added feature set, then use the Bosch for shop clean up. The added power is better for floor cleaning anyway.
   According to Festool specs, the CT dust extractors will support 2200 watts, which is somewhere north of 18 amps @ 120volts. That means it is possible to run up to and including the OF 2200 from a CT dust extractor, though frankly I think that's pushing the envelope.  I would never run a CT dust extractor on a 15 amp 120 volt circuit personally and actually would prefer a 30 amp 120 volt circuit.
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Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1037
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2021, 12:41 AM »
Hey Bob, 

I read your DNA reference to my wife, who teaches biology and who also worked for years in a lab doing DNA sequencing work.  She was quite amused and impressed with  the assessment of your genetic makeup.  [big grin] [big grin]


Yes, I have to admit, it's strangely liberating to "let go" of the idea that I must justify every penny I spend and that somehow, each must be attributable to a practical value in the sense that whatever I use the tool for will ultimately pay for itself.

Now add to that the fact I'm a Yorkshireman....and suddenly you'll start to see just how ingrained the word "thrift" is.  I reckon if my genetic code were to be sequenced, about half way down every chromosome, you'd find "tight bastard" hard coded into my DNA!


Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2021, 04:06 AM »
Very kind of you both Rob...please give her my best :-)

Maybe we've accidentally hit on the fundamental genetic reason why Yorkshireman and the Scots are notorious for being thrifty with cash.....its hard wired into our genetic code.  Those early Mendelian geneticists missed a few protein base pairs in their research.  Its not just A, C, G and T.  There's also B-A-S-T-A-R-D too.  If we could only edit that section out, we could become passive, serene and joyful every time we walk into a big toolshop :-) 

Hey Bob, 

I read your DNA reference to my wife, who teaches biology and who also worked for years in a lab doing DNA sequencing work.  She was quite amused and impressed with  the assessment of your genetic makeup.  [big grin] [big grin]


Yes, I have to admit, it's strangely liberating to "let go" of the idea that I must justify every penny I spend and that somehow, each must be attributable to a practical value in the sense that whatever I use the tool for will ultimately pay for itself.

Now add to that the fact I'm a Yorkshireman....and suddenly you'll start to see just how ingrained the word "thrift" is.  I reckon if my genetic code were to be sequenced, about half way down every chromosome, you'd find "tight bastard" hard coded into my DNA!


Offline mino

  • Posts: 514
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2021, 04:31 PM »
Very kind of you both Rob...please give her my best :-)

Maybe we've accidentally hit on the fundamental genetic reason why Yorkshireman and the Scots are notorious for being thrifty with cash.....its hard wired into our genetic code.  Those early Mendelian geneticists missed a few protein base pairs in their research.  Its not just A, C, G and T.  There's also B-A-S-T-A-R-D too.  If we could only edit that section out, we could become passive, serene and joyful every time we walk into a big toolshop :-) 

Actually this is partially true, albeit most of it is cultural.

Societies living in harsh climate historically went through a natural selection that preferred self-control and orderly, planned conduct as this was simply necessary to survive. You can see the same traits in all the Nordics, Russians, etc. etc.

Whereas in mild climates there was less risk of the nature killing you by cold/weather and more risk of other people killing you. So opportunistic, more aggressive and immediate-reaction focused traits were preferred against "self-discipline" traits so critical in harsh climates.

You would probably find more in common traits between the Scotts and the Finns or Russians than you will between them and the (South) English.
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Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 1037
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2021, 06:33 PM »
Good evening Bob

I just read your latest musing to Mrs. Z and she had a solid laugh.  She feels you have a good background and are ready for more research. She suggests you look into something called "CRISPR" as a way to accomplish your goals (her words, not mine).  I asked what is "CRISPR" and got the university-level lecture and quickly had my eyes roll back  [scared] which is an indication that I am ready to move on to something less esoteric  [big grin]. My better half is thrilled when I make gemeli pasta for dinner because it looks like a double helix.  So you can see what gets her interest where I am just happy that my homemade sauce turned out well LOL.


Very kind of you both Rob...please give her my best :-)

Maybe we've accidentally hit on the fundamental genetic reason why Yorkshireman and the Scots are notorious for being thrifty with cash.....its hard wired into our genetic code.  Those early Mendelian geneticists missed a few protein base pairs in their research.  Its not just A, C, G and T.  There's also B-A-S-T-A-R-D too.  If we could only edit that section out, we could become passive, serene and joyful every time we walk into a big toolshop :-) 



[/quote]

Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2021, 06:29 PM »
LOL..  I can sense your better half's passion for genetics.  Funny she should mention CRISPR too because on the main evening news here in the UK, one day last week, there was a report of a small cohort of patients with a rare congenital disease that would likely end up fatal (like M.N.D but I can't remember the name of it).  Scientists have been building on the work started by two exceptional female Nobel prize winners, Doudna and Charpentier to provide an in vivo cure essentially, but by injecting the CRISPR technology into the blood directly.  How on earth it finds its way to the relevant DNA strand, edits out the unwanted base pairs and then repairs it again having begun its journey in their arm is staggeringly brilliant.

So I'm no expert as your Missus clearly is but I do have a degree in biology, hence the interest in the science.  This CRISPR genome editing method is extremely exciting in terms of what it might deliver in the future and the fact it was in the news just this week, curing people of a rare and awful disease where previously there was no hope, is amazing.  Its also a really young technology which I think has reached this already useful position after only a decade or so.  it really does hold real promise of targeting all sorts of errant aspects of our genetic code, including cancer.  Mmm, maybe it could "edit out" my beer belly too!!

Anyway, all the best to you both :-)

Rob

Good evening Bob

I just read your latest musing to Mrs. Z and she had a solid laugh.  She feels you have a good background and are ready for more research. She suggests you look into something called "CRISPR" as a way to accomplish your goals (her words, not mine).  I asked what is "CRISPR" and got the university-level lecture and quickly had my eyes roll back  [scared] which is an indication that I am ready to move on to something less esoteric  [big grin]. My better half is thrilled when I make gemeli pasta for dinner because it looks like a double helix.  So you can see what gets her interest where I am just happy that my homemade sauce turned out well LOL.


Very kind of you both Rob...please give her my best :-)

Maybe we've accidentally hit on the fundamental genetic reason why Yorkshireman and the Scots are notorious for being thrifty with cash.....its hard wired into our genetic code.  Those early Mendelian geneticists missed a few protein base pairs in their research.  Its not just A, C, G and T.  There's also B-A-S-T-A-R-D too.  If we could only edit that section out, we could become passive, serene and joyful every time we walk into a big toolshop :-) 



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Offline Random Orbital Bob

  • Posts: 21
Re: CTL 26 suction not quite what I expected (brand new)
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2021, 06:30 PM »
Yes, that makes perfect evolutionary sense....it may also explain why I like vodka served at minus 5!!

Very kind of you both Rob...please give her my best :-)

Maybe we've accidentally hit on the fundamental genetic reason why Yorkshireman and the Scots are notorious for being thrifty with cash.....its hard wired into our genetic code.  Those early Mendelian geneticists missed a few protein base pairs in their research.  Its not just A, C, G and T.  There's also B-A-S-T-A-R-D too.  If we could only edit that section out, we could become passive, serene and joyful every time we walk into a big toolshop :-) 

Actually this is partially true, albeit most of it is cultural.

Societies living in harsh climate historically went through a natural selection that preferred self-control and orderly, planned conduct as this was simply necessary to survive. You can see the same traits in all the Nordics, Russians, etc. etc.

Whereas in mild climates there was less risk of the nature killing you by cold/weather and more risk of other people killing you. So opportunistic, more aggressive and immediate-reaction focused traits were preferred against "self-discipline" traits so critical in harsh climates.

You would probably find more in common traits between the Scotts and the Finns or Russians than you will between them and the (South) English.